S&W Maintenance

[Jeff82]

I have been thinking about investing in an S&W shop manual and trying to do minor gunsmithing and occasional cleaning of the actions on my heavy use revolvers. I'm wondering if this is best left to a gunsmith or if regular mortals can successfully attempt this. I do this type of work on my Marlin 1894 and I once rebuilt an 1873 Springfield carbine. I'm intimidated by opening up an S&W though.

Any thoughts.

[bobthenailer]

Get a book/shop manual on S&W revolvers by Jerry Kuhnhausen ! try Brownells

[44man]

They are pretty easy to work on but make sure you use the best screwdrivers. They don't get very dirty but lightly lubing is a good idea.

[justashooter]

a digital camera photo of the internals after sideplate removal and before disassembly is a real help for first time S&W tinkerers. i have the shop manuals, but a real picture was better than any shop manual. smiths are not hard to work on, if you have a good parts source. so many different models, and hand fitting if you get into the older guns. good screwdrivers and a plastic mallet, some small diameter drift punches, a pair of hemostats.

[Mk42gunner]

It really isn't that hard to take a S&W revolver apart, or to put it back together. The one thing that was stressed when I went to armorer's school was not to pry the sideplate off, but to vibrate it off by striking the grip frame.

I will second buying a book, it is easier to have written instructions and pictures in front of you while doing this.

Robert

[18Bravo]

Agree with all of the above. Smith's are pretty straight forward with a few exceptions. the rebound spring can be tricky but there's a great video from Jerry Miculek on Youtube where he uses a cheap Bic pen to re-install the spring. My biggest aggravation is getting the hammer block aligned with its slot in the side cover for reassembly. I find that just a very light touch of graphite helps hold the block in the side cover slot keeping it from moving around and getting out of alignment. Older models don't have this part so it may not be an issue with your revolvers.

[JWFilips]

Jeff82....PM sent

[bhn22]

The first one is always the hardest. They get easier to deal with every time.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Cleaning S&W pistols and installing reduced spring kits in these same revolvers was how I got extra spending money in my pocket while running an indoor PPC/pistol range. People were terrified to even attempt to do the cleaning job after watching me do several other pistols. The trigger rebound spring is fun to chase after especially on a dark colored concrete floor where it blends in color wise. A simple pocket screwdriver with the blade tip ground 3/4 off leaving only a "tooth" of the bit is what I used to install these "jumpy" springs.Robert

[Petrol & Powder]

I agree with the prior posts. If you're reasonably mechanically inclined, it's not difficult. Get the correct screwdrivers, never pry the side plate off. The rebound spring is not that difficult once you get the hang of it; sort of like the mainspring housing on a Ruger .22 pistol - once you understand it you never have to think about it again.

[Jeff82]

Maybe I'll look around for a junker and try to hone my skills on that.

[Char-Gar]

Smith and Wesson DA sixguns are pretty easy to work on. The only tricky part is removing and replacing the little coil spring in the trigger return block. They can jump across the room into the "spring black hole" is you are not careful. Brownells sells a neat little tool for this or you can make one by grinding a cheap screw driver.

The book is a good one. I have it.

[skeettx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVsqyuM_5oo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1mEJgWyea8

And a bunch more, just look and enjoy

I use a wooden hammer handle to tap on the frame (the grip) to loosen the side plate
and I have the side plate on TOP so it does not fall off the frame.

Mike

[lbaize3]

Hey, if I can do it, you can do it. Get the references above and get after it. After a time or two you will become and old pro too....

[bluelund79]

Great links. Still haven't gotten the nerve to completely disassemble my Smith yet. Looks like that's the bump in the right direction I needed

[tygar]

They are flat easy. It is also a snap to trick them up. Stoning or polishing the triggers, hammers, trigger spring housing, face plate are no problem, just look at the flat sides. You don't need more the a screw driver of the right size to remove the screws. I just use a dab of the same lubriplate I've used since the 60s & its good to go.

You can also help the DA pull by first backing out the main spring screw until you won't set off primers. I use CCI for testing as they are the hardest. Then screw it back in 1/2 turn for safety margin.

Then take the trigger coil spring and file a little at a time. This is more iffy unless you've done it a few times. Just have a spare in case. I can usually tell by how it pulls & some times just use nippers to cut some off, then file smooth.

After it feels right, run a bunch of rounds to ensure proper function. If it's a little light, screw the main spring screw in a little. When you know it's right mark the main spring screw & file it down so it fits flush.

You can really smooth out S&W actions.

You don't need instructions there is only like 6 parts.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Through more than a few years shooting "bullseye" and PPC shooting I found as I`m sure many others did also that Federal primers were the easiest to ignite. By being the easier to set off this equated to setting a lighter DA trigger pull setting. I simply would adjust the DA screw setting till I was experiencing misfires with Federal primed loads then slowly worked the pull back up till I had certain fire strikes. With factory loads I would set the strike heavier according to what make ammo I was using. All of this "trigger work" was done on my well smoothed in S&W Model 14.Robert

[tja6435]

I have the Brownell's tool for the hammer block/trigger rebound spring. It's worth the $20, could pay for itself with never losing a rebound spring again.

