Weld-Guard Anti-spatter Paste as a lube ingredient

[303Guy]

This anti-spatter paste prevents molten steel spatter from adhering to other metal surfaces so I got to wondering whether it would be a useful anti-leading ingredient in boolit lube. Some lubes call for petroleum jelly as a softening agent so why not use the anti-spatter instead? Both have very little lubricating qualities.

[DougGuy]

I bet you could use it for BP just like it is!

[big bore 99]

That's all it is. Vaseline and blue dye. Good to dip your MIG torch it to keep it clean too.

[303Guy]

If Vaseline works as an anti-spatter then I guess I should be testing it. I just never thought it did anything more than soften lubes. In fact, I thought it diluted the real lubes in the mix. Of course it does have lube properties, just not as much as say caster oil.

Some nozzle dips are toxic and can cause liver, blood and eye issues. Others are non-toxic and biodegradable. The ones I've used are non-flammable and do not migrate when hot and don't resemble Vaseline. The Weld-Guard I have is a BOC product. I also have WorldFix nozzle dip which melts in the heat of a car in the sun. Does Vaseline melt in that heat?

My thinking is that if there is some lead deposit, the nozzle dip might prevent it from adhering and building up. Also, if the stuff adheres to metal it might make the lube more effective, specially at the farther reaches of the bore near the muzzle.

[igolfat8]

I wonder how the anti-spatter would work on the internals of a compensator? I am constantkly fighting lead build up in mine.

[runfiverun]

Vaseline's melt point is about 100-f.

igolf:
a wetter lube may help the brake, it might also affect your groups.
I'd try a different tact to your alloy selection or a little larger diameter.
if you are blowing lead into a break it's caused by gas blow-by on the boolit, you are gas cutting the boolit carrying the deposits into the air.
are you getting deposits in the gas tube?
if not then I'd say you are having the issue pop up closer to the muzzle from either too much pressure there, or your pressure is dropping off after the gas tube takes some gas off.
the boolit is then relaxing and allowing the gas cutting to take place.

[igolfat8]

The comp is on a 5" pistol not a rifle. I doubt its gas cutting. I am .0025" over slug OD. I would think its vaporized lead from the base of the Boolits being deposited in the comp ports as the gas exits behind the bullet?

[303Guy]

I doubt there would be any lead being vaporized off the boolit bases. Maybe off the trailing edge but then that's off the shank. I've collected a 'few' boolits from my 'test tube' and have seen no evidence to suggest lead vaporization from the boolit bases. From the shanks maybe. I had a 44 magnum and was shooting wheel weight mix which was quite hard and cast real good - nice and shiny and all. I recovered one one day and found the boolit had been gas eroded between the groove impressions to the extent that the groove impressions were almost proud. That's a lot of lead removal and if that were happening in your case you might very likely have the source of lead build up in the compensator.

[BAGTIC]

If you are getting that much erosion it is likely due to bullet being too small to begin. The erosion is caused by high velocity gas flow but in order for the gas to flow there must be a pathway. An undersized bullet provides that pathway for the gas to exploit and enlarge.

[John Boy]

PHYSICAL PROPERTIES
Appearance & Colour Opaque, white acidic gel, pungent acidic odour
http://www.callingtonhaven.com/_assets/welding_metal_treatment/s-weld_clean.pdf


I got to wondering whether it would be a useful anti-leading ingredient in boolit lube.
Be my guest using the product as a lube component ... and when it eats the bores out, don't come to the forum whining ... I screwed up.
303guy - In the future, before 'wondering', look up the MSDS's on products instead of making a post with no basis of fact of what it is made of!

[Grump]

John Boy, does your post mean that you read the OP and just dived in with the ol' "Why NOT????" attitude and no further investigation?

If so, not the first time one of us chased an idea and lost a barrel because of it... but having a barrel die is still something that no one should have to live through except when caused by nothing more than lots of rounds downrange.

[Dan Cash]

I think we should bow down to John Boy's irrefutable superior and always helpful knowledge. Thank you John, for reminding us that we should never throw an idea on the table without at least Master Thesis level of peer reviewed research.

[MBTcustom]

Now before everybody goes dog piling 303guy, the stuff John boy mentions is a pickling agent. Not and anti spatter paste.

