Which cartridge in 1873 and why?

[Michael J. Spangler]

If you had to choose between a Winchester 1873 in 357 mag or 45 colt which one and why?

I'm not going to share my preference or explain my situation as to why I would lean towards one over the other. I want opinions and reasons that aren't tainted by my current reloading set up or other guns in the same cartridge. Just curious to see what you would do if you were in the market for one or had to down size to just one?

[Beerd]

for plinking, 38/357
for hunting, probably the 45
..

[Dryball]

That's a tough one. I like the 45 colt much more. But, from a practical stand-point the .357 would get the nod. With it you could plink with 38 specials and hunt with the .357. Also, the 38 and 357's are more common and readily available.

[northmn]

If the 73 comes in 357 then I would take that one as I really like that cartridge. The 1873 is really not set up for the 45 Colt hot loads some run through Marlins. For me the 357 is the best cartridge for both deer and small game as it can use 38 specials also. In addition the 357 out of a rifle is not all that shabby for deer.

DP

[alrighty]

I voted for the .357 but either will do anything that the other could be used for I.M.O.I have a Marlin in .357 and a Winchester trapper in .45.I just seem to have more fun with the .357 and playing with light loaded 38 specials is a pure blast.

[runfiverun]

the 73 ain't set up for those kinds of pressures, the toggle link it uses to hold the bolt closed won't hold up.
I'd go with the 45 colt in this situation, but would pick the 44-40 myself.

[Nobade]

Neither one. It's made for the original WCF cartridges and works best with them.

-Nobade

[VA Jim]

I just went thru this decision making process. I decided on the 357 due to lower cost of reloading. Full power loads will still be plenty if I decide to deer hunt with it.

[Outpost75]

You need to consider the state of cartridge manufacture at the time. The .45 Colt as then manufactured in folded-head, balloon cases, did not have an extraction groove in front of the rim, and its meager rim was inadequate for rifle use, and the case not strong enough to permit positive extraction in a rifle. THAT is why there were no .45 Colt rifles back when...

If limited to the guns and cartridges which were actually available in 1873, the Winchester 1873 lever-action rifle and Colt's Frontier Six Shooter, BOTH in .44-40, using the black powder loads available at the time, were pure state of then-current art, and are the obvious choice.

Given modern, strong, reliable guns like the Ruger Vaquero and Winchester 92 or Marlin 1894, they still do the job with well balanced, powerful loads giving up little to the .44 Magnum. As a cast-bullet cartridge only, which can use either smokeless or black or the common BP substitutes, the .44-40 still gets my vote if I had to give everything up but one rifle and one revolver using the same ammo, which I believe was the point of the OP.

134465134466134468134467

[Clay M]

I am not particularly keen on either one in a 73.My choice would be a .38/40 win
I like original chambering for that rifle,and the .38/40 is very accurate and fun to shoot..
The .32/20,.38/40 or .44/40 and I would buy one. Otherwise no.

[M-Tecs]

the 73 ain't set up for those kinds of pressures, the toggle link it uses to hold the bolt closed won't hold up.
I'd go with the 45 colt in this situation, but would pick the 44-40 myself.

Uberti chambers it in the 44 Mag. http://www.uberti.com/1873-rifle-and-carbine

I have an original in 44-40 and a Uberti in 45 Colt. Thinking about a new Winchester in 44-40
http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=027c&mid=534217

[prsman23]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/19/ea52367a40eb586e326aad1034fedeb7.jpg

44-40 of course!
1873 made in 1883

[prs]

Make mine 44/40 too.

prs

[Good Cheer]

I've had nice 44-40 '73 Winchester and 5 1/2" Colt to go with it. They were nice but ho-hum for my purposes.
My brother shoots a repro in 45 Colt 1873 and loves it. With the longer octagonal barrel it's like a Kentucky rifle that just keeps shooting time after time after time...
My daddy loved his original 38-40 1873 rifle (full length barrel) and the 4 5/8" long barrel Colt to go with it. Both now stolen.
He liked the 38-40 for the pass through performance.

If it was me choosing between the .357 and the .45 Colt I'd prob'ly stick with the shortest .38 diameter brass that I could get to function reliably and shoot accurately and go chase wabbits.

[Speedo66]

I recently had to make the same decision when I bought another brand lever action, my choices were .357, .45, or .44 Mag.

After considering cost of new ammo, cases, etc., availability, recoil, and my intended purposes, I went with the .357. Buffalo Bore makes a hard cast 180g. bullet that travels almost 1900fps out of a rifle barrel, close enough to 30-30 specs that the deer won't know the difference.

I have an original '73 in .38-40, wish the local laws would let me hunt with that, but they only allow straight walled cartridges. Think you're going to love your '73 no matter which caliber. The one I bought is only 5lbs., if you go with the 24" octagonal barrel, recoil won't be an issue for you.

[rbertalotto]

Yup....38-40 or 44-40....Accept no substitutes! Both can be uploaded or downloaded (in a modern rifle) as you please to match recoil and energy of the 357 or 45LC

And if you decide to shoot Black Powder there is absolutely no choice. The thin brass and great chamber sealing of the 38WCF and 44WCF will rule the day.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

The linkage in the 73 is not a strong one and the pressures that go with the 357 or 45 LC are not a good idea. My 73 is in 38-40 and that does very well for me in terms of accuracy and reliability. LLS

[Clay M]

I totally love the .38/40 in a revolver and rifle..I have had several that would shoot like a house a fire..
It is a cartridge that is very dear to my heart..Wish I had not sold the ones I had, but hindsight is always 20/20.I was young and foolish.. Let many great guns slip through my fingertips..
I had a Colt Beasley in .38/40 .It had a prefect bore..The gun would shoot one ragged hole at 25 yds. We all seem to make major mistakes in our lives growing up..Getting rid of that gun is one that goes in the books for me..
Back then I had a Winchester dealer that could well and deal and come up with sum phenomenal guns..I traded it on something I wanted more at the time..But I really wish I had kept that gun along with several others I traded.
We had the money and the guns,and we just wanted to experiment with as many as possible..and that we did..But I wish I had kept some of them.. I still have my 1895's made in 1913.. They are my prize possessions..Perfect bores and will shoot with the best..
I also had a win 73 chambered in .38/40..It was so perfect in evey way that it could make me cry to think I actually sold that gun..I needed the extra money for a house project I was working on.It was a beauty in ever respect..
I bought and sold them and traded them like stock,,but stocks they were not..
If they were Winchesters ,or Colts with a perfect bore then they would all shoot beyond your wildest expectations..
I also had a Colt Army Special in .32/20 that should have never left my hands.Now that gun would shoot..My old state patrol buddy said it was the best group he ever saw for offhand shooting..
I am sure I will never have the opportunity or money to ever have these guns back in my lifetime..But I cast bullets for them ,and I got to experience what there really were.. I came away in total.Awe..
Everything I am telling you actually happened..Those Winchester and Colts would shoot.It they had a perfect bore they were magic.

[bouncer50]

I have a Colt in 38/40 just a neck down 44/40. Why not a 44 special

[Clay M]

I have a Colt in 38/40 just a neck down 44/40. Why not a 44 special

The .38/40 is a forty caliber..I don't know why and I can't explain it but there is something magical about the .40 caliber..Just My opinion..I do love the .44 Special and feel like that would make a better chambering than the .45 Colt..
But as you see, I am a traditionalist.. I like the original calibers,and for a good reason..

[TXGunNut]

38-40 of course...or maybe 44-40. Big fan of 45 Colt and would like a 92 in 357 but the 1873 is a whole 'nuther animal.

[M-Tecs]

The linkage in the 73 is not a strong one and the pressures that go with the 357 or 45 LC are not a good idea.

Same as you I have always read and believed that the toggle link design is very weak but since Uberti chambers 357, 45 Colt and 44 Mag I am starting to believe that with modern metallurgy the toggle link design may be stronger than most give it credit. The Italian proof standards are very stringent. Even if Uberti tried to pass off questionable safety margins the Italian National Proof House in Gardone Italy would not.

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/pedersoli_proof_rules_and_allowable_limits_09-04.htm (http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/pedersoli_proof_rules_and_allowable_limits_09-04.htm)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_Internationale_Permanente_pour_l%27Epre uve_des_Armes_%C3%A0_Feu_Portatives

[retread]

I am not particularly keen on either one in a 73.My choice would be a .38/40 win
I like original chambering for that rifle,and the .38/40 is very accurate and fun to shoot..
The .32/20,.38/40 or .44/40 and I would buy one. Otherwise no.

My sentiments also.

[EDK]

I wouldn't trust a '73 in 357 or 44 magnum for factory ammo. I picked 45 Colt because I have a Schofield clone in 45 Colt and I will load it very conservatively. I bought it after watching Tom Selleck in CROSSFIRE TRAIL for the 100th+ time.

I trashed a nice 44 magnum VAQUERO 3 years ago. I still curse every time I look at the wreckage. AND the price on them is through the roof IF you can find one.

[MtGun44]

Neither. The action was designed for .44-40, so the significantly fatter .45 Colt
compromises the barrel shank thickness, and pushes the extractor farther out
than intended originally. Also, the .45 Colt has a TINY rim, since it was designed
to be pushed out of a 1873 Colt, NOT used to extract the case. I have no direct
experience on this but would worry that the extraction would be unreliable.

