Modern day 1911 Lead shooter out the box?

[Outer Rondacker]

Hi folks, I have loads of hand guns but no 1911s. I have always wanted one but three factors come into play. Price and lets face it there all over the place on price. Two No one will tell if there model can fire RN RF lead bullets without an issue. I dont want to buy a gun and then spend more money at the shop to get it to fire lead bullets well. Three in my area 1911s are not that big so I just cant grab a gun guy and ask for some help.

So my question is what modern say model that can be bought brand new at a lower price can live on a all lead diet? One dealer told me ATI another said SIG but to be honest the answers I get is what ever they have in stock. I really dont want to pay sig prices (900-1200) in my area. Suggestions would be great. First hand would be even better. Thanks in advance.

[dubber123]

Out of the close to 30,000 rounds my Springfield has fired, less than 50 have been jacketed. It seems to eat anything I feed it, Mine is a blued "Loaded" model with the fixed Novak sights. It has had a trigger job, but thats it. It is still tight, and probably more accurate than when I got it. I keep it well lubed and change out the recoil spring on a schedule, and I believe that is the key to a long life with a 1911.

[Outer Rondacker]

Nice this is just the kinda feedback I was looking for. Keep it coming folks and thanks.

[Love Life]

This one is $700: http://grabagun.com/colt-1991a1-gi-45acp-5-blue.html

It'll do the trick and I have seen them for cheaper on Gunbroker.

Not sure what price range you are looking into though.

[Bob Busetti]

My Rock Island 1911 a1has never missed a beat with cast boolits, never missed a beat with jacketed boolits either. Using 185 gr,200 gr & 230 gr cast or jacketed.

[ar-dad]

I bought a used RIA 1911A1 and shoot 225rn and 230+ fn lee out of it now with no problem. am loading for 3 1911s two are comanders RIA and my GI. comanders needed nothing to be done to shoot these boolits. myne had a bad throt and needed work done. all three bought used under 400 each.

[Bohica793]

Another vote for Rock Island 1911. I bought mine new and it has never seen anything but my own home cast lead, both RN and SWC. Totally reliable and acquired for well under $500. I shoot IDPA CDP class with it on a regular basis.

[fecmech]

I bought a Springfield Mil-Spec and it fed Lyman 452460 SWC's and Saeco #130 SWC's just fine and fairly accurate (2"-2.5"@25 yds).

[Outer Rondacker]

Nice thanks guys. And ARDAD I am honored your first post was in my thread. Welcome to CB.

[bob208]

I have a 1916 colt a ww2 Remington rand. a 1927 argentine and a 70 sears colt they all shoot hard cast bullets without problems or modifications. after all they are real steel pistols.

[Char-Gar]

It is quite easy to get any decent stock 1911 to shoot cast bullets. All of the horror stories you read about on this board comes from folks who just don't know how to do it or else keep trying to jack with their pistols with this or that add-on gadget. There is a good money making industry out there making aftermarket parts for 1911s and then trying to convince people they really need them.

On the low end, I have seen some nice Rock Island and Ruger 1911s. I should think either one would make you happy.

Here is my favorite low end 1911. It is a Norinco 1911A1 that cost me a whole $280.00. I added better sights, new springs and a Colt barrel long trigger I had in my parts box. I think all totaled I have a little less than $400.00 in this pistol. It is accurate and reliable handgun with cast or jacketed bullets.

[MtGun44]

New Ruger SR1911 has not had anything other than my standard H&G 68 clone (200 SWC)
load at 850 fps, has worked flawlessly from the start. Same thing with my older Kimber.
Several Dan Wesson 1911s, with tight match chambers and throats, required me to change my
decades old standard LOA from 1.260 to 1.250, but that was a minor hiccup.

I strongly recommend this boolit design for all 1911s. Properly loaded (1.250-1.260 LOA) and
with a good TAPER CRIMP as a separate operation (required) it is 100% reliable in feeding
and accurate. This boolit has been used for many decades in IPSC competition as THE
standard, and IPSC has no tolerance for malfunctions. There are several good, accurate
clones out there - one from MP has been superb for me, as is my original H&G mold. I think NOE
makes a true clone, and the Lee 200 SWC is a kinda-sorta looks-like, but with a significantly
different nose shape, but has been reported to work by a few folks here.