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't like to modify the strain screw that secures the mainspring. I prefer to re-arch the mainspring or replace it with a wolff spring. Reducing the mainspring weight can reduce the pull weight but it also increases the lock time. You can safely cut a few coils from the trigger return spring or replace it with a lighter spring but remember that comes with the cost of slower trigger reset. Those two springs work together and they both affect the trigger pull weight. Everything is a compromise, there is no free lunch.
A smooth trigger action beats a light trigger every time, so go easy when playing with springs. Some judicious polishing can pay off more than cutting springs and grinding screws. Think before you act.

[44man]

Primers that barely go "bang" is the worst thing for accuracy you can do. Primers need the right amount of impact to work proper.
Shooting IHMSA during the year would see my accuracy fall off big time, springs taking a set on my Rugers. I bought springs by the pack and as soon as things went to pot I would replace them until I bought Wolfe over power variable springs.
Had too many S&W's here that had the strain screws filed off and refused to even fire. They need fixed or replaced, leave the thing alone. They are NOT adjustments, they are to hold the spring in place where it belongs.
Cutting the rebound slide spring will slow trigger return and too much will not reset the trigger at all, replace with a lighter, FASTER spring.

[Jeff82]

Anybody fixed a canted barrel? That's a problem with my Model-14. Easy to do or easy to screw up?

[Petrol & Powder]

If it really is canted the fix is simple in concept and rather difficult in execution. Depending on which way it is canted the fix is either; unscrew the barrel from the frame, mill a little off of the shoulder, re-install the barrel and tighten, re-set the barrel/cylinder gap OR
unscrew the barrel from the frame, set the shoulder back 1 thread, re-install the barrel and reset the B/C gap and maybe recut the forcing cone. All of that is work for a competent machinist/gunsmith and not something most folks are equipped to do. Not impossible but rather involved.

[captaint]

Then there's the pin. IF it's a pinned barrel. Agreed about the strain screw. Most anybody on the S&W board would tell us to leave it alone.

[MtGun44]

Buy or make a trigger rebound spring installation tool (not too complicated) and you
will be OK if you are a careful worker and keep the dremel tool and files away.

One tip - NEVER, EVER, EVER do ANYTHING to the trigger nose or hammer notches
in a S&W revolver. These are extremely tiny and extremely difficult to get right,
and if the gun is clean, lubed and has good springs, it will be smooth. I can do
a 2 lb trigger that is perfect, crisp and will last forever on a 1911, which folks claim
is unsafe and impossible, etc. It is not hard if you can do good fine work. That said, I would
never even consider fiddling with the trigger nose or hammer notches on any
of my S&W revolvers, and they literally never need it, only polishing the inside
flats in the frame, perhaps on the rebound slide (very rarely) and spring
changes, and good lube.

Barrel is easy with a lathe. Remove bbl, turn off about .001 from back face
and then reinstall. By hand, you can VERY carefully file off .001 from the
barrel shoulder with a safe-edged file to protect the threads and do the
same. Good frame supporting blocks are a must to remove bbl, can be made
of oak if you are willing to work at it, but not quick and easy.

Bill

[Petrol & Powder]

And I'll reiterate that the strain screw is not an adjustment screw for the mainspring.
Mtn. Gun is right, stay away from the sear surfaces on the hammer & trigger.

I don't think it has been mentioned but the screws that hold the sideplate on have the same threads but are not interchangeable. On older guns the screw that holds the yoke in place was fitting to the yoke. The newer ones have a spring loaded detent in the screw. The screw under the grip has a flat head and the other screw often has a rounded head. Put them back in the same hole you took them out of.

I've never found the rebound spring (trigger return spring) to be difficult to remove/install but some people do seem to struggle with it a bit. You kind of get a hang for it after a few times and don't even think about it after that.

The OP wants to be able to remove the sideplate, clean, lubricate and reassemble; that's a good place to start with S&W's. It should be noted that although the revolver can be disassembled, it is not something that should be done frequently. They are made to be serviced when needed but not routinely disassembled and reassembled. One doesn't "field strip" a S&W revolver every time it is used.

They're not as intimidating as some would lead you to believe.

[Thin Man]

If you can find a local armorer or gunsmith who has a background in the S&W revolvers, ask him to walk you through the process so you can see what is done. Take note of the specialty tools that help with the chore, and the tools that are generic that would have other applications. If you have any older S&W's, note that their manufacturing process is like all others firearm manufacturers - they have changed their internal mechanics over time. You will learn language such as long action v. short action, right or left hand threads on the ejector rod housing, and so on. The hand spring in the trigger is different now than it way not that far back. And the list goes on. The more exposure you get from looking inside the different ages (generations) of these revolvers will convince you about this. With a bit of experience your confidence will improve. Learn and progress at your comfortable rate, and never refuse to ask questions when in doubt.

