Rossi 92 45 Colt inaccurate with cast

[hornady308]

I have an M92 Puma with a 24" oct barrel in 45LC that simply will not shoot cast bullets accurately at 100 yards. Over the last 4 years, I've tried the following cast bullets: Saeco 200gr swc, Lee 452-200-rf, Lee TL452-230-tc, Lee 452-255-rf, Lyman 454485 & 454424, NOE 454-255-HP, Lee 452-300-rf. I've tried bullets sized at .452 and .454, but neither has worked. I finally broke down and bought a box of Hornady 250 XTP hollow points, and they worked great. My bore slugs .451 and the rifle looks new. I've tried slow loads, hot loads, soft and hard bullets, slow powders, fast powders, etc. I've cleaned the bore several times with Barnes CR-10, but leading has been light. I have another Rossi in .44 Mag and it is very accurate with every cast bullet I've tried. Any suggestions?

[DougGuy]

Might want to do a pound cast and compare the results from both rifles. Something in there is blatantly amiss..

[Ed Barrett]

What do you consider good accuracy at 100 yards for 45 colt?

[hornady308]

This is what I call accuracy at 100 yards:
134379

But, this is typical of what I get with cast at 100 yards:
134381134384

Just a bit of a difference. I would be satisfied with 3" groups at 100 yards. That's about as far as I'd shoot when woods hunting. My R92 44 will easily do 2" at that distance.

[hornady308]

Tried a new load today: Lee 452-300-rf, sized .454, with 24gr H110 and a CCI 350 primer. Four of five shots went into a group of 3.8" at 100 yards, but a flier opened the group to over 6". It seems almost every group shot from this rifle has one or more fliers. At least this load shows some promise. Of course, I have no need for this much power considering I only hunt whitetails.
134590

[DougGuy]

That's actually a dangerous load if the boolit is seated out long in the bottom crimp groove. 23.0gr should be MAX for H110 seated out long. You are seating deeper, in the top crimp groove and loading 24.0gr of H110? I don't know where you got this load but I am fairly certain you won't find it in any printed/published loading manual because it is well up into the .454 Casull pressures.

[hornady308]

Current data on the Hodgdon website shows a max load of 24gr H110 with a 325gr cast bullet. My bullets weigh less than that by quite a bit.

[nekshot]

I have a gun that despises cast also, but on yours I would clean up the crown and fire lap it. Maybe the barrel is tight under some dove tails or something that sizes the boolit down too much for the rest of the jurney down the tube.

[DougGuy]

Current data on the Hodgdon website shows a max load of 24gr H110 with a 325gr cast bullet. My bullets weigh less than that by quite a bit.

Mine go 320gr checked and lubed, Lyman #2 alloy. The data Hodgdon lists is for a cast PB not a GC boolit. What is your COA measurement? Afaik, 1.680" will not feed in the Rossi unless you modify a few things.

These are seated to 1.650" COA, and they are in the bottom crimp groove. I doubt they would feed in a factory stock Rossi as assembled.


http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/0d3c189d-b085-4d95-a658-1f0f88b78255_zps3f37d14d.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/0d3c189d-b085-4d95-a658-1f0f88b78255_zps3f37d14d.jpg.html)

[gon2shoot]

Tested a Rossi today, (Lee 255 RFN 17gr of 2400), 3 inch group with CCI primer, 1 1/2 inch with Win. primer. 10 shot string using starline brass, homespun lube.
Target at roughly 80 yds because 100 yds is under water.

[Bphunter]

I have a Uberti '73 in 45 Colt that shot exactly like yours...great with jacketed, terrible with cast and I tried a LOT of cast bullet combos. Then I discovered PSB. Lee 452-255-RF with 17 gr IMR4227 topped with 5.2 gr PSB, just enough for SLIGHT compression. Viola! Groups went from 6" to 1.5" @ 100 yards, 1100 fps over the chrony. Do your own due diligence on PSB before deciding if it's right for you. There is risk involved and you better know what you are doing. If you don't have Qload and a good chrony I wouldn't mess with it.

[hornady308]

I have the Lee 300's seated long and crimped in the bottom groove. They won't feed in the 92, so I load them as a single shot. At this time, I'm just chasing accuracy. It is my understanding that the gas check has a negligible effect on pressure. Hodgdon shows a max of 23.5gr H110 with a 335gr GC cast bullet.

[hornady308]

"If you don't have Qload and a good chrony I wouldn't mess with it."

