.45-70Govt load class question

[Mgderf]

I want to load for a brand new H&R Handi-Rifle in .45-70Govt.
I find 3 load classes listed. Springfield Trapdoor, Marlin Lever, and Ruger No.1 & 3.

Which class do I consider the Handi-Rifle?
Will it stand up to the Ruger loads, or do I want to stay with the Marlin lever loads?

Any help would be appreciated.

[Bohica793]

I load mine to Trapdoor levels and find those more than sufficient for my needs. My understanding it that it is fine with Lever loads, but I am not certain of Ruger level loads.

[Mk42gunner]

Welcome aboard.

The newer H&R's on the rifle frame are supposed to be pretty strong, but they are also pretty light. I do not know just how strong they are, but I believe recoil will be the limiting factor; just as it is with a Ruger No. 1 or 3.

At one time I had a Ruger No. 1-S in .45-70 and had to try some of what I call "Elmer Keith Memorial Loads" which were a Speer 405 gr JSP over a lot (don't have my notes handy) of 3031. They shot well, but I decided there really wasn't anything I was that mad at that I would use that rifle on, plus the lower level loads shot just as well for plinking in the desert.

Do some shooting first before you jump onto the 'I need the most powerful load' wagon, you might be satisfied with level one or two loads.

Good luck,

Robert

[1Shirt]

You will most likely find trapdoor loads, more than adequate, and I recommend starting loads and working up.
1Shirt!

[Mumblypeg]

What MK42gunner said.... and I think you shoulder will tell you when enough is enough. I had a Ruger #3 in 45-70..... the light loads were just fine.... I shot two hopped up loads.... that was enough!

[Mgderf]

Welcome aboard.

The newer H&R's on the rifle frame are supposed to be pretty strong, but they are also pretty light. I do not know just how strong they are, but I believe recoil will be the limiting factor; just as it is with a Ruger No. 1 or 3.

At one time I had a Ruger No. 1-S in .45-70 and had to try some of what I call "Elmer Keith Memorial Loads" which were a Speer 405 gr JSP over a lot (don't have my notes handy) of 3031. They shot well, but I decided there really wasn't anything I was that mad at that I would use that rifle on, plus the lower level loads shot just as well for plinking in the desert.

Do some shooting first before you jump onto the 'I need the most powerful load' wagon, you might be satisfied with level one or two loads.

Good luck,

Robert

Robert,
Thanks for the input.
I'm not really THAT mad at anything in particular. LOL.
I fully understand that lesser loads will do just fine for most of my shooting applications.
The Handi-Rifle probably won't see anything more than plinking for fun and hunting whitetail deer.

I have a friend that is into casting his own boolits so I decided to become an enabler to him.
I picked up a couple of sets of Lee molds in .45-70, one in 405gr RNFP and another set in 500gr Spitzer point.

I've never been one to shy away from recoil. Then again, I'm not a glutton for punishment either.
I have another Handi-Rifle in .500S&W magnum so I think I have some idea of what to expect.

I have only recently delved into the realm of reloading, and so far, I've enjoyed reading everything I can find on the subject.
To date, I have successfully loaded .32S&W Long, .38spl, .45acp, .45Colt, and a couple of Marlin load .45-70's.

I'm trying REAL hard to take my time, learning what I can along the way.
There is a LOT more involved in reloading than I first assumed.

I've purchased and read, the ABC's of reloading, Lyman's 49th edition, Modern Reloading by Richard Lee...
I've also picked up a couple of older Speer manuals (#'s 11 & 12), and a couple of the Hodgdon publications.

So much to learn...

[Duckiller]

Load to Trapdoor level, your shoulder will appreciate it.

[tdoyka]

i would load to trapdoor levels, maybe a skosh higher(light lever gun levels). after all...



your shoulder will appreciate it.

[oldred]

As said load to trapdoor level if you value your shoulder, however Marlin 1895 loads are just fine.

Now, DON'T DO THIS!!!!! BUT I know one fellow who loads to Ruger no.1 pressures and beyond! I would not shoot that thing on a dare with his ammo but he does and has been doing so for a long time, he thinks it's funny and just loves to have an unsuspecting shooter get stomped by the recoil. Personally I think what he's doing is nothing short of stupid and this kind of behavior is the sort of thing we often read about and end up trying to figure out exactly what happened. The reason I am telling you about this is that what he's doing is a testament to the strength of those rifles, he has shot a great many rounds that I think anyone here would agree are gross overloads for that rifle but so far it does not seem to be harmed in the least! I saw this rifle last fall during deer season when he hunted with it on my farm, I joked about him still being in one piece to hunt but he just jokingly called me sissy and laughed about it, I will not be surprised if this eventually catches up with him but that rifle enduring that kind of punishment without even shooting loose has sure made a believer out of me!