Leme esplane da diffinse:

An anti spatter paste is applied to the metal before welding to prevent all the little boogers, BBs, and titties from sticking to the metal surrounding the weld. This is just blow off from a stick or MIG welding process.

The pickling agent John Boy jumped on is a completely different substance used after completing a weld using a TIG torch. In this situation, the TIG leaves an absolutely beautiful bead in the work that's just as pretty as a row of dimes, but the steel is horribly discolored from the heat. The pickling agent is used to clean that color off the welded area making it look presentable. It is an acid of sorts, but there are basal solutions as well. Neither of which should be applied to carbon steel.

But 303guy wasn't suggesting that at all.
Now it's true that 303guy didn't read the MSDS nor do much research, but it's laughable that he's getting pounded and chastised for it by a bunch of guys who didn't read nor understand his OP! LOL!

Read fellers!
Read, comprehend, then post! (trust me, I need a freakin sticky note on my monitor that says that, especially before my morning coffee has kicked in!) We all do it.

Here's the site where you can easily see the difference between these two chemicals:
http://www.bocworldofwelding.com.au/media/pdf/WELDING%20ACCESSORIES-Metal%20Treatment%20Chemicals.pdf

[John Boy]

Again - without a doubt, I'll pass also putting hydrofluoric & nitric acid in or on any of my firearms!

Specifications
Weld-Guard ™
Pickling Gel contains 50g/L hydrofluoric acid and 300g/L nitric acid
– refer to Technical Data and Material Safety
Data Sheet (MSDS).
IM

[Whiterabbit]

Hydrofluoric acid? No thanks. Scary, scary stuff. I'm always on the look out for consumer products that contain HF so I can stay the heck away. I'll add pickling agent to that list. I can live with a visible heat affected zone!

HF is the one chemical we expressly keep spill kits scattered around work for. Hydrides? nah. arsenic? nah. Cyanides? nah. HF? Better stock up on spill kits.

second place only to a google image search of war wounds, are HF burns.

[303Guy]

How did we jump from anti-spatter to pickling gel?
Again - without a doubt, I'll pass also putting hydrofluoric & nitric acid in or on any of my firearms!

Specifications

Pickling Gel contains 50g/L hydrofluoric acid and 300g/L nitric acid
– refer to Technical Data and Material Safety
Data Sheet (MSDS).
IMWeld-Guard ™ is a company name, not a product. The product you mention is pickling gel. And for y'all's information, I did indeed read the MSDS for the stuff I was talking about. It is a non-toxic, non-flammable product marketed by BOC called Weld-Guard.

From post #4 on 22/03/2015
Some nozzle dips are toxic and can cause liver, blood and eye issues. Others are non-toxic and biodegradable. The ones I've used are non-flammable and do not migrate when hot and don't resemble Vaseline. The Weld-Guard I have is a BOC product. I also have WorldFix nozzle dip which melts in the heat of a car in the sun. See? I did read the MSDS's. :mrgreen:

Some anti-spatter products are toxic and say so on the container, never mind the MSDS. One being Weld-Aid Heavy Duty Nozzle Dip Gel made in Detroit. http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/instr-shop/SDS/Nozzle%20Dip.pdf

So no, there is nothing dodgy about the suggestion or question regarding the use of nozzle anti-spatter in boolit lube provided you live in a health regulated country and you read the warning labels on the container.

By the way, one of the properties of anti-spatter is the prevention of corrosion.

CRC Weld Anti-Spatter is an advanced technology lubricant formulated with a blend of release agents to prevent welding spatter from permanently adhering to surrounding metal surfaces. - See more at: http://www.crc.co.nz/Automotive-Lubricants--Penetrants-Specialty-Lubricants/p1/Weld-Anti-Spatter-iec6b5bd6-9209-457f-8268-772c48766480-6551.htm#sthash.nLAXH44H.dpufIn contrast to;

PHYSICAL PROPERTIES
Appearance & Colour Opaque, white acidic gel, pungent acidic odour
http://www.callingtonhaven.com/_asse...weld_clean.pdf (http://www.callingtonhaven.com/_assets/welding_metal_treatment/s-weld_clean.pdf)
[FONT=sans-serif][COLOR=#333333]
That's Stainless Steel Pickling Gel ! It will undoubtedly bring out the shine on a stainless steel barrel. Or corrode little pits in it. Stainless steel can contain hydrofluoric acid quite fine. Where it gets attacked is just alongside the welds in a thin crack like zone where the alloy structure has changed. It also depends on the grade of stainless steel.

