Ike Skelton National Defense Authorization Act - Section 346

[OnceFired]

Hi all

Looking to the CastBoolits community again for some insight.

I've been selling surplus sourced spent brass promoted on this site for a while now, as do several others. I ran into a situation recently that really rubbed me the wrong way, and I went looking for answers online. Before I post details in a public forum about this, I want to make sure what I have found is correct by having you guys confirm or deny it.

The whole issue surrounds the Ike Skelton National Defense Authorization Act. Specifically I am looking at Section 346 language.

Of course, this is not the first time this problem has come up. It has definitely reared its head in the past. See http://www.tester.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1859

I am getting my information on what the current law is from here: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ383/html/PLAW-111publ383.htm

Can I get this group to help me confirm that language is the current & correct language for the applicable section of governing law?

Thanks,
OnceFired

[Washington1331]

OnceFired,

I can tell you at least from the Coast Guard side, that the QRP has morphed for disposal/recycling of spent casings. It used to be back in the early 2000's that a unit could collect their used brass under a QPR program and sell it with the proceeds going to the unit morale fund.

In the last couple of years all that has changed. I believe that it happened for us in 2011 or 2012... Now all of our expended brass from range sessions is shipped off to DRMO for auction and we are no longer allowed to sell brass to businesses or individuals for morale funds.

Not sure if that helped, but we're not allowed to destroy it... we just have to DRMO it.

[OnceFired]

@Washington1331

What you outlined is exactly what the law says is supposed to happen. Essentially, gov surplus spent brass meaning all small arms calibers should be going directly to auction as-is. How the funds are appropriated remains murky to me, but what is clear is the planned retirement of the brass itself.

What is NOT supposed to be happening is for the brass to...

1) get shredded / burnt / heated / otherwise recycled
2) be provided directly to private business (i.e. no sweetheart deals)

The issue is of course that #1 and #2 ARE happening. What I want to check on is my understanding of the law governing it.

OF

[Washington1331]

If I remember correctly, DRMO is a subset of GSA... So, I am not surprised that it is all fouled up.

I think one of the ways that GSA is excluding the small business guys is by packaging the spent casings in such large amounts that only the large corps can purchase. Most reloaders/small business orders don't have the funds/cash/or space to purchase 10,000 pound lots at auction.

I don't have much data for destruction of spent casings. Only that it breaks my heart to see one fired 50 BMG cases get the deep six overboard when conducting gun shoots as sea.

[Love Life]

There have been a good bit of smaller auctions on brass. It almost smells like GSA realized they could get more cheddar if more people were able to bid.

Brass has been destroyed by being run through a "Popper" which heats the brass and is supposed to detonate any live rds or primers.

[OnceFired]

Yep, we know the destruction is happening yet again across the country.

The way I read the law, it is completely and undeniably illegal. Yes, there are also issues surrounding the sizes of the auction lots, etc. But I am more concerned with the raw availability / proper demilitarization in the first place.

To illuminate this situation a bit more, I contacted Senator Ted Cruz's office about the issue. I got a very friendly reply from one aide who handled the whole thing. Very helpful gentleman, and he was eager to help me move this forward. But, he also said basically it boiled down to "we can't fix this legislatively" and "the DOD is within its legal purview" because of one word that was quoted numerous times by him, passed on as a direct quote from the D.O.D. to the Senator's office as part of this inquiry. That word was "reasonable"

That word does not appear to exist in any of the language I have read in the sections that apply. And it definitely does not appear in synonym form, either. So I promise I'm not being pedantic here, I'm applying common sense and reading what is & isn't there in the language. :)

He advised I should file a Freedom of Information Act request. Regardless of a US Senator's office saying "we can't fix this" I am undaunted, and will do this the old fashioned way - myself, with no tangible help from the government.

That said, as I am preparing the FOIA request, I want to make sure I have all my facts 100% correct and I haven't missed anything. And the biggest fact I need to get exactly right is the current legal language, so I am asking for help in that regard.

OF

[waksupi]

Check your dates. This was back in 2010. Baucus and Tester did get a reversal on this, I'm pretty sure. About the only thing they ever accomplished that was worthwhile.

[OnceFired]

Yes, that was back in 2010. They did get the D.O.D. to pull back on the standard operating procedure of shredding & recycling the brass.

My point is it is happening repeatedly.

[OnceFired]

Oh boy, this isn't a good combination with what I'm trying to do with the FOIA I mentioned above.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/16/white-house-foia-regulations-deleted/24844253/

[MaryB]

Rumor mill was passing around that Obama ordered spent brass destroyed again instead of sold... don't remember where I saw it but it was current news and not old.

[w5pv]

I remember when that was going down there were comments on the forum about this it.It seems that some of the smaller dealers was pushed out and "o" ordered it to be shredded and sold as scrape.

