A question for auto mechanics.

[shaper]

Have you ever seen a v8 engine that you could not adjust the valves? I have one. A friend built up a 1st gen 350 engine to go into my 89 Silverado with TBI. I installed it and a new 700r4 transmission bolted on. Got everything hooked up properly and started the engine. The rockers were loud but I went with some run in time anyway after some preliminary adjusting.. Took it for a test run and barely got it home going around 25-30 mph. Valve clatter was very loud. I went through the adjustment several times and they are still loud. I got the timing set as best as I could with it running bad. Called the man that built it and he came down to see for himself. a note about the builder. He is a good friend that builds race car engines and all manner of airplane engines, so I trust his work. He went through the valve adjustment procedure and no change. He thinks the low end isn't getting oil. I put mechanical oil pressure gauges in the port near the distributor and another near the oil filter. I got 50 psi at both ports. So I'm thinking the lifters are flat. Pulled the intake, removed the push rods and pulled the lifters. The lifters are tight. I could not get them to compress. There were no marks on the bottom of the lifters. While I was there I pulled the camshaft out. Not a mark on it. I took the camshaft to the machine shop for another opinion. He said to put it back in the engine, it's good to go. The only thing I haven't done yet is to look at the camshaft rear bearing. My friend said if it is installed wrong it could cause low oil pressure. I plan to pull the engine and put it on a maintenance stand this week.
So, If anyone has an opinion I'm open

[dubber123]

I dunno. If a cam bearing was installed incorrectly, you might not be getting oil to the top end, and that will certainly cause a bunch of clatterly lifters, and bigger problems shortly... 50 Psi is plenty for most applications. I did a 383 Chrylsler and used an ElCheapo $89 cam kit. It had a few really clattery lifters. The stock valve train on them is totally non adjustable. It decided to quiet down and play nice after a few days. Good luck with yours.

[starnbar]

Are you running a iron block and aluminum heads or a iron block and iron heads? Did you check and make sure the lifters aren't solids?

[webfoot10]

Are the lifters hydraulic or the solid type? Bought a set of hydraulic lifters for my Chevrolet 350, they came coated with a
preservative oil. The lifters would not collapse as the oil had dried and gummed them up. Had to disassemble them and
soak in carb cleaner to clean out the oil holes and dried oil in them. If they are the solid type, you would need a adjustable
type rockerarm like were used in the older chevy engines. Not sure what the newer engines have for adjustments as I haven't
built an engine in the last twenty years so I'am just taking a guess as to what might be wrong. The cam bearing could be off
center and restrict the oil flow. But I'd check the lifters for gumming first, as you have them out. Hope you find your problem.
Keep us posted as to what is wrong, Somebody else might have a similar problem.
webfoot10

[BethelHntr]

Did you prime the new lifters in oil ? When submerged they need to be purged of air by compressing the springs up and down til you see no more air bubbles.

[strongbow67]

As you adjust the lifters with the engine running is oil squirting out at least 2-3 inches?

[bob208]

sounds like the cam lobs have gone missing. did you put the oil in or did the builder? most of the new oils do not have an important additive that helps with cam break in. zinc is what is missing. some of the diesel engine oils have it some of the fleet oils. but across the counter you are about out of luck.

[shaper]

The block was completely assembled when i got it. It is a iron block and heads. I'm not sure if he primed the lifters or not. The lifters are hydraulic. When I pulled the camshaft I did look at the front bearing. In my opinion it is trash. I will have the engine and transmission out by this time tomorrow. I do plan to open a couple of the lifters and see what is inside.

[Minerat]

I had a small block 400 built in 1984 and it did the something. From day 1 it clattered like the lifters needed adjustment. I took it back after a week of this and the guy said it was just the 3/4 race cam I had installed that was noisy and it would go away at about 2000 miles. The moron that built it dumped the business about 2 weeks later and when I went back the new owner would not stand by the warranty. This was a big engine shop in North Denver off Pecos and I-70 called Denver Engine and Transmission. I took it to a mechanic I trusted and he dropped the cam and found they had installed the wrong cam bearings. The bearings were stamped 0.003 and the cam was stamped 0.004. Had to have the cam reground and new bearing installed that engine only lasted 2 years (15,000 mi) so it was junk to begin with. Hope you miss out on that.