Hydrofluoric acid will not burn your skin or anything like that but what it will do is penetrate your flesh and dissolve your bones! It also makes your fingernails come off. Not straight away, mind you. I kid you not.

What gives us a clue as to the intended purpose of the stuff mentioned here and what it does is the "white acidic gel" part. ;)

[303Guy]

So moving on. I tested a mix with weld guard anti-spatter paste and it seems to work just fine. I left the bore for a few days and no corrosion although leaving a barrel after firing is never a good idea. I cannot say that the anti-spatter played any beneficial roll though. I'll be repeating the test without the anti-spatter and see how it compares.

That's anti-spatter paste, not pickling paste. :mrgreen:

I had been using a high candle wax and STP lube for jacketeds in a rough bore and never had any copper fouling and it protected the bore. It didn't work so well for cast.

[Grump]

Well, now, no direct response from John Boy on my question. Perhaps he is so much smarter than anyone in the room that he hasn't used the referenced PICKLING agent in a boolit lube.

My bad for not following his reference far enough to see he was well past the non in non-sequitur. Like the Wizard's toady said, that's a horse of a difference color.

So my vote is that John Boy gets the July Reading Comprehension Award, Booby-Prize edition.

If he comes back here again with blathering that does not follow the argument but instead completely misses the point, I'd be ready with a ban-hammer if his third post is as lucid and responsive as his second was. Our friends here had made things perfectly clear (apologies to those who remember Nixon...) before John Boy's brilliant follow-up post.

Meh.

[John Boy]

John Boy, does your post mean that you read the OP and just dived in with the ol' "Why NOT????" attitude and no further investigation?

So my vote is that John Boy gets the July Reading Comprehension Award, Booby-Prize edition.
Grump and others use what you want but in the future, OP may want to test and provide support for wiz bang new ingredients that they are the only one that thinks they found the Rosetta Stone.

I cannot say that the anti-spatter played any beneficial roll though. I'll be repeating the test without the anti-spatter and see how it compares.Be sure to provide complete details of each lube ingredients how it compares because there are many lubes and those that survive are used by many not just one or two. Hope it works but I'll stay with lube ingredients that are proven

[John Boy]

Here's CRC's MSDS on Anti spatter paste. I wouldn't eat it but otherwise except for CO & Co2 - looks harmless except it smells like a petroleum product. Does have a high ignition point that indicates it's a stable product
http://www.crceurope.com/wwwcrc/msds/pdf/Anti-spatter_Paste_Bulk-EN_BDS000748_3_20150325.PDF

[Grump]

Big, big difference between throwing out an idea for discussion and claiming you've discovered the Rosetta Stone.

So, John Boy, you using StarMetal's lube with Navy Wax by chance? That stuff is quite proven as I understand it, hard to replicate with beeswax instead of Navy Wax without scorching it. Only recently has its general composition become known.

The testing continues. I plan to watch with interest, even though this particular product seems to really not be that much different from several other proven lube components.

[John Boy]

So, John Boy, you using StarMetal's lube with Navy Wax by chance?
Grump, never hear of Starmetal's lube with Navy wax nor is Navy wax on the Internet. Care to prove a reference with the chemical composition of Navy Wax, it's source plus the hydro carbon chain of the stuff with it's melting temperature?
re: finding a lube that works for both smokeless & black powder, I am happy with a combination of:
* pure sheep tallow
* micro crystalline wax
* ozokerite
* lanolin
I have used it for about 5 years now for lead bullet reloads ... 25-20 up to 50-70, including 220 Swift's at 3250 fps. No lube starvation, no lead in the bores and it is semi viscous at 132 F and melts at 147 F. And the nice thing about this lube it is tacky like NASA lube probably because of the ozokerite

Grump, I forgot to ask, please be sure to send me my Award-Framed! Postage is also on you

[303Guy]

* pure sheep tallow
* micro crystalline wax
* ozokerite
* lanolin Might I ask the proportions?

[Elkins45]

Might I ask the proportions?

And also which microcrystalline wax? Any lube that works at 3200fps is one I'm interested in.

