Alloy for long nosed GG match bullets -take II

[Chill Wills]

This is a re-post. I mistakenly posted this in the Paper-patch section yesterday and I want to get this in the correct section for comment.

I have been working with different alloys for the target rifle matches for fifteen to twenty years now.
None of the following applies to Paper-Patch bullets or some may, I just have not spent as much time experimenting with them and I would like to limit any discussion to the Grease Groove bullet in this thread. And a good discussion I would enjoy having! PP alloy requirements are a somewhat different animal and can be discussed elsewhere, please. I hope to not turn this into a GG/PP compare and contrast.
Thanks!

The suitability of the long time Lead/Tin alloys used for BPCR have been worked over by everyone.
50/1, 40/1, 30/1, 25,1 and 20/1 were the main stay. 16/1 has been the new darling for the long nosed high Bc target bullets as of late and for good reason. Though only slightly harder than 20/1, the 16/1 has been tested to show more resistance to nose slumping than its close alloy - 20/1.
I've shot a lot or 16/1 and have had great success with it. Although, the 16/1 bullets are not magic bullets and the full range of problems can still be had with it too.

By my experience, there is no need to use the high tin alloys to shoot the more traditional short radius nose profiles. Their short nosed geometry proves strong enough and stable with the lesser alloys. But, in the target rifle-BPCR match shooting world, like anything else, competitors use every advantage available to them. One of them is the long, unsupported, low drag bullet nose. The so called "money bullet" is one example but there are many more. Especially when the targets are 600y distant or with Creedmoor shooting, the distance is 800, 900 and 1000 yards, then the small improvements to the bullet's nose add up over the 30 shot or 60 shot final scores. In other words, if you are shooting blunt bullets or bullets made blunt and off center by soft alloy in long-range matches, you are suffering death by a thousand cuts.

This would be a good place for a picture of bullet nose examples but I can not pot pic's just now. I will work on that.  anyway....

I've taken to shooting various Lead-Tin-Antimony alloys in Match shooting. Years ago, common knowledge, received wisdom and wives tails stated that shooting the widely available wheel-weight alloy and/or any amount of Antimony in your BPCR alloy would grow hair on your hands. Or more to the point, leave lead in the barrel and produce poor accuracy. I never found this to be true. Not one little bit. When leading occurs and it does often when shooting GG bullets under a hot sun like in a Long-range match, I have never found Antimony to be the sole source of leading. Other reasons can and do cause leading and jumping to conclusions is the easy way out but not the helpful solution.

You will notice I have avoided the mention of BHN values because of the differing values produced by the various brands of testing devices available to us at our price point. BHN can be covered but elsewhere too. As long as YOU know what your hardness values are on your tester and can reproduce it - your good!

My best accuracy-least leading bullets to date are made of something close to but not an exact alloy of 97.5PB-1Sn-1.5Pb. I make my alloy in large batches of 200+ lbs and have had nothing to complain about. If you are faint of heart and need to have "certified metals" to sleep at night, the following alloys can be constructed by ordering metal from the likes of Rotometals, a sponsor here or others and come to exact ratios. I have found that close is fine and the least of the big picture.

A useful alloy for the big target guns:

Lead-Tin-Antimony or Pb-Sn-Sb by percent
97.5 - 1 - 1.5
This can be made by mixing 50%-50% wheelweight-soft lead and adding 1% tin to that. Easy- yes? I do not recommend adding 2% tin to the mix. This results in a greater amount of Tin than Antimony. Not good. Adding 2% tin, as often suggested does not help cast-ability much and has the unwanted effect of produces hardness changes in the alloy over time. In other words, in my experience, the addition of the second 1% of Sn in the mix produces an alloy that is not time stable. The stated 1% tin alloy is time stable and casts fine. Keeping the Sn equal to or less than the amount of Sb in the alloy seams to result in a stable hardness.

I have used many small variations of this. I used to mix (in small batch) 30 lb wheelweight with 45lb soft lead and add 1% tin and this worked well and really great for the lighter loads used in 45-70, 40-60 Maynard, 38-55 but was lacking in big charges used in L-R loads, the 45-90, 45-100 and such.
Next week I am going to batch up a ratio of 100lbs WW with 60 lbs soft lead and 1% tin added; a mix I have shot before. It is useful to BPCR and shoots very well. This should produce a mix that is close to 96.5 Pb – 1.25 Sn – 2.25 Sb. I want to test this alloy some more but it may not be needed to meet the desired goal and there for not a good use of the extra antimony base metal. I can re-blend it with more soft lead if there is no clear advantage.

I would be interested in anyone’s experience using this for BPCR.
Michael Rix

[montana_charlie]

I do not recommend adding 2% tin to the mix. This results in a greater amount of Tin than Antimony. Not good. Adding 2% tin, as often suggested does not help cast-ability much and has the unwanted effect of produces hardness changes in the alloy over time. In other words, in my experience, the addition of the second 1% of Sn in the mix produces an alloy that is not time stable. The stated 1% tin alloy is time stable and casts fine. Keeping the Sn equal to or less than the amount of Sb in the alloy seams to result in a stable hardness.


