armor-all and tru oil

[fast ronnie]

I'm getting ready to put some finish on a new walnut stock. A friend suggested I look at a thread on the marlin owners site about using armor-all, then putting tru oil on top of it. Supposedly, it cures almost instantly instead of waiting for a few days. Has anyone here tried this, and how well does it work. I want a nice shiny stock but don't want urethane. There will be no stain, as the stock is the color I want already.

[Themoose]

I've done it... actually you put the armour all on top of the tru oil...and rub it in... it will dry to the touch in minutes...there is a thread on it somewhere... it is not completely clear...and will slightly darken it(kind of yellow tint, like the tru oil)... you can always use some 00000 steel wool after the last coat dries to remove any gloss.

[Jim_P]

I finish stocks all the time. Hand rubbing Tru-Oil until you generate some friction and the oil dries is the best way. Armor-All contains silicons. Those silicons will create a barrier against good adhesion between coats of Tru-Oil. I can imagine a finish done this way will begin to flake off in a short time.

Best way to use Tru-oil is to whisker and sand down to minimum of 400 wet or dry sand paper. Once you've whisker'd and have the stock butter smooth, you can either fill with Birchwood-Casey Filler and Sealer or use the Tru-Oil and 400 Wet or Dry with the oil acting as a lube and glue to fill the stock pores. Work small areas at a time There's lots of post on these forums on how to do this well.

Then sand off the filler and sealer with 800 grit paper. Dust the stock, vacuum it, dust it again, blow it clean with compressed air. Do everything you can to make sure there no sanding dust left in the nooks or crannies. With the stock as clean as you can get it, place 3 or 4 drops of Tru-oil on one side of the butt of the stock and start rubbing with the grain. Add more a drop at a time as needed, but you don't want so much oil that your giving the stock a massage. You'll feel your hand heat up from friction - like rubbing your two hands together. The oil should be almost dry and may even begin to squeak. Move to the other side of the butt and repeat. Follow this pattern until the whole stock is covered. You only need 20 or so drops to do the whole stock. Hang the stock up and let it dry at least 24 hours.

Take out the stock from it's drying place and lightly rub the entire stock with 0000 steel wool. You just want to break the sheen and clean up any drips. If you see a large drip carefully slice it off the surface with a razor blade. Repeat the cleaning and then the oil rubbing. If you sealed the wood pores properly your finish should be glassy smooth after each coat. If not, buff with the steel wool a bit deeper until the next coat is glassy smooth. You want to build up at least 5 coats of glassy smooth finish to protect against weather, even then I suggest 10 coats for wear. Your coats are really thin. 20 or so drops isn't even a teaspoon!

Once you've got all the coats on, you can take the shine down with some Birchwood-Casey Stock Sheen and Conditioner. This will allow you to sneak up on the level of sheen you want as it works a bit slow. If you want it glossier, then Brownells 3F and 5F compound with felt pads work great. What ever you do, a good coat of wax is important. That spray stuff your wife uses to dust the furniture is not what I'm talking about. Use some good wax like Minwax or Butchers Wax.

You should have a finish you'll be proud of.

[oldred]

Wow, this is interesting indeed and on the surface sounds like a serious contradiction, normally Amor-all and any kind of finish would seem to be about as compatible as screen doors and submarines! In my paint shop I will not even allow Armor-all or any other silicone based product to even come inside the building never mind actually applying it to any surface that I would want anything to stick to! Not sure how this works and to be honest it just doesn't sound like a good idea at all but apparently for some reason it does appear to work and if it doesn't adversely affect adhesion it just might be the solution to an age old problem with Tru-oil, I always liked the stuff but absolutely hated the dry time to the point that I didn't even bother with it.



[EDIT:] After taking a few minutes to think about this and after reading Jim's reply that was posted while I was typing I think maybe I might have some serious questions about this, the problem would seem to be the obvious incompatibility of these two products but of course I am only speculating. When reading the OP I was thinking maybe a chemical reaction causing the Tru-oil to harden but I just can't see that happening, try as I might all I can see happening here is a situation with adhesion issues. Could it be that the Tru-oil is not drying at all but rather just taking on a silicone slick surface and the lack of tackiness due to the silicone is being mistaken for drying? Again I am just speculating but knowing from experience what even microscopic droplets of Armor-all can do to wet paint I just can't for the life of me see how adhesion issues would not be a problem?