The pressures of the .357 are WAY, WAY above what the original design
intended and the action is very weak, all stress going through the pivot
pins in the links.

Get a .38-40 or .44-40, original cartridges, will feed better and keep pressures
within the range that the action was designed for, keep extractor and barrel
shank thickness under control.

[jrmartin1964]

If .357 Magnum and .45 Colt are the only choices, then I choose "neither". The Model 1873 should only ever be chambered for .44-40, .38-40, or .32-20.

[Speedo66]

The pressures of the .357 are WAY, WAY above what the original design
intended and the action is very weak, all stress going through the pivot
pins in the links.

Get a .38-40 or .44-40, original cartridges, will feed better and keep pressures
within the range that the action was designed for, keep extractor and barrel
shank thickness under control.

If they're chambering modern '73's in magnum calibers, they're no doubt safe to handle them. Think about Colt SSA. We know they were designed for black powder, yet with modern steel they can handle .357.

There's no relationship between the metallurgy of 1873, some early Winchesters were actually just iron, and the high strength steels of today.

I prefer classic cartridges, but any they chamber them in will be safe.

[Klaus]

why you asking for this Calibers ? the `73 was never chambered for a 357 or .45 Colt
take the 44 WCF and never look back

Klaus :drinks:

[Michael J. Spangler]

I'm not interested in loading for a new cartridge really. I like the idea of keeping with what I have.
So now for the background. I have a marlin 1894c in 357 and I've been thinking of trading (up?) to an 1873 but I'm not sold on getting into a new cartridge. The other option I guess is a 44 mag which will match my 629-4 which I load for.
The comments above about strength of the firearms I'm sure is true to an extent due to design but I wouldn't imagine they're using the same steels and manufacturing techniques they did in 1873. I'm sure just the increase in steel strength it would be able to handle the loads or they wouldn't bother.
I guess I need to handle an 1873 at the local shop and to shoot a buddy's at the range next week (if it's open) to see if I fall in love.
Thanks for all of the feedback guys. Keep em coming.

[TXGunNut]

I like staying with cartridges I'm set up for as well but I do venture off into a new one all too often. What are your intended uses for the new 1873? Targets, plinking, hunting, CAS events?

[Plastikosmd]

.357
love mine
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/Winchester%201873/bb955a5b99d4cfa69578655b0e26c262_zps29117bd7.jpg


http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/Winchester%201873/c05c84d80bac8e43408226775819bb83_zps25ee14d0.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/Winchester%201873/8ce9b3bb051f893e8d08a02e35284e03_zpsac3b6d3f.jpg

[Michael J. Spangler]

I like staying with cartridges I'm set up for as well but I do venture off into a new one all too often. What are your intended uses for the new 1873? Targets, plinking, hunting, CAS events?

target every week and then some small game hunting. Possibly for deer if I had the chance to get out west
no rifle for deer in Massachusetts

[TXGunNut]

I like the 1873 but the 1894C is a fine little rifle, as you well know. If I had a good .357 94C in the stable I wouldn't trade it for an 1873, but I might add a good 1873 if I had the cash on hand.

[35 Whelen]

First, I bought a Uberti 1873 .44 Magnum and worry not in the least as to whether or not it can stand the pressure of the cartridge. If it couldn't they wouldn't produce it.
Now as to the original question, it really boils down to intended use. If all you're going to do is take it to the range, by all means get a 357. Otherwise, a Colt.

35W

[Ken in Iowa]

For the 1873, I agree with the many here who have said 44/40, 38/40 or 32/20. The '73 in 38 Special is fine but may take some tuning.

For 357, 45 Colt, or 44 Magnum, the Winchester '92 or Marlin are a much better choice.

Why may I ask did you choose an 1873?

[Larry Gibson]

If I was a serious SASS cowboy action competitor then the .357 gets the not with pip squeak 38 SPL loads being used. Since I am not a serious SASS shooter and both my SAAs are chambered in 45 Colt I went with the 45 Colt. My Uberti M73 has the heavier 20" full octagon barrel and a 3rd gen toggle upgrade. I shoot my standard 45 Colt load for my revolvers in the M73 also. That is a 200 gr RNFP over 7.3 gr of Bullseye. Runs 1200 fps out of the rifle and 950 out of the revolvers. Accuracy is excellent. The M73 feeds those 45 Colt loads slicker than snot and I've not had a single malfunction. Had they had the 45 Colt brass "back in the day" and the M73 had been chambered in it the 44-40 and 38-40 would have faded in obscurity a lot quicker than they did. Colt would not have had to chamber the SAA "Peace Maker" in 44-40 for the dual handgun/rifle combination.

Larry Gibson

[Michael J. Spangler]

For the 1873, I agree with the many here who have said 44/40, 38/40 or 32/20. The '73 in 38 Special is fine but may take some tuning.

For 357, 45 Colt, or 44 Magnum, the Winchester '92 or Marlin are a much better choice.

Why may I ask did you choose an 1873?

because it's probably the most beautiful rifle ever designed.
i know the marlin 1894 really has it all over the 1873 mechanically. i actually have an 1894C in 357 and love it. i just think the 1873 is super beautiful

[35 Whelen]

If I was a serious SASS cowboy action competitor then the .357 gets the not with pip squeak 38 SPL loads being used. Since I am not a serious SASS shooter and both my SAAs are chambered in 45 Colt I went with the 45 Colt. My Uberti M73 has the heavier 20" full octagon barrel and a 3rd gen toggle upgrade. I shoot my standard 45 Colt load for my revolvers in the M73 also. That is a 200 gr RNFP over 7.3 gr of Bullseye. Runs 1200 fps out of the rifle and 950 out of the revolvers. Accuracy is excellent. The M73 feeds those 45 Colt loads slicker than snot and I've not had a single malfunction. Had they had the 45 Colt brass "back in the day" and the M73 had been chambered in it the 44-40 and 38-40 would have faded in obscurity a lot quicker than they did. Colt would not have had to chamber the SAA "Peace Maker" in 44-40 for the dual handgun/rifle combination.

Larry Gibson

Very well put. My first CAS rifle was an 1873 chambered in .44 Special. I slicked it up inside, lightened the springs a bit, and installed a short stroke kit. That rifle was SLICK and never once malfunctioned. On the other hand, my wife's '92 chambered in .357, was prone to jams and throwing a cartridge out instead of chambering it.
The OP asked specifically about the 357 and 45 Colt, not the 32-20, 38-40, or 44-40. Another real down side to these cartridges that rarely gets mentioned is they must be lubed prior to sizing, just like any other bottleneck case. Due to the volume of shooting I do, that alone is a deal breaker for me.

35W

[maxreloader]

134850

[Michael J. Spangler]

Very well put. My first CAS rifle was an 1873 chambered in .44 Special. I slicked it up inside, lightened the springs a bit, and installed a short stroke kit. That rifle was SLICK and never once malfunctioned. On the other hand, my wife's '92 chambered in .357, was prone to jams and throwing a cartridge out instead of chambering it.
The OP asked specifically about the 357 and 45 Colt, not the 32-20, 38-40, or 44-40. Another real down side to these cartridges that rarely gets mentioned is they must be lubed prior to sizing, just like any other bottleneck case. Due to the volume of shooting I do, that alone is a deal breaker for me.

35W

you hit the nail on the head here. I shoot a lot. I don't always make the best shots because I'm too busy pouring through cartridges about as fast I can. For fun range guns like that I would prefer straight walled cases without the trouble of all that bottleneck mess.

The range has been closed for far too long with this nasty weather. I need to get the marlin out and put some rounds through it.

[hornady308]

It depends. If only used for general shooting, I'll take the 357. If I'm going to hunt deer or hog, I'll go with the 45 as I trust it to get the job done. I used to have a Marlin 357, but sold it when I finally admitted to myself that I would never carry it hunting.

[rbertalotto]

Uberti 1873 .44 Magnum and worry not in the least as to whether or not it can stand the pressure of the cartridge. If it couldn't they wouldn't produce it.

How about all them semi-auto rifles that were built in 17HMR......then they found it hadtoo much pressure and bolt thrust......Just say'n!

[M-Tecs]

Savage is jumping into the semi-auto game http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2015/02/18/savage-arms-a17-semi-auto-17-hmr-rifle/

Volquartsen & Alexander Arms never stopped. Magnum Research stopped due to slam fires from dirty chambers. I have a Mach II and I would love to find a 17 HMR.


Back to the 44's in a 1873. US firearm manufactures do not have to have their products proofed by a proof house. The Italian guns do so you have some checks and balances. That being said I do not exceed Colt 1873 loads in mine.

[OverMax]

Neither cartridge you proposed for use. A cartridge the rifle was originally designed to use. That's the ambiance that comes with the ownership of a 140 year old rifle design.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Bringing this one back from the dead.

Ended up with a 357 and love it. Wouldn’t mind a 45 colt too now that I’ve played with this one a bit.
I’m shooting 98% 38 special target loads through it but like the idea of the 357 if I ever wanted to hunt with it.
Lucky thing my wife fell in love with the design and wants one of her own. Perfect reason to get a colt.

[Outpost75]

the 73 ain't set up for those kinds of pressures, the toggle link it uses to hold the bolt closed won't hold up. I'd go with the 45 colt in this situation, but would pick the 44-40 myself.