I have the chrony, but not Qload. I wonder why a buffer would help when using a gas check bullet?

[Bphunter]

You got me there! I have the 300 gr Lee mold with GC, but I don't have any .45 GC's, so I shot them w/o and still had terrible accuracy even at 1100 fps. Pressure builds too quick for my '73 to get too excited about the 300 gr boolits, so I haven't pursued it.

[hornady308]

I don't really want to use 300+ grain bullets, I just tried them cuz nuthin' else has worked. I could try some 250-255 pb with buffer and see how it works. What do I have to lose? I didn't get a 45 Colt rifle just to waste money on copper bullets.

[DougGuy]

I have the Lee 300's seated long and crimped in the bottom groove. They won't feed in the 92, so I load them as a single shot. At this time, I'm just chasing accuracy. It is my understanding that the gas check has a negligible effect on pressure. Hodgdon shows a max of 23.5gr H110 with a 335gr GC cast bullet.

You may be okay with that seated out long. I know the Rossi is a stout action, they chamber them in .454 Casull, but that's also using Casull brass..

I am thinking there is something in the chamber or throat that is different from the .44 because just the diameter of the booilt wouldn't explain good groups in one barrel and lousy groups in another. Like the .45 has some unsupported space that allows the boolits to cant before they hit rifling. Something is up there, that's why I mentioned doing a pound cast with both rifles.

[Indio]

Have you checked the throat/free bore? I have a Marlin 45-70 im trying to squeeze more accuracy out of. I loaded a flat based pill backwards seating it deeper until it would chamber without binding. I found I can add a full diameter band ahead of the crimp groove 0.12 long using cases at max length.. I will be getting a mold made by accurate molds with this included. As I understand it a large amount of jump is a bad thing with cast pills

[DougGuy]

Freebore, as in smooth parallel bore the same diameter or half thousandth bigger than the boolit is a good thing for cast. It lowers pressure, increases velocity, and if it fits the boolit snugly, it keeps it squared up and aligned for when it hits rifling. Usually cuts groups too.

Un-supported free space like what you have with shooting a .38 Special in a .357 Magnum is not good.

[Larry Gibson]

Hornady308

Try the Saeco or Lee 200 gr bullets cast of COWWs + 2% tin or #2 alloy sized .452 and lubed with a soft lube such as 50/50 or BAC over 6.8 - 7.3 gr of Bullseye. Has been an excellent load in numerous SAAs, carbines and rifles in 45 Colt. That includes a Rossi 24" barreled rifle.

Larry Gibson

[Indio]

Freebore, as in smooth parallel bore the same diameter or half thousandth bigger than the boolit is a good thing for cast. It lowers pressure, increases velocity, and if it fits the boolit snugly, it keeps it squared up and aligned for when it hits rifling. Usually cuts groups too.

Un-supported free space like what you have with shooting a .38 Special in a .357 Magnum is not good.
Maybe freebore wasn't the correct term to use, the projectile I used to check the unsupported jump was sized .463, my loaded projectiles are .461 and my bore slugs out to .459. I dont think an totally unsupported 0.12 jump is helpful for accuracy, or at least is worth removing to test if accuracy improves IMO

[Artful]

I've tried slow loads, hot loads, soft and hard bullets, slow powders, fast powders, etc.

Tell me more about what you have tried, please. powder's etc.

If it will shoot with J-word you should be able to find a boolit it will like.

[Calamity Jake]

I'm with Larry here go light, 200gr or less. That Rossi has a 1-16 twist.
I shoot cowboy levergun sillywet out to 200 meters, could not get my 24" rossi to shoot heavy boolits
accurately(6+ at 100 yards) until I went light, I use an RCBS 45-185 for the ACP
sized at .454 pushed with 6.5 of Vit. N320
This load shoots about 2.5" a 100 from a rest using a long range tang sight.

[firebrick43]

I have a Uberti '73 in 45 Colt that shot exactly like yours...great with jacketed, terrible with cast and I tried a LOT of cast bullet combos. Then I discovered PSB. Lee 452-255-RF with 17 gr IMR4227 topped with 5.2 gr PSB, just enough for SLIGHT compression. Viola! Groups went from 6" to 1.5" @ 100 yards, 1100 fps over the chrony. Do your own due diligence on PSB before deciding if it's right for you. There is risk involved and you better know what you are doing. If you don't have Qload and a good chrony I wouldn't mess with it.