[35remington]

The only issues I've seen mentioned have to do with 1911's that have excessively sharp leades/short throats that do not allow standard seating depths. A slight touch up of the chamber is necessary but is no big deal.

Some of the resultant seating depths for bullets loaded into poorly throated barrels tend to be excessive, and the OAL's of the loaded rounds are somewhat too short to cater to the 1911's feeding preferences. Some amount of full caliber bearing surface should be outside of the case mouth. Not a whole lot, but some.

Proper overall lengths of 230 lead RN's of 2 ogive shape are in the vicinity of 1.265", for the HG clone WC's about 1.250", and for the TC 230's and the various 185 JHP (mentioning jacketed here) about 1.200-1.220." The 1911's preference in feeding is for rounds above 1.200", generally speaking, as the shorter OAL's makes for a later feed ramp strike, a deeper nosedive on feeding, and a steeper climb to the chamber, which makes the rim approach the extractor at a steeper angle.

All make it less likely that the round will make it into the chamber. Too short isn't good.

[Outer Rondacker]

I have been casting the Lee 200g RF for a buddy to use in his colt and it works well. I dont mind picking up a new mold but was hoping on using this one since I have cast a boat load of this bullet already.

I do like the rugers but all the dealers around me say they can't get them in. RIA look cheap enough to grab one and see how it runs. A lot of great info guys.

[DougGuy]

Any 1911 can be made to feed lead, not all will out of the box but the fix is really affordable and fast, simply throat the barrel and crown it, polish the feed ramp and blend in the shoulders up to the barrel hood and you got it.

The biggest complaint is the mfgrs don't put enough throat in the barrel, or the throat they do put in there is .451" or .4505" and a .452" boolit will not fit in the throat. A lot of people simply seat deeper which works, but all that really does is make you have to compensate for it in the load data and it can sometimes make feeding an issue as the 1911 does have an "optimum" COA which will feed the best and you simply need to "adjust" the barrel's throat to accept this COA and this boolit diameter, problem solved.

Overall, modern production 1911 barrels are a LOT more accurate than say WWII production where it was quite common to see .453" bores and true to J. M. Browning's 1908 tests, will feed any and all loaded rounds regardless of condition. Ol' slabsides has gone through a LOT of changes since those days, and having a nice tight match grade barrel and chamber can make them shoot lights out all day long, having a proper throat is a minor adjustment really, and it is nice that metal can be removed to fine tune the throat, rather than it be so big you have to size to .454" to keep the chambered round from rattling like a bb in a trash can.


The only issues I've seen mentioned have to do with 1911's that have excessively sharp leades/short throats that do not allow standard seating depths. A slight touch up of the chamber is necessary but is no big deal.

Some of the resultant seating depths for bullets loaded into poorly throated barrels tend to be excessive, and the OAL's of the loaded rounds are somewhat too short to cater to the 1911's feeding preferences. Some amount of full caliber bearing surface should be outside of the case mouth. Not a whole lot, but some.

Proper overall lengths of 230 lead RN's of 2 ogive shape are in the vicinity of 1.265", for the HG clone WC's about 1.250", and for the TC 230's and the various 185 JHP (mentioning jacketed here) about 1.200-1.220." The 1911's preference in feeding is for rounds above 1.200", generally speaking, as the shorter OAL's makes for a later feed ramp strike, a deeper nosedive on feeding, and a steeper climb to the chamber, which makes the rim approach the extractor at a steeper angle.

All make it less likely that the round will make it into the chamber. Too short isn't good.

Very well said sir..

I now offer a throat, crown & polish package which will put .145" - .150" of smooth throat or freebore before the gentle leade in of the rifling, radius, blend and polish the feed ramp area, and finally crown the barrel with a precision 20° crown, all for $50 and free insured return shipping. VERY affordable price, and it's a nice package that can make the most generic, off the shelf 1911 a real fine shooter with cast boolits..