[Old Scribe]

I have used Laurel Mountain Forge products with great results. Their website gives you the information for the particular results you are looking for.

[waksupi]

I've finished around 500 stocks over the years. Truoil is the least labor intensive finish. I've done quite a few of the stocks to exhibition grade.
For Truoil, I sand to 320, then steel wool the wood. Apply three coats of Truoil, then rub out with 0000 steel wool. Repeat until the pores are filled. Once the pores are filled, do a final rub out with the 0000, and then rub down the stock with paper towels. This gives a great hand rubbed look. If I get a run during the process, I steel wool it down to blend with the surface, then go back to the regular finish process.

[pietro]

I've finished around 500 stocks over the years. Truoil is the least labor intensive finish. I've done quite a few of the stocks to exhibition grade.
For Truoil, I sand to 320, then steel wool the wood. Apply three coats of Truoil, then rub out with 0000 steel wool. Repeat until the pores are filled. Once the pores are filled, do a final rub out with the 0000, and then rub down the stock with paper towels. This gives a great hand rubbed look. If I get a run during the process, I steel wool it down to blend with the surface, then go back to the regular finish process.

I've done mush the same thing, in over 40 years of finishing gunstocks - but also use a strong "U" magnet, run all over the stock, to remove minute traces of steel wool that linger.

I only use one fingertip to apply the small drop/dollop of TO to the stock, rubbing each dot out to about the size of a dollar bill, and/or until the applied area starts to "squeak" as it's rubbed, before moving on to an adjacent area to repeat the method until the entire stock receives each coat.

The overnite (minimum) drying time between coats of TO are crucial to obtaining a great final finish.

Depending upon the density of a particular stock's wood, I've gotten a very nice finish with as few as 3 coats of TO, and as much as 10 coats.

Since the OP stated he wants a "nice, shiney finish", he should just wax the last coat after it deies, ILO rubbing it down with 0000 steel wool to a nice sheen.




.

[bangerjim]

As said - ArmorAll and finishes do not mix...silicone is the devil in the mix. Silicone is horrible at creating fish-eyes and keeping finishes (paint and everything else!) from sticking.

Leave the ArmorAll for slicking up your tires and plastic auto seats.....not wood finishing. Keep it out of your finishing shop all together and in the garage.

And for removing dust, steel wool, and other surface things that will ruin a good finish...use a wood finishing tack cloth. They are far better than just a dry "soft" rag. They are tacky and pick up ever last bit of gunk. And they last almost forever! I have several around the shop and one that I use on all my finishing is going on 15 years old! A wood finishing tack cloth is made of cheese cloth and special resins that do not dry out. Will not harm the finishes between coats either. They are NOT those horrible stiff rag things auto store sell as paint tack cloths!!!!!! Avoid those things for fine wood finishing.

banger-j

[gnoahhh]

I too can't imagine ArmorAll being allowed any where near a finishing job.

I quit using TruOil a long time ago when I found I can mix my own with stuff I always have at hand in my shop. 50/50 spar varnish/pure tung oil or boiled linseed oil + enough mineral spirits (a couple drops) to attain the wanted viscosity.

I have had a couple stocks develop little brown speckles that had me stumped until I realized they were caused by minute hairs of steel wool broken off in the finish and rusted. No more 0000 steel wool for me. Depending on the application I'll either use the ultrafine grey 3M pads, or more often than not just use 600x paper.

[oldred]

Ok I just had to run out to the shop and give this a try! As I suspected the "dry to the touch in minutes" claim does indeed appear to me to be a case of the silicone slickened surface being mistaken for being dry! It does not at all appear to be "dry in minutes" but rather it's just not tacky due to the silicone contaminated surface, after all that's what Armor-All does best! As I said in my first reply my first thought was maybe there is a reaction with the Tru-oil that's making it dry but that idea was quickly discarded as I thought about it for a few minutes, Armor-All is not likely to react with much of anything let alone oils and the mild solvents in Tru-Oil. The next thought was that it probably is just doing what it's made to do and that's being slick! Sure that surface may feel dry vs the tacky feel it should have but that's apparently just the silicone lubed surface making it feel that way, I am going to let this dry a couple of days and then apply another coat to see what happens but I strongly suspect there will be adhesion issues unless enough of the remaining silicone gets removed during the scuffing process. At this point I can see no advantage to doing this but I can see several possible serious disadvantages to it!