Your playing with fire shooting hotter than saami loads out of a 1873. Toggle link actions are not know for digesting hot loads like the 1892's

[Lonegun1894]

Rossi uses a 1:30" ROT and NOT a 1:16". My .45 Colt 20" round barrel Rossi 92 does 2.5-3" with irons at 100 when using anything sized .454". If I size to .452", it almost doubles the group size.

[hornady308]

Well, after listening to you all, I decided to seat a Lee 457-340 into one of my fired cases. These bullets mic .458. I had no trouble getting these dummy cartridges to load fully into the chamber. Now that's what I call a generous chamber. So, I think I have found the cause of my inaccuracy. All of my .45 bullets are too small for the throat. The Lee 340gr bullets should work, but I don't want or need a bullet of that weight.

[hornady308]

A photo of a loaded round with the .458 bullets. Of course, these will not feed from the magazine.
134736

[fecmech]

The Lee 340gr bullets should work, but I don't want or need a bullet of that weight.
Sounds like it might be time to give Accurate molds a call and order what you want in the size you want.

[hornady308]

Actually, I just tried some of the Ranch Dog 460-300-rf sized .457 and they not only chamber easily, they also cycle through the action very smoothly. I'll give these a try this week and report back.

[hornady308]

Actually, I just tried some of the Ranch Dog 460-300-rf sized .457 and they not only chamber easily, they also cycle through the action very smoothly. I'll give these a try this week and report back.
134762

[Artful]

I'm crossing my fingers for ya :Luvcastboolits:

[DougGuy]

These are the 454190 LRN boolit, 255gr sized .4555" something like this may work for you as dropped from the mold. I made a custom expander plug (stock Lee on the left measures .4515" the one I made on the right measures .454") this is also the largest boolit that will fit in the Lee .45 Colt seating die, and I had to flare and polish the bottom of this die to get it to accept the case mouth as it was flared from the expander plug. If you look real close, you can see a ring on the boolit just in front of the crimp, where the crimping ring was just beginning to want to shave lead from the boolit. Sized to .456" I think this crimp die will shave the boolit a tiny bit during the crimp process, so keep this in mind when sourcing boolits and dies for your rifle.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/Lyman454190samples-pasted_zpsrpg1dx3t.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/Lyman454190samples-pasted_zpsrpg1dx3t.jpg.html)

[hornady308]

I will have to alter my seating die since .457 bullets are slightly shaved during seating/crimping.

Today I tried the RD TLC460-300-RF sized at .457 with 22gr H110. As seen below, 7 of 8 shots went into a group of less than 4" at 100 yds. But one shot opened the group considerably. Regardless, this shows some improvement, but I'm still disappointed.134930

[w30wcf]

Glad to see that you made some progress. I shoot .457's in my Marlin cowboy and they have worked well. I use a Lyman 45-70 expander. Perhaps if you could eliminate the bit of shaving, things would improve more.

Perhaps the magazine fitting tight to the barrel is not helping. If you loosen the mag retaining screw 1/2 turn perhaps that would help.

w30wcf

[snaketail]

The quick answer is your boolits are too small. I found that my Rossi would only shoot accurately with .454 Boolits. .452s were all over the place. My load was 20gr of IMR4227 pushing a 250r SWC .454 cast boolit. Hogdon lists this as a "Cowboy" load.

[Harter66]

The 16" I load for I had to back off from 9.5 to 8.5 Unique with the 452 252 SWC . It grouped the RBH hog load of 9.5 into feet at 50 yd while the 8.5 made 75 yd 6" hits easy. It killed hogs fine as well. The paper patched load seems to show some promise at 19.0 H110 with a Keith style boolit at 257 gr. All at .454 in Winchester brass w/CCI LPM primers.

[35 Whelen]

Your playing with fire shooting hotter than saami loads out of a 1873. Toggle link actions are not know for digesting hot loads like the 1892's

First, todays '73's are chambered in 357 Magnum and 44 Magnum, both 36,000 psi cartridges. Second, 17 gr. of IMR-4227 is somewhat below max according to many sources.

35W

[firebrick43]

First chamber pressure has little to do with damaging the toggle links. It's bolt thrust which is pressure and head size together. So 357 mag is irrelevant as . The 44 mag is however. They use specially heat treated parts in the 44 mags that are being built. Many 73 smiths still think this is a bad idea (due to design) and all that I know will not work on 44 mag guns. Your 45 colt gun does NOT have these special heat treated parts (unless you installed them and irresponsibly forgot to mention it). Nor do others 45 colt guns.

