A Special Die?

[xvigauge]

I just got the Lyman #4 cast boolit manual. An article in it says that an extra die is needed to expand the neck and bell the case mouth for loading cast boolits in rifle cartridges. Is this really necessary? Does this have to be done to reload hard cast rifle boolits with gas checks? I have not read this anywhere else. Is there a more common tool that can do this or do I now have to buy lots of extra dies for the cartridges I am planning to reload?
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[Omega]

I bought a Lee universal expander: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/140461/lee-universal-neck-expanding-die

[firebrick43]

The special die is an M die. Rcbs has a version as well. With lyman there is two die bodies (long and short) and you just buy the expander end for additional caliber. Very inexpensive. NOE also added expander ends to add to your lee powder thru dies.

[johnnyastro22]

If you load cast lead boolits with out "belling" your cartridge case mouths you'll end up with a small lead sliver around the top of your brass that you've got to remove.

Your manual is suggesting a case expander die, the one that I use is a Lee Universal Case Expanding Die.
It will create a slight taper at the cartridges case mouth for .22 cal to .45 cal LEE Part Number: 90798

I really like this die, easy to use and inexpensive. My finished rounds look nicer than before I was belling the cartridge cases.

In summary, Yes you should bell the case mouth & No you don't have to buy lots of extra dies.[smilie=w:

[W.R.Buchanan]

I use the Lee Expander Die ($12) The case mouth needs to be beveled so that it is larger than the outside of the boolit so that it won't shave lead during the seating process. Also NOE has plugs that look like M Die expanders that fit the Lee Die, $6 ish.

The Lee Expander Die works fine on it's own as all you need to do is bell the case mouth and since the Lee Plug is tapered it bells a little deeper which serves the same purpose as the M Die.

Another way is to take a pair of needle nosed pliers and with them closed use the taper on the outside of the jaws with a twisting motion to bell the case mouth.

Go easy,,, it doesn't take much.

Randy

[Doc Highwall]

If you only expand/bell the case mouth it does nothing for bullet neck tension. The Lyman M-die and the RCBS dies are superior to the LEE die that only bells the case mouth. Al at NOE makes M-die expander's that fit the Lee die body and I would suggest you look at them.

Neck tension and bullet crimp affect accuracy to a great degree that should not be under estimated.

I do not crimp my rifle loads as most are shot single shot, but I do experiment with neck tension and bullet diameter.

[pworley1]

I use the lee universal expander and a factory crimp die.

[fred2892]

If you only expand/bell the case mouth it does nothing for bullet neck tension. The Lyman M-die and the RCBS dies are superior to the LEE die that only bells the case mouth. Al at NOE makes M-die expander's that fit the Lee die body and I would suggest you look at them.

Neck tension and bullet crimp affect accuracy to a great degree that should not be under estimated.

I do not crimp my rifle loads as most are shot single shot, but I do experiment with neck tension and bullet diameter.

The doc has it right. The Lee merely flares the case mouth. It does nothing to expand the neck for cast boolits. The Lyman 'm' die both expands the neck and puts a step flare at the mouth of the case. If you are chasing accuracy you will not find it with the Lee.

[gwpercle]

The expander die and Lyman M die do help getting a soft lead boolit seated with out shaving lead or distorting the bullet. If you load plain base rifle the Lyman M die might work best . But gas checked boolits seem to get by with the Lee Universal. The universal mainly flares the case and you have to be careful seating the boolit in straight. The Lyman expands the neck first to a depth then the upper rim of the neck is flared. The bullet is now easier to get started into the case.
Handgun rounds seem to do fine with the Lee flaring tool or with the flairing die that comes with a set. Not all dies are set up for cast boolits , hence the need for the extra flaring tool/die . None of my 9 mm luger die sets are set up for cast so I bought the Lee Universal flaring die. For some reason my 45 acp dies and 38 Special have a flaring adjustment built in. My 30-30 dies didn't have a way to bell.
Flaring and belling is the same thing...hope this doesn't confuse you too much. The one Lee Universal Expander will work for a whole lot of different cartridges , handgun and rifle.
If you need one will just depend on the dies you buy.
Gary

[wonderwolf]

I got lucky and picked up an abused lee universal for all of $3 at a gun show a few years back, replaced the top threaded plug that was a mess (looked like somebody hit it with a hammer out of the die?) and was back up and running.

Its a great die for the money, and it can be adjusted quickly and used for ALL your other calibers, highly recommended here. In fact I just got done using it on some 30-30 brass with just enough to get the gas check all the way in. that's as much bell as I use.

[xvigauge]

I tried the needle nosed pliers method in belling the case mouths of some 8x57 cases. It worked great.134689
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[Doc Highwall]

Remember when you only bell the case mouth it does not expand the necks to a uniform inside diameter. All dies have a inside neck expander to help make bullet seating pressure (and bullet starting pressure) uniform.