[44man]

Many good answers and the sear surfaces have never been a problem. I had several new X frames apart and I am pleased with the quality of the parts today. Same geometry though and same kind of springs that may or may not be kind under recoil. Hammer rebound from primer internal pressure and the cylinder stop unlocking but all in all, I was impressed with the parts quality.
Problems seem intermittent, my friend has an X frame in .500 and it is a light gun with none of the big under lugs or brake, kicks like a wild mule but it has held lockup.
The S&W is a fine revolver and most problems have been springs. recoil is a factor because of inertia of parts but they are strong and can take normal pressures for the cartridge, even the old ones. Once you inspect one, you learn quickly how they work.
I seen where someone put the hammer block into the plate, that is wrong, put it on the pin and then install the plate. The block will go into the slot. I have never needed any special tools, just a good screw driver set.
It always reminds me of the Ruger Mark I, II and III, posts up the length of the Panama Canal about how hard they are. But once you see, they can be put together with a blindfold. The design of the gun is just amazing and I still question how it was designed before computers.
Do not fear a S&W.

[tygar]

All the new springs etc. are nice & may work better. They were not avail. back then, but cutting the return spring & filing the mainspring screw was how it was done back in the 60s & still works today. Just do as they taught back then as I said. ( change springs if u want) That is secondary to polishing the inner works. THat Is what makes it slick.

This is NOT a hard gun to work on or slick up. It is plain easy.

Dave Ransberger the USMC armorer in the 50-60s taught me on these & the 1911, another easy gun.

[mogwan]

First off, anyone advocating using the mainspring strain screw as a trigger pull weight/hammer fall needs his head examined. the screw should never be backed out or ground down. This will result in a lighter trigger pull- however, do it and see the result of hammer push off in single action mode. I have seen guns 'hammer drop' by just bumping a supporting table. Great for unintended discharges. Hammers should be able to resist approx. 15-18lb pressure w/o push off. Also, the ONLY spring that should be clipped (if lowering the tension is desired) is the cylinder thumb release spring. And remember, when you take a stone or file to a hammer or trigger sear surface there is ONLY .005" (yes-five one-thousandths of an inch) that is case hardened. Go any further and the part is garbage unless you have the knowledge and equipment to re-harden.

Jerry Miculek has a DVD for tuning S&W revolvers.Not only is he a great shooter, he is an excellent teacher. Watch the DVD and you will understand what and why you are doing something. My 'range' revolvers are set at approx. alb single/8lb double action. However I use Federal primers exclusively when reloading. these guns would be a disaster & danger if using CCI (the hardest available vs Federal, the softest) so DO NOT screw around with spring weights, etc. on your CCW or home defines guns. a CCW should not have a 2lb/8lb trigger pull- and a home defense gun should be loaded with factory produced defines loads that most probably WILL NOT be manufactured with Federal Primers and will need approx. 4+ lb for reliable ignition.

Khunhausen's Book on gunsmithing the S&W revolvers will most probably be 'over the heads' of most casual kitchen table 'smiths. As far as tools, buy a Brownells screwbit handle, box, the set of S&W bits, and the rebound spring bit. you may want to add the rear sight screw collet tightener (looks like a tiny meat fork) but they break easily and unless you do sight work, not necessary.

Don't Forget: your CCW or home defense Revolver is to save your life- not a hobby.

There were Very Few modifications made by FBI / Police Armorers in the day S&W wheel guns were standard issue. About the only thing done by FBI was to polish & chamfer cylinder holes and 'stake' the ratchet pins into the cylinder. There is not tool available to do this so i machined my own- but not necessary on newer generation S&W's with pin-less ratchet/ejectors. Also- Avoid Dry Firing these revolvers when the sideplate is off. the sideplate supports the hammer/trigger posts. these are only pressed in and peened to the frame. if they come loose from reciprocating forces/spring tensions exerted when the trigger is pulled, you will have a big problem.

[44man]

Mogwan, extremely good post. I hope folks listen to your knowledge.

[Petrol & Powder]

I agree with most of post #29 by Mogwan. The strain screw is not there for adjustment and I know it was a common practice to shorten that screw in an effort to reduce tension on the mainspring but that is not a good practice.
As for never modifying springs I disagree slightly. It is acceptable to cut a few coils off of the rebound spring and this was even sanctioned by S&W trained armorers. IIRC 17 coils is the minimum number of coils allowed for a K frame rebound spring. Reducing the weight of the rebound spring is a double edged sword; it reduces the DA pull weight but it also decreases the trigger reset force. You can replace the rebound spring or carefully remove a few coils. The advantage of replacing it is that you can always put the factory spring back in. Tread lightly when playing with that.
Mogwan is absolutely correct that guns used for self defense should be set up for reliability first. It needs to go bang when you want it to every time and only when you want it to.

[Mal Paso]

Brownells has a Rebound Spring assortment for under $10.

http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/trigger-group-parts/trigger-parts/trigger-springs/s-w-reduced-power-rebound-spring-prod16530.aspx

I have a very solid 2 1/4 pound SA trigger using a reduced power rebound and Factory mainspring, screw tight.

The S&W revolver ***s I see at the range are the mainspring screw or ejector rod coming loose.