17 grains is below max in ruger only loads(which are ok in modern 1892's) but is at max or maybe slightly over for 1873's. Again in my opinion is irresponsible to publish for 73 and probably risk at least accelerated wear to the action.

[hornady308]

Good news. Today I tried several types of unsized boolits weighing 250-320 gr in the Rossi with 9gr Unique. The rifle put six NOE 454-255-rf bullets into a group of < 3.5" at 100 yds. These bullets drop from mold at .457 and were lubed with LLA. This was the best group, but I saw promise with the 310gr design, but believe I need more velocity to fully stabilize these bullets. So, things are looking up.

[35 Whelen]

First chamber pressure has little to do with damaging the toggle links. It's bolt thrust which is pressure and head size together. So 357 mag is irrelevant as . The 44 mag is however. They use specially heat treated parts in the 44 mags that are being built. Many 73 smiths still think this is a bad idea (due to design) and all that I know will not work on 44 mag guns. Your 45 colt gun does NOT have these special heat treated parts (unless you installed them and irresponsibly forgot to mention it). Nor do others 45 colt guns.

17 grains is below max in ruger only loads(which are ok in modern 1892's) but is at max or maybe slightly over for 1873's. Again in my opinion is irresponsible to publish for 73 and probably risk at least accelerated wear to the action.

Thanks. Sounds like you have background in firearms design and engineering...either that or you've read the same misinformation that's been repeatedly regurgitated on internet forums by those who baselessly claim to be experts on the subject. I'd like to know where you get your information on heat-treated parts, "73 smiths", etc. Heck, I've gone through two of my own '73's. does that make me an expert in the area?

From: Modern Reloading - Second Edition - Richard Lee
250 gr. Lead; IMR-4227- 17.7 grs. 890 fps

Remarks: never exceed; min. OAL: 1.600; 14,000 cup

From Speer #14 (Tested in a Colt Peacemaker):



Wt.

Bullet

Powder Manufacturer

Powder

Charge

Velocity (FPS)



250

Speer LSWC

IMR

IMR-4227

17.0

775



Remarks: start charge



250

Speer LSWC

IMR

IMR-4227

19.0

904



Remarks: maximum charge




Lots more where that came from.


To the OP, glad you've figured this out, but what a shame you have to use such large bullets. I don't suppose the oversize throat would be a warranty-able item, would it?

35W

[hornady308]

I'm the 2nd owner, so I doubt there's any warranty, but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

[firebrick43]

Thanks. Sounds like you have background in firearms design and engineering...either that or you've read the same misinformation that's been repeatedly regurgitated on internet forums by those who baselessly claim to be experts on the subject. I'd like to know where you get your information on heat-treated parts, "73 smiths", etc. Heck, I've gone through two of my own '73's. does that make me an expert in the area?

From: Modern Reloading - Second Edition - Richard Lee
250 gr. Lead; IMR-4227- 17.7 grs. 890 fps

Remarks: never exceed; min. OAL: 1.600; 14,000 cup

From Speer #14 (Tested in a Colt Peacemaker):



Wt.
Bullet
Powder Manufacturer
Powder
Charge
Velocity (FPS)


250
Speer LSWC
IMR
IMR-4227
17.0
775


Remarks: start charge


250
Speer LSWC
IMR
IMR-4227
19.0
904


Remarks: maximum charge



Lots more where that came
35W

Do any of the "lots more where that came" have 5.6 grains of psb included??

sorry, not a professional fire arms designer. Engineering experience is just some large engines. I mean large pistons and cylinders, large charges of burning fuel, in an enclosed cylinder, transmitting large thrust loads through wrist pins, link(rod) and crank pins all made out of heat treated steel. No similarities what so ever.

Heaven for me to invoke common knowledge contrary to you ideas. I mean if your 45 uberti's still has a pined firing pin extension that seperates and comes back into your face. Or an early model that does not have a trigger block and fires before it locks up. Or small diameter pins the wear from cycling many mouse fart loads from high volume cowboy action shooters. I mean high bolt thrust won't add any more stress will it. Small little pins won't fatigue will they?

I am am sure that winchester really didn't ask John Moses Browning to design a scaled down version of his 1886 design (1892) for any reason other than something new and different? I mean why would anyone replace a fast smooth action such as a 73 with something slower to operate, harder to clean, and not as smooth?? I mean they were not worried about the new smokeless powder.