[rockrat]

As said, when you were adjusting the lifters, you should have had plenty of oil squirting out of the little hole in the rocker arms , where the pushrods fit. If not, you aren't getting oil to the top end.

[bullet maker 57]

We're the timing gears lined up correctly ?

[shaper]

It took some work, but I got one of the lifters open. It was totally full of oil. I don't know if it was put in before going in the engine or it went in after starting. all of the cam lobes are like new. I have a couple of old valve covers with the centers cut out. I use these when I do valve adjustments. When I first started the engine the oil would clear the valve cover and hit the inner fender. Now there is just a trace of oil on the rockers.

[abunaitoo]

When you took off the valve cover, was there oil on the top of the head????
If you had oil, the lifters are getting oil.
Possible wrong length push rods or wrong rocker arms.
Wrong cam and lifters for the year of the engine.
Lifters not working correctly.
Push rods plugged up.
If not, your not getting oil to the lifters.
On older engines there are three small freeze plugs in the rear. I've once seen them installed to deep closing off the oil to the lifters. Could be one of them is to deep.
Some tap the hole and replace them with screw in pipe plugs. Same thing to check for.
Was the engine running before the rebuild????
The oil goes up from the oil pump, through the rear main bearing and cap.
Through the filter.
Up to the oil passage, to the cam and lifter galleys.
Through the lifters, through the push rods, up to the rockers.

134854

[Safeshot]

First, all of the cam bearings need to have the oil holes properly aligned. Some even go the route to "drill" the holes out after installation. Second, Ditto on the comments making sure that you really have the correct hyd. lifters and about about making sure that they are clean and have no "sticky or dry residue" on or IN them. Be sure to "prime" the Hyd. lifters - either "pump them full of oil" ("no air bubbles" when they are compressed (under oil) or submerge them in oil for a "long time". Also, if when you adjust the valves - with the engine running - you do not have a lot of oil squirting out of each of the rocker arm oil holes (above the push rods) and making a "big oily mess", you are not getting enough oil to and through the lifters nor enough oil to lube the lifters in the block or the lifters against the cam. The oil to the lifters is supplied by an oil gallery on each side of the center oil gallery. Each side oil gallery provides oil to one row of lifters on that side of the block. The oil to these galleries is routed from the center oil gallery to the rear of the block and around the distributor shaft housing. An incorrect distributor housing may fit in the block and can even be adjusted so the engine will run (but only for a little while). Check the lower distributor shaft housing for a groove that will connect the center and side oil galleries. Also a good idea to check the part number on the distributor housing to be sure that it is the correct part for the specific application. Just my opinion, hope that it is of some help, Safeshot

[abunaitoo]

"Have you ever seen a v8 engine that you could not adjust the valves?"

Yes. Newer Gen Chevy engines have no rocker adjustment.
If you have the wrong cam, lifters, push rods, rockers, it will not be good.

[oldred]

There is nothing uncommon about engines with a non-adjustable valve train, probably most of the engines built in the last 60 years or so had no adjustment. This is a small block Chevy correct? Those should be adjustable but ONLY if you have the right components, are the push rods the correct length? Can they be tightened down enough to cause a miss? If you can tighten those things down all the way and they still clatter I would suspect pushrod length is wrong, is this only one or a couple of cylinders or all of them? Those engines are notorious for pulling out that pressed in rocker stud but if all the cylinders are doing this then that's likely not a problem.


In order to answer this you really need to know if you do indeed have the right parts and whether or not you are simply running out of adjustment due to incorrect valve train parts or you have an oil pressure problem to the cam galley.

[458mag]

"Have you ever seen a v8 engine that you could not adjust the valves?"

Yes. Newer Gen Chevy engines have no rocker adjustment.
If you have the wrong cam, lifters, push rods, rockers, it will not be good.

True that. I was heavy lift mechanic for generous motors, uh, I mean general motors for some years and they did away with adjustable valve lifters some where in the 90s I believe. If there was valve noise from then on it was an engine change. Kept me pretty buisey anyway.