Right out of the (usps) box! :bigsmyl2:

[matrixcs]

I have multiple 1911s with various barrels from 5 different manufacturers. I have shot about a total of 100 jacketed bullets thru them. The other 10000+ have been lead.
I have used several different shapes which I cast myself 2 rn 1 tc and the clone H&G68 swc all work perfectly now... 35remington is right on the money and seating depth is everything.
If all my barrels had the same leade and throat then 1 depth would be correct for each shape however all the barrels are just slightly different and you will need to find what is short enough but not too short for your gun. Some day I will invest in a throat reamer so all my barrels will be the same.

[DougGuy]

Some day I will invest in a throat reamer so all my barrels will be the same. See my post above! I give frequent flyer discounts too! Some forum members have sent me 3 and 4 barrels at the same time, I have a handful of dummy rounds sent by shooters from here that I use to plunk gauge my barrels when I am done, they will all chamber one load afterwards.

[Char-Gar]

I will freely admit that I am an old goat and am just a little bit cranky and set in my ways. But, that does not mean I am senile or stupid. I will just give a brief snopsis of the important points in my 55 years of shooting well over 1/4 million cast bullet rounds, all sized .452 in about 30 different 1911 handguns from USGI 1911 and 1911A1, plus an assortment of commercial pistols, all in 45 ACP. Please pardon the run-on sentence, but that is what it took.

1. I have always used a taper crimp in a separate operation for all loads.

2. 95% of my loads have been with Bulleye powder and the rest with 231, Unique or AA5. They have all worked for me.

3. Any rattle trap USGI or commercial pistol will feed 230 grain RN cast bullets, properly loaded without and kind of modifications.

4. The bullets I have used have all been from Lyman molds, 452374 or 452460 or the Hensley and Gibbs 68. They all work fine.

5. Hard alloy is not required for good feeding and accuracy.

6. I have used my barrel as a bullet seating gauge and have never looked at or paid attention to arbitrary COAL numbers.

7. I have never throated or used a throated barrel.

8. When somebody tells me I need X added to or done to my gun, I discount that 95% if they are selling X or doing X for money.

Das it, have a good day, take your meds and stay dry and warm.

Oh yes..just for fun, here is a pic of my good 1911. It is a box stock 2005 vintage Colt Goverment Model. Oh well, I did add a long trigger that is adjustable for over travel. It shoots and runs good. I was in a gun shop when the owner needed some cash and I paid $600.00 for the handgun new. Of course that did not include the ivory grips I added two years ago.

[khmer6]

All my 1911s of various calibers ate lead from the very first day! Accurate as hell and some loads I never even tried before until I fired in the 1911

[Outer Rondacker]

Great post Char-Gar thank you.

[Char-Gar]

Great post Char-Gar thank you.

You are most welcome.

[GhostHawk]

I also have a Springfield Armory 1911a1 that has less than 10 rounds of factory jacketed ammo through it.

I did do a little research before I bought my mold. And I did discover that mine likes the bullet set a bit deeper than I expected. (Failed plunk test)
So I adjusted until they passed.

I'm running a fairly light load of 4.5 grains of Red Dot and if I do my part it just runs and puts them all in the center in a coffee cup sized group.

If I was ever to look at buying another 1911, I think I'd look hard at the Rock Island ones as being a good balance of function, appearance, and price.

I have not done anything to my SA 1911 except shoot it, clean it, oil it. It is absolute exact stock, it does not have a full length guide rod. Trigger is fine the way it is, almost a touch light at times.

[Outer Rondacker]

Thank you for your post. I too am starting to look into the RIA and read some write ups.

[PULSARNC]

My first 1911 a Norinco ate anything I put thru it many thousands of rounds .My current pet a Taurus 1911 [let the bashing begin ]in stainless has been just as good .Only problem i ever had was the old 'flying ashtray ' style from Sierra

[Moonie]

We have 3 RIA's in the family, the full size pretty much feed and shoot anything lead we feed them. My compact RIA is a little finicky but after tuning the extractor things have been just fine.

We call my Taurus PT1911 a timex, freaking thing feeds anything and NEVER misses a beat on ANY ammo, even ammo with issues that the others won't feed for good reason.