I jump all over it. I will call call uberti's in my best Italian and ask them to send you all their blueprints, specifications, steel analysis and stress simulation.

[rondog]

Would someone be so kind to tell me what "PSB" is? And what is a "pound cast"?

[Harter66]

A pound cast is found in the stickies at the top of the cast bullets forum header .
basically you fill a case a little over 3/4 or into the neck with lead then use a soft bullet to fill the neck leade and throat area and using a rod and mallet force it up to make an imprint of that area .

PSB I suspect is a fast bulky powder that I'm not familiar with it may be a personal dictionary auto correct error also. There is PB and Promo that are very fast small charge powders it is likely to be in that same range.

[35 Whelen]

PSB is a fine granulated plastic shots hell buffer. It's commonly used as a case filler in place of Cream of Wheat. Ive used it extensively in my 303 British. As recommended by others on this board I add the weight of the buffer to the weight of the projectile when determining loads. Works wonders when using undersized bullets and eliminates leading.

Firebrick, you're off on a rabbit trail and are taking the thread in an entirely different direction. If loading for certain firearms frightens you, then don't do it. But you need to realize that just because it scares you doesn't mean you need to go on a personal crusade to save us all from ourselves. If you want.to.continue the discussion regarding the strength or lack thereof of a Uberti lever rifles, you should do so either through a PM or.by initiating another thread.

35W

[firebrick43]

No, 35 Whelen, it is you that have lead us down the rabbit hole. You should have never even posted anything about a 73 in a thread talking about warm loads in 92's.

If I see something that is dangerous I am morally obligated to point that out. I sure hope others feel the same, no matter if it ruffles your feathers or not. If I prevent one person from sticking a firing pin extension in the face or even wasting their money by wrecking the action, I am ok with that.

[Harter66]

I'm sure that it has been pointed out that the referenced loads are Ruger /TC only loads.

[hornady308]

I spoke with Steve Young of Steve's Gunz and he said my chamber dimensions are typical for the Rossi and are within SAAMI spec. This means that there is no warranty issue to present.

[bigted]

I spoke with Steve Young of Steve's Gunz and he said my chamber dimensions are typical for the Rossi and are within SAAMI spec. This means that there is no warranty issue to present.

I have a Winchester "92" and its chamber is exactly as you describe yours to be. I also load .457 boolits and need to give Tom a call at Accurate Molds and have him build me a .457 diameter mold that throws around 250 or 260 grain boolits. thing that makes me grin is that I can load squib loads of trail boss under the Lee 459-405HB boolit sized to .457 and it is quiet and accurate nough to take deer sized animules close to hand.

I have thought bout having it relined to have a nice tight chamber but heck ... this is such a slick rifle [24 inch round barrel] that I hate to mess with it too much.

the other thing I would mention is case life. when I do not size my brass ... I can slightly flair the mouth and seat the .457 boolits with slight pressure and the cases don't get worked at all except for flairing and crimping and then firing.

before I began the "no sizing" thing ... I lost several cases to excessive sizing and blown back out to chamber dimensions and hence the blown sides and cracks in the brass cases.

[Harter66]

Enter a use for the Lee carbide FDC. (There is a limited run collet die the is completely different ) . It is a near perfect neck sizer for the generous chamber in the 92' I load for. The land groove is tight on this 1 while the fired mouth will take 455 slip and 456 with a flair. This 1 is "correcter" at the case mouth and for about .30 then it flairs out from .484+ to over .495. Using the FDC on the top .300 or so only takes it down to .480 (it's from a 45 ACP set) the expander doesnt touch until the flair . I also use the Enfield case tape forming trick to get the cases closer to center/straight instead of all fish bellied.

[newfie bullet]

dougGuy,
that's a nice bullet you got there, what mould is that one from?
regards
newfie bullet

[35 Whelen]

I'm really glad I ran across this thread. I've had in the back of my mind I might pick up one of these Rossi's to go with my 45 Colt Vaquero, but it wouldn't make much sense to have to load two different types of ammunition.

35W

[hornady308]

That's exactly how I ended up in this situation. I expected to be able to use the same exact load in both, but that ain't going to happen. Oh well. And don't think about getting a Taurus Thunderbolt because it has the same giant chamber to go along with a .452 bore.

[bigted]

bout the only fix I see is trading the 45's for 44WCF's ... course that will be contingent on the arms themselves ... I can just see it now ... trade off all the 45's and sell the stuff goes with em and have the very same trouble with the 44's.