[44man]

Same with the SA. Many reduce the hammer springs but that is wrong for accuracy. Some say lock time but that is also wrong, it is primer impact that counts so a faster hammer spring CAN hit hard too but to cut the factory spring will result in poor accuracy. Ruger springs are the worst. They will set to over 1/2" shorter with use.
Factory springs on the BH's and SBH's average 23# but soon get less. I use 26# wolfe variables now. I get triggers to 1-1/2# but need a transfer bar long enough to cover the pin so I have made my own. If the trigger kicks forward at sear break you can have the bar drop below the pin. My SBH WILL kick my finger but my bar is still on the pin. I have the BFR 45-70 down to 19 oz with a new, hand made transfer bar.
At no time will I reduce the hammer spring for any reason. All my guns use OVER POWER hammer SPRINGS.
DA is still a thing to consider but you still need a quick trigger reset and a hammer impact. You CAN cut the rebound spring but when you realize just 1/4 coil can stop reset, you should worry.
I went through it all with grinding the hammer springs to cutting the rebound springs. At times it still worked but today I leave it alone. At no time did messing with the strain screw work. That screw is there so you can take the gun apart.

[Jeff82]

Out of curiosity does anyone know why the most recently produced Model-14 uses a leaf spring instead of a coil spring?

[skeettx]

Jeff,
I need more data. Do you have a Model 14 with a coil spring?

The Model 14 has always used a leaf spring to my knowledge
The K frames always did

Now the J frame uses a coil spring.

Mike

p.s. I graduated Whitewater High School, Whitewater, Wisconsin 1967 :)

[Jeff82]

Skeettx,

No, my Model 14 doesn't have a coil spring. I was just wondering why they used leaf springs in the K-frames.

p.s. I went through ROTC at UW-Whitewater and my wife is from Fort Atkinson.

[skeettx]

My Dad taught Accounting and Tax at UW-Whitewater
and I will not tell you what I did in Fort. :)

Mike

[Char-Gar]

Lots of folks seem to have lots of different opinions about tuning up a Smith & Wesson DA sixgun, so why not one more.

I have been working on these guns for almost 50 years now and have come to some conclusions based on good and bad experiences. For years I messed with the springs in the ways folks have described in the posts. What it amounts to is putting artificial and premature wear on the springs. An S&W will just get smoother and smoother with use as the parts and springs wear in. In due time, it will be smooth and slick.

All things mechanical will fail sooner or later and so will the springs. The more artificial wear you put on them in what is called "tuning" the sooner it will happen. I guess that is OK in a range or fun gun, but not OK for a gun used for social purposes. The gun will work just fine up to that one time you pull the trigger and it goes click or clunk instead of boom.

For the past 25 years, I don't mess with the screws at all. I just lube the handgun and shoot it, and then shoot it some more. In the normal course of events, you will have a fine smooth sixgun.

[Joni Lynn]

Lots of really good info in this thread.
If I can take one apart then I figure any of you can do like wise and be good at it in short order.
Model 14 K frame and even the older model it came from were leaf spring. J frame and transitional I frames are coil spring.
Get a really good set of hollow ground screwdrivers and the recoil spring tool and then just be sure to put the screws back where they came from.
Again.............good info in this thread!

[44man]

Nothing wrong with a leaf spring at all. They can hold tension real good. Some still work over 100 years old. Just leave them alone.

[dubber123]

Lots of really good info in this thread.
If I can take one apart then I figure any of you can do like wise and be good at it in short order.
Model 14 K frame and even the older model it came from were leaf spring. J frame and transitional I frames are coil spring.
Get a really good set of hollow ground screwdrivers and the recoil spring tool and then just be sure to put the screws back where they came from.
Again.............good info in this thread!

Joni as usual knows her stuff :)

[Joni Lynn]

Thanks. I appreciate the good thoughts.
One additional mention. The sideplate screws all need to be properly tightened, not to the extreme but don't shoot the gun with a loose screw. The sideplate contributes to the strength of the frame while you're shooting it, one or more loose screws would allow flex in the frame and if continued, then metal fatigue.
I have a 38/44 Outdoorsman from 1950 that I learned to take apart and put together. I did it until I had it down. (it's a 5 screw model)

[Patrick56]

Remember the ejector rod. It has left hand threads and and should be opened using a piece of leather in the pliers to protect the rod. Do not leave it loose when re-installed as it can unscrew and hung up the cylinder.

[44man]

Remember the ejector rod. It has left hand threads and and should be opened using a piece of leather in the pliers to protect the rod. Do not leave it loose when re-installed as it can unscrew and hung up the cylinder.
An old drill collet works great. I never toss them when a drill goes bad. Works super for a deburr tool too.

[Joni Lynn]

I seem to remember that a number of year ago the ejector rod had a standard thread but I don't recall when the change to left handed thread was made. If I wasn't so lazy today I would go look it up. I'll try to get back with the info later on.

[Patrick56]

I seem to remember that a number of year ago the ejector rod had a standard thread but I don't recall when the change to left handed thread was made. If I wasn't so lazy today I would go look it up. I'll try to get back with the info later on.
I had to check it myself, as it is some years since I worked with my 66.:oops:

[C.F.Plinker]

The ejector rod threading was changed from right hand to left hand thread in the late 1950s to early 1960s depending on the model. For instance the model 10 was changed in 1961 and the model 15 was changed in 1959.