[GabbyM]

Oh boy, this isn't a good combination with what I'm trying to do with the FOIA I mentioned above.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/16/white-house-foia-regulations-deleted/24844253/

White House office to delete its FOIA regulations

That's typical of "the most transparent administration in history."

[smokeywolf]

White House office to delete its FOIA regulations

That's typical of "the most transparent administration in history."

Wonder if this has anything to do with covering Hitlery's keester with regard to the "personal" emails that she deleted on her email server. The timing is sure interesting.

[dilly]

The whole idea behind FOIA is accountability, right?

What kind of accountability is it that the culprits can just... delete?

OnceFired, you're doing a good thing. Keep at them. The ways they can dream up to oppose us are innumerable and insufferable.

[Love Life]

Brass was being "poppered" in Washington state in 2013. I passed the information on to a member who posted on the main forum.

[OnceFired]

@Love Life - brass is still being poppered.
There's now more brass that is being mishandled, as well. I am sad to say some of it is in Texas.

@everyone
Can I get some eyeballs on the Ike Skelton National Defense Authorization Act, Section 346? I want to ensure my read is from the right source, up to date, etc.

OF

[MaryB]

Newest version I can find http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDAQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dispositionservices.dla.mil%2 Fturn-in%2Fscrap%2FDocuments%2Fguidance%2520for%2520comm ercial%2520sale%2520-%2520ESA.pdf&ei=6X0KVaC0HoyWgwSFq4GACQ&usg=AFQjCNEOAbY5Ud5Tl9g_hRfeyhKtnpmhcw&sig2=LI_uwPo_bg8xMhvf3Xt09w&bvm=bv.88528373,d.eXY&cad=rja

[OnceFired]

@MaryB

Aha! Now we're getting somewhere! Thanks for this.

There's one quote in there that is relevant. Here it is:

Although the amount of ESACC made available may vary based on the live-fire training and testing required to maintain a trained and ready force, the DOD will continue to make a reasonable portion of the supply of ESACC available intact for such sale. The DOD may periodically review the quantity of intact ESACC made available and consider whether this amount could be increased without an adverse impact on resources. (emphasis mine)

Javier is Senator Cruz's aide in some fashion. He's the man that helped me. He was the person quoting "reasonable quantity" numerous times, passing that quote on from the D.O.D.

Interesting that the designation "reasonable portion" appears here. This memo, or at least the same overall topic must be what Senator Cruz's aid was referring to when he quoted what the DOD had replied to Cruz's office. Of course, I couldn't get a reply in writing, because that would be too easy.

Back to the language at hand. Pulling from the link in the OP above, here is Sec 346:

SEC. 346. <<NOTE: 10 USC 2576 note.>> COMMERCIAL SALE OF SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION IN EXCESS OF MILITARY REQUIREMENTS.

(a) Commercial Sale of Small Arms Ammunition.--Small arms ammunition and ammunition components in excess of military requirements, including fired cartridge cases, which are not otherwise prohibited from commercial sale or certified by the Secretary of Defense as unserviceable or unsafe, may not be demilitarized or destroyed and shall be made available for commercial sale.

[[Page 124 STAT. 4192]]

(b) Deadline for Guidance.--Not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Defense shall issue guidance to ensure compliance with subsection (a). <<NOTE: Notice.>> Not later than 15 days after issuing such guidance, the Secretary shall submit to the congressional defense committees a letter of compliance providing notice of such guidance.

(c) Preference.--No small arms ammunition and ammunition components in excess of military requirements may be made available for commercial sale under this section before such ammunition and ammunition components are offered for transfer or purchase, as authorized by law, to another Federal department or agency or for sale to State and local law enforcement, firefighting, homeland security, and emergency management agencies pursuant to section 2576 of title 10, United States Code, as amended by this Act.

So that's pretty clear. Small arms spent brass must be sold either to another federal agency or to the public, unless it is deemed unserviceable or unsafe. i.e. not suitable for reloading purposes. Let's look at Section 2576 just to be sure...

SEC. 1072. SALE OF SURPLUS MILITARY EQUIPMENT TO STATE AND LOCAL HOMELAND SECURITY AND EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCIES.

(a) State and Local Agencies to Which Sales May Be Made.--Section 2576 of title 10, United States Code, is amended--
(1) in subsection (a)--
(A) by striking ``State and local law enforcement and firefighting agencies'' and inserting ``State and
local law enforcement, firefighting, homeland security, and emergency management agencies''; and
(B) by striking ``in carrying out law enforcement and firefighting activities'' and inserting ``in carrying out law enforcement, firefighting, homeland
security, and emergency management activities''; and
(2) in subsection (b), by striking ``State or local law enforcement or firefighting agency'' both places it appears and inserting ``State or local law enforcement, firefighting,
homeland security, or emergency management agency''.