Again, I am NOT in any way suggesting that kind of abuse is ok and in fact I firmly believe it to be very dangerous still it proves that the design is a strong one and that particular rifle has been strong indeed!

[Mgderf]

...I am NOT in any way suggesting that kind of abuse is ok and in fact I firmly believe it to be very dangerous still it proves that the design is a strong one and that particular rifle has been strong indeed!

Oh, believe me, I'm NOT one to try experimenting. I'll gladly leave that to others that know more than I, or think they do anyway.
I have no desire to push the envelope, which is precisely why I posted the questions.
I really do appreciate everyone's input.

I do enjoy a good recoil, but I absolutely abhor injuries!

[oldred]

Marlin loads should be perfectly ok and if the rifle is setup right recoil should be manageable, depends on how much fun you want to have! :razz:

I thought that it might be comforting to know that there is apparently a very hefty safety margin with these rifles, if the design can stand the type of abuse that particular rifle has undergone then you should have no worries at all with what you are proposing. Have fun and enjoy that thing!

[EDG]

I am sure you will be more than satisfied with 1100 to 1300 fps that you get with Trapdoor loads.
The 300 grain bullets at that speed have enough recoil to make you think you are shooting a real gun.
The 500 grain bullets are more accurate but will beat you up with a light rifle.

[Mgderf]

Thanks for the input folks.
It looks like my Handi-Rifle is 7lbs. Not a brick by any means, but it does have a really nice recoil pad.
So far all the factory offerings are no more than a good push to the shoulder, but no SLAM.

[thegatman]

I use Trailboss and the 70% rule with 400 grain bullets and it shoots just fine. Why kill your shoulder and brass. The H & R's are pretty strong with a SB2 frame.

[Wayne Smith]

Save your pennies for a 457122 Gould HP and go deer hunting. That's what it was originally designed for.

[nicholst55]

The NEF Handi-Rifle is suitable, strength-wise, for Ruger-Only loads. I have that from the factory, back before Remington absorbed them. They at least used to chamber that same action for .500 S&W; that should speak volumes for it's strength. One of the makers of premium ammo (Buffalo Bore?) endorses the Handi for their .45-70 '+P' ammo, as well.

Your shoulder will be screaming for you to stop long before the rifle shows the strain!

[Mgderf]

The NEF Handi-Rifle is suitable, strength-wise, for Ruger-Only loads. I have that from the factory, back before Remington absorbed them. They at least used to chamber that same action for .500 S&W; that should speak volumes for it's strength. One of the makers of premium ammo (Buffalo Bore?) endorses the Handi for their .45-70 '+P' ammo, as well.

Your shoulder will be screaming for you to stop long before the rifle shows the strain!

I reckon I should have guessed as much.
I have another Handi-Rifle in .500S&W magnum.

[rfd]

loading for the .45-70 will depend on its purposeful use. for targets, particularly long range at 200 to 1000 yards and longer, there is no question that heavy lead alloy boolits (400 to 550 grains) travelling slow (trap door speeds of 1000 to 1400fps) are the way to go. those kinda cartridges will pretty much kill any critter on our continent, too, as our 19th century american bison found out. if the boolits are gas checked or jacketed, much higher lever gun velocities can be achieved, but imho i see no specific need to go beyond trap door speeds. though those h&r handi .45-70 receivers can take 'em with no problems, i won't even comment on those insane howitzer ruger loads, yikes!?

[tsubaki]

The Handi Rifle will handle it.
I started off with some 300gr JHP's at about 2100fps, the recoil was insane. The rainbow trajectory aggravated me so I also tried some 300gr Barnes SP thinking the pointed bullet would help but it was to no avail. Even shot the guts out of a Tasco World Class trying to site it in.
Ended up backing off to about 1900fps, put a Burris Ballistic Plex scope and rings on it.
I'm now fine with the rainbow trajectory and am considering moving to a 405 cast when I run out of my jacketed stuff.

[oldred]

The Handi Rifle will handle it.
I started off with some 300gr JHP's at about 2100fps, the recoil was insane. The rainbow trajectory aggravated me so I also tried some 300gr Barnes SP thinking the pointed bullet would help but it was to no avail. Even shot the guts out of a Tasco World Class trying to site it in.
Ended up backing off to about 1900fps, put a Burris Ballistic Plex scope and rings on it.
I'm now fine with the rainbow trajectory and am considering moving to a 405 cast when I run out of my jacketed stuff.


This is what occurred to me years ago with my 45/70 Marlin, it's no 220 Swift and it will never be no matter how heavy I loaded it! The thing is that rainbow trajectory is always going to be there and while it can be flattened some at the expense of brutal recoil it will never flatten out enough to be worth the abuse to both the firearm and the shoulder, for hunting game on the receiving end simply won't know the difference. The bottom line is that rainbow trajectory is just the nature of the beast and will have to be dealt with regardless so just tame the beast and shooting it will be far more enjoyable!