The rods with left hand threads have a line cut in the rod just behind the knurling.

[Joni Lynn]

Thanks, I didn't know about that line on the rod. So then, the new ones have the line while the older ones don't?
Another thing I remember about taking the ejector rod out is that you should place one or two empty case in the chambers to support the extractor while you twist on things. It'll help to prevent damage to little things like the two extractor star alignment pins.

[C.F.Plinker]

Thanks, I didn't know about that line on the rod. So then, the new ones have the line while the older ones don't?


Correct. However, I suppose that there could always be the oddball exception.

[jonp]

I recently bought a 15-4. It had big problems with lock up and timing. Its the first one I took apart to clean but I watched a couple of youtube videos I decided to try it. I doused the sideplate in kroil, let it sit then took out the screws and banged it against my hand. Several raps and it popped off. Removing the insides, cleaning them carefully and putting them back in was not hard. Some oil and im lettting it brake itself in.

If I can you can

[dubber123]

Thanks, I didn't know about that line on the rod. So then, the new ones have the line while the older ones don't?
Another thing I remember about taking the ejector rod out is that you should place one or two empty case in the chambers to support the extractor while you twist on things. It'll help to prevent damage to little things like the two extractor star alignment pins.

Another worthy note from Joni. The empty cases in the cylinder prevent shearing off the small pins that align the star. It's a bad day all around if that happens

[Petrol & Powder]

[QUOTE=C.F.Plinker;3203259.............

The rods with left hand threads have a line cut in the rod just behind the knurling.[/QUOTE]

Well there's a good tidbit of knowledge! Thank You!

[Petrol & Powder]

I place empty cartridge casings in ALL of the charge holes before removing or installing the ejector rod. Bad things can happen if that extractor slips when tightening/loosening the ejector rod. I'm sure two casings would be plenty but 4 more casings costs nothing and makes me feel better.

[44man]

Reason for the left hand threads was torque from the twist that loosened the right hand threads.

[Mal Paso]

Remember the ejector rod. It has left hand threads and and should be opened using a piece of leather in the pliers to protect the rod. Do not leave it loose when re-installed as it can unscrew and hung up the cylinder.

The front end of the inner shaft can peen against the spring loaded forward lock up pin in the heavier recoiling Smiths. Had that happen up twice.

My 629 was 2nd hand and after a while it wouldn't hold cock in single action. That was my permission to enter. The gun had a freehand trigger job. The trigger side of the sear was rounded off square and it had been holding cock with an extra heavy rebound spring pushing the trigger into the hammer. I used a Power Custom Series 1 stand to restore the factory angle on the trigger. The gun is well broken in and an 11 or 12 lb rebound spring is plenty for a solid 2 1/4 SA trigger .... for years now

I did wear out the timing. Groups really open up when the cylinder isn't aligned with the barrel. Off center primer strikes are a red flag for me now. Brownells sells an aftermarket hand that is both longer and wider. Beats the Smith hand which is just wider. Nothing will get me to file the timing window bigger.

I had a MIM firing pin fail. The tip cratered causing it to stick in the primer/lock up the gun. A toutch up with a nail file kept me shooting until new pins arrived from Brownells. I complained about MIM here and got a reply that the fancy machined pins will just snap when they fail. I had ordered both. The MIM pin went in the gun, the fancy machined pin went into the grip as spare. Some years ago.

[cajun shooter]

Being a former POST FIREARMS INSTRUCTOR AND ARMORER who attended 5 S&W schools, Sig, Glock, Ruger, Remington and Ithaca armorer schools I can't believe some of the postings in this thread. It's a good thing that these people are not working on any Police weapons or we could have some dead people to discuss.
We had a guy in the Baton Rouge, La. area that was such a butcher on guns that he worked on at all of the gun shows that I finally was able to have a order passed about him. We had so many cops letting this guy touch the departments duty guns and also the off duty guns they carried that it became a crisis. All officers were ordered to report to the range to have their guns checked by us.
The next biggest problem was cops who believe that the very moment they receive the commission, they are also gunsmiths and able to perform what I call, kitchen table gunsmithing.
To answer the question about the extractor rod, they make a special tool that is inserted into the chambers when you tighten this rod up. If you don't have this tool, then you don't use empty hulls. You should use no less than 3 loaded dummy rounds, a case loaded with a bullet minus the powder and primer.
I've seen several S&W's that had to be sent to the factory because of persons prying off the side covers. Once bent, you can't repair this revolver.
I didn't see one correct answer on the side plate screws. They have two of the screws that appear to be of the same length and thus interchangeable, wrong!! The very front screw on the side plate is hand fitted at the factory to fit the yoke. If you have the wrong screw in this position from a previous tear down, the opening and closing of the cylinder will become very stiff and hard. It will be this way or it may just flop open and not ease down as it is designed to work when new. The screw is fitted to ride on the slot's front edge on the yoke.
The posting by Tygar, IIRC it was post #16 should be removed as it is not fit for posting. He states he was taught this by a old Marine, Marines also have idiots they are not immune.
As was posted by several posters, the strain screw should never be loosened from anything but a very tight bottomed out setting. Once left loose, this screw may keep on backing out to the point the gun will not fire. How would you like to drive a car that has all of the tire lug nuts left loose so you and your family could go on vacation.
If you have a gun of any type and use it for protection of yourself and your family, don't touch it to make the trigger lighter. It will get you killed.
I can promise you that if you have to use your gun, you will never remember the trigger pull, the sound of the bullets going off, nothing. Take Care and leave the gun work to those who have the proper training. David