[bob208]

as far as an engine that you can't adjust the valves yes the old olds and Pontiac. we got around that by installing chevy big block studs and using big block nuts and adjusting the valves like a chevy. could get almost 1000 rpm more.

[lancem]

if you made the adjustment and they are still clacking then you didn't make the adjustment. If you are doing it while the engine is running you tighten the rocker until it is quiet then another half turn to center the lifter.

[popper]

Lifters have to collapse some to get oil to the top end. If used lifters not in the same body, they are tight and won't collapse.
The lifters are tight. I could not get them to compress.

[starmac]

You do not need to pulle the engine to see if it is oiling. It should be squirting oil out of every rocker cover while you were adjusting them, on a 350, I'm talking squirting enough to make a big mess, unless you use stoppers on the rockers. Even if the lifters were solid, and you have the right pushrpds and rockers, you can adjust them far enough to make the cylinder miss, and quit makeing noise. I have seen the rocker studs pull on small blocks too though.

[shaper]

I pulled the motor and separated the transmission yesterday. I knocked out the big plug on the back and the cam rear bearing still looks new. The only thing I haven't touched is the oil pump.
Yes, when I first started the motor it threw oil everywhere. But as it got warmer and more noisy the amount of oil flow went way down.
Here's something else to think about. The truck is a 89 silverado with TBI. The block is a 1975 that came with a 4 barrel carb. So, is the cam different for a carb and a TBI, what about the lifters and push rods? Also, I took the distributor to the parts store to see if it was the proper one to have. They said they could not cross the numbers but it was a generic type and would work fine in the truck. I'm about to the end of my rope here. I've looked at everything that could possibly be the problem but haven't come up with anything I could point to and say, that's the problem. Tomorrow I will pull a tarp over it and just let it sit for a while, I have a ton of work to catch up on and I can't spent the time on the truck right now.

[lancem]

I'm running a 70's 400 SBC in my 92 with TBI. You should be just fine with the cam, lifters, and pushrods. If you go and replace the oil pump you might as well pop the mains and make sure you haven't spun a bearing since you'll have the pan off.

[starmac]

If it has oil pressure cold and loosing it as it warms up, it sounds like bearings. Use some plastigauge and check them. You would be able to adjust the valves even is they aren't oiling though, if it has the right push rods and rockers. There is enough threads on the studs to screw them down to actually make solid lifters out of them and it will run right, but will damage the lifters and eat the cam in short order.
Small block studs are famous for pulling the studs, but I have never seen one pull all of them. Is it possible someone has installed screw in studs, that are taller for aftermarket rockers?

[abunaitoo]

The valve train looks to use all the same parts.
Cam would be different, but wouldn't cause your problems.
I did see that the distributor has a different number, but it's because on is for TBI and other is for carb.
Could the oil pump pick have fallen off?????
Seen it happen many times with rebuilds.
I always braze it in when I do a rebuild.

[shaper]

I FOUND IT..... I had the engine on the floor and was getting ready to put a tarp over it and call it a day for about a month. I was just burned out working on it. I got to looking at the three little plugs near the cam rear bearing. I pulled the top center plug and looked down the hole. I saw something that looked like a piece of rust in the bore. I took a small tool and pulled some of it out. I couldn't believe it. Sometime in the build process a dirt dauber built a home in the center oil passage. That is why I had 50 psi on the back of the engine and almost none in the lifter galleys. This is one for the book.

[Alvarez Kelly]

I FOUND IT..... I had the engine on the floor and was getting ready to put a tarp over it and call it a day for about a month. I was just burned out working on it. I got to looking at the three little plugs near the cam rear bearing. I pulled the top center plug and looked down the hole. I saw something that looked like a piece of rust in the bore. I took a small tool and pulled some of it out. I couldn't believe it. Sometime in the build process a dirt dauber built a home in the center oil passage. That is why I had 50 psi on the back of the engine and almost none in the lifter galleys. This is one for the book.

Wow. Glad you found it. You might want to pull the other two and re clean the entire block.

[lancem]

Depending on how much you ran it you might want to check all of the bearings, doesn't take much oil starving to shorten the life of an engine.

[abunaitoo]

Glad you found it.
I would check the other two ports. Just in case.
Also a good idea to check all the bearings. Mains and rods.
Braze the oil pump pick-up to the body while the oil pan is off.