[rfd]

so true on all accounts, oldred. these olde tyme .45 cartridges just work best slow 'n' heavy. attempting to go much past 1400fps or so defeats their inherent accuracy and can provide unnecessary recoil (that will affect consistency). they really do work best (consistent accuracy and reasonable recoil) with high lead/low tin alloy heavy boolits and either black powder or with specific smokeless powders (aa5744, sr4759) that recreate (to a good degree) black powder results with those 400 to 550 grain boolits. in the last few years, and aside from my flintlock rifles, i've sold off all my cartridge rifles in favor of rolling block and sharps style actioned single shots in, of course, the .45-70 cartridge. life's still good. 8-)

[40-82 hiker]

+1 on AA5744 (24.2grs.) with 405gr. boolit - my TD load

rfd, I agree. Something about that cartridge and those rifles...

[dlbarr]

I have duplicated several loads from Paul Matthews book, Forty Years with the 45/70.

It is my opinion that Mr. Matthews believes in going to the line (maybe a little beyond) in more than a few instances. He shot both the Ruger #1 & #3 and the Marlin 1895. I have shot his Ruger loads out of my HandiRifle but don't plan on repeating that in the near future. I also have the 1895 and those loads are manageable in the HR IMO.

Certainly, the trapdoor loads are acceptable in your HR 45/70.

[Ramjet-SS]

I love the mid range loads but my favorite is the Gould style HP bullet at 1400 FPS just a outstanding load for deer and elk within 100 yards. I just picked up a new clearance Stainless Prohunter BBL 24" 45-70 for my Encore cannot not wait to load up some 330 Grain HP over good dose of new Unique and shoot some water jugs.......

[rfd]

as with most any rifle that has some amount of perceived recoil, the butt stock configuration and amenities can always make shooting even more pleasant. dependent on the model, .45-70 handi's will have either a shotgun style butt end, with either a plastic or vented rubber end cap, or as in the buff classic the butt end is a crescent with a steel cap (ouch!). for any of these, adding a slip-on recoil butt stock pad will help to tame the hurt, or make an already easy-on-the-shoulder recoil mo' better yet. i use a kick killer butt pad on my .45-70's ...

http://i.imgur.com/7TwdyNe.jpg

[oldred]

That Sharps rifle is outstanding, love that wood color and grip/end caps! Who's the maker of that one?

[Mgderf]

This is the rifle in question.
Not mine, but identical to it.
www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=470047518 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=470047518)
Note the obvious recoil pad.
I have shot a few factory offerings with no ill affects regarding recoil and accuracy is outstanding right out of the box.

Really sad to see H&R dropping the Handi-Rifle line.
They made fine rifles and I wish I had one of every caliber they offered.

[rfd]

oldred - that '74 sharps replica was built by chiappa arms and branded by cimarron. listed as a "usa team creedmoor sharps", 500 were made, mine is #58. the fit and finish of wood and metal are extremely exceptional as compared to a usa shiloh or c.sharps, the action and receiver are cnc block machined and the barrel is of "match grade". i've been extremely happy with its durability and accuracy. i bought it for the stupid price tag of $1050/shipped last fall off grabagun. i see both the price has increased and it's out of stock with most online vendors, typically about $1300 (or more). two thumbs up from me.

mgderf - it isn't that the handi line has been dropped, it's all of h&r that's getting the boot, according to remington.

[brad925]

I have been reloading the 45-70 for many years. And have tried the mild to wild. Take my advice and just load them to the best accuracy and you will find yourself in that 1100 -1400 fps range. This with cast bullets anyway. The 45-70 is a freight train not a ferrari.

[rfd]

I have been reloading the 45-70 for many years. And have tried the mild to wild. Take my advice and just load them to the best accuracy and you will find yourself in that 1100 -1400 fps range. This with cast bullets anyway. The 45-70 is a freight train not a ferrari.

could not have said it better, sir.

[John Boy]

Trapdoor Loads - you'll be able to shoot 1000yds with them!
Loading data at end of website ... http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html

[oldred]

Trapdoor Loads - you'll be able to shoot 1000yds with them!
Loading data at end of website ... http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html


As was in fact done for many years!

[John Boy]

Was even further - 45-70 at 2 Miles - The Sandy Hook Trials
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/843705/posts

[swatts1555]

May I please ask a question. Is there anyone that can tell me the model number for a RCBS top punch for a .458 die, pointed 500 grain bullet for the 45-70. I have looked and only find either rounded or flat top punch. I am new at this , and this site. Any help will be appreciated.

[John Boy]

Swatts, if you have another top punch, use it to make one for the RCBS your looking for ...
** pour hot glue into the top punch cavity. Take the pointed bullet and spit on the nose. Twist the nose into the cavity with the hot glue. Remove the bullet and you have the TP that you are looking for