[Petrol & Powder]

Cajun shooter, I agree with all of that and I'll second the dangers of playing with the lockwork of a revolver if you don't know what you are doing. I've fixed several S&W's that had previously been "fixed" at a kitchen table by someone that thought they knew what they were doing. Guns used for self defense should not be played with unless you really know what you're doing.
I do have a question about the use of dummy rounds vs. empty casing to support the extractor when removing/installing the extractor.
I've seen the tool used to support the extractor and it consists of a pair of brass rods connected by a plate that fills the charge holes. Lacking that tool I don't see the difference of using dummy rounds as opposed to empty brass? In fact, the spent, unsized brass actually seems to fit tighter in the charge holes than resized brass. Am I missing something?

[Petrol & Powder]

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/handgun-tools/action-frame-tools/extractor-tools/adjustable-extractor-support-prod796.aspx

The tool used to support the extractor.

[dubber123]

Cajun shooter, I agree with all of that and I'll second the dangers of playing with the lockwork of a revolver if you don't know what you are doing. I've fixed several S&W's that had previously been "fixed" at a kitchen table by someone that thought they knew what they were doing. Guns used for self defense should not be played with unless you really know what you're doing.
I do have a question about the use of dummy rounds vs. empty casing to support the extractor when removing/installing the extractor.
I've seen the tool used to support the extractor and it consists of a pair of brass rods connected by a plate that fills the charge holes.
Lacking that tool I don't see the difference of using dummy rounds as opposed to empty brass? In fact, the spent, unsized brass actually seems to fit tighter in the charge holes than resized brass. Am I missing something?

I'd like this answered too. A dummy round wouldn't seem to offer anything at all over an empty case. The head area just forward of the rim is all that supports the star. This sounds very much like a "I was taught this way, so it must be right thing".

[Patrick56]

I'd like this answered too. A dummy round wouldn't seem to offer anything at all over an empty case. The head area just forward of the rim is all that supports the star. This sounds very much like a "I was taught this way, so it must be right thing".
As dubber123 said, an empty case offers all that a dummy would. I have never used any cases or dummies as there is no need to tighten the rod so tight, that the small pins could shear off. The thread pitch and the diameter of the rod should tell you what force is needed.

[shorty500M]

#1 enemies of any S&W revolver are idiots and abuse/misuse! a tiny spot of threadlocker on ejector rods, DO NOT MESS with hammer springs or strain screws, and a tiny bit of rust preventive lube as needed! Some would say they are weaker than other guns in regards to chamber pressures tolerated but I would reply in that case buy a god insurance policy because S&W's will safely handle the cartridges designed for but not any homemade bombs!

[Petrol & Powder]

As dubber123 said, an empty case offers all that a dummy would. I have never used any cases or dummies as there is no need to tighten the rod so tight, that the small pins could shear off. The thread pitch and the diameter of the rod should tell you what force is needed.
That torque works both ways, you can damage the extractor while unscrewing just as easily as when re-installing it. But in either case I think empty cases provide sufficient support.
However, Cajun Shooter is drawing from years of experience which is why I want to know if I'm missing something. I'm not being critical, I want to learn from those that have the experience.

[Mal Paso]

You could also hold the ejector plate, pins free of the cylinder, in one hand and turn the rod with the other. So long as the cylinder isn't restrained.... Finger tighten only. I use a bare hint of blue loctite on the 629. It almost never needs disassembly although the cylinder gets pulled every 150-200 rounds to clean boolit lube from the cylinder shaft (19g 2400/soft lube). It's when I let cleaning go too long the previous timing issue became obvious.

Some people shouldn't work on cars, load ammo... I know one gunsmith who shouldn't work on guns. Saw a whole family like that on the TV.

I spent my money on manuals and professional tools, put in the time, and feel like I more competant with the weapon. Last month in the boonies I broke the Redhawk (spring link). I pulled the red dot off the 629, put iron sights on so I had a holster gun. Ordered the part online and had it back shooting in a week. Nobody gives me service like I do. Or cares as much about quality.

Not everyone should work on guns. I saw what an ugly trigger job looks like but I think there are a few 7%ers here who can maintain their own weapon.

[Patrick56]

That torque works both ways, you can damage the extractor while unscrewing just as easily as when re-installing it. But in either case I think empty cases provide sufficient support.
However, Cajun Shooter is drawing from years of experience which is why I want to know if I'm missing something. I'm not being critical, I want to learn from those that have the experience.
Pushing the ejector rod in a little while unscrewing, takes the strain off the pins, if there is any. The ejector does not rotate at all when the pins are not engaged, due to cuts in the ejector star axle and cylinder, right?