[oldred]

That engine needs to be completely disassembled and the oil passages thoroughly flushed out otherwise there could still be dirt in there. While it's entirely possible all the dirt is already gone there's simply no way of knowing that and since the engine is already out it just makes sense to do this. Check all the bearing shells including the cam bearings and all the oil passages including the feeds for the lifters, it only take a bit of stray dirt that has made it's way directly into the oil passages to cause a lot of grief later on.

[tomme boy]

The 75 block uses a different flywheel than the 89. The 89 has a 1 piece rear main seal and the 75 is a two piece. I think the balancer is different also as the balance is not the same.

[shaper]

Yes, It is going to get the treatment. I am in the process of taking the motor down, completely. I will have the block flushed thoroughly. All bearings will be replaced, regardless of current condition. Everything else is still new and will be put back in place.
I plan to put plug in connectors in the front port, the port near the distributor and the one at the oil filter. With these in place I can easily connect a mechanical oil pressure gauge for testing anytime I might need to know what is happening in each area. I'll look at the oil pump also. I have heard about someone installing a 12 volt remote oil pump. That would be nice to use when I
need to do the pre oiling before starting the motor again. OK, so I'm thinking over the top now. But, If I want to do something now is the time to do it while I have the time and money at the same time.
Any other thoughts?

[rockrat]

I took an old distibutor, brazed a rod on the top part of the distributor shaft and had taken off the distributor gear. Put it in the distributor hole and used an old variable speed drill and ran backawards IIRC. Would let the entire engine system pressurize for about 15 seconds. Put good distributor in and set timing and then started engine that was somewhat "pre-oiled".

[tomme boy]

I have an old distributor also to prelube the motors. I took off the cam gear off of the dist. and ground off all of the teeth then put it back on. Make sure to NOT push down when you spin it with the drill. It can score the oil pump and it can loose pressure.

[bob208]

I hope you don't take it back to the same person. I have built a lot of engines over the years . that blockade in the oil system was pure carelessness.

when you put it back together again. use only paper towels not cotton shop towels. cotton lint will not dissolve in the oil like a paper towel will.

[B.C.Jay]

Check for the 1/2" cup plug inside the block near #5 main. It's gets driven out from where the oil pressure sender get screwed in. and replaced from the main bearing side. If it gets forgotten, it bypasses oil around the filter.
It has to come out for proper cleaning.

[oldred]

Just a thought about the electric oil pump, while they might be nice to have around for pre-oiling the engine prior to startup it should be considered that engines like the small block chevy will easily go 200,000 plus miles with proper care and I seriously doubt normal startup pre-oiling would be of much if any benefit (EXCEPT for that all important initial startup!). The oil film remaining on the bearings and other surfaces is more than adequate to prevent excessive wear upon startup and cylinder walls/rings would see little or no benefit since the engine would have to be spinning in order for the "squirt holes" in the connecting rods to do much good, basically it would do no harm but for the cost and effort it in all likelihood would do little if any good either. For some overhead cam engines and those with a turbo there may be a bit of an advantage but on the engines that can really benefit the factory usually includes a charged type oil filter to handle this chore (Toyota?). That chevy oil pump is surging oil to the bearings by the time the engine has made only a couple revolutions and fresh oil is reaching the bearings by the time it starts but even at that ample lube will already be present unless the engine has been sitting for months or years, the cylinder walls/piston rings MIGHT benefit from a bit of pre-lube but when you consider how they receive oil by the rod ends squirting/slinging it a pre-luber simply will not help since the engine has to be spinning for the cylinders/rings to receive this oil.

Just something to think about before spending the money, money and effort which would be better spent on a remote duel oil filter setup!


For initial startup that electric drill suggestion is a good one but I have done this many times over the years with a simple "speed handle" and socket extension. All you need to do is spin the oil pump a few times to make sure it is primed and to fill the oil galleys and purge the air out, using a drill to build oil pressure is probably not necessary but could be assuring if nothing else. If the pump is properly lubed and primed before it is installed then hand turning a few revolutions will purge the air and fill the oil passages even to the lifters so either way is perfectly ok and is just a matter of what you have on hand and how you prefer to do it.