Old winchester 1873 Accuracy Problems

[Criiter3030]

Hi Guys. A while back I purchased a Winchester 1873 in 44-40 that was manufactured in 1884. The gun had been "improved" a few times over the years but overall it's pretty much original. 24 inch round barrel with what I would consider a good bore considering that only black powder load were available for the first several years of it's life. The bore still shows some shine with good consistent rifling the length of the bore. I knew the gun wasn't going to impress any hardcore collectors. I like shooting the old lever guns and have visions of poking a hole in a couple of the local whitetails some day with the old girl. After shooting the gun for the first time I'm starting to think that the original owner may have been killed by an Indian with a big rock. Got some 200g RNFP black powder loads from Buffalo Arms Co and laid the gun out on the sandbags. At 25 yards I shot about a 15 inch 5-shot group. Things did not improve from there. Now I'm trying to figure out if it's worth my time to buy dies and try to load up something that'll shoot better. I slugged the barrel and came up with a .4315 bore diameter. Near as I can tell the bullets in the Buffalo arms cartridges were about .4285". Is there any hope for this classic old gun or is she destined to live out the rest of her life in the comfort of the gun rack.

[bikerbeans]

Maybe you have the '73 James Stewart used in the movie about the 1873 win? His didn't seem to accurate when he was pinned down on that rock.:bigsmyl2:

Sorry I can't, I have no experience with 19th century LGs. Hope you are able to make your old rifle a good shooter.

BB

[retread]

Lee has the 429-200-RF that would be the cheapest place to start. Cast them very soft so the will obterate easily and see what kind of improvement it makes. If it helps but still is not totally to your liking then "beagle" the mold to get the diameter you want. Just my $.02.

[Outpost75]

Your large bore will not shoot well with hard cast commercial bullets which are also too small.

You need SOFT bullets which will upset properly or bullets of proper diameter.

It is best to cast your chamber to ensure there is enough neck clearance to safely load a bullet large enough. Some older rifles have chamber necks too tight to chamber a bullet of groove diameter. For these rifles you will get best results with 1/75 tin lead and black powder. The Accurate 43-215C bullet is the best bullet for use with black.

If you plan to shoot smokeless Accurate's 43-200QL is a versatile choice because its shank is small to ensure safe release clearance in tight necked chambers, but the nose is oversized to permit sizing to throat diameter to fit very worn or oversized barrels.

133829133830133831

[enfield]

Well I sure wouldn't base my decision on black powder loads from Buffalo Arms, who knows what they're loaded with. If the bore is anything at all you should get good accuracy at 25 to 50 yards with the right size boolits and original sights.

[w30wcf]

Critter30-30,
Welcome to the forum. I have no doubt that the original b.p. ammunition made at the time the rifle was would work just fine. It was loaded with pure lead bullets that had two lube grooves.

By comparison, I think that the BuffalonArms bullet has 1 lube groove(?) and in addition the alloy is too hard. the plus is that they are loaded with Swiss powder which fouls less than traditional b.p.'s.

I have a vintage '73 with a .435 groove diameter and with pure lead 2 groove bullets like the original loaded over a 40 gr equivalent of b.p. the undersized bullets bump up nicely and the rifle shoots fine.

For smokeless the Bullet that Outpost 75 referenced works very well also.

For the ammunition that you have, if you pulled the bullets and dumped the powder, resized the cases and belled th case mouths, replaced the powder then put a .43" 06" poly disc over the powder and reseated the bullets, the ammo would shoot much better.

w30wcf

[Terryrm1-03]

Stay with it! These guys helped me. My 1888 shoots great now.
I wrote NOE on my target, but it is an Accurate Mold .433 dia.
133946
133947

[w30wcf]

Terry,
I remember your post from last year. It is great to get those vintage Winchester '73's with oversized bores shooting well once again!:drinks:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?248052-1888-Winchester-73-44-40-Group

w30wcf

[rbertalotto]

Paper Patching nearly always shoot well in these old bores. And zero lead issues. And its great fun discovering another way to spend your time in the reloading room!

[Dutchman]

How are lever guns cleaned?

Yeah, from the muzzle. What's the usual problem with this method? Yeah, damage. I'd start by using pin gauges to see if there's any belling at the muzzle.

Dutch

[MT Chambers]

Soft lead, larger then bore dia., and country music!

[TXGunNut]

Good thread, shooting buddy has two 1873's in 38-40, both built in 1880's. One shoots pretty decent, the other one may need some pure lead boolits. Can't keep it on paper even @ 50 yds.