The .44-40 is what the 1893 Winchester was designed around and is still a great cartridge with either smokeless or black.

Dance with the girl you brought, .44-40 rocks...

[bob208]

those who think the toggle link is weak better go look at the luger and maxim machine gun. it was the steel that hurt the design .

I never did like the .45 colt in a leaver gun so I would have to go with the .357.

I have a Rossi 92 in .357 it is a great rifle. also have real Winchesters in .44-40 .38-40 and .32-20. they all work like they should

[Ruts]

Another real down side to these cartridges that rarely gets mentioned is they must be lubed prior to sizing, just like any other bottleneck case. Due to the volume of shooting I do, that alone is a deal breaker for me.

35W

I read this often its not true i never lube my 44 40 dies they are not carbide and cases size real easy. My 357 sizer is too sticky to use without lube so i would say the opposite

[35 Whelen]

I read this often its not true i never lube my 44 40 dies they are not carbide and cases size real easy. My 357 sizer is too sticky to use without lube so i would say the opposite

Since my original post of over 2 1/2 years ago, I've purchased a '66 Uberti in 44-40, three Colt 1st Generation SA's in 38-40 ( 2 ea. circa 1903, 1 ea. 1905) and three 1873 Winchesters in 38-40 (1 ea. 1886 and 2 ea. 1890). Love all of them and have now cast bullets for, reloaded and fired lots and lots of these two cartridges, especially the 38-40. When I size these cases I smear every 3rd or 4th case with a little Unique case lube. I could probably get by with no lube, but see no need in stressing the brass.

35W

[croyleje]

if i had to choose one of those it would be 45 colt but the correct cartridge is 44-40 :) just joking for cowboy action by far around here its the 38/357 easy and quick follow ups on steel

[Speedo66]

I read this often its not true i never lube my 44 40 dies they are not carbide and cases size real easy. My 357 sizer is too sticky to use without lube so i would say the opposite

I found this also with loading for my original '73 in .38-40. I had forgotten to lube the cases one time after I started loading for it, but found they came out just the same without the lube.

I don't know if it's the thin wall of the cartridges, or a tight chamber fire forming them, but I no longer bother lubing them at all and have never had a stuck case, or even close to one.

They require less pressure to load than .357 with carbide dies.

[Texas by God]

To answer your question as posed- 45 Colt because my friend had a Uberti .45 LC 73 and it was flawless. BUT- I wholeheartedly agree with run5run and nobade on the WCF cartridges and would extend that thinking to the 1892 as well.

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[missionary5155]

Good morning
I do not do the Cowboy shoots. We are primarily hunters.
With a round ball I can load our 45 Colt lever rifles (3) to pop wabbits and tree rats or whatever offending can needs exterminating. Super small game load ! Our a light wad cutter will do the same. 800 fps is all a bunny needs out to 50 yards.
But with 45 Colt we can go with a 300 grain FNGC for any critter this side our world and not have to fear we are for sure going to get eating. A 300 grainer at 1750+fps is one potent chunk of lead. Add 5+ more on target and the target is going to be hard pressed to last very long.
WE have a couple 357's. OK for small game or corn crunchers up close with 200 FNGC. But no way would I consider big pigs or large game critters that weight more than our 2 wheelers. The 45 Colt with the right shaped heavy slug is going to get the job done.
Mike in Peru

[15meter]

Already had a pair of vaquero's in 45 Colt and my 94 trapper only held 9 rounds. I needed something that held 10 rounds for cowboy shooting. Stopping to load the tenth round on stage really whacked my time. Found a used 73 in 45 Colt in new condition CHEAP.

[59sharps]

The 44/40 's have it. Go w that

[clum553946]

Given the choices, I chose the 357. That being said, I shoot a 73 in 44-40 for cowboy action shooting!

[AZ Pete]

.45 hands down


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[OlDeuce]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/19/ea52367a40eb586e326aad1034fedeb7.jpg

44-40 of course!
1873 made in 1883

The 44-40 is the only 1 ..........If you have the other ones go with the and I hate to say it but the .45Colt :Fire::Fire::target_smiley:

Ol Deuce[smilie=s:

[Bazoo]

I voted 45 colt, but i'd probably go 357. I originally was thinking 45 colt was a cartridge of the same vintage as the rifle design. Really, I think that the versatility of the 357 really sets well with the original 73 design. If I had to strike out homesteading with just one rifle, the 357 would be the best choice for an all around cartridge.

If I ever come up with the money, I believe i'll get me another marlin 1894c. I've owned 3 or 4. The first few I traded off when I was trying to figure out what I liked. That last I lost in a house fire. We cant use centerfire for squirrel or rabbit here, but deer or varmint critters are fine. Sure loads cheap too.

[kaiser]

My take is: that the '73 was not offered in a .45 Colt by Winchester because Colt threatened to produce a rifle to compete with Winchester's offering, a "corporate" decision. The "balloon head" explanation makes more sense, but I would point out that 1870's brass metallurgy design made many cartridges, ie. .44WCF, 38/40, etc. pretty "weak" and they had design flaws. Starline, Winchester, and Remington, today, makes much better cases in all of them; additionally, today's replica 1873's are made of much stronger steels. I chose the .45 Colt in the '73 and load it to .44 Mag "Pistol" load velocity (not pressure) because it is more powerful than either of the original cartridges (38/40 or .44WCF) without "stressing" the toggle link action and is a "near perfect" fit for the 7 to 8 pound '73. The .45 Colt is easy to load; has "scads" of cast molds available; and is very accurate in the Uberti made firearms. I am not a "Cowboy shooter" and believe the .45 Colt is an upgrade over the original loading in diameter and velocity, just like the .357 is an upgrade over the .38 Spl. In the .357, I chose the '92 over the Marlin 1894 and 1873 due to size, weight, and strength over either of these designs. My .02.

[Texas by God]

The original .45 Colt cartridge had just enough rim for the SAA. I find it hard to believe that Winchester would not chamber their rifle for the Gov't cartridge if it would have worked. The addition of a rim for the 1909 revolver solved that but by then it didn't matter. IMO.
Happy New Year !
Thomas

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[veeman]

Probly cuz the 45 Colt is a straight wall case and there is too much blowby, rifle got too dirty too fast.

[Larry Gibson]

I went with the 45 Colt in my Uberti M1873 because my two SAAs are 45 Colts. I load 7.2 gr Bullseye under a 200 - 205 gr RNFP. Runs 950 fps out of the SAs and 1150 fps out of the M1873 at a measured psi right at 14,000. Easy on brass, a pleasure to shoot and extremely accurate.

[smkummer]

I like them both, you didn’t have an option for that, so I didn’t vote. Really love my colt burgess Taylor repro in 45 colt and am loading a 400 round ammo can for use as plinking ammo but it’s not quite the plinker as a 357/38 can be. While the 45 DOES work on deer and other game of the same size, the 357 CAN work on deer. Decide what your going to primarily use it for.
There is your awnser, buy both. Life is short.

[Grapeshot]

I chose the .45 Colt only because I had no other choice. That being said, The .45 Colt can be loaded light for small game using a round ball, target wad cutter or SWC. It can also be loaded hot for medium to large game using a heavy, 250 - 300 grain bullet with a RNFP or Truncated Cone nose.

You can use a hard grooved bullet or a dead soft paper patched bullet for hunting or defense. Another plus is if you have a handgun chambered for the same round, it simplifies your ammo requirements.

That being said, The .45 Colt was never chambered in the 1873 Winchester because 1.) the straight walled case allowed to much blowback fouling the rifle badly. 2). The rim on the original .45 Colt case is pathetic. Way too small in diameter, having only enough to stop it from entering the chamber in the Colt SAA. 3). There was no extractor grove on the Originals. On today's cases the rim diameter is slightly larger and they do have an extractor grove.

So, in reality, I would rather have the .44WCF chambering. For the record, I do own a '73 Carbine in .45 Colt, but I shoot my '66 Yellowboy in .44WCF with Black Powder exclusively.

[flint45]

Because I never have owned a .357 lever gun. But if you had all so given .44 spl. as a choiceI would have picked that.

[rintinglen]

I would choose the .357, both because I have hundreds of rounds of ammunition already, versus a few hundred 45 Colts. But beyond that, I have had better results accuracy wise from the 357 than the 45 colt. Over the years, there have been some pretty non-standard, standard chambers in the various 45 Colts I have used or owned, which makes for some challenges when trying to get multiple guns to shoot straight. (Or even one--yeah, you, Ruger Bisley.)

[HawkEyeEarl]

I would choose the 45 colt over the 357 in a lever action, when choosing from those 2 calibers.

I shoot the 45 colt, usually in 250/255 grains, in an 1866, sometimes in CAS shooting, but usually because I like the shooting the load and the gun.

I like the bigger diameter, the way shoots and feels, in lever guns and six guns.

[indian joe]

The original .45 Colt cartridge had just enough rim for the SAA. I find it hard to believe that Winchester would not chamber their rifle for the Gov't cartridge if it would have worked. The addition of a rim for the 1909 revolver solved that but by then it didn't matter. IMO.
Happy New Year !
Thomas

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I choose 44/40 - too bad if ya didnt include that in the options - I have shot the "dash" cartridges since I was ten years old - the supposed disadvantages of the proper rounds in winchester rifles is an illusion - a figment of the overfertile imagination of fellers who for the most part have not shot them -

[nightowl]

I have marlins in 357 and 45 both. I use th 357 more in 38 for plinking but on the other hand I jst ran 150 round through the 45 for the same purposes. Losing 45 colt brass hurts more then losing 38 brass.