[Petrol & Powder]

Pushing the ejector rod in a little while unscrewing, takes the strain off the pins, if there is any. The ejector does not rotate at all when the pins are not engaged, due to cuts in the ejector star axle and cylinder, right?

Yep, and putting empty brass in the charge holes accomplishes the same thing, right? Not to mention it is easier to hold the entire cylinder as opposed to just grasping the partially open extractor.
I agree that there is no reason for that assembly to be super tight and that those threads are not designed to be torqued like the lug nuts on a truck. Just different ways to accomplish the same task. I worry more when disassembling one for the first time than I do when I'm in control of the torque when reassembling it.

[cajun shooter]

It's just the weight fellows. I was issued the correct tool at the factory when I took the Revolver course. We did S&W 65 revolvers. My instructor advised that the weight of a loaded case is what he preferred if the tool was not available. His name was John Contro and he had over 35 years at S&W. I don't think I needed to question his answer to me.
I don't recall saying one word about trying to tighten it down to a gorilla torque.
John was one of the best at the factory. I tried to have him as my instructor in all of the schools that I attended at the factory. I also had the pleasure of spending about 5 days at his home with his wonderful wife. Later David

[44man]

I loved the 29's and owned many. They will handle pressures normal for the cartridge just fine and my .44's thrived on the 429421 and 22 gr of 2400. Never harmed a single one. They are strong.
I only had one problem and it was grip position. Could not afford customs. I shot the smallest groups with S&W's then any guns until the BFR's but my hold could vary and move POI greatly. I could shoot 1/2" groups at 50 meters, then another 1/2" group but 10" from the first. I do the same with a Bisley. All of us shot better off hand with them or from prone. I could hit the first 5 steels at IHMSA with them, dead center but when I put the guns down, picked them up, it was over for me. I would miss the next 5.
I hate the RH grip but the SRH just needs a firm hold. Dan Wesson was not picky but I prefer a hog leg. I was able to shift hold as target position changed and did not lose any. Sam Colt had it right.
I have nothing else to say bad about a S&W. I have no idea about the "frame stretch thing or timing except lack of lube and wear." But I did see crane bending from those that slammed it closed, they were soft and bent. I straightened them by hand. S&W has since hardened cranes.

[Petrol & Powder]

Canjun shooter - I assumed you were speaking from well earned knowledge and of course , you were. I've noticed that most S&W armorers keep dummy rounds in their tool kit and it was probably just easier to always use those when working on a revolver.

[cajun shooter]

As I had posted in my first posting, my experience from being a armorer is not just self taught. I attended a total of 5 S&W schools and also was taught by factory armorers at Ruger, Sig, Remington, Ithaca and Glock. I repaired and serviced the side arms of a 1200 combined man depts.
They had one person post what I considered a negative comment about my training and my resume. I would be more than happy to compare my schools with any he attended. I don't consider myself to be any type of a know it all or a gun prima donna, I do however consider myself to be a "FACTORY TRAINED ARMORER" who not only went to and graduated from those schools but worked in the trade for a number of years.
As I posted earlier also, my friend and factory instructor, John Contro carried and used the dummy rounds and I followed his instruction. I did not read a Guns & Ammo 3 page article and become a certified expert. I have always tried to help others with my training and to make sure that some gun hack does not get someone killed. Take Care David

[salvadore]

Wow, this is like goin to church. I've been tuning and cleaning S&Ws since I bought a M-28 back in '74, or '75. Just followed Skeeter's advice on how to handle the springs and cleaning them was (self evident?) obvious. Keeping them clean is how they work so well. None of this is rocket surgery.

[44man]

I am more or less self taught, failures teach and I have had my share. !/4 coil on a rebound spring and a trigger will not set or get so slow the gun is useless. Reducing hammer springs invites trouble along with failures. Soon you learn but David is one I would defer to. He was taught what I learned the hard way. Mistakes are made and anyone that is perfect is suspect, even gun writers.
The stuff I have read all these years have never proven noteworthy and can get you in trouble.
It is true I learned some things but I have spent my life bucking experts. Pick your expert, not one that uses a Ransom rest at 20 yards or does not hold a six gun proper.
Years ago it was common to tell you to back out a strain screw or grind the hammer spring down. But they did not know what makes a gun accurate.

[salvadore]

Oh well 44, I' m thinking you didn' t have much luck tuning a S&W doesn't mean no one does. Nobody claims tuning the action makes a shooter more accurate. I' ve never had anyone suggest backing out the main spring screw was a good idea...except here.