[Clark]

134093

I got this 1873 made in 1886 11 days ago. I slugged it at 0.433" grooves.
Could someone give me a step by step process to get good groups?
I don't cast bullets, but sometimes I buy moulds and give them to my brother 900 miles away.
I prefer to buy cast bullets.

[TXGunNut]

134093

I got this 1873 made in 1886 11 days ago. I slugged it at 0.433" grooves.
Could someone give me a step by step process to get good groups?
I don't cast bullets, but sometimes I buy moulds and give them to my brother 900 miles away.
I prefer to buy cast bullets.


I think MT Chambers, w30wcf et al nailed it in the above posts. You've slugged it; how's the bore & crown?

[Clark]

The bore and crown are ok.

[Criiter3030]

Great information guys. You've renewed my hope in getting the old girl shooting. Sounds like Clark and I are in about the same boat. I could buy a mold and get my brother to cast a batch of bullets for me. This is a long range proposition and would take a month to pull off. Is there a source of cast bullets out there where we could find what we need? I suppose asking for a sampler pack of 44-40 bullets would be asking for too much. I've burned up all the ammo I bought from Buffalo arms so now at least I have some brass. I do reload and will be buying 44-40 dies soon. Any other opinions on the Lee die that retread mentioned. It's in my price range if I decide to go that route. Thanks

[w30wcf]

Criiter3030, Clark,
If the chamber in your rifles would accept a cartridge in which the bullet is at least groove diameter, or better yet, .001" - .002" larger, then a mold could be ordered from www.accuratemolds.com (http://www.accuratemolds.com) that would get those vintage Winchesters shooting accurately once again.

If you have a way of measuring the outside diameter of the neck of a case fired in your rifle, let us know and we may be able to tell what the largest bullet diameter your chamber would accept. Also would need to know the case brand.

If the chamber would not accept the proper diameter bullet, then the Accurate Molds 43-200Q or 43-200QL as referenced by Outpost 75 would be the way to go.

Another option would be this hollow base bullet offered by Buffalo Arms.
A bit expensive though.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=157241&CAT=4135

w30wcf

[Criiter3030]

Measured several of necks of fired rounds and most came out at .444. A couple showed .4445. The cases being measured were from loaded ammo I bought from Buffalo Arms Co. The headstamp shows 2 stars connected by a curved line but it doesn't show any other indication of brand. Thanks

[Terryrm1-03]

And thanks to you for getting me there! Everyone that comes over to the house wants to shoot that OLD 44-40 WINCHESTER!
And everything I learned I finally got my 1923??? Win 32-40 clocking em in on a 4"gong at 100yds. Totally different report out the muzzle. 185gr GC. Boy she wollups the mud when she hits!
Thanks again!
Terry

Terry,
I remember your post from last year. It is great to get those vintage Winchester '73's with oversized bores shooting well once again!:drinks:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?248052-1888-Winchester-73-44-40-Group

w30wcf

[Terryrm1-03]

Forget the Lee Mold. Not that there's any problem with them, but, I did the same thing. Measure the throat, I took all the bolt out ect. Then have an accurate made. Your problems will be solved.
Plus you'll get to learn how that OLD WINCHESTER is made! It's really a NEAT design! Sorry I'm out of cast boolits right now, if I get some made up I will contact you to see if you want some.QUOTE=Criiter3030;3181607]Great information guys. You've renewed my hope in getting the old girl shooting. Sounds like Clark and I are in about the same boat. I could buy a mold and get my brother to cast a batch of bullets for me. This is a long range proposition and would take a month to pull off. Is there a source of cast bullets out there where we could find what we need? I suppose asking for a sampler pack of 44-40 bullets would be asking for too much. I've burned up all the ammo I bought from Buffalo arms so now at least I have some brass. I do reload and will be buying 44-40 dies soon. Any other opinions on the Lee die that retread mentioned. It's in my price range if I decide to go that route. Thanks[/QUOTE]

[northmn]

Bullets back then were generally a lead tin alloy such as 30-1 lead tin or 20-1. A little harder, cast better and will still obturate. Black Powder generally will obturate bullets satisfactorily. One reason BP guns do not work with shorter cases like a 45-70 in a 45 -90. Also if using black make sure you use the correct lube like SPG. Saying this because thats why the older guns worked for granddad and not for us. Many of the chamber to bore problems would go away with BP loads.

DP

[rbertalotto]

A stock / mail order .429 bullet, paper patched with #9 onion paper will now be .436. If it will fit in the chamber I bet it would shoot like a house afire!