I would be interested in anyone’s experience using this for BPCR.
Michael Rix
I don't have any experience that can help you, but I have some saved from the time before Dan Theodore turned all of his posts into Greek gibberish.

His recommendation was that tin and antimony amounts be equal within the alloy.
His two most useful alloys were 96/2/2 and 97/1.5/1.5.

The last was made with three parts of Lyman #2 and seven parts of pure lead.

He liked these alloys for a couple of reasons, but an important one was their hardness stability after an initial period of change right after cooling.

The following graph (his product) illustrates how that worked out for him:

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/Graphof4AlloysBHNOverTime-1.jpg

CM

[Don McDowell]

I'll leave the same answer..
When I could get good wheelweights in enough quantity to bother using, for bpcr loads I came to really like 9 lbs of ww's with 1 lb pure lead.
When getting enough wheelweights to make it worth the bother became impossible, I went to using certified 20-1 for most bullets, and 16-1 serves well in some other bullets, depending on a variety of things, but in the end I think it would be pretty hard to go wrong with 20-1 for all , if that's the only thing a person could find.

[Chill Wills]

Hey Charlie, Thanks. Those are good graphs!

Dan and I are good friends and talk all the time. We got a strong dose of each other last week at the American Creedmoor Cup in Phoenix. Really not strong enough -I enjoy his company. Anyway, years ago he and I covered this and our experiences with Sb three metal alloy before he put these alloys to the test. One thing about Dan; he has always done the tests and answered the questions I have had but lacked the time and follow-through to do them myself! I am a father of two kids and can't get to it all - someday! He is also more dedicated to the scientific method than I am so when ever Dan has something to say, I listen. Especially if I had a different opinion going in.

If I remember correctly, Dan used Rotometals premixed alloys like Lyman #2 (90-5-5) which when mixed with pure Pb gives equal ratios like 95-2.5-2.5, 96-2-2, 97-1.5-1.5 or what ever you want. Easy. Dan also worked with ratios with greater and lesser amounts making unequal amounts of Sb-Sn.
But, The point for us is you clearly do not need to have equal amounts of Sn-Sb but just do not want to exceed the Sb with the Sn or hardness will not be time-stable.

I'm writing fast so I hope that is clear... Thanks for posting those graphs!

[Old-Win]

About 3 years ago, I melted down about 50 lbs of extra hard shot left over from my trapshooting days. Every webpost that I could find said "bad juju". Don't shoot antimony. The manufacturers website said the antimony content was between 4-7% antimony. It formed a very cottage cheese like dross that I skimmed off and then later found out that it was mostly SB. I don't know what my SB % was when I was finished but I then added 50% pure lead. As you can see, I have no clue what the final SB % is but I keep throwing in a couple of ingots in the pot when I melt down 20 lbs of 20-1 tin to lead. What I found is that even though the mix has a small amount of SB, it changes the crystal lattice structure. The bullets come out a dull silver with a crystalline look rather than the nice shiny look of straight 20-1. I've been shooting them for the last couple of years with no leading. I always pre-lube my bore before shooting
Now, the question is, what is it doing to help with nose slump if anything? I've read about age softening of bullets yet I've shot excellent scores with year old bullets. Good enough to win the 800 yd relay. I don't think you can take for granted that anything published in the past can be accepted unless it has been verified by somebody else. Are equal small amounts of SN,SB good enough to keep a bullet from slumping? Shooting BPTR makes it difficult because the only real testing is done at a match and matches are very limited. The target tells the story. The other way to test, is Kurt's method and he has done more extensive work than anybody else. A sawdust catch box may work but I don't know of anybody who's really done it. I looked at the PP post and it looks like Brent is about to.
Up until 4-5 years ago, I used to be fairly competitive at Lodi, now I'm not. It's not that my scores have dropped that much, it's just other shooters have gotten better.
I wish I were dying of a 1000 cuts, but it seems like I still have a relay that I just tank at which takes me out of the picture.

[Lead pot]

I shot up a bunch of old loaded rounds this winter that have been loaded since 09 to recover the cases. It was a rough winter for me so I just put holes into snow drifts to break the boredom :) The old bullets looked just as good as they do just cast. I don't see any difference between fresh cast and old.
As far as the sawdust trap goes. It works OK oiled or dry or damp with just water. Dry loose dust is better then wet but it is not as good as snow. Snow does not deform the bullet unless it had a warm spell and turned to ice crystals.
But saw dust will tell you what is going on.

[BrentD]

My 10' long sawdust box is full of planer shaving - which are pretty small, but not small enough and that does substantial damage to the nose of a lead bullet. So, this past winter (is it really past?) we had 2000 sq feet of oak flooring refinished and I had a whole bunch of perfect super fine sanding dust I planned to use to replace the shavings. Somehow, the dust has disappeared from the garage now and I don't know where
it went. I can't believe the chipmunks stole it all, but they may be in collusion with the mice. I don't know but I'm going to have to find 10 cubic feet of sanding dust again.