[KCSO]

Neither 44-40 as intended. The 45 Colt has too small a rim in some cases and dosn't feed as well or seal as well. The 357 in it's modern incantation is borderline pressure wise for a 73 action and in the old ammo way too hot. In addition the 45 Colt in a rifle is just not as accurate as the 44-40.

[Eddie Southgate]

Voted for the Colt but would really prefer 38 - 40 .

[TNsailorman]

I don't have a vote as the only 2 choices listed are not my preference. As far as I am concerned there is only one cartridge I would want in a 1873 Winchester and that is .44-40. I love that cartridge. Beside I am a history buff and the original 73 was never chambered in .357 Magnum or .45 Colt. my opinion and not worth much to anyone but me, james

[Der Gebirgsjager]

What TN said. I have one in .45 L.C. Used to have one in .357 Mag., but it just didn't seem like I was shooting a rifle, so I sold it off. But .44-40 is my favorite.

[Catpop]

38-40 hands down! Got two and love them! Both group within 4” at 100 yards with iron sights! Probably would do better with someone that can see! I’m old enough to draw my government pension now![smilie=s:
Another action and another caliber, but for 1873 Winchester 38-40.

[ironhead7544]

45 Colt. You can push a 250 gr cast easily to 1250 fps for deer.

Personally, I would pick up a 44 Magnum Uberti 1873 Carbine. Load up some duplicate 44-40 High Velocity ammo for it. 200 gr bullet at 1600 fps. The original H.V. loads were JSPs but I would use a cast bullet, maybe with a gas check.

[lazs]

neat thread. My choice would be purely selfish.. first of all a reproduction is just that.. it is stronger and not original.. it need not shoot black powder. I would choose the .357 again.. purely selfish. for one.. I have handguns and leverguns in 44 mag... I also have a lot of handguns in .357 none in 45Colt or 44-40 at this time. 45 Colt looks too much like a 44 mag for me.. harder to sort brass if I am shooting em both. So I pretty much avoid 45 Colt.. and there is no 45 special.. I shoot SAA clones in 44 special and .357

Then there is the 44-40... I do not want to lube cases and.. I know folks say the new starline and such brass is way better but I use that brass in 32-20 and that necked down portion is just as flimsy as ever IN MY OPINION Sooo.. no.. Don't want necked down cases unless I have to.. in the case of the 32-20 it is for a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 carbine so the ammo would not work in a 32-20 lever gun in any case.

The .357... no matter what anyone says.. it is a sweet sweet round in .357 or in 38 spl trim. I don't hunt... and shooting a big lever gun in .357 all day is great fun. it is also a very easy and cheap round to load. Also I cast and coat bullets. Can do a lot more in .357 for cheaper.

lazs

[veeman]

There are 45 specials, several in fact, just not by "special" name. 45 Schofield, 45 ACP, 45 Cowboy Special, shoot, you can even call the 45 Auto Rim a 45 special if you want to.

[Noah Zark]

My go-to revolver cartridge is the 44 Special, and when a Uberti '73 Trapper in 44 Special hit my radar I snapped it up. Also in 44 Magnum, I have a couple Chiappa repro '92s, a 16" and 20", a Marlin 16" 1894, and a Ruger 96. None have seen a single 44 Magnum cartridge. The Ruger chamber mouth needed a slight break / chamfer polish for 44 Special, but it runs them reliably.

I also have 20" '73s in 45 Colt, 357, and 32-20, and a '66 Trapper in 45 Colt. No problems with RNFPs, or some SWCs depending on how sharp the transition is between the nose and the full diameter in front of the crimp groove.

Noah

[Nobade]

Neither. 38 or 44 WCF. It's almost like the '73 was made for them or something.

[Baltimoreed]

The .44-40 is the most correct cartridge, I have an original 1873 musket from 1891. But .45colt is fine in a modern ‘73. But be aware that some ‘73s are very cartridge oal sensitive so being able to switch between .357 and .38 spcl length may not be possible on your rifle. I have a Stoeger ‘73 that will run .45schofield loads and 45colt but my other uberti will only run 45colt length rounds. Might want to check it with some dummys.

[sandog]

You guys that have been saying the .357 is a high pressure Magnum cartridge and is too much for the 1873 need to consider something.
That high pressure works two ways, pressure against the barrel from the sides of the case, and pressure from back thrust against the bolt.

Back thrust from a .357 magnum is way less than a larger cartridge loaded to the same pressures due to the smaller diameter of the .357 round.
So a full power .357 is going to push against the bolt no more than a .44 or .45 loaded to less pressure.
And back thrust is what is going to matter with the 1873.

[FergusonTO35]

That is what I have always wondered about. I know the 73 isn't as stout as a 92 or Marlin 1894, but could a quality modern 73 such as a Miroku withstand a regular diet of strong (but still SAAMI spec) .357's?

[HWooldridge]

That is what I have always wondered about. I know the 73 isn't as stout as a 92 or Marlin 1894, but could a quality modern 73 such as a Miroku withstand a regular diet of strong (but still SAAMI spec) .357's?

I would say "yes" to your question about modern guns withstanding a regular diet of strong .357's. The main problem with original '73's is that the toggle action gets battered over time (the steels used then were soft). There is also no way to determine how many rounds an original rifle has fired. The locking ability becomes diminished because everything gets sloppy as the parts wear and there is no easy way to adjust the tolerances. The '92 incorporated a vertical sliding block that positively locks the bolt.

A modern gun is more likely to be made from higher quality materials and of course, there won't be any wear on a new gun. The only caveat is whether the manufacturer did a decent job at the assembly step.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I would say "yes" to your question about modern guns withstanding a regular diet of strong .357's. The main problem with original '73's is that the toggle action gets battered over time (the steels used then were soft). There is also no way to determine how many rounds an original rifle has fired. The locking ability becomes diminished because everything gets sloppy as the parts wear and there is no easy way to adjust the tolerances. The '92 incorporated a vertical sliding block that positively locks the bolt.

A modern gun is more likely to be made from higher quality materials and of course, there won't be any wear on a new gun. The only caveat is whether the manufacturer did a decent job at the assembly step.



Totally agree. The modern guns are made with better materials. The modern manufacturers are usually Italian and those guys don’t mess around with firearms. They make high quality guns and stand behind them. They wouldn’t risk reputation on trying to rate a gun for more pressure than it’s going to handle.
They also make a 44 Mag 1873 which is saying something.

With the beating that some guys have put on their guns (internet stories) If they are at all true these guns will hold up in 357 for a lifetime of shooting.

[Kosh75287]

I'd want mine in .45 Colt. It's the most like the .44/40 and .38/40, for which the rifle was originally chambered. The toggle-lock action of the '73 was not designed to handle the .357's chamber pressures, and I'd be afraid of battering it apart.
On the other hand, a .45 Colt, loaded with a modest load of 2400, could probably launch a 225 gr. TC or 250 gr. RNFP, at over 1000 f/s from the muzzle. Perhaps WELL over, before straining anything. I've never run the old black powder factory load through my M1892, but I suspect it would break 1000 - 1100 f/s with one of the above bullets, with some to spare. I know someone I can ask about that, so I'll report back.

[sandog]

I'd want mine in .45 Colt. It's the most like the .44/40 and .38/40, for which the rifle was originally chambered. The toggle-lock action of the '73 was not designed to handle the .357's chamber pressures, and I'd be afraid of battering it apart.

It's not a question of what it was designed for. The 1873 has been chambered for several cartridges that it wasn't designed for, and they do just fine.
Bolt thrust is what matters on an 1873, and the .357 has a smaller thrust "footprint" due to it's smaller diameter.
The .45 Colt, while in most forms is milder, is pushing things due to it's fat diameter.

In the Colt SAA, .357 was do-able because the skinnier cartridge allows more steel between chambers. If you've ever looked at the cylinder walls on a .45 SAA, they are pretty thin.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?395800-Bolt-Thrust-amp-Pressure

[kaiser]

I chose the .45 Colt for the following reasons: 1) I have a favorite .45 Colt pistol as a companion piece 2) both 1873’s have the same octagon barrel size, thus the .45 Colt with the bigger “hole” makes it lighter and better balanced than the .357 IMO. 3) although an 1873 in a .45 Colt can not be loaded to it’s fullest potential, it can be loaded to the the same speed as a .44 magnum pistol while utilizing a larger diameter bullet 4) the .45 Colt is a more effective round for medium sized game than the .357 5) new brass is strong for multiple loadings and is a natural for cast bullet loading. My .02

[Walks]

When I bought My first 1873 repro they weren't yet offered in .45Colt. So I never thought about any other caliber then .44-40. Had a .357Mag years later, worked just fine. My Daughter sold Hers years later. I have 2 .44-40 '73 repros; a 24" rifle and a 19" carbine. With either smokeless or black powder, both work perfectly. In .44-40 of course.
After 35+yrs with '73 copies, there is no way anyone will ever convince Me that the .44Mag is a good caliber for an 1873 copy.
Once you've had one apart it's easy to see why.

Have a 1866 copy in .45Colt, does NOT work well with Black Powder loads.