[gray wolf]

My Springer keeps on ticking and rocking and rolling.134142134143134144

[DougGuy]

That's some good shootin' there gray wolf!

[ole 5 hole group]

Depending upon your finances and what you plan to do with it - I would recommend looking at Les Baer or Rock River 1911's - that's Rock River, not Rock Island.

I have never run across a 1911 that wouldn't handle a cast bullet - I'm sure there are some cast bullets out there that almost nothing can shoot them, but I haven't been in their company.

If accuracy is your main goal - for the buck, you can't beat the Baer - Rock River has just got back in the game and I think for the price - they just might give the Baer's a run for their money.

Now, if you don't ever plan on shooting competitively or just want to settle in on a rest and keep all rounds within a 4" circular target or less at 50 yards - then I kinda think whatever you purchase on the market today will handle your cast loads just fine. Most problems will probably come from the mags, so purchasing a couple Tripps right off the get-go will probably avoid that.

[DuckHunterJon]

Not at the low end of $$, but my two Colt Gold Cups (national match and trophy) shoot nothing but 200 and 230 cast boolits. Not one bullet related malfunction in 10K rounds.

Jon

[dubber123]

I read an article years ago where Ross Seyfried claimed to only clean his 1911's every 10,000 rounds. He applied enough oil to keep the gunk "fluid", and that was it. I tried it as a joke at our local club where I ran the plates shoots. My Springfield went very close to 8,000 rounds of my reloads using WW boolits in mixed junk brass before I had my first failure to feed. The culprit was a buildup of lead at 12 O'clock in the chamber. I scraped it out at the match with a small screwdriver, and it went almost 3,000 more rounds before I needed to actually brush out the chamber. I kept it fairly well floating in Mobil 1 motor oil, but that was it.

[c1skout]

Another vote for the Springfield Armory 45. Mine has put many thousands of cast rounds out the front. I used to buy commercial 230rn and H&G68 copies so when I started casting I bought a Lee 230rn mold, then a Lyman 452460. I also shoot a lot of the Lee 200rf in both 1911's and a Ruger Blackhawk and it has been my most accurate boolit yet for light loads in 45acp past 30 yards! My RIA is in 38 super..... and it likes cast just fine.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I shoot 452374 out of my Colt's Series 70's all the time. Even called Colt's and asked if it was OK, they no problem, no limit. Just clean before driving J words down the tube after lead.

[Bigslug]

Truth be told - it isn't that hard.

I have done recently - and Char-Gar farther back - a whole bunch of shooting/tinkering with the Lyman 452423 in various 1911's. This is an "extreme" case bullet of huge meplat (which you'd think would cause problems) and WC shoulder dictating short COAL (which you'd also think would cause problems), yet it will feed in a WWII GI gun with WWII GI magazines with nothing done to either.

If you have a bullet that lets you use most of the length available in the magazine, taper-crimp the case properly, and use GI-style magazines with tapering feed lips, nothing of decent manufacture should give you any grief. If you do want to play with bigger meplats, a slighlty widened throat (i.e. Springfields) is not a bad thing.

[ole 5 hole group]

I read an article years ago where Ross Seyfried claimed to only clean his 1911's every 10,000 rounds. He applied enough oil to keep the gunk "fluid", and that was it. I tried it as a joke at our local club where I ran the plates shoots. My Springfield went very close to 8,000 rounds of my reloads using WW boolits in mixed junk brass before I had my first failure to feed. The culprit was a buildup of lead at 12 O'clock in the chamber. I scraped it out at the match with a small screwdriver, and it went almost 3,000 more rounds before I needed to actually brush out the chamber. I kept it fairly well floating in Mobil 1 motor oil, but that was it.

One of my 2700 mentors was that way. The guy was a 2600 shooter (back then Master Class, today he would be considered High-Master) and his 1911 was just nasty, filthy nasty. He just applied a little oil to the rails, hood and barrel - that's it. I use to run grease, but I needed to clean every 1K or so, just to keep myself right with the world. Today I use Hornady one shot gun cleaner but I clean more often, as I just can't bring myself to trust a dry lube as much as I trusted grease.