[nhmikel]

Great info...keep it comong

[bangerjim]

Most "rubbing/penetrating" oils dry due to exposure to oxygen. So does shellac. Nitrocellulose lacquers evaporates to dry. There is no quick magical chemical reaction I know of involving O2 drying oils and silicone.

Anyone out there.....please educate us all if you can document any know reactions.

That "dry to the touch" claim is a misnomer. You are only putting a thin layer of ArmorAll's silicone over the drying oil and will just potentially slow down the REAL drying reaction. And it contaminate the surface with silicone to prevent any further finishes from being applied effectively.

Again.......isolate the ArmorAll to your tires and car seats and vinyl trim. That is what I do.

banger-j

[Themoose]

Guys, I don't want to get into any kind of debate or contest... I used to frequent rimfire central and saw the article on stock finishing there... I read the posts and saw the pictures... I tried it for myself, finishing three different stocks... all worked well for me... I still have two of the stocks that were done about five years ago and still look good and hold up to normal hunting exposure... I tried to attach the link for those of you are interested:

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=331108&highlight=armorall

TheMoose

[Jim_P]

After looking over that link and reading the recommendations, I'll stick with my method...

The links suggestion to use Furniture Polish - Wow! Furniture Polish contains wetting agents, abrasives and a bit of wax. I'll keep the Pledge away from my stock thanks.

And BangerJim, Tack Rags - real ones are a prominent thing in my shop too. I keep them in a ziplock. I've used them until they aren't sticky anymore due to the amount of dust they've sucked up. Last step before I start rubbing in the next coat.

[sbowers]

OK men here is a complete show and tell about how to use the Tru-oil and ArmorAll I have used it and it does indeed work and work very well and the finish does not flake with use.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=331108&highlight=armor+all%2Ftru+oil+stock+finish
Steve

[rking22]

I have also used it. I did a ruger delux sporter stock about 5 years ago with the armorall. It did dry quicker and the AA seemed to make a difference. I have hunted with it every year since and it is holding up just like it would without the AA. The AA does not act the same here as it does with paint or glass for that matter. It does seem to have a slightly different appearance than straight Truoil, less "shiney" more "silky". I like the look, cannot say that it is all that much faster, I still do 1 coat a day. Don't know how or why, but it does work. Just tried it out of curiosity and found that I like the final "look" better than straight up TruOil. Try it on a walnut scrap and see what you think..

[oldred]

It did dry quicker and the AA seemed to make a difference.


Ok after working with my test piece this morning, after a full 24 hrs, I can say for sure it does NOT "dry" quicker! It simply feels dry because it's not tacky due to the silicone contaminated surface, both pieces are dry this morning but while the Armor-All treated piece felt dry to the touch after a short time and also a few hours later it was just as soft to a fingernail scrape as the untreated part when checked at different times but both appear to be dry this morning. At this point it very much appears that this works IN SPITE of the Armor-All instead of because of it, "works" as in being the same as applying successive coats too soon while the previous coat is still tacky. I have done that and that too "works" ok to get the job done in a hurry but the result is a die-back of the gloss days or even weeks later leaving just what you described as "less shinny" more "Silky". I probably will spend a little more time on these but from what those who have done it are saying I think adhesion probably won't be a problem after all since no one seems to be having such problems, I will assume this is due to both scuffing off most of the silicone and the fact that Tru-Oil contains solvents and is oil based which makes it more compatible with the Armor-All. I tried mixing some Armor-All and Tru-Oil and surprisingly it does seem to mix somewhat but letting it sit for a day or so to see what separates out will tell the tale!

It's only been a 24 hr test so far (anyone else want to try this so we can compare results?) but so far it strongly seems to me that doing this accomplishes nothing at all that can not be done by simply applying coats early while the coat is still tacky, in either case the result will be the same in a few weeks!


[EDIT:] Just got back from the shop and thought of something since I posted this, later today I will add a coat to both a scuffed and an untouched area of the Amor-All piece to see what happens with adhesion.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've refinished a couple of military stocks years ago. I used tung oil. Since it appears many hear have lots of experience with stocks, I have a question.
Is TruOil much better than Tung oil...or basically the same?