[Lead pot]

Don't you have an Industrial Arts? Saw dust from under a table saw I found that does a fair job.
:) mice do a find job moving things :) I dug out a box of boat dock lines I haven't used for several years and in that box was enough bird seed to fill a couple feeders :)

[BrentD]

No, it's not high school here. I imagine there are quite a few table saws around campus. I know of several but they are either not used much or rare connected to central vacuums like in my own shop and thus the dust gets mixed with lots of stuff from other machines plus floor sweepings. I need to contact the floor guy for dust from his next few jobs.

I had mice break into my house ventilation system last fall. They hauled many hundreds of acorns. I cleaned those out in the basement and dumped them in a box. Then three mice figured out how to breach the foundation and took up residence in my basement for a couple of weeks while I trapped them out, and they found their ways back in. Eventually, I found out how they were doing it and plugged it up, but then I noticed that all the acorns in that box are missing. I will be finding acorns in small handfuls for as long as I own the house now.

[Lead pot]

Michael here is an example of bullets with and with out Antimony.
The three on the left is a "money" bullet I just picked up. It is a mix of pure foundry Lead 99.9% and one roll of no lead solder 95/5. 5% antimony in that 1 pound roll. The mix was 20# lead and one roll of solder. The ogive did swell enough that the lands did make very shallow marks on the bore section.
The two next to the GG are of the same mix. 20# lead one roll of solder. The top bullet is Brent's prolate the center is my .44 prolate I use in the .44-100 Rem.
The second photo I used for an example of the two prolates cast using 1/19 tin/lead. This will show you what that small percentage of antimony will do to your alloy mix.
Lyman used to offer three alloys #2,#4 and #6. #2 was the hardest and it works very good with the GG bullets. But for the PP you better use them for bullets patched over bore diameter or they will not do what you want.
Using antimony in a alloy for bullets you need tin. The antimony will mix with lead when it is molten but the antimony will separate as it cools and you will see frosting on the bullet and that frosting will lead your bore. The more antimony in the mix you must balance it using tin. You will read posts from a lot of old lead bullet shooters that cast with WW and they will say I add tin to the mix. That is not for making the bullet harder it is for blending the extra antimony with the lead better so it does not smear the bore. Adding more lead will also do this to a point. But adding tin to a lead WW mix to keep this from happening you might just as well use T/L if your looking for something cost efficient alloys.
This goes for Linotype and Mono type. If you add this to lead and see frosting on the bullets you will also leave it behind in the bore unless your lube is very good.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_2283_zps948cjo2p.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_2283_zps948cjo2p.jpg.html)http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_2286_1_zpsicemmlqd.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_2286_1_zpsicemmlqd.jpg.html)

[Lead pot]

:) If a mouse finds it's way into my basement it eats my bullet lube and it wont be long and I will smell it :)

[BrentD]

My mice were, apparently, too busy eating acorns to mess with lube. Though I don't really know why.

[Chill Wills]

OK, I read this but do not have time just now to ask my questions - all of them.
But a quick one Kurt - the picture on the right of the five bullets....can you say what alloy each is (again) I am not clear.
Thanks!
Good info!

OldWin
Brent
I have questions for you too but they will have to wait.
Life calls............... "yes dear"

[BrentD]

Well, Michael, you know how to find us. Better yet, just come to Lodi for Mother's Day weekend and ask them in person! Best match of the year.

[Lead pot]

The 3 L to R 1 roll of solder to 20# lead. 4&5 1# tin 19# lead

[Lead pot]

To get the secret mix of this alloy mix of this Danielson prolate bullet http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_c755dc34-a6c9-45cc-8620-3d0a4e7e847b_zpsjmnppov2.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/c755dc34-a6c9-45cc-8620-3d0a4e7e847b_zpsjmnppov2.jpg.html)
that shoots a 200 yard 10 shot group like this not counting the top holes before a sight change you would have to get me in a dentist's chair to get my secret match load from me :)
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_83ed5235-1fa0-4f9a-ab32-eca4a1b3d0de_zps6irlvbjw.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/83ed5235-1fa0-4f9a-ab32-eca4a1b3d0de_zps6irlvbjw.jpg.html)

[Chill Wills]

Well, Michael, you know how to find us. Better yet, just come to Lodi for Mother's Day weekend and ask them in person! Best match of the year.

I just returned from the best match of the year.
My American Creedmoor Cup. Only Black Powder & No Coaching of course, like men compete. Just you , your rifle and loads - the best you can create and 800 - 1000 yards of wind in front of you.

If granted wishes grew on trees I would go to Lodi. However, with Family, Mother's Day, and Responsibilities! ....Do you know what an 'obese possibility' is?
At this point in time I have to pick and choose. Maybe in my future.

[BrentD]

I just returned from the best match of the year.

Having shot both, personally, I can assure you, you have not.