If you don't want to PP your only option is a custom mold or find someone casting .433 soft lead bullets.

Are you going to shoot black powder? I don't like shooting these old guns with any type of smokeless. Althoufgh the pressure can mimick that of Black Powder, the pressure spike is much , much greater. Blackpowder is like a "push" where smokeless is like a hard "smack" ........

A few 1873 rifles I reconditioned and shoot on my web site

www.rvbprecision.com

Good Luck! Have fun but be safe.

[w30wcf]

Measured several of necks of fired rounds and most came out at .444. A couple showed .4445. The cases being measured were from loaded ammo I bought from Buffalo Arms Co. The headstamp shows 2 stars connected by a curved line but it doesn't show any other indication of brand. Thanks

Ok. Those are cases made by Starline which is very good brass. They likely sprang back .002" or so which means that your chamber may take at least a .432" bullet and still have .001" clearance. That's assuming that the neck thickness of the Starline brass that I have is the same as yours

If you send me a pm with your address, I'll send some bullet samples along that you can try.

Oh, did you clean your brass?

w30wcf

[Criiter3030]

Ok. So here's my plan for now. I've ordered some of the hollow base Buffalo Arms bullets that w30wcf mentioned (.429", 222g). I figured this would be an easy thing to try before trying some of the more complex solutions. I ordered some Lee 44-40 dies at the same time. I've got 44 mag dies so I can use the expander from that set if needed. I've got a pound of Hodgdon 777 2FFG on hand. The once fired brass is starline brand. I've got CCI 300 and 350 large pistol primers. Does it sound like I've got the ingredients for a reasonable load or do I have some shopping to do. Am I correct that it would be appropriate to fill the case with 777 to the point where it is slightly compressed by the bullet? How about 777 under a hollow base bullet - I've heard that you want no airspace under BP or sub.s. Not to bring up too much at once but I'm thinking that I would use Trail Boss rather than 777 if I can find some. Any other advice you can provide will be appreciated. Thanks.

[Criiter3030]

Hi Guys. I didn't realize that there was a page 2 to this thread when I posted the response above. What a dunce. Anyway, a special thanks to w30wcf for all the help - very much I appreciated. Same to the rest who have provided info - I've definitely got a lot to learn and really appreciate your help. I haven't cleaned the brass yet so any advice in the department would be great. Sounds like good news that the chamber will likely handle a .432 bullet. w30wcf - I'll send a PM.

[TXGunNut]

I've tried 777, will give you a few pounds if you're close and it works for you. Don't be discouraged if it doesn't work for you. It's good stuff made by a good company but I can't make it work. If you can't get real black powder I understand Trailboss is good stuff.

[w30wcf]

Criiter3030,
cleaning brass after firing b.p., and the subs - There are a number of methods but I prefer a 50/50 mix of white vinegar and water. I place the cases in a container and pour the cleaning solution over them. After the fizzing stops (less than a minute) I wait another minute or two then dump the water and brass into a sink. Using warm water, I pick up 2 or three cases at a time and rinse out the inside of the cases then lay them on a towel. After I have a dozen or so cases on the towel I roll them back and forth to dry the outside.

I only shot the hollow based bullet with smokeless in my oversized '73 but I think it would work over 777 since it did with Pyrodex for the fellow that did a review of that bullet in his vintage '73. You could compress the powder up to .10".

To determine the amount of compression, take a fired case where the bullet is a slip fit. In the .44-40 start with about 22 grs. by weight of 777. Dump it in the case slowly (4-5 seconds) holding the pan 3-4" above the funnel so that it settles. Place the bullet down on the powder and measure the o.a.l. Compare that to the o.a.l. of the bullet seated to the crimp groove and measure the difference. Adjust the powder charge so that the difference between the two readings is about .10".

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

I decided to try 777 under the hollow base 220 gr. .429 20/1 bullet offered by Buffalo Arms. It worked rather well. My '73 has a .435" groove average (.4365" in front of the chamber / .4335" at the muzzle). I fired 7 shots at 25 yards. 5 shots grouped into 1.2" , 6 were in 1.8".

I shot did partially keyhole and impacted 4 1/2" from the group. That was likely because of an air pocket somewhere in the bullet. Speaking of that, I had weighed all 50 bullets when I received them and found that the majority varied in weight from 219 to 211 grs. 2 bullets had a small void at the bottom of the hollow base and were the lightest in weight.

