How do I make Lyman #2 a little bit harder but not brittle for Dangerous Game.

[WBG]

I have a good supply of new clean Lyman #2 and Pure Lead. I want a BHN of 19 with no brittleness.

How do you think that this will work?:

1. Mix Lyman #2 and lead to get 92/4/4 or 93/3.5/3.5. This will lower the Sb a bit to minimize the brittleness and give me a BHN of 14-15 (I think?)
2. Then heat treat to get 19-20 BHN.

The question is : How do I heat treat to get just 19-20 BHN. It appears that when you guys are heat treating an alloy of about 14 BHN it always makes the BHN much higher than 19-20. If you help me with this I promise to stop asking annoying questions. Brian

Since I posted this, I noticed that Rotometals has Babbitt Bearing Super Tough Alloy ingots, 84% tin / 8% Cu/ 8% SB.

I have read that I can melt the right amount of this Babbitt alloy into my above alloy and get a really tough boolit. Does anyone know about this? Brian

[Yodogsandman]

Here's some great heat treating info...

http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

[Bigslug]

The resident propellerheads will be along to refine my thought process, I'm sure, but I'm thinking something along these lines:

Get some "magnum shot" (for arsenic) and some tin to go along with your pure lead and #2. You want to end up with something along the lines of 93 lead / 3 tin / 3 antimony / .5 to 1 arsenic. This will basically give you something close to wheel weights + 2% tin. The tin and arsenic will give you toughness and reducing the antimony will take away some of the brittleness. That'll heat treat to something quite useable (exactly what, I'm guessing low to mid 20's for BHN, but like I said, let's wait for the propellerheads)

But I think you're a bit off in that you seem to be assuming that more hardness automatically equals more brittleness - it ain't necessarily so. Fret more about the alloy than the exact BHN. So long as you're sized to fit the bore and lubed properly, obturation becomes much less of an issue when it comes to sealing the barrel.

Also, considering the massive photon torpedo you plan to be launching, I wouldn't be overly concerned about fragmentation with any semi-tough metal. Yes, you'll want to assassinate some wet newsprint - maybe with some 2x2's inserted to simulate bone - to verify before you go chasing anything stompy, scratchy, or bitey, but a .577 NE is not anything like a barely stable, 5.56 NATO round that is going to turn sideways and tumble on impact, imparting lateral stress that will tear the slug apart, nor is it putting a lot of force on a tiny nose that lacks surrounding "meat". You've got a lot of solidity by design before you even get to the alloy, so don't overthink it.

[WBG]

Bigslug. I have read some of my own posts that I made here and I can see that I have been confusing myself. You are right to say "Don't over think it ". Several other guys said something similar.

Also:1. You said "Think more about the alloy that the exact BHN." That is sinking in a bit. It rings true. Thanks.
2. The mass for the big bullet has it's own structural integrity. Alloy aside. Never occured to me, but of course it does.
You are getting through to me, and I appreciate it. Brian

[WBG]

Bigslug, my one true friend, How do I add the magnum shot after I figure out the right amount?
Just pour the lead shot in the alloy or melt it in a different pot before I pour it in ?
Many thanks, Brian

[WBG]

Would one ounce of Magnum lead shot added to one Lb. of Lyman#2 be about right? Brian

[Bigslug]

A lot of shot has a graphite coating that you'll want to be rid of. I smelt it down just like I do range scrap - melt in cast iron over propane, skim crud, flux with sawdust, skim again and ingot - though that may be overkill. Since it was already clean metal to begin with, skimming off the graphite would probably suffice. It WILL float to the top in your casting pot where you can skim it off - not the sexy, lab-coat way to do it, but we all work with what we have.

By our forum alloy calculator anyway, magnum shot is roughly 5% antimony, so adding it to Lyman #2 (which is also 5% antimony) is not going to change that aspect, but it WILL lower your overall tin content.

I think I would start by mixing #2 with pure lead at a 1-1 ratio (giving you 2.5% each antimony and tin) and then toss in a 2-3 pounds of shot to complete a 20 pound pot of alloy. That would get you something like 2% tin, 3% antimony, and .1-.2% arsenic. Basically, a tin-rich wheel weight. Drop them in water and they should settle the hash of anything that walks.