My American Creedmoor Cup. Only Black Powder & No Coaching of course, like men compete. Just you , your rifle and loads - the best you can create and 800 - 1000 yards of wind in front of you.

Been there, done that. Will be doing it again this weekend in Oak Ridge. The "AAC" isn't the only place this happens. It happens at Lodi in the fall too.


If granted wishes grew on trees I would go to Lodi. However, with Family, Mother's Day, and Responsibilities! ....Do you know what an 'obese possibility' is?
At this point in time I have to pick and choose. Maybe in my future.

Hope to see you there one day.

[Chill Wills]

Having shot both, personally, I can assure you, you have not.




Been there, done that. Will be doing it again this weekend in Oak Ridge. The "AAC" isn't the only place this happens. It happens at Lodi in the fall too.



Hope to see you there one day.

Cliff and Mark are great and Maybe some day but it is a mixed bunch of powders and not a north face range plus it is a team shoot. I only have a mild interest. I have shot Oak Ridge a few times and might return soon but it is not a lot of shooting for the buck. Fun though! The AZ match....You and Rhoades are like oil and water so lets just stay on bullet alloy.

[Chill Wills]

Michael here is an example of bullets with and with out Antimony.
The three on the left is a "money" bullet I just picked up. It is a mix of pure foundry Lead 99.9% and one roll of no lead solder 95/5. 5% antimony in that 1 pound roll. The mix was 20# lead and one roll of solder. The ogive did swell enough that the lands did make very shallow marks on the bore section.
The two next to the GG are of the same mix. 20# lead one roll of solder. The top bullet is Brent's prolate the center is my .44 prolate I use in the .44-100 Rem.
The second photo I used for an example of the two prolates cast using 1/19 tin/lead. This will show you what that small percentage of antimony will do to your alloy mix.

That 20-1 is not hard enough for GG bullets with the big powder charges. The noses - you know.
The bore diameter bullet needs a window of hard but not too hard alloy to work but that is why I want to keep them out of this discussion. Groove diameter bullets - really, chamber-throat diameter bullets need to have a hardness threshold that they exceed to work well.

[Lead pot]

That 20-1 is not hard enough for GG bullets with the big powder charges. The noses - you know.
The bore diameter bullet needs a window of hard but not too hard alloy to work but that is why I want to keep them out of this discussion. Groove diameter bullets - really, chamber-throat diameter bullets need to have a hardness threshold that they exceed to work well.

You are right. 1/20 tin lead is not hard enough for a Money type of bullet. But you add a minute amount of antimony and it changes everything. The reason I injected the pictures of the PP bullets was to show you just what a change in the alloy does. The nose will stand as well for the PP as it will for the GG using the same alloy. You can get a GG to hard also and end up with gas cuts.

[BrentD]

Whatever Michael. I guess you will stick to your preconceived notions. Too bad. Those guys bent over backwards to accommodate all the folks all those who diss their match on the forums, who said they would come if they did, no one came.

Come try a match with out the celebrities and all the angst.

PS. some "real men" are shooting one of those so-called "manly matches" at Oak Ridge this weekend.

[Chill Wills]

You are right. 1/20 tin lead is not hard enough for a Money type of bullet. But you add a minute amount of antimony and it changes everything. The reason I injected the pictures of the PP bullets was to show you just what a change in the alloy does. The nose will stand as well for the PP as it will for the GG using the same alloy. You can get a GG to hard also and end up with gas cuts.

OK Kurt, I'm with you now. I have not done the math but quick and dirty the addition of 1/400th Sb makes the difference? Hmmm
Is it time stable?
How much harder is it?

With my current supply of old WW I can make my alloy for quite some time so my cost for 97.5-1-1.5 is very low.

I wonder at what point the ratio becomes critical, (example: 2% Tin - 1% Antimony 97% lead) and starts to show hardness changes over time. This is a problem if accuracy is tied to a window of hardness as in bore diameter bullets or hardness needs to exceed a defined level as in Groove diameter bullets.

You also write: "You can get a GG to hard also and end up with gas cuts."
Agreed but that can be worked out sometimes if the bullet is large enough to fully fit the case, or chamber or throat and make the seal. Yes?
I have worked hard with mold makers to cut molds to my numbers so they fit like I want.











-

[Chill Wills]

Come try a match with out the celebrities and all the angst.

PS. some "real men" are shooting one of those so-called "manly matches" at Oak Ridge this weekend.

Yup! I fully agree with that! Good people too!

I will be watching for your scores.
BTW- I sent Rick Weber an assortment of ML bullets this past year and he ended up buying a Brooks mold from me he thought worked well in his rifle. It so happens that it was the mold I used to supply bullets to Joe Hepsworth for his operation. It is a good design and I wish Rick well with it. Putting on matches is a lot of work and often goes un-noticed.

Good luck to you at Oak Ridge!