I sorted the bullets into groups and started using the heaviest ones when I originally tried them with smokeless. THe bullets I used for this test ranged from 215 to 216 grs. or about in the middle which would indicate that they could have some minor voids trapped inside.
Even so they shot pretty well.

w30wcf

Speaking of that

[Criiter3030]

Thanks w30wcf. My dies are due in tomorrow. I'd be happy if I can duplicate your results. I'll hopefully be able to share some results a couple days from now.

[Criiter3030]

Dies arrived today and I couldn't wait to try some reloads. I pretty much duplicated the load w30wcf used. Bufallo Arms 222g hollow base bullets over 21.9g 777. Loaded 10 rounds. Saved one for reference and headed to the sandbags. The first 3 were used sighting in. The rear sight was visibly far left and the bullets were barely catching the left side of the target at 25 yards. Moved the rear sight the the center of the dovetail and shot the final 6 shots. If you followed this post from the start you know that the old girl was shooting about a 2 foot group at 25 yards with the first ammo I sent through it. I was depressed. With the help of a bunch of folks here (especially w30wcf) I think we've brought her back to life. All 6 shots fell in an honest 2.32 inch group with the last 5 in 1.66. They were even in the bullseye. Function was perfect. I'm thrilled. Thank you all once again. This was a team effort.

[FromTheWoods]

Stars and a line on brass=https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/44-40-Brass/
They might look like these?

[w30wcf]

Criiter3030,
Great news! Very glad to hear that the hollow base bullet from Buffalo Arms shot well from your oversized vintage '73.:grin:

Hodgdon recommends using a 30 gr. measure for the 44-40 / 200 gr.bullet with 777. Setting my powder measure to drop 30 grs. by weight of Goex FFG, it dispensed 23.5 grs by weight of 777. Tapping the case on the side to settle the powder as Hodgdon recommends* = pretty much a capacity load with the standard 200 gr cast bullet in Starline cases.

Since the hollow base bullet is heavier and seats deeper (.43" vs. .30" for the standard 200 gr bullet), your almost 22.0gr powder charge settled allows for just a slight bit of compression.

In checking my notes of 14 years ago or so, 23.5 grs / 777 produced a very close to 1,200 f.p.s. in my '73's oversized, a bit rough, 21" barrel. Bullets were .435" diameter to fit the groove and produced a 2.32" 10 shot group at 50 yards. A 24" barrel would probably add another 50 f.p.s.

* dumping the powder slowly from the powder pan held about 4-5" above the funnel will do the same thing.

w30wcf

[Criiter3030]

Thanks for the info w30wcf. After going back through some old posts I now realize what a 44-40 guru you are. Thanks again for sending me some bullets to try. The results were incredible. I loaded up the .431 and .432 bullets form the Accurate 43-215F. Used 22.0g 777 and CCI 300 primers. At 25 yards, 6 shots using the .431 bullets grouped 1.06 inches with 4 in 0.48 - WOW! The .432's did only a little worse with 5 shots grouping 1.50 and 4 in 1.13. All functioned well but it did seem like the .432's don't slide into the chamber as readily. I also noticed this with the .433 you sent. It will chamber easily once the case rim gets started into the chamber but it occasionally catches before going in. Bottom line is, thanks to you, I've found my load. A gun that was shooting 20 inch groups at 25 yards now shoots 1 inch. Guess it goes to show that you shouldn't be in a hurry to give up on these old guns. Now I need to find a source for these bullets. As I don't currently cast my own, is there any place where a guy can buy the bullets you sent? I noticed that the Accurate mold company doesn't list the 43-215F. They have the 43-215C. Thanks again.

[Outpost75]

The 215C is the .44-40 BP bullet that you want. 135185

135184255F is the similar bullet for the .45 Colt, if I recall.

[w30wcf]

Criiter3030,

Great news! Glad to hear that you rifle shoots well with .431" / .432" bullets.:grin:
It is a wonderful feeling getting vintage rifles shooting well once again! :grin:

As Outpost 75 indicated, the bullet is 43-215C (Thank you Ed).

There is a 45-260F which is the .45 younger brother to the 43-215C and I mix up the letters sometimes.
Must be because I'm getting a bit senile....at least that is what I am going to blame it on....