By only belling the case mouth and not expanding the case necks will give you a non uniformed start/ignition of the powder charge. Now ask yourself would you put 6 different heat range spark plugs in your 6 cylinder car engine?

[blikseme300]

Consistency cannot be achieved without expanding the neck as well. You don't need to do this but eliminating inconsistency does help improve accuracy.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Add the NOE M-die type expanders to the Lee Universal expanding die and have the best of both worlds.

[xvigauge]

The necks in these 8x57 rounds were already sized and expanded in the regular resizing stage of the reloading/case prep process. I only needed to bell the case slightly to get the boolit started. The boolit seated and/or slid into the case neck very easily.
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[Doc Highwall]

With a separate expander like the Lyman or RCBS you can buy a slightly larger expander and sand it down in a drill to get the size that you want.

I made a set for my custom expander in .0005" increments and held the tolerance to +-.0001" to go along with my 30 caliber sizers that I have in .3095",.3100",.3105",.3110". Now when I go from a .3100" bullet with a .3090" expander to a .3105" I can change the expander to .3095" and maintain a .001" neck tension giving me only one variable the bullet diameter, instead of two by just changing the floating expander.

[gloob]

For rifle all you need is the universal expander. Your regular size die will expand. The Lee u iversal die will apply the flare. But if you use a caliber specific expander/flare die for your rifle you will get a couple of perks that you may appreciate even when u load jacketed bullets. You will not need any neck lube. And you will get easier/ faster seating, esp with flat base bullets. If you choose to expand and flare with an M die/NOE plug you will want to replace the decapping pin in your sizing die so it will no longer expand to get the full advantage.

[seaboltm]

As has been covered, you do need to flare the case mouths in order to seat flat based bullets, weather they are cast or jacketed. Lee Universal is the way to go.

[fatnhappy]

I just got the Lyman #4 cast boolit manual. An article in it says that an extra die is needed to expand the neck and bell the case mouth for loading cast boolits in rifle cartridges. Is this really necessary? Does this have to be done to reload hard cast rifle boolits with gas checks? I have not read this anywhere else. Is there a more common tool that can do this or do I now have to buy lots of extra dies for the cartridges I am planning to reload?
xvigauge

Methinks you'll do well at this game. Anyone who takes the time to read and research the craft does. Thank you.

The M dies I've measure usually expand the case neck about 1.5 to 2 thou larger than standard 2 die sets. They bell case mouths in the same operation and it's very easy to overdo the belling.

I think they're very good dies, but truth be told, they're far from necessary. Whenever I load a caliber for which I don't own an M die, I give the case a quick rap with a plumb bob. Needle nose pliers work. I'm sure there are a 100 other work arounds by people cleverer than I.

[Doc Highwall]

As has been said in post #19 the expanders that come with your dies are for JACKETED BULLETS, the expander is made to seat bullets of nominal diameter such as .308 diameter and are under size for cast bullets that are at least .001-.002 larger then the jacketed bullet. Even with jacketed bullets when the neck tension is too great it affects the bullet runout, and with cast bullets they can be sized down by the greater neck tension and the nose if the bullets is left with a mark making less accurate ammunition.

[xvigauge]

Methinks you'll do well at this game. Anyone who takes the time to read and research the craft does. Thank you.

The M dies I've measure usually expand the case neck about 1.5 to 2 thou larger than standard 2 die sets. They bell case mouths in the same operation and it's very easy to overdo the belling.

I think they're very good dies, but truth be told, they're far from necessary. Whenever I load a caliber for which I don't own an M die, I give the case a quick rap with a plumb bob. Needle nose pliers work. I'm sure there are a 100 other work arounds by people cleverer than I.


Thanks for the positive comments. I have been loading and reloading for around 50 years. I have a lot of experience with most aspects of reloading except for loading cast boolits. I always carefully think and reason out as well as research any reloading aspect that may be new to me. I always try to be safe a double and triple check everything. I think bullet seating is the least of my worries.
xvigauge

[xvigauge]

As has been said in post #19 the expanders that come with your dies are for JACKETED BULLETS, the expander is made to seat bullets of nominal diameter such as .308 diameter and are under size for cast bullets that are at least .001-.002 larger then the jacketed bullet. Even with jacketed bullets when the neck tension is too great it affects the bullet runout, and with cast bullets they can be sized down by the greater neck tension and the nose if the bullets is left with a mark making less accurate ammunition.


I am not worried about bullet seating. As easily as these bullets were seated I foresee no safety issues. Accuracy may be another story. I only shoot at a 50 yard range so these loads will prove to be accurate or they won't. I plan to shoot them this Friday so we will see what happens then. Will give a range report.
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[bedbugbilly]

I have a Lee universal but all it does is flair - I do use it once in a while on certain applications. All I load is cast and I quickly bought a Lyman M die when I got started with 8mm Mauser. I love it and it works great. I refer to it as my "shoe horn" die - makes loading oversize cast lead slugs an easy task.