[Rapier]

I prefer the Marlin/Marlin 94C in 357 Mag and the 200g RCBS with H-110 set to function through the cylinder of a Python with my revolver ram load, with a 2x7 scope on top. I put the package together for the grandson to hunt deer and shoot Cowboy Silhouette.

[kaiser]

Walks - I have never tried Black power loads in my .45 Colt 1873. I am curious as to why black powder does not work? I have used black powder substitutes in pistols with no discernible effects, but never tried it in my 1873 rifle. I do know the rifle’s “feeding carriage” design limits the length of the .45 Colt cartridge and bullets heavier than 255 grains do not feed well.
I also own a Puma in a .357 I am impressed with its accuracy and increased velocity over a Pistol’s. I have no experience with the 44-40, but didn’t choose it because of it’s thin cases necks and .427 diameter bullets (vice .429 of the .44 or .444). I’m not a Cowboy shooter, so authenticity was not of a primary concern; however, there is no denying the 44-40 has a particular appeal historically, and it’s effectiveness on game needs no apology.

[Daekar]

Since 357mag has been used to take nearly every game species in North America using a revolver, I see little reason to choose anything else in a carbine. Sometimes more is just more.

Unless you want to suppress it, then the 45 is the way to go. You can shoot surprisingly heavy bullets in a 357, but the Colt has it beat in that area.

[Walks]

Kaiser,
In My experience the older tapered cases are a better choice then straight cases. They tend to "release" from the chamber walls easier in a Lever Gun.
The more modern straight cases work "ok" with their thicker case walls and wider rims with BP. Even though the .45Colt case has been modernized, I still think it's a poor choice for BP in a Lever Gun. Revolvers; Yes.
Just My experience.

[indian joe]

When I bought My first 1873 repro they weren't yet offered in .45Colt. So I never thought about any other caliber then .44-40. Had a .357Mag years later, worked just fine. My Daughter sold Hers years later. I have 2 .44-40 '73 repros; a 24" rifle and a 19" carbine. With either smokeless or black powder, both work perfectly. In .44-40 of course.
After 35+yrs with '73 copies, there is no way anyone will ever convince Me that the .44Mag is a good caliber for an 1873 copy.
Once you've had one apart it's easy to see why.

Have a 1866 copy in .45Colt, does NOT work well with Black Powder loads.

anneal the brass for that 45 - soften the necks right up - life will get a whole lot easier with blackpowder

[veeman]

44-40. Anything less is uncivilized. [smilie=w:

[T-Bird]

I bought a Miroku 1873 in.357 early, like when you had to wait 6 mo. to get one, and the "fancy" one's took too long to get for me to consider them. Before I made my purchase, I called Winchester, spoke to "Matt". At that time, everybody was having that weak action vs newer materials debate, anyway, I told him that I was gonna buy one in .357 and would be feeding it a steady diet of factory 158 magnum loads (may have been a bit of a fib). I told him that I did not shoot CAS but I shot regularly and was concerned about the linkage holding up. He said more than once during our conversation "you will be fine". I reported this conversation to this forum at that time. I don't worry about the strength of mine I love it.

[sharps4590]

44-40. Anything less is uncivilized. [smilie=w:

Well said.

[TNsailorman]

If I were to buy a 73 Winchester or clone it would certainly be in .44-40, the original caliber. I would be buying it for its place in history and since it was not ofered in .45 Colt or .357 magnum, why buy it in any other caliber. my personal opinion anyway, james

[Texas by God]

If I ever buy a 1873 clone, it will be in 44WCF.
I'll say the same for a 1892 clone.
I like that cartridge.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[ddixie884]

I just noticed this is an old thread. I will say that I don't think the toggle link action is up to years of .357 pressures..........

[Jeff Michel]

I have a Uberti '73 in .357, it's held up just fine for many years, lots of .357 rounds and lord knows how many .38's. My favorite though is a Uberti in 38-40.

[35 Whelen]

I just noticed this is an old thread. I will say that I don't think the toggle link action is up to years of .357 pressures..........

For a few years Uberti chambered their 1873 in .44 Magnum. I had one.

35W

[HWooldridge]

I would think modern materials greatly increase the ability of the toggle action to resist wear over time. The old guns were relatively soft - we now have the benefit of improved production and testing.

[35 Whelen]

Over the last few years a couple of photos of destroyed 1873's have surfaced. In each case the action survived while the barrel was blown out of the action in one case and the barrel had a hole blown in it in the other. I'll see if I can find them.

35W

[Michael J. Spangler]

I would like to see them.

[35 Whelen]

I would like to see them.

I thought I had saved the photos to my computer but can't find them. I know for sure that I saw them on www.cascity.com forums. I'll see if I can find them.

35W

[35 Whelen]

Found it, or at least one of the posts. Scroll down to post #25.

Smokeless in an Original 73! (https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=57837.msg692990#msg692990)

35W

[KCSO]

I had an original in 38-40 and it was sweet! Traded it for a 44-40 with a better bore and it didn't shoot any better, I was sorry I traded.

[35 Whelen]

I had an original in 38-40 and it was sweet! Traded it for a 44-40 with a better bore and it didn't shoot any better, I was sorry I traded.

Me too, only I still have it; an 1886 production (the one on top of the post)-

https://i.imgur.com/KU0u8hCl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/IjL3TwLl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/mjXamYCl.jpg

35W

[BLAHUT]

Unless you are carring a hand gun in the same calibor. I would go with the 45/70. Can load it up or down for what ever you need ?? We carry a 45/70 in bear country. More rounds in gun than shotgun and more powerful >>

[Michael J. Spangler]

I thought I had saved the photos to my computer but can't find them. I know for sure that I saw them on www.cascity.com forums. I'll see if I can find them.

35W



Oooh ok an original. Makes sense now. I thought you meant a repro.

[Tall]

I am not particularly keen on either one in a 73.My choice would be a .38/40 win
I like original chambering for that rifle,and the .38/40 is very accurate and fun to shoot..
The .32/20,.38/40 or .44/40 and I would buy one. Otherwise no.

Agree. If it's not in one of the calibers that the rifle was made in originally I would not have one. Personally the 38 WCF is a dream for reloading and shooting.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

I can't vote in the poll because there aren't any proper 1873 Winchester cartridges listed.
Here are my three choices:
#1 44WCF Plenty of power, accurate to at least 200 meters, good bullet weight for medium size game and metallic silhouette targets.
#2 38WCF Nearly as powerful , accurate out to at least 200 meters, good bullet weight for medium size game and metallic silhouette targets. A little flatter shooting than the 44WCF.
#3 32WCF Decent bullet weight for small game/varmints, pistol caliber metallic silhouette targets and maybe home defense .

[TNsailorman]

Can't vote. The only caliber I would buy in the 1873 would be the .44-40 (WCF).

[indian joe]

I can't vote in the poll because there aren't any proper 1873 Winchester cartridges listed.
Here are my three choices:
#1 44WCF Plenty of power, accurate to at least 200 meters, good bullet weight for medium size game and metallic silhouette targets.
#2 38WCF Nearly as powerful , accurate out to at least 200 meters, good bullet weight for medium size game and metallic silhouette targets. A little flatter shooting than the 44WCF.
#3 32WCF Decent bullet weight for small game/varmints, pistol caliber metallic silhouette targets and maybe home defense .

another cant vote

1 38/40
2 44/40
3 32/20

others ---not interested ...I'll wait till a proper one shows up or pass (got enough stuff in my safe)

[Michael J. Spangler]

The point of the thread was to choose one or the other option. Maybe give some pros and cons for one or the other.
Seems most people here would rather be without a gun than to have one in a non WCF cartridge.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

The point of the thread was to choose one or the other option. Maybe give some pros and cons for one or the other.
Seems most people here would rather be without a gun than to have one in a non WCF cartridge.
Yup. To at least a certain degree. The 1873 action is different than John Moses Browning designs, so I am guessing the chambers could be closer to spec. I owned an 1892 Japchester in 45 Colt and one in 357 magnum. I also owned a Rossi in 357 magnum. All three had over sized out of round chambers to allow a straight walled cartridge to enter the chamber at an angle. The 45 Colt was the worst. All three were not accurate and had blow by unless high pressure reloads were used. The Japchester 45 Colt was sent to John Taylor for gender reassignment surgery. It is now chambered in 44WCF and is accurate with light, moderate and heavy loads with smokeless and black powder. So.......basically the straight wall modern cartridges in a lever action rifle are less than attractive to me. I would rather have one less rifle than an inaccurate troublesome rifle.
This is my experience and my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[BoBSavage]

The problem with modern 73' replicas is that the early replicas used a weak part designed for the 60' and 66'. The firing pin stop is a .58" (.058?) to .79" (.079"?) diameter pin rather than the original design firing pin extension stop plate.

I would suggest periodic inspections of this pin if that is what is in your 73'. This part is no longer manufactured and at one point conversion bolt kits were available..

Weak part #104 - https://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=37&cat=Uberti+1860+Henry
Strong part #721 - https://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=40&cat=Uberti+1873+Carbine

There are photos floating around the internet of original 73's with the chambers blown out, but the toggles are not affected. However, extended wear is a major culprit on many things going bad!

[Txcowboy52]

I’m a big fan of all .45 cartridges in general and I have both the .45 and .357 in lever guns . With all honesty I shoot the .357 more . I shoot a lot of .38’s thru it . I believe it has much more flexibility over the .45 . Just MHO .