[Bigslug]

If it sets your mind at ease at all. . .

To this point, I've done three fairly serious penetration tests with cast - the .45ACP (water cooled WW @ 830FPS) and .38-40 (20-1 @ 1350FPS) gallon jug tests I linked to in your other thread, and a 200 grain .358" round nose at a mere 560 FPS shot into FBI gelatin that would have kept going past the 18" block had there not been a rubber stop-block in its path. I believe this last one may have been cast out of straight water-quenched shot that probably BHN'd somewhere between basalt and diamond (I was a noob caster and didn't know better).

I've also picked a lot of me and my dad's slugs out of the dirt berms - these being variations of air and water-cooled #2, various lead and tin binaries, #2 softened up with pure, and so on. Sometimes they bend; sometimes they smoosh; but the only total frag-out I've had was a jug test with a way too hard .44 Mag hollow point from my noobie period. Generally, I've been astounded by the penetration and integrity of cast bullets, to the point that I think we really have to categorize jacketed expanders in a completely separate brain file. I think the fear of fragmentation issue originates largely from folks trying to get jacketed speeds out of nominally jacketed small-bore (.30 and below) with really hard (brittle) metals. Keep in mind, straight linotype was a popular target option for a spell - great for mold-fillout, speed, and paper-punching, but for meat, not so much. With the knowledge you're picking up, your ACME anvil will do just fine without getting NASA involved.

P.S. WE WANT .577N.E. PICS!!

[WBG]

Bigslug, Bingo! The light is turning on. I have been so wrapped up in sorting out the compicated stuff people were sending me that I wasn't getting the simple stuff being sent. This sure cheers me up.
Interesting: When it finially dawned on me that this magnum shot protocol was the way to go, I thought; hell, now I will have to buy a bunch of shot. Then I remebered that I used to be deep into shot guns. So I scrounged around my storage and found 4 full bags of magnum shot! I figure that they are about 20 yrs. old. (Hornady Magnum #6 and Superior Canadian Shot Extra Hard. #8) There is a god! Thanks again for bearing with me on this. Brian

[WBG]

Bigslug, Yes this post really does set my mind at ease. (Also fun reading.) First of all, if you shoot 38-40, It's official; You are not all bad.

Most of us have been trained how to think by the industry but many of you bullet caster are independant thinkers. This is invigourating. I have my moments too.

No NASA. Whew. That's a load off!

I will get pictures to you asap. However, I don't actually have the rifle yet. Ed Hubel is working on it as we type. Meanwhile ,I have been researching, buying components and tools and trying to get my ducks in line while I wait for delivery.

Here is the story on the rifle: Ed Hubel is an USA innovator who first developed a big cartridge case for single shot rifles that he called "The 12 ga. From Hell." At first I didn't take his work very seriously. ( But if you google his stuff you might find it interesting.) His most popular version on this theme is the 24 ga. From Hell (FH) and the .585 Hubel Express. (HE) They both are similar to the 577 NE. He has built a few of these rifles on different single shot frames including the Ruger #1. The one he is building for me is on a H&R hand Rifle. ( he does the metal stuff and I do the wood.) It will weigh about 13 lbs. The stock will be much straighter with a higher comb than the original stock which is more like a shotgun stock with lot of drop. The open sights will be raised about 1/2 inch for the straighter stock. The barrel will be 29 inches long so the oal will be the same as a bolt rifle with a 24 inch barrel. With the weight and the straight stock it will actually be easy to shoot with the 650 gr. bullet at 1600fps to 1800fps. ( I think one can run a 700 gr. bullet a 2200+ fps.)

He takes 10 ga. SB2 H&R frame and "stubbs" a barrel to it. ( You probably know all this and I am just preaching to the choir.) As soon as I can, I will send you pictures. Cheers from your pal Brian at the Acme Boolit Company.

[WBG]

Hello again Bigslug, When I "Start by mixing #2 with pure lead at a 1-1 ratio..." How much will the total mix weigh before I "toss in 2-3 pounds of shot to complete a 20 pound potpot of alloy" Do mean "20 pound pot" literally so the mix would weigh 17 - 18 lbs. before adding the shot?