[firebrick43]

Mr glencoe. The answer is yes, no, and somewhere in between. Military stock do not look right with truoil. Then there is the fact that tung oil is not typically 100 percent tung oil. Some doesn't even contain tung oil anymore. You have to look closely to see what your getting.

Some high end stock makers like (5000$ plus stocks) like dalys ship and shore sealer for base layers(alkanet root powder added for color) and dalys benmatte finish for top layers. Both are a poly modified tung oil(real tung oil). I have to admit I like the look slightly more but it's difficult to find around here. I use alkanet root in linspeed with truoil over top and most people couldn't tell the difference unless rifles finished both ways were side by side.

Tru oil is a poly modified linseed oil.

[Jim_P]

Woodcraft does sell 100% Tung Oil. Maybe some day I'll give it a try and see what I need to do to modify my technique to use it.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/153795/WoodRiver-Pure-Tung-Oil-Quart.aspx

I once read many years ago the Tru-Oil is BLO with a touch of solvent (Turpentine??) and polymers / driers (Japan Drier???). Would be easy to mix up and try.

[nagantguy]

Interesting post, lots of good first hand info. I don't think I'll change how I do stocks, like how they turn out and they last. I'm a painter by trade and armour all on a job site where we are doing wood work would get someone fired, but I am always open to new ideas , tricks. Also I like that this has remained a very civil post. Truoil and linseed are my go to products but I also have used shalacs and spar varnish just depends on what look I want.

[leftiye]

I use tung oil to fill the grain. It takes much fewer coats than when using linseed oil. I finish up with linseed oil (BLO), and then use stock rubbing compound and then more oil and lastly wax.

[gnoahhh]

Please be sure you aren't mistaking the "tung oil finish" that's found in every big box store in the country with pure tung oil. The stuff commonly available is nothing more nor less than a thinned wiping varnish. Read the labels. I have never seen pure tung oil sold in any big box or hardware store. As far as the difference between pure tung oil and linseed oil, there isn't any in the finished product. The pure tung oil will dry quicker than the linseed oil is all, unless you compare it to boiled linseed oil and then it's a toss up. Varnish manufacturers regularly interchange linseed oil and tung oil in their formulas depending on what they get for the best price.

If you're using tung oil to fill the grain, I will bet you're using a "tung oil finish" because it is a wiping varnish. You will get quicker (and better) results by using varnish (or better yet epoxy), and then switching to the oil.

All of that is a moot point when one looks at the poor qualities oil has when it comes to preventing water fenestration in a wooden gun stock. It can't be all bad, you say, if governments the world over used oil to finish military stocks for centuries. Well, the reason they did was it is the cheapest finish available, not the best.

[oldred]

I can tell you about a finish that won't work! Since I do auto/truck painting also I have clear coat automotive urethane paint on hand, some of which is dry enough to rub out in as little as hour or even less. This stuff does not "dry" as such but rather it is a two part mix that chemically hardens after it's mixed. To experiment with it I did an old Winchester 22 that appeared to be Walnut, I say appeared because I honestly could not tell for sure but this was a "two dollar" gun anyway so it didn't matter much. It was very glossy, went on from start to finish in just a little over and hour and it looked great! Within a week patches became dull and then areas of it started coming off. Well so much for the quick dry stuff I thought I would try my high dollar Dupont clear coat on a walnut (for sure this time) forearm, it ended up so slick a fly would have busted his rump trying to land on it but even this super expensive stuff did exactly the same thing as the other clear coat, of course this coating is designed to chemically adhere to a paint substrate and not wood so there really was no reason to expect it to work. Still as the old saying goes "nothing ventured nothing gained" and I just thought I would mention this in case anyone else might be wondering about it.

[rking22]

Thanks for the info on clearcoat. Could save someone some agravation. In the past I researched the finish Browning used on the M52 sporter reissue in the 90s. If I remember correctly it was an automotive finish and also used by a giatar (sp) company. Am I confused or ....???? I have one that needs a DEEP scratch repaired and was looking for compatiability of different repair options. Haven't goten rountoit again :)

[cuzinbruce]

If you are worried about rust blems from steel wool, try bronze wool. I get it from Tru-Value I think. Does about the same as steel wool but can't rust. Comes in different grades, just as steel wool. Also good for cleaning gun barrels, wrap it around a bore brush. And getting rid of little rust freckles on the outside without destroying the bluing.