[indian joe]

The point of the thread was to choose one or the other option. Maybe give some pros and cons for one or the other.
Seems most people here would rather be without a gun than to have one in a non WCF cartridge.

my gun safe(s) does not suffer from a lack of guns so there is no "be without a gun" issue
I participated in the hope that if enough of us express this opinion the manufacturers might pull their heads out and again offer these firearms in the calibres for which they were designed at least in addition to the present situation of botched up oversize chambers, or in case of using blackpowder the constant case annealing it takes to get them to function satisfactorily.

[barnetmill]

Both 357 and 45 colt are fine cartridges for my purposes and while I favor the .45 colt, 357 brass and bullets are more economically obtained and I have a pile of .38 spl brass that can be reloaded to .357 velocities. But either are good working cartridges.
Too hard to get 25-20, 32-20, 38-40, or 44-40. Both ammo and components are not easy or cheap to find. .327 mag might be an interesting round.

[atfsux]

I'm incredibly biased because my family heirloom 1873 rifle that has been in the family since new in 1902 and which I got my first deer with is in .32-20, which is ballistically a .30Carbine, essentially. For me, I just can't imagine an 1873 in any other caliber.

But that said, I own both a Marlin CST (1894 action) in .357 that is a hoot and a half. (With the suppressor on it using .38 wadcutter target loads, it is mousefart quiet.) I also enjoy the hell out of my Puma saddle-ring .45LC carbine.

The 1873 is heavier than either of those, so it will absorb felt recoil a little better. Mine in .32-20 with a 24 inch octagon barrel is like shooting a .22! I imagine light .38 target loads in one would be equally pleasant.

[Chili]

The point of the thread was to choose one or the other option. Maybe give some pros and cons for one or the other.
Seems most people here would rather be without a gun than to have one in a non WCF cartridge.But that is what internet people do...never answer the direct question, instead they hijack and force their opinion.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

[indian joe]

But that is what internet people do...never answer the direct question, instead they hijack and force their opinion.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

Really ?? .....I didnt realise you guys were that easily coerced

[Michael J. Spangler]

I’m going to start my next thread with a new twist. I think it will work.

[Jeff Michel]

I have both calibers in the 1873. I like both, taken deer with both. I think it would be difficult to choose one over the other.

[Griff]

I have 6 rifles in 45 Colt, 2 in .357. 3 of the 6 are toggle links, 2 1873s and a steel framed 1860. The oldest was made in 1986 and probably had ~250k round thru it. No signs of loosening yet. Mostly used for cowboy action, but also hunting. Hunting with mostly factory loads, but also a few handloads (240 HPs @ ~950 fps). Action is plenty strong for both... I mean, it IS available in 44Mag.

[RyanJames170]

my pick is 45 colt, it will do anything i need a pistol caliber carbine to do, if i need more gun i will bring more gun..

[Chili]

Really ?? .....I didnt realise you guys were that easily coerced"You guys"? I make my own opinions without coercion.

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[BoBSavage]

Seems most people here would rather be without a gun than to have one in a non WCF cartridge.
Pretty much...like everyone else, if it is not available in the cartridge each prefers, I just assume get a .303, 30-30, 270 or a 30-06.

45 Colt/357 Mag/38 Spl

1. If one prefers to shoot anything at 25 yards or less such as Mousefart or Speed Action Shooting, either is perfect. The 45 works with the revolvers and rifles, of which the revolver is king. Many choose the 357 for shooting the poop poop 38 loads, thus the 357 model. For actual "Cowboy Action Shooting", one should actually choose a dash cartridge for rifles...or it really isn't cowboy cartridge shooting...i.e. 1873-1892 (Winchester 73', Winchester 92', Colt cartridge revolvers, Remington cartridge revolvers, etc.), without the dash cartridges...and namely black powder loads until 1895.
2. Shooting out to 100 yards starts the limits. The 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40 are actually rifle cartridges, while the others are pistol cartridges.
3. Shooting black powder in the 45 leaves much crud in the action, hindering accuracy...but at 25 yards....well...
4. The .45 caliber is not a pistol caliber, it is available in many options for both revolver (45 Colt pistol cartridge) and rifle (45-70 rifle cartridge).
5. The 38-40 and 44-40 are not pistol calibers, they are both "pistol sized" rifle cartridges, unlike the 45 Colt 357 Magnum and 38 special.

I have a Marlin 1894 chambered for 357 Mag. I use it as a varmint rifle at close distances.


The opinions can keep going on forever and ever, and in any direction.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Pretty much...like everyone else, if it is not available in the cartridge each prefers, I just assume get a .303, 30-30, 270 or a 30-06.

45 Colt/357 Mag/38 Spl

1. If one prefers to shoot anything at 25 yards or less such as Mousefart or Speed Action Shooting, either is perfect. The 45 works with the revolvers and rifles, of which the revolver is king. Many choose the 357 for shooting the poop poop 38 loads, thus the 357 model. For actual "Cowboy Action Shooting", one should actually choose a dash cartridge for rifles...or it really isn't cowboy cartridge shooting...i.e. 1873-1892 (Winchester 73', Winchester 92', Colt cartridge revolvers, Remington cartridge revolvers, etc.), without the dash cartridges...and namely black powder loads until 1895.
2. Shooting out to 100 yards starts the limits. The 32-40, 38-40 and 44-40 are actually rifle cartridges, while the others are pistol cartridges.
3. Shooting black powder in the 45 leaves much crud in the action, hindering accuracy...but at 25 yards....well...
4. The .45 caliber is not a pistol caliber, it is available in many options for both revolver (45 Colt pistol cartridge) and rifle (45-70 rifle cartridge).
5. The 38-40 and 44-40 are not pistol calibers, they are both "pistol sized" rifle cartridges, unlike the 45 Colt 357 Magnum and 38 special.

I have a Marlin 1894 chambered for 357 Mag. I use it as a varmint rifle at close distances.


The opinions can keep going on forever and ever, and in any direction.


Ok I can see calling them rifle cartridges but for all intents and purposes they are very close to the performance you can get with modern magnum pistol cartridges.

Even the HV 44 WCF was running a 200 grain at 1500 or so FPS from a rifle. That’s not hard for 44 mag and I bet you could get a 357 up there with a 200 grain.

Designed for rifle but just like the WSL cartridges there were anemic compared to the common rifle cartridges of the time.

This isn’t to discredit them but to say that they’re rifle cartridge so they belong there doesn’t hold much water when they’re rifle cartridges by name alone.

[BoBSavage]

Ok I can see calling them rifle cartridges but for all intents and purposes they are very close to the performance you can get with modern magnum pistol cartridges.

Even the HV 44 WCF was running a 200 grain at 1500 or so FPS from a rifle. That’s not hard for 44 mag and I bet you could get a 357 up there with a 200 grain.

Designed for rifle but just like the WSL cartridges there were anemic compared to the common rifle cartridges of the time.

This isn’t to discredit them but to say that they’re rifle cartridge so they belong there doesn’t hold much water when they’re rifle cartridges by name alone.

Not exactly.

First you threw in the 44 Mag, not part of your original question! And now we are adding a 200gr 357?

From what I can find the HV 44 WCF factory loads were not accurate beyond 100 yards, only the black powder loads were "accurate" to beyond 150 yards or so. It depends on your definition of accurate.

Townsend Whelen listed the following in 1920. Can the 45 Colt , 357 pistol cartridges match any of these power and distance loads?


CLASS A

2 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
4 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

280 Ross
30 cal Model 1906
30-40 Krag and Winchester
30 cal Model 1903
256 Mannlicher Schoenauer
25-35 WCF (in single shot)

CLASS B

2 1/2 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
6 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

7 mm Mauser
8 mm Mauser
32 Ideal
303 British
303 Savage
25-35 Rem Auto (*)
25-35 Marlin
25-30 WCF Low pressure smokeless
25-20 Single Shot
25-21 Stevens
25-25 Stevens
28-30 Stevens
22 Long Rifle (in target rifle)

CLASS C

3 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
8 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

30-30 WCF
35 Rem Auto
35 WCF 405 WCF
45-70 Black and Smokeless
32-40 Low pressure smokeless
33 WCF
32 Winchester Self Loading
32-20
25 Rimfire
38-55
22-15 Stevens

CLASS D

3 1/2 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
12 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

32 Win Special
351 Win Self Loading
351 Self Loading
32 Rem Auto (*)
45-70
45 90 HV (1)
25-20 HV and Black powder
32-20 HV (1)
38 WCF (1)
44 WCF (1)
401 Win Self Loading (2)

(1) Over 200 yards grouping is irregular
(2) Over 150 yards grouping is irregular Many black powder rifles listed in
(*) Rem Auto cartridges will show equal accuracy in Remington or Stevens rifles. Classes B and C will rank in Class A when used with hand loaded ammunition loaded by an expert


He also noted the following along with that data;

"THE ACCURACY OF HUNTING RIFLES

Below I have grouped certain of our more common rifles under several heads as regards accuracy, showing the diameter of the circle into which they can be relied upon to shoot all or nearly all of their shots at 100 and 200 yards. These data were arrived at from five or more carefully pulled groups of ten shots shot from rest at the ranges named. In a number of cases a telescope sight was used to make certain of the aim, and in the others an English orthoptic was used with open sights.