[MT Chambers]

If you are chasing accuracy with cast, the Lee is not a good bet, you want to control case neck tension in addition to flaring the case mouth. Note that most in-line bullet seaters of mine will seat bullets without flaring case mouths.

[Wayne Smith]

I am not worried about bullet seating. As easily as these bullets were seated I foresee no safety issues. Accuracy may be another story. I only shoot at a 50 yard range so these loads will prove to be accurate or they won't. I plan to shoot them this Friday so we will see what happens then. Will give a range report.
xvigauge

As easily as those boolits seated given that you were using an expander ball likely .002 smaller than it should be I would expect some leading. Either your expander ball is too big or your boolit is too small.

[Sticky]

Add the NOE M-die type expanders to the Lee Universal expanding die and have the best of both worlds.

This.. an M die without needing to buy M dies, just a Lee universal expander and add these.. you can get a ton of options from Noe for expanders for most all calibers. I have had great luck with them!

[Geezer in NH]

Add the NOE M-die type expanders to the Lee Universal expanding die and have the best of both worlds.Yes!!!!!!!!!!!! and easier to order than Lyman M die plugs.

[xvigauge]

As easily as those boolits seated given that you were using an expander ball likely .002 smaller than it should be I would expect some leading. Either your expander ball is too big or your boolit is too small.

I think you are wrong, but we shall see. Can't make it to the range today after all. Will be there in two weeks, however. BTW, I loaded up some of the cast boolits in some other cartridges the exact same way and had the exact same results. I guess ALL of my expanders are too big and I guess ALL of my boolits are too small. I doubt it though and I don't expect any leading; and if I do get some, so what? That's what solvents and cleaning rods are for. Why is it that on most forums, there is always someone who tries to burst one's bubble? Is it because they have been at the game for a long time and just can't accept the fact that a new comer is having success? Or, is it just the old green eyed monster coming to the surface? Nonetheless, I will shoot these loads in a couple of weeks and if there are problems, I hope someone on this forum can give me some help to improve and not say something like, "I told you so."
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[fred2892]

So you start a thread asking for advice on a piece of equipment that you don't use and want to learn of others experience with this bit of kit. When you get the answers to your question, you
decide that you don't think its necessary and you are just going to carry on regardless despite the fact that Lyman have been making these (m dies) for decades and recently a highly regarded mould maker has started to copy them for use in the common Lee expander die.
Is it any wonder we are losing members with the experience to help those who ask when this is the result.
Why bother to pose the question in the first place if you were determined to ignore any intelligent answers to your question.
And no, leading is not a 'so what' , eliminating it is part of the process of attaining accuracy.

[xvigauge]

So you start a thread asking for advice on a piece of equipment that you don't use and want to learn of others experience with this bit of kit. When you get the answers to your question, you
decide that you don't think its necessary and you are just going to carry on regardless despite the fact that Lyman have been making these (m dies) for decades and recently a highly regarded mould maker has started to copy them for use in the common Lee expander die.
Is it any wonder we are losing members with the experience to help those who ask when this is the result.
Why bother to pose the question in the first place if you were determined to ignore any intelligent answers to your question.
And no, leading is not a 'so what' , eliminating it is part of the process of attaining accuracy.


Thanks for straightening me out Fred. I can see it all clearly now.
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[xvigauge]

I have noticed that there are several varying opinions, and I am assuming they are based on individual experience, on the Lee Universal Expander Die; i.e., what it can and cannot do. So what am I to believe? Being the one who fatnhappy says will do well in this game (and I have to agree with him), I will just have to try all options and based on my personal experience with these options, come to my own conclusions about what tools I need and do not need. The old adage of what is one man's meat is another man's poison may apply here as in, "this works for me, YMMV." I also believe that powder selection and charge weights is a whole other story and I always use data from manuals only and not from posters on a forum unless I can substantiate it with other existing published data. As far as run out goes, good advice. I think I will run out and buy some more lubed and gas checked boolits that seat easily in my pliers belled cases.
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[leadhead]

Been following this post and would like to make a couple comments.....
First, I've been loading cast bullets in handgun and rifle for 50+ years
and I'm still learning "new" tricks all the time. I shot handgun silhouette
for 22 years and won many championship matches with cast bullets.
Nobody knows everything there is to know about this craft, but forums
like this one sure makes it a lot nicer for guys just starting out. Wish I
would have had guys like this to tell me there problems with cast when
I was starting out...would have made things a hell of a lot better instead
of going thru all the BS I went thru over the years...Listen and LEARN.
Denny

[xvigauge]

You are correct leadhead. Good advice, especially for me.
xvigauge