[achristian8]

My para expert carry fires everything I feed it. People talk negatively about para but the people including myself that acc ally have them and shoot them have good things to say. I have went to loading strictly coated lead bullets. The 1911 was built to fire the lead bullets of the time and may be one of the best choices to fire lead.

[BD]

I would venture to say that there are a lot of folks who would agree with Char Gar. 15 years ago I'd have been one of them. I never saw a 1911 produced before 1998 without a throat, and after 2 or 3,000 rounds of ball it's not much of an issue as that sharp edge erodes away. Never thought a thing about it until folks starting bringing them to me with leading complaints in the early years of this century. It's the folks who've bought newly manufactured 1911s in the last 15 years or so and ran only lead from the git go who have the issue with lack of throat.
Never had a problem with cell phone reception before about two years ago either. Same basic reason.

[DougGuy]

Found some interesting dimensions in Winchester's 1973 Component Price List catalog. It lists a 210gr LSWC as a M.R. (for mid range) with a diameter of .456" same as their hollow base 255gr RN for .45 Colt. They also list a 185gr FMC and a 230gr FMC (full metal jacket) sized .451" I thought this was interesting enough to post.

A lot of the older WWII GI barrels will plunk and feed about anything you can get in a .45 ACP brass without crushing it. A lot has changed with the modern pistol manufacturers, I do not know of ANY modern .45 ACP that would chamber these Winchester lead boolits.

http://cartridgecollectors.org/content/catalogs/WINCHESTER-WESTERN/W-W-1973%20-%20Components%20PL.pdf

[captaint]

I have seen more photos lately of 1911 barrels made with absolutely NO throat. We're talking chamber to 90 degree rifling origin. No leade angle whatsoever. That don't work.... In those cases, DougGuy or someone like him needs to do their thing.
Just lack of correct manufacturing, that's all...JMO.

[MtGun44]

When I shot IPSC seriously, I cleaned my Gold Cup every 5000 rds or so, but lubed
it with three drops of Break Free every match. Ran like a watch.

[oscarflytyer]

have/had 3 1911s. And cpl of other guys' 1911s. I think it may have more to do with the bullet style you use. My 2 Rem 1911s and Thompson 1911 all shoot/shot my H&G 68 clone 200 LSWC. And 230 grn RN cast should shoot in anything that will feed 230 FMJs, I would expect. The 185 LSWC style similar to the H&G 68 is supposed to work well also.

[DougGuy]

230 grn RN cast should shoot in anything that will feed 230 FMJs, I would expect.

What people are missing, is that nearly all 230gr FMJ ammo is factory made with jacketed bullets sized .451."
A great majority of 230gr LRN boolits, are sized at .452."

Modern production .45 ACP barrels, are nearly all .451" groove diameter, and VERY FEW of them are throated enough to chamber a .452" boolit of ~any~ style, so any amount of boolit shoulder in front of the case mouth if it's sized to .452" causes issues. This simple fact is why there are so many threads and posts about throating the 1911, posts about feeding issues with the 1911, posts about COA and seating depth, and the whole thing comes down to there simply is NOT enough throat in these barrels!

Hardly any of them have a ring of .452" throat, and by 3rd grade math, a .452" boolit WILL NOT PLUNK in a throat that is .451" or .4515" in diameter! Simple as that!

Now, the second problem, is that the throat that many of them DO have, is very very short. Some aren't any more than .045" from the chamber, so you are really limited in how to load for it or what ammo it will function with. So now you got a throat that will let a .452" boooit go into it but only a tiny bit, and you must adjust your COA until it feeds. OR have the barrel throated until it feeds the ammo you want to shoot in it...

See, even 20, 25yrs ago, we didn't have this problem, because .45 ACP barrels were made differently, they had more throat, they had proper diameter throat and we didn't have the issues we have now with modern barrels.

Sure a .451" 230gr hardball will feed in nearly all of them without issues or modifications, most .451" defense rounds commercially made JHP designs will feed without issues.

Know what? ^^^^ These two ammo types, with .451" bullets, are about ALL that will feed out of the box 100% reliable in many a modern day 1911!