There is no one that currently offers the 43-215C commercially that I know of.
Matts Bullets offers a bullet made from an NOE mold that is similar but is not quite the same as the 43-215C that preceded it. Bullets from that mold drop at .432" and Matt sizes them to .430". One could order the bullets from him as cast, then size and lube them to the desired diameter.
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=275

I'm sending you a pm.

w30wcf

[Criiter3030]

Thanks John. Had to follow up to let you know the latest results. The Accurate 43-215C bullets have provided the best results to date. Loaded up the bullets you sent and did some shooting today. Fired 3 5-shot groups at 25 yards using the 43-215 bullet and 22.0 g 777 with a CCI 300 primer and starline brass. Groups were 1.55, 1.47 and 0.64 inch. The first 3 shots in the .64" group were in a .25" group. Almost hated to fire the last 2 shots. Incredible.

Shot 1 group with the 215 bullets from Matt's. Used the same recipe as with the other bullet. They show great promise. The 5 shot group went into 1.60 inches with 4 in 0.59. Figured I may have easily been responsible for the one shot out of the group that opened it up. They shot to the same point of aim as the 43-215c bullets. Based on this I have ordered 100 of Matt's Bullets so that I can give them a more extensive test. I spoke to him and he will be able to provide them sized to .431 and lubed. Were the ones you provided sized to .431 or ordered as his normal .430? I am curious as to how well the lube Matt uses will work with the 777. It's pretty hard and probably not intended for BP.

I was also wondering what diameter bullet the 43-215C produces as cast. Figure I could possible buy a mold, shoot them as cast after pan lubing with SPG. This would get me into the bullet buisiness with out purchasing equipment to size and lube. What do you think?

[w30wcf]

Criiter3030,
You are most welcome. Glad to hear of continued success with your vintage '73. :grin:
The bullets from Matt's I sent were sized to .431" from their as cast .432" diameter. Hardness was 15 BHN. He makes them from an NOE .432-200 RF mold. Matt would also sell you as cast bullets that you could pan lube. That way you could also try them at .432".

In my experience, smokeless lube will work fine with 777 and the other subs.

Other bullets that have also worked well for me in my oversized '73 are the Accurate 43-210B & 43-220C when made at the proper diameter.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/44-40Accuratebulletsoriginalnoseprofileupdated.jpg

w30wcf

[bigted]

VERY VERY cool post. I am on the hunt for a 44WCF as we speak. I am tired of all the blowby on my 45 cases. both revolvers and rifles.

thanks again for the thread ... VERY HELPFULL FOR ME AS WELL.

[1historian]

I had a 38-40 ...1889 Marlin...it needed soft bullets and black powder to shoot well.

[Outpost75]

I've enjoyed re-reading this thread. As FYI for anyone interested, Tom at Accurate molds now has in the online catalog 43-230EB which is a slightly heavier version of John's 43-215C bullet with a bevel base. This is the heaviest bullet which will stabilize from the slow one turn in 38" twist barrels. Shown at left.
I have one of these on the way and will report on shooting results after it arrives.

There is also a 43-260C which provides a heavy bullet for those having rifles with a rifling twist of one turn in 24" or faster. Shown at right.

137751137752

[Criiter3030]

Thanks for continuing to add to this thread. The information everyone provided has helped me get the 44-40 shooting again. My latest exploits have mostly revolved around using some 215g FP bullets from Matt's Bullets over 6.5g of Trail Boss. I know, I should stick to BP but I wanted a good clean plinking load to play with at times. Matt sized the bullets to .431". When I do my part, I can get this load to shoot a 1 inch, 5 shot, group at 25 yards. The load shoots very clean and is easy on the old gun. Seem like the biggest challenge to accurate shooting with this gun is the front sight. It's has a very tiny bead that I have a hard time picking up with my old eyes. I've contemplated putting on a different front sight but it would have to be of the same vintage and appropriate for the gun. Anybody, got any thoughts on a front sight change? I'm still planning to work up a good black powder load for deer hunting. The Accurate 43-215c that John introduced me to will be the bullet of choice for my deer load. I'm still not in the casting business so that will have to wait for a bit. The more I shoot this old gun the more I get hooked on it. I've got a 1892 25-20, a 1894 30WCF and the 1873 that got this thread started. They're all shooters (now!) and I use them for most of my hunting. I've already started looking for an 1886 to add to my small collection. Is there anything like AA for Winchester collectors - I can't stop.

[Speedo66]

I had a 38-40 ...1889 Marlin...it needed soft bullets and black powder to shoot well.

My '73 in .38-40 works well with Missouri Bullets cowboy series at .401. They say that particular bullet is 12 on the Brinell scale, I load it over 5.5g of TrailBoss. Consistent hits on bowling pins at 60 yards even with a scary looking barrel. :x