[firebrick43]

Brownells also sells a synthetic wool that works well to.

[leftiye]

Please be sure you aren't mistaking the "tung oil finish" that's found in every big box store in the country with pure tung oil. The stuff commonly available is nothing more nor less than a thinned wiping varnish. Read the labels. I have never seen pure tung oil sold in any big box or hardware store. As far as the difference between pure tung oil and linseed oil, there isn't any in the finished product. The pure tung oil will dry quicker than the linseed oil is all, unless you compare it to boiled linseed oil and then it's a toss up. Varnish manufacturers regularly interchange linseed oil and tung oil in their formulas depending on what they get for the best price.

If you're using tung oil to fill the grain, I will bet you're using a "tung oil finish" because it is a wiping varnish. You will get quicker (and better) results by using varnish (or better yet epoxy), and then switching to the oil.

All of that is a moot point when one looks at the poor qualities oil has when it comes to preventing water fenestration in a wooden gun stock. It can't be all bad, you say, if governments the world over used oil to finish military stocks for centuries. Well, the reason they did was it is the cheapest finish available, not the best.

You bet wrong. Pure tung oil. And there's a lot of difference. For one, tung oil hardens the wood. It dries much harder, much faster than BLO. If you want real weather proof, get a fiberglass stock.

[bangerjim]

Two drying oils I use for "rubbed antique oil finishies" are PURE (!) tung oil and walnut oil. They take forever to dry compaired to my normal sprayed lacquers, but are semi-water proof.

[PeteA]

I didn't realize how old this thread was when I decided to revive it! Oh well....

A buddy who knows a thing or two recommended this to me and I found this thread in my reading.

I mixed some Armor All with Boiled Linseed oil, about 2 parts AA to 3 parts oil. It formed a weird butter-like substance that I rubbed into my revolver grips. The heat of my hands melted it, and a few minutes of brisk rubbing caused it to shine up. I worked on two sets of grips and just went around in a circle for half a dozen coats in a couple of hours. Every few coats I used 400 grit sandpaper with the stuff. It clearly seems that the combination makes a new substance that behaves differently from either of the ingredients.

I have put the grips in a warm spot to cure and will report back after some drying time.

Pete
275167275168

[gwpercle]

If you don't want to wait forever for a stock finish to dry or you live in hot humid Louisiana where drying anything is a problem .... take a look at Minwax Tung Oil Finish ... It's not just plain tung oil ...it's a tung oils based finish that has driers and hardeners added to it so a good hard film can be built up and will dry and be hard .
True Oil finish is similar but has a linseed oil base with driers and hardeners added ... the minwax tung oil finish works great and provides a beautiful finish ... much easier and better than pure tung oil or pure linseed oil .
Gary

[indian joe]

Wow, this is interesting indeed and on the surface sounds like a serious contradiction, normally Amor-all and any kind of finish would seem to be about as compatible as screen doors and submarines! In my paint shop I will not even allow Armor-all or any other silicone based product to even come inside the building never mind actually applying it to any surface that I would want anything to stick to! Not sure how this works and to be honest it just doesn't sound like a good idea at all but apparently for some reason it does appear to work and if it doesn't adversely affect adhesion it just might be the solution to an age old problem with Tru-oil, I always liked the stuff but absolutely hated the dry time to the point that I didn't even bother with it.



[EDIT:] After taking a few minutes to think about this and after reading Jim's reply that was posted while I was typing I think maybe I might have some serious questions about this, the problem would seem to be the obvious incompatibility of these two products but of course I am only speculating. When reading the OP I was thinking maybe a chemical reaction causing the Tru-oil to harden but I just can't see that happening, try as I might all I can see happening here is a situation with adhesion issues. Could it be that the Tru-oil is not drying at all but rather just taking on a silicone slick surface and the lack of tackiness due to the silicone is being mistaken for drying? Again I am just speculating but knowing from experience what even microscopic droplets of Armor-all can do to wet paint I just can't for the life of me see how adhesion issues would not be a problem?

My wife "helped me" one time I was going away on a road trip - she cleaned the dash of my car with armour all - from a spray bottle - I spent the next TWO YEARS trying to remove the armour all smears from the inside of my windscreen where she oversprayed - metho - every kind of detergent i could find - you name it I tried it and could not shift that stuff from the glass - not locked up in the basement but banned for ever from cleaning inside my car.