[Lead pot]

Michael this is the home work you and you alone will have to do.
I can only give you what I have worked with and I found what works for me with my loads and the way I load the shells I shoot. You can get answers form the folks that read what some one posted in the past and from books, but nothing replaces doing your own work with the rifles and loads you shoot.

Kurt

[Lead pot]

Where is oak ridge?

[BrentD]

Kurt, it's is in Tennessee, near Knoxville more or less. We leave tomorrow to get there early enough to help Rick rebuild some targets. Shooting starts Friday. This one is muzzleloaders. They call their own wind out there. They don't shoot North either.

I like cartridge rifles a little better but once the trigger is pulled it is all the same. I shoot exactly the same load in my ML as I do in my .45-70 long range rifle except a percussion cap for a primer.

[Lead pot]

Thank you.
There is some bad weather moving in that direction. I hope it's over by match time.

[BrentD]

It is supposed to be, but the forecasts are shifting around an awful lot. I believe that the plan is shoot Friday/Saturday, with Sunday a back up in the event of rain. Some of the details are a bit fuzzy to me, as I have only shot there one time, but it is a nice friendly, relaxed match. Quite different.

[Don McDowell]

Michael with the good ww's you have, I'm curious as to how the old #2 recipe spelled out in the Ideal handbooks, 9 lbs of wheelweight and 1 lb 50-50 bar solder would work on the long pointed bullets?

[Chill Wills]

Michael with the good ww's you have, I'm curious as to how the old #2 recipe spelled out in the Ideal handbooks, 9 lbs of wheelweight and 1 lb 50-50 bar solder would work on the long pointed bullets?

Don, It does not work. Somehow it may have way back when but I think even then it was a misprint. 90-5-5 can't be made with that as a base. Just play with the numbers and plug in what we want and it still does not work.

A real easy deal, if you were to spend money on foundry lead :shock: would be to order Lyman #2 from Rotometals. It is already even at 5%-5% Sb-Sn and then just add pure Pb to get what ever ratio we want.
When I blend up my stuff I -by design- use less tin in the mix so as not to exceed the Sb content that WW can provide. I am just concerned about having too much Tin and having problems.
Plus, I do not have the wish nor the time to test out every combo. Finding a few things that work and going with it is my limit right now.
That kinda speaks to Kirt's point of "Michael this is the home work you and you alone will have to do." but that is not in the works just now. So beating it around with other bullet cranks is as close is I am going to get this next few years.

I just had a thought, maybe I have not been clear, I am very pleased with the way 50-50+1% tin shoots! If I did not take this any farther, I am good! That is why I posted. To see what anyone else knows.:bigsmyl2:

[Chill Wills]

About 3 years ago, I melted down about 50 lbs of extra hard shot left over from my trapshooting days. Every webpost that I could find said "bad juju". Don't shoot antimony. The manufacturers website said the antimony content was between 4-7% antimony. It formed a very cottage cheese like dross that I skimmed off and then later found out that it was mostly SB. I don't know what my SB % was when I was finished but I then added 50% pure lead. As you can see, I have no clue what the final SB % is but I keep throwing in a couple of ingots in the pot when I melt down 20 lbs of 20-1 tin to lead. What I found is that even though the mix has a small amount of SB, it changes the crystal lattice structure. The bullets come out a dull silver with a crystalline look rather than the nice shiny look of straight 20-1. I've been shooting them for the last couple of years with no leading. I always pre-lube my bore before shooting
Now, the question is, what is it doing to help with nose slump if anything? I've read about age softening of bullets yet I've shot excellent scores with year old bullets.

Based on your description I think there might be more than enough Sb to balance with the Tin. I am not sure how much is "throwing in a couple of ingots". However, if this is the case, you likely will have bullet hardness that is time stable and I agree about using a lubed patch before starting any shooting to help prevent leading. This has made a big difference for me shoot GG bullets. This is a murky area to read anything and the one good metallurgy book I have lacks detail in this area.

[Don McDowell]

Thanks Michael , I do have some rotometal's #2, but it's what the 405 and the 35 rem really like so I'm sort of cautious about using it much, as it cost's so dang much anymore..

[Old-Win]

Can we take this in a little different direction? Many times, we jump on things that other shooters are using when they win a big match. When Doc won the Q using the now famous "money bullet", everybody started shooting one. I've tried them too but I have not seen the outstanding differences in elevation that everybody is proclaiming. Last fall, I shot one at Lodi and my sight differences were between 6-8 minutes different, but I can see those changes from one day to the next. Other guys I shoot with, have similar results. Here's another thing. With my PJ Sharps PP nose, I load 84 grs of 1 1/2. With the money bullet, 90 grs. Am I seeing the 6 minutes of improvement because of nose shape or increase in velocity? I'm not saying that the money bullets and prolates aren't any better because they have definitely proven themselves but could it be because of another reason? Could it be because their shape keeps them better balanced on the way to the target, especially the last 200 yds? I don't want to get into the CP or CG or magnus effect because I don't understand them. I'm just basing it on the 160 gr Sierra that when it slows down to a low velocity, it starts to cone and begins to tumble. Rotational rate halves as well.