So the whole point of this thread is about a 1911 that will be a good lead or cast boolit shooter right out of the box, 25yrs ago, it might have very well gobbled up lead with no issues from day one. Now? I hardly think so. Yes you can have a 1911 that shoots lead right out of the box, right out of the USPS box that you sent the barrel in and had it throated!

We can't turn back the hands of time, we can't re-educate the gun industry overnight, but we CAN fix what they send out the door so that it fits our needs as cast boolit shooters.

[1911cherry]

Ive got a Citadel 1911 made by Armscor in the Phillipines ,on that cnc machinery Colt left there after WW2. Turns out they make like 10 different brands on the same assembly line. It shoots a lot of 230 gr LRN , now semi wadcutters may be a little harder to get to feed right.
That was a joke fellas.......about the cnc

[scattershot]

I have a Rock, a Ruger, and a Colt, and none of them have given me any trouble with cast boolits. I even shot some 250 grain semi wadcutter loads through the Colt with no problems whatsoever.

[Boogieman]

Colt left CNC machinery after WW2 ??

[crowbuster]

R.I., ruger, springfield defender here. Carry the R.I. a lot. use it, abuse it, shoot it. Just keeps running. Loves the powder coated bullets now a days.

[RoyEllis]

Colt left CNC machinery after WW2 ??
Maybe after Korean war....G-code that most CNC runs on wasn't out til 1958, developed at MIT in the servomechanism lab.

[MtGun44]

I have a number of modern 1911s and ALL will feed the H&G 68 at .452 at 100% reliability.
This old wives tale that only 230 RN will feed in 1911s has no basis in fact for guns sold since
the middle 1980s for most makers. The only guns that had severe problems were the old
GI guns with a narrow little "feed ramp" in the barrel where the sides of the back end of the
chamber were dead square. All modern 1911s have the feed ramp wrapped all the way up
the sides, and will normally feed a longer nosed SWC 200 gr like a H&G 68 VERY reliably.

If there is still some 1911 maker (there are at least 20 makers now!) using the GI barrel
configuration, they they may not feed SWCs well, but I have not seen a new production
barrel that looks like this made since the 80s.

MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of rounds of this ammo went through tens of thousands of 1911s
in the 80s, 90s and on in IPSC with very high reliability.

THE BIGGEST problem with any handloads in 1911s has been INADEQUATE OR NO TAPER CRIMP.
This combined with too long LOA pretty much covers 98% of the feeding issues - due to improperly
made handloads.

[Boogieman]

The H&G style 200gr. boolit was made for the 1911 , At the time it was first produced there were few other 45ACP guns made. Many problems come from picking a boolit style at random & trying to make it work . 1911s work best with an OAL about 1.250" The long nose
hits the barrel hood and helps cam the case rim under the extractor hook while feeding. Lee's 200gr.SWC H&G style feeds 100% in my Colts. The 200gr.TL & RCBS 200gr SWC feed MOST of the time. I don't like most of the time.

[texaswoodworker]

Remington 1911R1

http://www.cdnnsports.com/remington-1911-r1-45acp-5-blue-sa-wd-grips-2-7rd.html#.VR07YOElnVI

$545, but has a $75 rebate making it $470. It's worth $700-$800. They are very good guns. They are accurate, love lead RN (I use LEE TL452-230-2R bullets), and are very well made. Just one thing. Replace the cheap factory mags with quality mags from Wilson Combat or Tripp. I do not know why Remington would do such a great job on the gun, and then cheap out on the mags. They can cause minor feeding issues. Mine had issues, but one I replaced the mags they went away. It's been 100% reliable ever since.

http://www.1911r1.com/~/media/Images/1911r1/products/Rem1911-34552-prod.ashx?w=500

[Outer Rondacker]

Oh me like. Wish a dealer by me would sell one for this much. Local place is asking 799. Think I will order one. Thx

[texaswoodworker]

Oh me like. Wish a dealer by me would sell one for this much. Local place is asking 799. Think I will order one. Thx

No problem. Enjoy your new gun. I hope you love it as much as I do. :D

[white eagle]

I have a Sig Tac-Ops that has never fired a jacketed bullet