[Grump]

Here's CRC's MSDS on Anti spatter paste. I wouldn't eat it but otherwise except for CO & Co2 - looks harmless except it smells like a petroleum product. Does have a high ignition point that indicates it's a stable product
http://www.crceurope.com/wwwcrc/msds/pdf/Anti-spatter_Paste_Bulk-EN_BDS000748_3_20150325.PDF

So in light of post #16 from 303Guy, and #13 from goodsteel, is this a withdrawal of your first post, #10, and your second, #14? It seems pretty clear from this thread drift that no one here has EVER suggested using an acid-bearing component in boolit lube.

As far as StarMetal's lube, it's a soap-bearing lube mixed at high temperature and the "Navy Wax" it contains was from a bulk purchase of pallet(s?) of the stuff more than 10 years ago from the Fallon Navy Air Station. Google " "navy wax" lube " and you'll find a thread which discusses it. And go through the massive "extreme lube" thread here and just find on the page every reference to starmetal or navy and you will find out what I'm referring to.

Now since you have recently reported that your blend works well with both high-speed smokeless loads AND black powder, and I understand that such is quite a feat for a single lube, PLEASE report your mix in the extreme lube thread so others can test it. The lube alchemists there have launched boolits at all sorts of temperatures from all sorts of firearms searching for one that works everywhere, in the smokeless loads arena. No first-round flyers, groups stay small and round for 20+ shots, no cold-bore flyers, first shot from a cold dirty bore remains in the rest of the group, no "purge flyers" at any temperature as number of shots proceeds, etc. As I understand it, only the StarMetal lube and a similar soap-based "SL-68" version have satisfied the quest.

If you have a lube that does all that, PLUS good BP performance, let's move this part of the discussion there.

As far as the anti-splatter stuff, I for one will watch the testing with interest. It's a "what if" inquiry worthy of pursuit, and if anyone claims some mix using it IS the Rosetta Stone, plenty of us here will be able to test it out and either replicate or falsify those claims.

But is seems pretty obvious now that no one is suggesting we put a corrosive welding product into our lubes.

When the vote for July is taken, I would be happy to send you your certificate IF you win. But I don't know the current status of nominations.

[John Boy]

Re: the now-Unobtanium "Navy Wax" surplussed out of Fallon NAS, perhaps the heart of the UN-reproduceable but first proven "Extreme" lube, the lengendary StarMetal mix of a bit more than a decade ago...
Grump, per your post, if Navy Wax is "now-Unobtanium" and the "Extreme" lube is "UN-reproduceable" ... why even bother with a lube from the past? Maybe using anti-spatter will resurrect something close. From my side of the aisle, I'll continue to use my lube and if it is developed and is proven to be better I'll give it a try for smokeless reloads only because I won't use any biodegradable oil (petroleum) ingredients shooting black powder due to the foul hardness it creates. Until then - 303Guy, Wishing You Success ...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?148746-quot-Extreme-quot-boolit-lube-The-Quest&p=3138910&viewfull=1#post3138910



(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?148746-quot-Extreme-quot-boolit-lube-The-Quest&p=3138910&viewfull=1#post3138910)

[Grump]

John Boy:

RTFP!!! READ the Fabulous Post, my friend!

Two lubes have passed, ONE contain Unobtainium. But some of us have studied the few clues on the makeup of the "Navy Wax" in hopes that a blend of differing meltpoint microwaxes might duplicate its performance. So, yeah, I will be happy to discuss Einstein's Relative and Special Relativity theories from the past, even if his brain is now unobtanium. I belive in learning from the past.

Since the ringleaders of the Extreme Lube Quest have taken a break and in some measure wandered off to another forum, I suspect that their collective/individual testing has produced probably at least one other successful formula for an "Extreme" lube. A beeswax-bearing SL-68 variant is reported to show promise, but I don't like that because it puts us right back into the production challenges of mixing in a natural product that starts to burn something like 80-90° F below the full melt/blend point of the soap used. Playing around with "crash cooling" of a pot full of stuff well over 400°F is something I prefer to avoid.

But I don't remember any of them being tested for use with black powder. So let's move the discussion over there, please.

BTW, the last post over there, from JonB_in_Glencoe sure seems to say that his SL-68B blend is the third success in the Extreme Quest. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?148746-quot-Extreme-quot-boolit-lube-The-Quest/page151