[Chill Wills]

Michael this is the home work you and you alone will have to do.
I can only give you what I have worked with and I found what works for me with my loads and the way I load the shells I shoot. You can get answers form the folks that read what some one posted in the past and from books, but nothing replaces doing your own work with the rifles and loads you shoot.

Kurt
Good Morning Kurt, and all, I often go back and re-read posts and get a lot better meaning of what other posters are saying. Also, re-reading my posts tell me how I have not quite made myself clear. It's not like talking face to face but the internet is still getting like minded conversation going we did not have 20 years ago! So, forgive anything that might sound like "slights", there not intended.

Kurt, at this tine I do not not want to test or use tin rich alloys. Just the opposite; I am looking for ways to shoot the Antimony rich scrap so easily found and which I have so much of.

You have pound solder rolls and you have found good results using it, so I ask here, do you track hardness of this "20 to 1 roll of solder" alloy? Does it stabilize after casting and then hold at that point? That would be interesting to me because I am of the belief that there can be problems with alloys that are more Sn than Sb. In fact I know there is BUT maybe not at the ratio you are making.

As for me, I am near the end of my testing and am good to go with what I have. My GG bullets hold there noses to the extent I can tell by the target. My match shooting scores support this. My metal supply is good for my of alloy, in other words, I do not have to start buying things I don't have. Using this 50-50+1, has mostly stopped the HOT weather leading issues I get using 16-1 Pb-Sn. So now I am going to the forum to see what anyone else might know about this. DanT and I covered this some years ago but it takes me much longer to do my own work because I have basically no time, or more to the point, the time I have is spread out with family taking most of it.

I thank you for all the posts and photos you have given us. And thank you for sharing freely your data!

[Old-Win]

Here's another thing. While checking the scores from this spring's creedmoor and cup match, I looked at some of the loads that the winners were using. I was surprised at the powder charges. Eron was using 88 gr, Dave was using 81 gr, Zack 78 gr, and Doc 77 gr. Nothing that I would really call stout loads but they worked because those guys really know how to shoot and they've put the time in to get there.
Everybody tries to find the little bit of edge that will put them on top. So I guess my question is this? How much have bullet shapes, hardness, velocities, twists and any other things tried make those big improvements or is it because of the time and effort those guys have put in? The last time, I went to Phoenix, Doc was on fire and won everything but I also remember him saying that he already had several thousand rds down range that spring before going. Brent, I've watched you grow from a good shooter to a great shooter and you've put in an awful lot of time and effort to get there. Certainly more than most of us and you deserve your rewards.

[Chill Wills]

Here's another thing. While checking the scores from this spring's creedmoor and cup match, I looked at some of the loads that the winners were using. I was surprised at the powder charges. Eron was using 88 gr, Dave was using 81 gr, Zack 78 gr, and Doc 77 gr. Nothing that I would really call stout loads but they worked because those guys really know how to shoot and they've put the time in to get there.

Bingo
These are the guys and others like Rick Moritz and Lige Harris that wrapped their lives around shooting. No kids or never had them, actual regular practice, even the new computer shooting aids. They are committed and arranged their life to do so.
Others of us are not there but may be someday.
As for myself, My practice is the few matches I shoot a year. Also, those you mention shoot as teams and are very hard to beat as a team when some of us shoot all matches as a single-no coaching entry. It is clearly reflected in the scores. Some of these guys won't even come to a match if their coach can not come.

[Gunlaker]

I noticed the same thing about the power charges listed for the Creedmoor Cup.

Michael, do you know how your alloy fares vs. the standard 16:1 for something like a .40 cal Money bullet pushed reasonably hard in a .40-65? If they are comparable then I'll keep the alloy experiments for later. I'm going to use the plain old Saeco #740 for the midrange match in Worland in May, but if I can get this Money bullet figured out I'll probably use it for the Midrange match in Byers later in the year. I've shot it last year with 16:1 but only with FFFg Express which is perhaps hard on the nose. This year I've got Swiss 1.5 and OE 1.5 to play with too.

thanks,

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Good Morning Kurt, and all, I often go back and re-read posts and get a lot better meaning of what other posters are saying. Also, re-reading my posts tell me how I have not quite made myself clear. It's not like talking face to face but the internet is still getting like minded conversation going we did not have 20 years ago! So, forgive anything that might sound like "slights", there not intended. Michael I haven't seen anything that I took as "slights". My German gets in the way and I have a hard time getting my thoughts down using a keyboard.

Kurt, at this tine I do not not want to test or use tin rich alloys. Just the opposite; I am looking for ways to shoot the Antimony rich scrap so easily found and which I have so much of. I use a lot of it also.