[barnetmill]

Pretty much...2. Shooting out to 100 yards starts the limits. The 32-40, 38-40 and 44-40 are actually rifle cartridges, while the others are pistol cartridges.
3. Shooting black powder in the.......... in any direction.
I believe you mean 32-20. 32-40 but then again I am not sure since was not really following everything. The two are very different.


44-40, 38-40, 32-20, and 25-20 in order as in the photo
https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/G1021-montana-1.jpg


The middle cartridge is a 32-40 and there might be more than one version of a 32-40. But it would not work in a winchester 1873 or 1892 for obvious reasons.

A picture of the .32-40 Ballard cartridge between two more common rifle cartridges, the .223 Remington on the left and the .270 Winchester on the right.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/223remmington_32-40ballard_270winchester.jpg/1024px-223remmington_32-40ballard_270winchester.jpg

[Frank V]

Well, if someone offered it as a gift I’d pick the .357. It would have mild recoil, probably be accurate, components available & inexpensive (compared to other ctgs.) & would be fun to shoot!

[Michael J. Spangler]

Not exactly.

First you threw in the 44 Mag, not part of your original question! And now we are adding a 200gr 357?

From what I can find the HV 44 WCF factory loads were not accurate beyond 100 yards, only the black powder loads were "accurate" to beyond 150 yards or so. It depends on your definition of accurate.

Townsend Whelen listed the following in 1920. Can the 45 Colt , 357 pistol cartridges match any of these power and distance loads?


CLASS A

2 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
4 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

280 Ross
30 cal Model 1906
30-40 Krag and Winchester
30 cal Model 1903
256 Mannlicher Schoenauer
25-35 WCF (in single shot)

CLASS B

2 1/2 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
6 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

7 mm Mauser
8 mm Mauser
32 Ideal
303 British
303 Savage
25-35 Rem Auto (*)
25-35 Marlin
25-30 WCF Low pressure smokeless
25-20 Single Shot
25-21 Stevens
25-25 Stevens
28-30 Stevens
22 Long Rifle (in target rifle)

CLASS C

3 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
8 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

30-30 WCF
35 Rem Auto
35 WCF 405 WCF
45-70 Black and Smokeless
32-40 Low pressure smokeless
33 WCF
32 Winchester Self Loading
32-20
25 Rimfire
38-55
22-15 Stevens

CLASS D

3 1/2 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
12 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

32 Win Special
351 Win Self Loading
351 Self Loading
32 Rem Auto (*)
45-70
45 90 HV (1)
25-20 HV and Black powder
32-20 HV (1)
38 WCF (1)
44 WCF (1)
401 Win Self Loading (2)

(1) Over 200 yards grouping is irregular
(2) Over 150 yards grouping is irregular Many black powder rifles listed in
(*) Rem Auto cartridges will show equal accuracy in Remington or Stevens rifles. Classes B and C will rank in Class A when used with hand loaded ammunition loaded by an expert


He also noted the following along with that data;

"THE ACCURACY OF HUNTING RIFLES

Below I have grouped certain of our more common rifles under several heads as regards accuracy, showing the diameter of the circle into which they can be relied upon to shoot all or nearly all of their shots at 100 and 200 yards. These data were arrived at from five or more carefully pulled groups of ten shots shot from rest at the ranges named. In a number of cases a telescope sight was used to make certain of the aim, and in the others an English orthoptic was used with open sights.

I’m not saying the 44 can match up to his rifle cartridges but neither can the 44 WCF.

200 grain 357 is totally doable.
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLyman358627.htm

[BoBSavage]

I got in a hurry and you are correct. My reference should have been for the 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40, that could be used in both revolver and rifle.

I have been dealing with the 32-40, 38-55, 30-30, 303 Savage and 30-40 Krag (.30 U.S. Army)...so I had 32-40 on the brain! I will correct it.

[BoBSavage]

I’m not saying the 44 can match up to his rifle cartridges but neither can the 44 WCF.

200 grain 357 is totally doable.
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLyman358627.htm

You lost me there, my apologies. The 44 WCF can't match up to who's rifle cartridge?

[Michael J. Spangler]

You lost me there, my apologies. The 44 WCF can't match up to who's rifle cartridge?


I meant the rifle cartridges that you had listed above. The real rifle cartridges.

Just reinforcing that the 44 WCF though listed as a rifle cartridge is really on par with the modern handgun cartridges in a lever gun.

Yes the 32-40 is a completely different animal.

[BoBSavage]

I meant the rifle cartridges that you had listed above. The real rifle cartridges.

Just reinforcing that the 44 WCF though listed as a rifle cartridge is really on par with the modern handgun cartridges in a lever gun.

Yes the 32-40 is a completely different animal.

Actually it is not when loaded correctly, the way it was loaded prior to the 1950's. The 38-40 and 44-40 will out perform any typical pistol cartridge chambered in a rifle at distances greater between 125 yards and 300 yards. This would be the 357 Magnum, 45 Colt and the 44 Magnum. The 38-40 and 44-40 HV loads were not accurate at all past 75 to 100 yards, but the 1,300fps black powder and smokeless rifle loads were. The powders at the time that allowed the 38 and 44 dash cartridges to perform were Black Powder, Dupont No. 2 smokeless and Sharpshooter smokeless powders...followed by Dupont No. 80 smokeless sporting rifle powder. Modern rifle smokeless powders such as 4227, 2400, 4198, a few other out dated powders and Reloder 7, all allow the 38 and 44 cartridges to be a bit more accurate at longer distances. It has to do with powder burn rates and the cartridge/bullet design. If the 180gr to 215gr flat base bullets can not get at least 1,300fps at the muzzle, they are basically worthless at 300 yards. Heavier bullets are needed at those distances and greater such as the 300-400gr 45-70 types...etc.

This is why the 30-30 and .303 Savage was introduced to the civilian market in 1895. While other smokeless rifle cartridges were introduced over the years, the 30-30 (1895) and the 30-06 (1906), are two of the earliest rifle cartridges that remain popular. The 45-70 is also popular, but remains more of a brush gun, than used for what it was originally designed.

Trajectory is where it's all at now days. If trajectory is not flat for 300 yards (4" to 6"),...and hardly affected by windage...folks can't hit the backside of a barn with it!

The key factor for a good rifle cartridge, is the powder burn rate. Pistol powders just won't cut it, nor are the 38-40 and 44-40 cartridges when loaded with pistol powders.

Sharpe even mentions such in 1937 regarding the 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40;

The handloader must bear in mind, however, that this cartridge is adapted to both rifle and handgun and must be loaded accordingly. Powder that burns well in the rifle barrel will not burn properly in the handgun barrel, and vice versa.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Actually it is not when loaded correctly, the way it was loaded prior to the 1950's. The 38-40 and 44-40 will out perform any typical pistol cartridge chambered in a rifle at distances greater between 125 yards and 300 yards. This would be the 357 Magnum, 45 Colt and the 44 Magnum. The 38-40 and 44-40 HV loads were not accurate at all past 75 to 100 yards, but the 1,300fps black powder and smokeless rifle loads were. The powders at the time that allowed the 38 and 44 dash cartridges to perform were Black Powder, Dupont No. 2 smokeless and Sharpshooter smokeless powders...followed by Dupont No. 80 smokeless sporting rifle powder. Modern rifle smokeless powders such as 4227, 2400, 4198, a few other out dated powders and Reloder 7, all allow the 38 and 44 cartridges to be a bit more accurate at longer distances. It has to do with powder burn rates and the cartridge/bullet design. If the 180gr to 215gr flat base bullets can not get at least 1,300fps at the muzzle, they are basically worthless at 300 yards. Heavier bullets are needed at those distances and greater such as the 300-400gr 45-70 types...etc.

This is why the 30-30 and .303 Savage was introduced to the civilian market in 1895. While other smokeless rifle cartridges were introduced over the years, the 30-30 (1895) and the 30-06 (1906), are two of the earliest rifle cartridges that remain popular. The 45-70 is also popular, but remains more of a brush gun, than used for what it was originally designed.

Trajectory is where it's all at now days. If trajectory is not flat for 300 yards (4" to 6"),...and hardly affected by windage...folks can't hit the backside of a barn with it!

The key factor for a good rifle cartridge, is the powder burn rate. Pistol powders just won't cut it, nor are the 38-40 and 44-40 cartridges when loaded with pistol powders.

Sharpe even mentions such in 1937 regarding the 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40;

The handloader must bear in mind, however, that this cartridge is adapted to both rifle and handgun and must be loaded accordingly. Powder that burns well in the rifle barrel will not burn properly in the handgun barrel, and vice versa.

Give me an example of a more modern load in a 44-40 made specifically for the rifle. I know savvyjack has done a lot of work with this to squeeze out a lot more performance.

I’m still not sure he could outperform a 44 magnum or a 45 Colt “magnumized”

[BoBSavage]

Give me an example of a more modern load in a 44-40 made specifically for the rifle. I know savvyjack has done a lot of work with this to squeeze out a lot more performance.

I’m still not sure he could outperform a 44 magnum or a 45 Colt “magnumized”

This has absolutely nothing to do with modern factory loads. It has everything to do with the intended design and use of the cartridge.

Once again I refer you to this.....