(b) Types of Equipment That May Be Sold.--Subsection (a) of such section is further amended by striking ``and protective body armor'' and
inserting ``personal protective equipment, and other appropriate equipment''.
(c) Clerical Amendments.--
(1) Section heading.--The heading of such section is amended to read as follows:

``Sec. 2576. Surplus military equipment: sale to State and local law enforcement, firefighting, homeland security, and emergency management agencies''.
(2) Table of sections.--The item relating to section 2576 in the table of sections at the beginning of chapter 153 of such
title is amended to read as follows:

``2576. Surplus military equipment: sale to State and local law enforcement, firefighting, homeland security, and emergency
management agencies.''.Of course, 2576 as a whole is not here. Because that would be too easy.

But, that memo also provides Department of Defense (DoD) Implementing Guidance for Section 346 of the National Defense Authorization Act for FY 2011 Department of Defense (DoD) Implementing Guidance for Section 346 of the National Defense Authorization Act for FY 2011

7. Section 346 will not impair the operation of QRP at military installations or activities within CONUS that rely upon direct sales of ESACC to support their recycling program or Morale, Welfare, and Recreation program. Such installations and activities may continue to crush, shred, deform, or otherwise demilitarize ESACC prior to direct sale. QRPs that currently process intact ESACC through DLA are encouraged to continue to do so.

1) The DOD memo does not have the force of law behind it. Only that memo says the D.O.D. can crush brass for morale programs, not the law governing the DOD. 2) I'm all for MWR programs. Let's make sure ALL brass sales go toward that.
3) Let's not incur extraordinary expenses by requiring the D.O.D. to ship spent brass from Hawaii and Alaska or from other overseas bases back to the mainland.

So, let's recap: it is plain in the language of Sec 346 that ALL small arms brass is to be sold to the public after sale to other military organizations get first crack at it. They're not doing that. It's definitely not to be destroyed, and should only be recycled if recycling is what the public chooses to use the spent brass for on an individual basis.

But guess what?
1) Auctions are appearing in Hawaii and Alaska.
BIG auctions.
Here's one - almost 40,000 lbs in AK just in December 2014.
http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=8683683 Read the fine print - it has been poppered.

Hawaii just held a bunch of auctions, too. Again, interesting the D.O.D. is auctioning from locations precisely where most Americans can't get to it because the cost & logistics of getting a cargo container shipped from overseas is difficult at best.

2) Vast quantities of brass exist on the mainland but are being DESTROYED.
California is poppering their brass repeatedly. Blatantly illegal. Washington bases are doing the same. Patently illegal. I'm ashamed to hear that even Texas is burning & shredding it right here at Fort Hood. This method of operation also incurs costs the D.O.D. said it didn't want to shoulder in the very same memo!

This is ALL illegal.

I have an idea. As taxpayers, let us get together & buy all the brass in the continental USA. No more popping. No more shredding.

Let the D.O.D. put ALL the proceeds right back to our men & women in uniform. This way the D.O.D. gets good price for its spent brass & doesn't have to spend $ recycling it. The military gets things that remind them of home & make their life easier. Civilian ammo availability goes up, civilian prices goes down to sane levels once again.

This is a net win. And it is ALREADY law, but it is not being followed.

OnceFired

[dilly]

Have you considered contacting the Second Amendment Foundation?

[OnceFired]

@dilly

I wasn't aware of that organization until you posted it. I'll check them out.

[OnceFired]

I just reached out to the 2nd Amendment Foundation, and to the NRA-ILA.

[dilly]

Let us know if they respond or do anything. I don't have much advice to contribute but I'm still watching.

[OnceFired]

I have turned over everything I had to the NRA.

Normally, they want things to be quiet so they can go about obtaining more information. That said, I was able to provide excellent info to them and made it plain up front. Here's a quote from them...

"So far your stuff looks VERY interesting."

That was about a week ago. I asked for an update, so we'll see where we're at soon.

OF

[OnceFired]

OK quick update. NRA is acting on this. Can't say what they're doing, but they aren't sitting around doing nothing.

[funnyjim014]

Good to hear. I stumbled on this thread by accident and very surprised and glad to hear the nra is looking into it.

[OnceFired]

OK. Anybody with solid, reliable information regarding the destruction of brass at any military base in the USA - send it to me now.

Documentation is best if you have it. No insubstantiated rumor, no "i read it on the internet" nonsense. I have provided material info to NRA, and they would like anything else we have that are verified FACTS.

OF

[Lonegun1894]

I have seen dumpsters worth of it hauled off as trash, but can't say what was done with it after being hauled off, so that probably doesn't help much.

[OnceFired]

@Lonegun1894
If you have seen it hauled off and known the disposition was supposed to be as trash in person (i.e. a conversation you overheard, picked up by a refuse company truck, mixed with other garbage, etc) please provide details as to where, when, and by whom.