You have pound solder rolls and you have found good results using it, so I ask here, do you track hardness of this "20 to 1 roll of solder" alloy? Does it stabilize after casting and then hold at that point? That would be interesting to me because I am of the belief that there can be problems with alloys that are more Sn than Sb. In fact I know there is BUT maybe not at the ratio you are making. Michael I don't have a reliable lead tester that I can rely on to give me a precise reading. All I have is a Saeco and Lee. either one is worth a hill of beans for a true reading so I cant say if one alloy is stable over time or not. One thing I will say, right now I have over nine thousand bullets cast for this shooting season. This is an average that I cast every winter and some don't get used and might lay around for several years, like the GG I seldom shoot but I cast them for guests that want to shoot my rifles and I will load them for them because they are a little more friendly for them to use then the PP. I don't see any difference how they shoot old or newly cast. And I see no difference the way they look with nose setback or depth of the land cuts on the bullet shanks. I don't concern myself with alloy stability. Old loads 7-8 years old shoot just as well as the fresh cast the night before.

As for me, I am near the end of my testing and am good to go with what I have. My GG bullets hold there noses to the extent I can tell by the target. My match shooting scores support this. My metal supply is good for my of alloy, in other words, I do not have to start buying things I don't have. Using this 50-50+1, has mostly stopped the HOT weather leading issues I get using 16-1 Pb-Sn. So now I am going to the forum to see what anyone else might know about this. DanT and I covered this some years ago but it takes me much longer to do my own work because I have basically no time, or more to the point, the time I have is spread out with family taking most of it. :) :) Testing and curiosity never ends :) for me anyway :) It started back in about 1953 and sofar it has not stopped. This year I have recovered almost 19 pounds of bullets of all types of alloys, calibers, and shapes. Wad stacks, powder loads, seating depth's. Wad material has a greater effect on bullets as well as the powder loads used. You can shoot the best prolate or "money" bullets and have then come out of the muzzle looking like a postell or creedmoor ogive if you don't get it right.

I thank you for all the posts and photos you have given us. And thank you for sharing freely your data! Your welcome. Kurt

Have a good day. Kurt

[BrentD]

I've tried them too but I have not seen the outstanding differences in elevation that everybody is proclaiming. Last fall, I shot one at Lodi and my sight differences were between 6-8 minutes different, but I can see those changes from one day to the next. Other guys I shoot with, have similar results. Here's another thing. With my PJ Sharps PP nose, I load 84 grs of 1 1/2. With the money bullet, 90 grs. Am I seeing the 6 minutes of improvement because of nose shape or increase in velocity? I'm not saying that the money bullets and prolates aren't any better because they have definitely proven themselves but could it be because of another reason? Could it be because their shape keeps them better balanced on the way to the target, especially the last 200 yds? I don't want to get into the CP or CG or magnus effect because I don't understand them. I'm just basing it on the 160 gr Sierra that when it slows down to a low velocity, it starts to cone and begins to tumble. Rotational rate halves as well.

bob, with respect to the sight elevation changes with paper patches, I agree with you that paper patches are way overrated. Reports of huge differences in elevations are generally not valid because one can't simply make a conclusion from a single sight setting.

Since I don't shoot grease grooves, i can't say alot about how large the differences really ar,e but for a valid comparison, one would want to look at the elevation changes between two known zeros for each bullet. Say the difference between a 200 yds zero and a 1000 yds zero, compute that difference for each bullet and compare. But no one seems to do that.

I have measured BCs for my bullets. They are generally in the 0.5-0.55 range. That is very comparable to what is reported on the various forums for grease groove bullets. Certainly the differences are not enough to result in the 15 minutes less wind that some "windy" people claim in the public venues.

I have never claimed that PPB are more accurate or advantageous at the firing line - just that they make you look better :)

[Chill Wills]

We sure are all Alpha Wolfs!
The attraction for us must be the challenge and demands of BPTR Creedmoor game.

And, some amongst us wear their heart on their sleeve. [smilie=l:

I gota put this away and get some work done - :razz:
(Chris- I'll get back to you)
Thanks!

[Old-Win]

Brent,
I probably created some confusion when I mentioned the PJ Sharps paper patched nose in another post. About 8 years ago, I had Paul cut me two greasers; one at 1.42" for my 45-70 and one at 1.45" for my 45-90. They have the Sharps PP nose profile rather than his Creedmoor nose and are ellipticals rather than bore riders. That's what I've been using up until last fall when I tried the Baco money and saw very little difference in elevation change. Your slicks are pretty though and they definitely work.:razz:

[Chill Wills]

I noticed the same thing about the power charges listed for the Creedmoor Cup.
Michael, do you know how your alloy fares vs. the standard 16:1 for something like a .40 cal Money bullet pushed reasonably hard in a .40-65? If they are comparable then I'll keep the alloy experiments for later. I'm going to use the plain old Saeco #740 for the midrange match in Worland in May, but if I can get this Money bullet figured out I'll probably use it for the Midrange match in Byers later in the year. I've shot it last year with 16:1 but only with FFFg Express which is perhaps hard on the nose. This year I've got Swiss 1.5 and OE 1.5 to play with too. thanks, Chris.