Thanks, Brian

[Bigslug]

Exactly. 17-18 pounds of your 50-50 lead/#2 mix, add 2-3 pounds of shot.

[WBG]

A-1. Brian

[popper]

Break up 6 US zinc pennies & toss in the pot. Adds some hardness without any problems. 0.7% Zn is fine it will mix with the tin. You will have to get the alloy hot to get the zinc to melt in, 800F or so. I cook my alloy for 1/2 hr to make sure it is always homogeneous, stir every once in a while.

[WBG]

Popper, Thanks for the tip. Brian

[jethunter]

Heat treat.

[WBG]

Jet hunter, You are a man who can keep it simple. I like that! Thanks, Brian

[Bigslug]

WBG, here's a couple of slugs I shot today that you may find illuminating:
134609
These are 130 grain LBT's with a .25" meplat shot out of my newly-acquired .32-20 Martini Cadet. Not exactly a .577 Nitro, I know, but what IS relevant is that they were both fired at the same distance, with the same powder charge, into the same target - a row of gallon milk jugs at about 7-10 yards.

Bullet on the left is made from recycled commercial cast bullets that hardness test both water dropped and air cooled as having been wheelweight in their former life. That was water-dropped out of the mold and is running about 23BHN. We pulled that one out of the ninth jug in the stack. The meplat got shoved back about 1/16" on impact, but that and the rifling are about all the deformation that occurred.

The mushroomed one is 20-to-1 lead/tin at 10BHN and was recovered from the third jug (dented the fourth, but bounced back).

Haven't chronographed it yet (no real point as I'm just blowing out new hulls), but it's supersonic with 5 grains of Unique propelling it.

[WBG]

Bigslug, This is completely relevant! Thank you very much. That is exactly what i am looking for: 21+ BHN and tough. So, that's water dropped wheel weights? Good photo too. I was able to Zoom in. The hard bullet is perfect. It lookes the same as a Cutting Edge Bullet Solid that the skinners got from my cape buffalo. Wide flat meplat with minimal expansion/deformation. (Also, when you want expansion that mushroom bullet is picture perfect!) Thanks again for the test results, Brian

[Larry Gibson]

WBG

Don't over think the problem.

Cast 8 - 10 bullets of the #2 alloy and WQ. Wait 72 hours and BHN test. If still to hard then simply add 5% lead to the #2 alloy and WQ the bullets. Wait 72 hours before BHN testing (BHN test 8 - 10 bullets). If that is still to hard add another 5 or 10% (depending on the BHN reduction) to that alloy , cast again and WQ. Wait the 72 hours before BHN testing. You should have your desired 19 - 20 BHN with one of those 4 alloys.

WQing out of the mould must be done correctly before the bullets cool too much in the mould. The alloy should be at 725 - 730 degrees for casting. I set a buck of cold water to my left. I fill the mould giving a generous sprue and then carefully watch the sprue. You will see the sprue harden and change color to a dull mottled gray. As soon as that happens I cut the sprue, turn to the left and tap the handle nut so the bullets fall into the bucket of water. If the bullets are still hot enough you will hear a "ssstttt" as the bullet enter the water. Sounds more complicated than it is. Just remember to cut the sprue not to soon nor too late which is easily gauged by watching the sprue harden. Adjust your casting tempo to that and some very uniformly hardened cast bullets result.

Some get excited about water splashing on the mould fearing a visit from the tinsel fairy. Won't happen if the mould is hot as the water sizzles off just like a drop of water will in a hot skillet. Whatever water may have hit the mould will be long gone before you can turn back, close the mould blocks, close the sprue plate and begin to pour again. For some years now 99.9% of my bullet hardening is done by WQing out of the mould.

Larry Gibson

[WBG]

Hi Larry, Those are good specific/simple instructions for me. I get it. Casting temperautre and sprue appearance and everything. Thanks, Brian

[WBG]

Thanks to everyone who helped me get going. I took almost everyones advice and mixed up a nice alloy of Lyman #2, pure lead, extra hard shot and sulphur. My boolits are coming out pretty good and getting better. Thanks again, Brian