Sanity Check: 43 Spanish Reformado

[Hogpost]

I need a sanity check before I spend money and time. Currently I reload and shoot 11x52R Beaumont, 11.7x58R Danish, and 11x60R Mauser. Just acquired a Spanish Oviedo rolling block carbine in very nice condition. Markings indicate it has been rechambered to the Reformado cartridge, and a chamber cast verifies this.

43 Spanish brass is available, but not Reformado. But, since the Reformado was essentially a 43 Spanish blown out to remove the shoulder and accommodate the large brass-jacketted bullet, I should be able to fire-form 43 Spanish to Reformado, yes? All the dimensions imply it; and Barnes says it can be done but that was 50 years ago and Barnes is not totally free from errors.

Does this fireform project seem right?

And if so, would you recommend Jamison/CapTech or Bertram brass? Softer is better!

Thanks!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

This should work out, but I would look into the rimmed version of the modern German 6.5x68 case. I hve some of these which I bought for forming the 7.7x60R.

(This is a case in point for Barnes's errors, because various cartridge books and my Loads from a Disk program parrot one another in giving it a 2.49in. case length. my rifle needs 2.36in., and guess what 60mm. equals?)

There is no use giving prices, since I bought mine long ago. But it was quite a bit cheaper than Bertram, and it is about as tough as modern brass gets.

[EDG]

Hogpost
How about some actual numbers?
You need the ID of your chamber just ahead of the rim.
You need the OD of your proposed brass just ahead of the rim.

For an ideal fit the brass should have .002" to .005" clearance.
With low pressures the mismatch can have more clearance but above .008 clearance is getting into short case life and black powder pressures.

[Hogpost]

I think I just answered my own question. Spain was famous for reloading their ammo, often many times. Most government issue 43 Spanish or Reformado cartridges that have survived until today show obvious signs, such as flattened headstamps, and folded rims that have been pounded thinner but larger in diameter. At a gunshow today, I bought an issue Reformado round (with the brass-jacket bullet) that has clearly been formed from the earlier cartridge. You can see the outline and stressmarks where the 43 Spanish shoulder formerly was.

Nonetheless, I was asked for specific numbers. As I said in the original post, all the dimensions seem to match, but here goes:

43 Spanish, measured from new issue cartridges, which correspond to the official drawing: Base dia 518/520, rim dia 629/630, rim thk .084/.085


Reformado cartridge, measured from a number in my collection, all government reloaded: Base dia 521/528, rim dia 641/651, rim thk 082/085

My chamber: Base dia .533, rim dia clearance.663, rim thk clearance .090.

All these numbers are within reason for an 1880’s European blackpowder weapon, especially one made and re-worked by multiple arsenals all over the world.

So, I think I’m good to go, but I’d still like any comparative experience between the two current makes of 43 Spanish brass. (BTW, I will only fire this carbine with black powder, as the original; no smokeless, no substitutes)

[EDG]

I have neither of the brands of the cases but the Jamison brass seems to have an excellent reputation. Bertram brass, in the many forums I have visited, has never really had a good comment made about it.
You might go to one of the BPCR forums where there are a lot of .43 Spanish shooters. BPCR.net is one.

[ascast]

FWIW- I don't think you will have any trouble in that plan. You might want to shim the brass on the underside, near the base if you foresee a big difference in "before fire" brass and chamber. Just makes the final product NOT have that pregnant guppy look.
good luck and keep us posted

[toot]

I have a 43 Reformado carbine and a long rifle. I make 43 Spanish rounds out of 8m/m LEBEL and 348 WINCHESTER. and do as the SPANISH did they shot 43 SPANISH in the REFORMADO,S be cause they captured 43 SPANISH ammo and it can be shot with out any increased pressure be cause of the smaller bullet. not the best of accuracy but will still kill. just my 2 cents worth.

[texasloader]

Not really sure how to properly load reformado. I went with the listed for regular .43 spanish but every one of them squibbed on me. not enough back pressure to fireform. Any thoughts what I did wrong?

[skeettx]

Use black powder, and keep a bucket of soapy water handy
Shoot the cartridges and drop the cases into the water.
You really need to move near to Amarillo :)
Mike

[Hogpost]

Not really sure how to properly load reformado. I went with the listed for regular .43 spanish but every one of them squibbed on me. not enough back pressure to fireform. Any thoughts what I did wrong?

Here are the notes I made after successfully reforming:

Bullet, closest I could get: .446 dia 385 grain flat nose RCBS from Montana

Flare the case heavily to accept the bullet; leave the flare after loading
A. The flare will help to center the case mouth upon firing
B. Neck tension will be sufficient to hold the bullet in a single shot

65 grains Scheutzen FFFG, vibrated to settle; level is just below base of bottleneck
topped with 18.5 grains Cream of Wheat (compresses easily)
COW serves as filler for reduced powder load
COW also serves as gas-check/obturation wad
COW also reduces (sweeps out) fouling and polishes the barrel

Load to COAL 3.00”; no crimping, leave funnel mouth in place. Fire-form
Result: perfect!

