Dimples

[andyt53]

Since I started using cores from a Lee 358-105 mold I have noticed dimples around the top of the finished projectile. I cleaned the point form die multiple times and even varied the amount of lube being used. Thinking it could be hydraulic dents. Also thought maybe the jackets were not annealed properly, so I varied the annealing on a hand full of cases, all had the dimples.

So then I decided to see if I could use just the point form die as a one step die instead of using the core seat die. I flared the case mouths to easily accept the core without shaving lead then using the flare die to lightly seat the core. I then proceeded to the point form die and swaged all the bullets. Not only did they come out dimensionally correct, but none of them had the dimples.

My question is why was I getting dimples around the projectile if I used the core seat die but no dimples when I one stepped them? By the way, I'm using the CH4D 101 40 cal dies, annealed 9mm cases for jackets and cores from a Lee 358-105-SWC that drop at 107grs with dead soft lead.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Maybe the lead is supporting the area right at the tip as the point is being formed a little better than when you seated the core deeper in the case with the core seat die and then point form.

Initially it sounded like you were using too much lube but it sounds like you debunked that...along with the varying degrees of anneal.

[andyt53]

My first thought was too much lube, but that wasn't it. Like I said, it only started happening with these cores. It's just frustrating me that I can't figure out why it was happening. Even though I eliminated the dimples, I would still like to know what caused them.

On a side note, I made a keychain 40 S&W with one of my brass jacketed bullets and polished it all up. Also made a nickel bullet and nickle case keychain for fun. They shine so beautifully. The mother in law asked me to make herone. She loves the brass on brass so I'm going to lacquer hers to prevent tarnishing.

[goblism]

Include a picture of the dimpled bullets if you can, I think that will help us help you

[andyt53]

http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u366/AndyT53/Guns%20and%20Ammo/5E07674C-78CD-49E3-B395-4A955F6DAA75.jpg (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/AndyT53/media/Guns%20and%20Ammo/5E07674C-78CD-49E3-B395-4A955F6DAA75.jpg.html)

Three on the left were made using the core seat die. Last one on the right was made with only the point form die in one step mode.

[goblism]

I wonder if you maybe annealed them too much. I had this problem once and that is what I found the cause to be, they didn't look as pronounced as yours so might be something different still.

[andyt53]

Let me break down the annealing test I did. I over annealed 4 cases, under annealed 4 and didn't anneal 4. I then made two of each using the core swage die and two of each without the core swage die. All the ones that went thru the core swage die had those dimples. All the cases that I one stepped were fine. Except for the unannealed, it was just under .399 in diameter so I tossed it by the lead pot.

Before all the anneal tests, I tried various amounts of lube ranging from over lubed to no lube at all. Again, the ones that went thru the core swage die had dimpes. The ones that did not go thru the core swage die didn't have dimples when way over lubed. The dies were cleaned multiple times.

I must be overlooking something. Tomorrow I will attempt the anneal test again to make sure I didn't get anything mixed up or mess anything up. I just want to find out why the dimples only occure when using the core swage die. Using the point form die as a one step die is probably my new way of making them. Saves me a little time not having them go thru two dies.

[Southron]

I think that it was Harry Pope that proved that when it came to accuracy, as long as the base of the bullet was perfect, the nose of the bullet can be out of whack and accuracy isn't affected adversely. In other words, don't scrap those bullets with the dents in the nose-just use them as practice ammo!

[Short Range]

Just a guess, but how about the possibility that when seating the core you are leaving the top bit of brass 'unsupported'. When you don't seat the core, the core will be up higher in the case while the brass is being formed and that will help support it. Also, what is your length? I am thinking that you are compressing the brass down and with the core seated all the way down that the brass will tend to buckle a bit at the top of the core causing the dimples.

[andyt53]

I think that it was Harry Pope that proved that when it came to accuracy, as long as the base of the bullet was perfect, the nose of the bullet can be out of whack and accuracy isn't affected adversely. In other words, don't scrap those bullets with the dents in the nose-just use them as practice ammo!

I don't think they will have an effect on accuracy, I just don't like they way the dimples look. I know, I know. Who cares just shoot them! And I will shoot every last one of them!!!!

[andyt53]

Just a guess, but how about the possibility that when seating the core you are leaving the top bit of brass 'unsupported'. When you don't seat the core, the core will be up higher in the case while the brass is being formed and that will help support it. Also, what is your length? I am thinking that you are compressing the brass down and with the core seated all the way down that the brass will tend to buckle a bit at the top of the core causing the dimples.

Didn't think about that honestly. You may be on to something. It's possible that the brass, being soft annealed, buckling when point forming after core seating. But without core seating, like you said, the core is close to the top, supporting the jacket material better. My projectiles range from .667-.670" in length, so I am compressing the jacket with the lip of the hollow point punch. This makes sense to me. I will play with them more tomorrow.

But I think I'm not going to use the core seater anymore anyways. I like the idea of lightly seating the core and just one pull of the press handle to swage my projos to spec. The required force on the press doesnt seem to be anymore than seating the core in a separate step. It's actually more like a two step more than a one step. Since I'm flaring the case mouth then dropping a core and using the flaring die to just lightly compress the lead. I have to do that since the core I'm using is from a Lee 358-105-SWC mold and they dont drop in without flaring. Before "discovering" this one step process, I was flaring, placing a core in the case, core seating then finally point forming.

[andyt53]

While I'm at it and without starting a new thread, how are you guys removing the swage lube after point forming? So far I tried dry tumbling, didnt work too well. Then I tried wet tumbling without pins, didn't do anything. So I resorted to placing them in a large towel and doing the hammock/bowling ball method. After a few minutes they are mostly lube free. Should I try wet tumbling like normal but with SS pins? Maybe a few dips in laquer thinner before wet tumbling?

[Short Range]

Missed it on the first read through, but ICH had the same thought about the unsupported case back at #2. I tried to duplicate the dimples on 5 rounds with the core seating, but they all came out fine. Only difference is that I only have cores that are about a Layman #2 instead of dead soft.

Before I got started swaging I had read about core seating and was wondering if it made a better job, but after trying it both ways I couldn't tell the difference and when you are looking at making thousands of rounds one less step is better.

[blaser.306]

Who knows? Maybe you are onto something! They intentionally put hundreds of tiny dimples onto the surface of a golf ball?

[andyt53]

Haha! I intentionally put the dimples into the case for better flight! Only started this thread to show off my skills!

[andyt53]

Missed it on the first read through, but IHC had the same thought about the unsupported case back at #2. I tried to duplicate the dimples on 5 rounds with the core seating, but they all came out fine. Only difference is that I only have cores that are about a Layman #2 instead of dead soft.

Before I got started swaging I had read about core seating and was wondering if it made a better job, but after trying it both ways I couldn't tell the difference and when you are looking at making thousands of rounds one less step is better.

Making loads and loads of projectiles is my goal. I want to stockpile them so I have them on hand. I was prepared to do a run of 2k today since I had all day to goof off, but I only had 713 cores to use. So I only swaged 713, didn't feel like casting any cores today.