The handloader must bear in mind, however, that this cartridge is adapted to both rifle and handgun and must be loaded accordingly. Powder that burns well in the rifle barrel will not burn properly in the handgun barrel, and vice versa.

[HWooldridge]

For example, a case full of RE-7 and a 200 gr bullet is a healthy load for a rifle but a revolver is better suited to Bullseye, or WW231, or Unique, etc.

[BoBSavage]

Now to try and get this rabbit whole back on track, the OP was about a Winchester 73' chambered for 357 Magnum or 45 Colt. If you want to compare apples and oranges, as was to the original off topic complaint.....try 44 Magnum Hornady 225 gr Leverlution FTX ammunition at about 150 yards. Yes, there are 44 Magnum Uberti Winchester 73's out there. I hear it is pretty darn good. Maybe try the same thing for the 45 Colt and 357 Magnum Winchester Levergun.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/357-magnum-vs-44-magnum-lever-actions/#:~:text=44%20Mag%20lever%20action%20is,gun%20with %20some%20wiggle%20room.

[Rockindaddy]

Winchester 38-40 is a great cartridge! I have a Winchester 1873 rifle and a carbine in 38WCF. Years ago you could find 38-40's loaded with jacketed 180gr jacketed flat points. These cartridges were meant for revolvers and lever guns. They are very mild. I have taken the bullets out and dumped the propellant and recharged them with 26 grs of IMR4227 and re seated the jacketed bullet. Now you have a deer load! My 1894 Marlin shoots like it has eyes with this load. Bambi never stood a chance! I don't like to use this load in my 73' Winchesters. The 38-40 Winchester is great with cast boolits too. If ya don't like casting boolits the 40 S&W 180gr jacketed pistol bullets work great too. The hollow points look like nickels after hitting a hog or deer. Woodchucks blow up with the hollow point 40 S&W boolits. You will have a lot of opinions on 38 spec./357, 44-40 WCF, 38-40 WCF, or 45 Long Colt. Buy one of each and test em!! You will become an authority!

[Michael J. Spangler]

This has absolutely nothing to do with modern factory loads. It has everything to do with the intended design and use of the cartridge.

Once again I refer you to this.....

The handloader must bear in mind, however, that this cartridge is adapted to both rifle and handgun and must be loaded accordingly. Powder that burns well in the rifle barrel will not burn properly in the handgun barrel, and vice versa.
I agreed that rifle loads with a proper rifle powder and gain more performance.

I guess I’m confused on what the point is though. Maybe I misunderstood but I thought you were saying 44 WCF is a higher performance cartridge than the modern pistol caliber cartridges.

Did I misinterpret that somewhere in the mix?

Also I’m the OP so I approve of the rabbit hole side tracks. I much prefer this type of conversation about ballistics and cartridges than one word answers.

[BoBSavage]

I misunderstood but I thought you were saying 44 WCF is a higher performance cartridge than the modern pistol caliber cartridges.

Did I misinterpret that somewhere in the mix?

Also I’m the OP so I approve of the rabbit hole side tracks. I much prefer this type of conversation about ballistics and cartridges than one word answers.

From what I can find, and from what I understand, the 44-40, being a rifle cartridge, performs best out of a rifle when the appropriate rifle powder is used to it's fullest extent. So yes, when loaded as a revolver cartridge, or when other "pistol cartridges" are loaded for use in rifles with pistol powders, they are inferior...the pistol "sized" rifle dash cartridges are superior for long distance (200 to 300 yards) and accuracy. "Accuracy" based on Townsend Whelen's 1920 data.

However, if you look at those Hornady Leverevolution rifle loads I mentioned, a correctly loaded 44-40 (and even the 38-40 respectively) can be superior when loaded correctly, NOT HV loads.



357 Magnum 140gr LeverRevolution
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Come Up (MOA) Come Up (MILS) Wind Drift Wind Drift (MOA) Wind Drift (MILS)
0 1440 645 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 1154 414 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 992 306 -24.6 11.7 3.4 0 0 0
300 895 249 -84.4 26.8 7.8 0 0 0
400 821 209 -187.6 44.8 13 0 0 0
500 759 179 -342.7 65.4 19 0 0 0

44 Magnum 225gr LeveRevolution
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Come Up (MOA) Come Up (MILS) Wind Drift Wind Drift (MOA) Wind Drift (MILS)
0 1410 993 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 1102 607 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 947 448 -26.9 12.9 3.7 0 0 0
300 849 360 -92.6 29.5 8.6 0 0 0
400 774 299 -206.5 49.3 14.3 0 0 0
500 709 251 -378.9 72.3 21 0 0 0


45 Colt 225gr LeveRevolution
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Come Up (MOA) Come Up (MILS) Wind Drift Wind Drift (MOA) Wind Drift (MILS)
0 960 460 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 855 366 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 776 301 -46 22 6.4 0 0 0
300 708 251 -149.9 47.7 13.9 0 0 0
400 649 210 -323.5 77.2 22.5 0 0 0
500 594 177 -580 110.7 32.2 0 0 0


Range Velocity Energy
300, 900 to 950, 390 to 412, 217gr 44-40 correctly loaded for rifle use.

[Michael J. Spangler]

From what I can find, and from what I understand, the 44-40, being a rifle cartridge, performs best out of a rifle when the appropriate rifle powder is used to it's fullest extent. So yes, when loaded as a revolver cartridge, or when other "pistol cartridges" are loaded for use in rifles with pistol powders, they are inferior...the pistol "sized" rifle dash cartridges are superior for long distance (200 to 300 yards) and accuracy. "Accuracy" based on Townsend Whelen's 1920 data.

However, if you look at those Hornady Leverevolution rifle loads I mentioned, a correctly loaded 44-40 (and even the 38-40 respectively) can be superior when loaded correctly, NOT HV loads.



357 Magnum 140gr LeverRevolution
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Come Up (MOA) Come Up (MILS) Wind Drift Wind Drift (MOA) Wind Drift (MILS)
0 1440 645 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 1154 414 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 992 306 -24.6 11.7 3.4 0 0 0
300 895 249 -84.4 26.8 7.8 0 0 0
400 821 209 -187.6 44.8 13 0 0 0
500 759 179 -342.7 65.4 19 0 0 0

44 Magnum 225gr LeveRevolution
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Come Up (MOA) Come Up (MILS) Wind Drift Wind Drift (MOA) Wind Drift (MILS)
0 1410 993 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 1102 607 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 947 448 -26.9 12.9 3.7 0 0 0
300 849 360 -92.6 29.5 8.6 0 0 0
400 774 299 -206.5 49.3 14.3 0 0 0
500 709 251 -378.9 72.3 21 0 0 0


45 Colt 225gr LeveRevolution
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Come Up (MOA) Come Up (MILS) Wind Drift Wind Drift (MOA) Wind Drift (MILS)
0 960 460 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 855 366 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 776 301 -46 22 6.4 0 0 0
300 708 251 -149.9 47.7 13.9 0 0 0
400 649 210 -323.5 77.2 22.5 0 0 0
500 594 177 -580 110.7 32.2 0 0 0


Range Velocity Energy
300, 900 to 950, 390 to 412, 217gr 44-40 correctly loaded for rifle use.


Ok so you’re saying 44-40 can be superior. When loaded PROPERLY. Properly meaning a rifle load and not a pistol loading.
In what exactly?
Accuracy?
Energy?
Velocity?

[BoBSavage]

Ok so you’re saying 44-40 can be superior. - All three - YES
When loaded PROPERLY. - YES
Properly meaning a rifle load and not a pistol loading. CORRECT

In what exactly? - RIFLE...to include the modern Winchester 73's

Accuracy? - YES
Energy? - YES, pending bullet weight, muzzle velocity and impact velocity at a given range.
Velocity? - YES, at longer distances. The 38-40 and 44-40 bullet profiles are a bit more aerodynamic than the typical 357-44 mag types.


You may have already noticed that Hornady dropped the bullet weights for the 45 Colt and 44 Magnum for their LeverRevolution loads. Again, it is about rifle vs revolver....and referring to rifle performance....and what the shooter is looking for in performance.

For a Winchester 73', my choices in order and why would be

Rifle-38-40 - flatter trajectory
Rifle-44-40 - long distance performance (300 yards)
Rifle-44 Magnum - longer distances (150 yards)- 225gr
Carbine-44 Magnum - up close and personal - 240gr
Carbine-45 Colt - up close but not as personal - 250gr
Carbine-357 Magnum - a slight extension of a handgun
Carbine-38 Special - plinking

[Michael J. Spangler]

You may have already noticed that Hornady dropped the bullet weights for the 45 Colt and 44 Magnum for their LeverRevolution loads. Again, it is about rifle vs revolver....and referring to rifle performance....and what the shooter is looking for in performance.

For a Winchester 73', my choices in order and why would be

Rifle-38-40 - flatter trajectory
Rifle-44-40 - long distance performance (300 yards)
Rifle-44 Magnum - longer distances (150 yards)- 225gr
Carbine-44 Magnum - up close and personal - 240gr
Carbine-45 Colt - up close but not as personal - 250gr
Carbine-357 Magnum - a slight extension of a handgun
Carbine-38 Special - plinking


Please quantify the 38-40 and 44-40 loads with bullet weights and velocity.

[BoBSavage]

Please quantify the 38-40 and 44-40 loads with bullet weights and velocity.

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