[44man]

Oh well 44, I' m thinking you didn' t have much luck tuning a S&W doesn't mean no one does. Nobody claims tuning the action makes a shooter more accurate. I' ve never had anyone suggest backing out the main spring screw was a good idea...except here.
I made them run like a Swiss watch after I learned there are things you leave alone. To change a trigger rebound spring was better then cutting and to polish moving parts and using a good lube really helped.
The main thing many miss is a primer needs struck with a certain force for accuracy and is why I changed hammer springs every year when I shot IHMSA, then switched to Wolfe Over Power springs. Once you need to change primers because some brands don't fire, your accuracy is gone. If you could measure spring force and record it, you could also predict and record group size for each spring. It is worse with double action because the hammer stroke is not as long.
A lighter but FASTER spring works if the hammer is still hitting with force. To bend, de-arc or grind a heavy spring just slows it down.
I used to be involved with shotguns a lot and the problem children were Remingtons, 870's and 1100's that failed to feed after one or two shots so many were worked on at the carrier and shell latch only to fail and be returned.
I found the magazine spring took a set and could not move shells. I bought Wolfe magazine springs by the dozen. It always fixed the guns.
Ruger springs never held up, even the .22 auto magazine springs. Leave one loaded and you will get failures to feed. Hammer springs take a set. Now a WWII 1911 can have the mag loaded since then and it will function so no springs are equal. A flintlock from the revolutionary war will still have a good spring and I learned how to make my own that never fail. I had a modern flintlock hammer spring break when deer hunting in southern Ohio. I went to the store and bought a pack of rubber bands to put over the hammer and tape up the forearm. I killed a deer but when I got back to Cleveland, everyone knew of the slingshot flintlock hunter??? I made a spring and it is going strong after many, many years.
Do you REALLY want to talk springs? Did you actually say I could not make a S&W run?
Can you answer a question? How would you make a SBH have a 1-1/2# trigger without a single failure to fire, yet shoot a 1-5/16" group at 200 yards. I have my BFR down to 19 oz with a 26# hammer spring. Tell me why a Ruger or BFR SA needs a stronger trigger pull and how to overcome the problem.
Don't tell me I can't make a gun work.

[salvadore]

"Did you actually say I could not make a S&W run?" No 44man, I thought you did. Don't get your undies in a bundle. I'm sure you're all over your springs, Yours may be wound a little tight tho,,,sheesh.

[Mal Paso]

Like 44man says the Ruger factory springs don't last. I started my usual rant about no overpower springs for the Redhawk and guess what? Bowen Classic Arms makes them: http://parts.bowenclassicarms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8&products_id=50

You can read their take here: http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/news.html Scroll down to Dec 11 2011.

The Redhawk was my first revolver. It has made me treasure my second revolver, a S&W 629-6.

Shortly after I bought the Redhawk, Ruger discontinued supplying any important parts. You can't buy a trigger or hammer. It's a closed shop.

[Jeff82]

Not to change the subject, but does anyone have any thoughts on barrel life on CBs. Has anyone shot out a barrel on an S&W 38-special?

[tazman]

Given the sticky about 75000 wadcutters through a model 27(yes, I know it was a 357) I can't see a barrel wearing out in my lifetime. I think the lockwork would give out well before the barrel.

[dubber123]

Not to change the subject, but does anyone have any thoughts on barrel life on CBs. Has anyone shot out a barrel on an S&W 38-special?

My first M-10 was a used gun to start. In a little over a years time, I put nearly 35,000 down the barrel, plus a few hundred odd jacketed bullets. The bore looks as good as new, maybe just a tiny bit shinier. I don't think you could ever wear out a barrel with lead. Poor cleaning practices maybe, but not shooting lead.

[44man]

"Did you actually say I could not make a S&W run?" No 44man, I thought you did. Don't get your undies in a bundle. I'm sure you're all over your springs, Yours may be wound a little tight tho,,,sheesh.
OK, sorry I sound harsh sometimes but it is age with too much work I don't want to do anymore.
Jeff asked about barrel life, I don't know anyone to live long enough to wear a revolver barrel by shooting. Cleaning wrong, yes. Or rust. You might get sandblasting at the cone edges from powder or wear from a cylinder not in line so boolits hit the cone off center. Had a $2500 revolver here that wore half the cone and some of the rifling out, also egged the throats in about 300 rounds of factory ammo. Fit too tight. A super tight cylinder is a "feel good" thing.
Some guys fit a Belt Mountain pin too tight too.
My SBH is approaching 80,000 heavy loads and I can not measure any wear and the groove is the same .430" as when I bought it. Over half those loads were jacketed IHMSA loads heavy enough to knock down 50# of steel at 200 meters. The rest are heavy hunting loads with cast up to 330 gr boolits. Don't worry about a .38 special.
I think Dave will agree that cylinder play is for a reason.
But I will tell you about a light trigger on a Ruger. If you had a trigger to kick your finger forward, it was not allowed at the nats. The reason is the transfer bar would drop too low or off the firing pin. My solution was to make a longer transfer bar. Fit is critical. My trigger does kick my finger but the bar is still on the firing pin. If you cock your Ruger or BFR and the bar is below half the pin, it depends on a harder trigger pull to raise it.
I use tool steel and harden and temper but made one mistake once only. I had to re-heat a portion for fit. Never do that, harden and temper the whole thing, another mistake I learned from. The darn thing broke. Life is not complete until you make a transfer bar by hand with a hacksaw and files. But done right, you can think a Ruger trigger off.
Now a RH is a pain since one spring does the trigger and hammer, I will not own one. I prefer the SRH above all others. It can equal a good S&W right from the factory.
I have no secrets that I do not share.