Hey Chris, If you are asking about the 16-1 being good enough for the 40 cal MB as a GG bullet? Yes, it is more than good. And, so is the 3-metal (pb-sn-sb) we have been talking about. If you don't have the 3-metal alloy or don't want to start with something new, the 16-1 is as good as it ever was. Stick with it.

If you are shooting PP bullets in the 40 I am not much help at this time. I look forward to seeing you this summer at Byers and between now and then maybe I can pick your brain about the PP rifle you have - which has a chamber like the one I have.

[John Boy]

The last was made with three parts of Lyman #2 and seven parts of pure lead.
When Dan made the post I gave it a try and found the combination to produce good looking slumped bullets.
I make up the Lyman #2 with either WW's @ Bhn 15.4 plus PB or PB and Linotype
Bhn 15.4 WW plus 1/2 percent of tin also produces a nice accurate slumped bullet

[Lead pot]

I dug out some GG money bullets I tested when I got the mould to find the alloy I was going to use for this bullet.
The rifle used for this was a .45-90 Shiloh with a standard chamber.
The bullets marked solder is Oatey 95/5 no lead 95% tin 5% antimony. I also used 95/5 Tin/Copper solder and I like it better then the former. It lowers the melting point a little and it seems to cut down on bore smears using it over antimony in a GG bullet. But I need to look into this a little deeper.
If you watch the sales flyers at Menards or the other lumber yards you can get the solder for less then tin from the foundry's and the purity is higher then what you might get from the so called pure.
This picture will give you an idea just what little antimony added will do to the bullet. Less is sometimes better then more.
I will make this my last addition.

Kurt

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_1295_zpsc27099f7.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_1295_zpsc27099f7.jpg.html)

[kokomokid]

Many thanks Kurt.

[Gunlaker]

Michael, I'll stick to the 16:1 alloy for now then. I've got some loaded up with OE 1.5 and will see how that does. Those will probably have to wait a few weeks until after the Tacoma schuetzen match. I'm not going to touch another rifle except my .32-40 until after the match. I find that when I switch around too much I have to re-learn how to hold the rifle :-)

My brain might not be worth picking, with respect to the new rifle. We will see how it, and I, perform when it counts. It does shoot well for me at 200m. Likely I'll get to shoot it at 500m in May I think.

I look forward to meeting you at Byers. I imagine that Don might be there too?

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Yup , be at Byers, also have sent entries for Worland.

[Chill Wills]

Kurt

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_1295_zpsc27099f7.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_1295_zpsc27099f7.jpg.html)

Kurt, the information you provide represents a great deal of time and effort! Thank you for your willingness to share. I would not have thought to test the difference in 20-1 and 20-1 solder with the 1/400th Sb. I would have jumped to the conclusion that that little bit of Sb gets lost in the background noise. I am still marveling at how it holds.

One answer begs more questions and I won't ask.

Because I am off persuing a different alloy I better stick with it rather than dilute my focus. What I am doing works fine for me in my current applications but you have really gave me something to think about!
I hope to see you somewhere this year!
-Michael

[Gunlaker]

Yup , be at Byers, also have sent entries for Worland.

Good stuff. I guess I'll see you at both. Worland will be the first lengthy road trip for our little Shasta trailer. That should be a learning experience in itself :-) :-)


Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Looking forward to meeting you after all these years and the conversations on all these forums. Think we first started talking about this stuff on the BSB Boyz,,

[SWAGE-X]

Kurt, the information you provide represents a great deal of time and effort! Thank you for your willingness to share. I would not have thought to test the difference in 20-1 and 20-1 solder with the 1/400th Sb. I would have jumped to the conclusion that that little bit of Sb gets lost in the background noise. I am still marveling at how it holds.

One answer begs more questions and I won't ask.

Because I am off persuing a different alloy I better stick with it rather than dilute my focus. What I am doing works fine for me in my current applications but you have really gave me something to think about!
I hope to see you somewhere this year!
-Michael
Chill

Kurt always does this!!!:razz::razz::razz:
Thnx Lots
Bob:veryconfu

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Cartridge: 45-110 powder Charge 110.8 grs FG Express compressed .385 with .060 veg fiber wad, plus .060 poly wad plus .092 cork wad. Load is same with both bullets exactly.
bullet 525 gr NASA chrono's avg 1398 fps 200 yard zero .045 1 mile zero 3.76
bullet 538 gr Money PP .446 diam Chrono's avg 1381 fps 200 yard Zero .041 1 mile zero 3.38.
Rechecked Zeros when I was home the other day the Money bullet was from memory on the 200 yard Zero, was my scope not irons setting.
KW

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Interesting, no response on the data, shared on PP vrs GG.
kW

[Don McDowell]

Kenny I experience those elevation difference's when going back and forth from patched to greasers. Most noticeably the other day shooting the 525 gr. 444 money bullet, and the 535JM3 greaser money bullet. 6grs weight difference, same powder charge, same rifle, the patched bullet used 15 minutes less elevation at 800 yds.