Hope this helps

[ozarkeod]

I've had safe and successful shooting with my Reformado converted Remington RB using .457 dia .346 gr bullets sized down to .454 and tumble-lubed over 1/2 sheet toilet paper wad pressed down on 22 grains of XPM 5744 smokeless. Strictly a 100yd load that nicely rings a 12" steel plate (on my good days) and nice and easy cleanup afterwards. Have 4 reloads on Bertram brass without cracks so far, but with the 379gr bullets thru a .43 Remington RB carbine I have only gotten 3 reloads with Bertram cases so I mostly stick to the lighter bullets like 255 gr .454 dia. sized to .446.

Most of the above I got from Croft Barker's book "Shooting the .43 Spanish RB" which gives smokeless and black loads plus a lot of good advice.

[17nut]

Found this in Quickload

243631

[cas]

I loaded for a Refomado for a while and was never happy with it. Sold the gun because of it. Were I to do it all over again, I'd look into getting it rechambered to something else, something with a traditional shoulder/neck.

[toot]

OK, so after blowing out 43 SPANISH to 43 REFORMADO, how does one go about reloading them? I have seen 43 SPANISH DIES, bit none in the 43 REFORMADO CAL! as I have a REFORMADO RIFLE & a CARBINE and would like to shoot them.

[skeettx]

I have RCBS Reformado dies

WE are in Amarillo, Texas

[toot]

Hogpost,so you are using a 43 SPANISH case as a parent case?

[toot]

Croft Bakers soft cover book is over $150.00 now!

[toot]

Skeettx, can you post information on the REFORMATO DIES?

[Rich/WIS]

C&H lists Reformado dies in their product line. Donnely's book on cartridge conversions say fire form 43 Spanish.

[skeettx]

I was mistaken, they are C-H and not RCBS

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/68965_1000x600.jpg

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/68966_1000x600.jpg

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/68967_1000x600.jpg

[skeettx]

4-D info

https://www.ch4d.com/products/dies/caliber-list?page=22

3 Die Set: $178.64
FL Sizer: $108.61
Neck Sizer: $108.61
Expander: $40.01
Seater: $92.89
Form (each): $92.89
File Trim: $92.89
Dillon Trim: $108.61
Taper Crimp: $92.89
Reamer Die: $151.49
icon

Our dies are precision machined from high quality steel, heat-hardened to 59 Rockwell C to a depth of .030" for maximum durability, hand polished for smooth function, and ultrasonically cleaned and coated in a proprietary rust preventative solution.

7/8" die body diameter.
3 die set includes full length sizer, expander, and seater.
Designed for a .454 bullet. The die set includes a .452 expander plug. You can specify a custom expander diameter during ordering.

[toot]

Rich/WIS, thank you.

[toot]

skeettx. wat is the price for a set?

[toot]

skeettx, sorry I posted too soon. thanking you. that price is not good for a guy living on SOCIAL SECURITY! but thank you for posting that the dies are available. I will for the time being shoot 43 SPANISH in it and reload then in 43 SPANISH DIES. it works but after a few firing's the cases fatigue & split. it is expensive as the 43 SPANISH brass isn't cheep! again thanking you.

[skeettx]

I am putting the Reformado dies on swapping and selling
Mike

[Hiwall55]

I have a perfect soft cover of crofts, shooting the 43 Spanish Rolling Block,$80 shipped, even had the dust jacket on it.

[missionary5155]

Hey toot
If you want to get a long life from your brass stop resizing. Your dies are over sizing your brass to small.
We have been shooting a 43 Spanish for over 30 years and still reload the same brass.
But you have to decide to neck size only. Keep pressures down to BP pressure.
Or simply use 2F Goex. 43 Spanish is a BP cartridge. Works great with BP..............

[toot]

thank you for the reply. so just neck size do it by adjusting the resizing die till it just starts it into the die? then load and shoot. you are talking about regular 43 SPANISH dies? and you will still have to use .439 cast heads in it?

[missionary5155]

If you use BP do not resize at all.
The .439 mold is a sad situation. Your fired brass neck inside diameter before sizing is the best size you need. I would not be surprised if your brass would receive a .442+++ cast. We have 3 chambers and all 3 are fat. One takes a .446.
You do need a fat cast to shoot smokeless.
Your .439 mold is of little help. You can shim it with high temp aluminum tape ( Beagle Process) and cast with WW. You may get to needed fatness.
You can also shim and cast 40-1 mix and it will maybe it bump up enough to shoot groups with 2F BP.
We either Paper Patch with our .439 or use other "fat molds" to get what we need.
But you need to first find what diameter cast will fit your fired brass. Accuracy is all about proper cast fit.

[skeettx]

Die are sold and shipped :)