Sticker Shock!

[Lefty Red]

Was doing some culling and trading the past couple of weeks. First time I hit so many guns shops in so few days. Looking for a soft shooting slug gun. Looking for something...........

I seen older Topper 048 H&R's (the real H&R's with the case coloring on the frame and the longer barrel and full length stocks. adult size long guns) going for $175-$225! And damn if I wasn't thinking hard about a nice .410 with a 28" Mod barrel and nice wood.

Was offered $275 for my Topper Deluxe! Didn't part with it. Told them to call me when they had a 28 gauge to go with the 16 gauge 058 I picked up. I use to have a H&R and Stevens in 10,12,20,28, and 410. Then again I use to be married as well.

Ultra Slugs in 12 gauge is all I could find. $350 for the palet wood and $450 for a nice stock. Was told a 20 gauge wold fetch $500! They use to go for $250. I saw 12 gauges for $175 just three years ago.

Still looking for a Tracker and Tracker 2 in 20 gauge. Was told they made them in 16 as well. I think that is true for the smooth bore but doubt they made a 16 gauge with a rifled barrel. But that would be cool! I picked up three boxes of 16 gauge slugs I found, just in case. And made sure they are no where near my 12 slugs! :)

I thought only the handguns were high!

Jerry

[Artful]

Only stuff coming down is AR's and AK's - for now

[Lefty Red]

I think that is because the black rifle market was saturated with the scare a couple of years ago. And now everyone that bough one now found out that its about worthless for any except SD, and then only with proper training. Allot of people are dumping them.
Jerry

[3leggedturtle]

I picked up youth version 28 gauge with the pallet wood stocks. Its a hoot, Put fullsize stock onit cuz it would kick the heck out of me. Figured that was the reason it was shot about 3 times. I only paid $115 for it. The nice part is 28 is more common and easier to find than 410.

[ohland]

And now everyone that bought one now found out that its about worthless for any except SD, and then only with proper training.Jerry

Methinks you jest, my good sir. Coyotes. I'm sure other folks will chime in. Besides, a new upper can provide other abilities. Hogs, for one...

[Lefty Red]

Methinks you jest, my good sir. Coyotes. I'm sure other folks will chime in. Besides, a new upper can provide other abilities. Hogs, for one...

I don't jest! One day you will learn of good weapons like bolt actions. But if you are willing to make throw money away and make a purse out of a sow's ear, good ahead and be happy.

Just because a drunk man is happier than a sober one does not mean he a thoughtful thinker.

Jerry

[BruceB]

Gotta admit that I'm with Lefty Red , except that I find my AR is more-useful than he believes, and easier to use.

When a new upper costs as much as a decent bolt-action COMPLETE rifle..... I'm buying rifles, not PARTS of rifles.

A closet full of various uppers or extra barrels simply holds no attraction for me..... I want RIFLES.

[Hamish]

If I had known I would have sold you my 980 Ultra,,,,,,four inch groups at 150 yards,,,,,you might want to think about investing in the 20,,,,,

[Lefty Red]

I found two USH in 20 gauge at Dunn's and its going to hurt but buying both today! And at a decent price, but Dunn's seem to be able to do that. But Hamish, I thank you!

Also, going to go today and look at a new CVA Scout 20 gauge slug gun! Found I guy near IN that bought several of them when he heard they quit making them. Don't know if anyone is familiar with the Scout, but its a nice single shot built off of their BP break open frame. Just beefed up to handle the pressures of smokeless. I shot a couple in 44 Mag and 45/70. Found the trigger and handling way better than a H&R, and that says something. I might complain and put down H&R's personal and their finish, but even Remington couldn't screw up that simple design.

Jerry

[Lefty Red]

Gotta admit that I'm with Lefty Red , except that I find my AR is more-useful than he believes, and easier to use.

When a new upper costs as much as a decent bolt-action COMPLETE rifle..... I'm buying rifles, not PARTS of rifles.

A closet full of various uppers or extra barrels simply holds no attraction for me..... I want RIFLES.

So true. I went to North Dakota with some co workers in 2008 for a prairie dog shoot. I had $900 in a Savage 22/250 and a Big Ol Nikon scope (they don't make that model any more BTW. :) ) Along with a bench bi pod and stuff. We meet folks with $2500 in they ARs they couldn't hand with use once we got out there. Some would get lucky but it wasn't often. And I remember one guy saying that he was gong to save up for a better upper for next year.....WOW! What kind of rifle could he have gotten for $2500!

The AR is a very easy to use weapon. That is what it was designed for . Lemay wanted something for the US based USAF dog hadlers to be able to use that was more effective than a sidearm. Something that was:
1) Light recoil
2) Light weight
3) High Velocity
4) Able to reach out on the flat ground that surrounded the missle silos
5) Easy to use
6) Held allot of ammo
7) Easy to reload
8) Be able to be used one handed
So the Armalite Rifle was tested and accepted for the USAF and then others jumped on board. We have all seen our co service members that have never shot a weapon before be able to use the AR in basic. It is a very user friendly. And it is very good at what it does, put a large amount of bullets in the general direction of the enemy. And it does it in a very accurate and painless way. It is a very good home defense weapon and one I would want in my car if ever involved in an active shooter situation and I had to make a quick and accurate shot to protect me and mine. Making it anything other that what it is futile. Kind of like a Glock. Just shoot the damn thing and quit trying to make it what it isn't.

Keep it Classy and Be Safe,
Jerry

[M-Tecs]

Well stated sir!!!!!!!

AR's have become "America's rifle" for a reason. For the past 25 years I have been an avid prairie dog shooter. In a slow year I will fire 2,000 rounds at PD's. In a good year it's as high as 6,000. I also build NRA match rifles on the side. I expect 1/2 MOA for 10 shot groups from the AR's I build.

Les Baer http://www.lesbaer.com/223varmint.html "We'll guarantee that our Super Varmint Model will shoot 1/2 MOA groups! Included with each gun is a target with two five-shot groups shot at 100 yards"

It is not uncommon for me to shoot 3/8" MOA 10 shot groups with AR's I build but I only will guarantee 1/2" MOA.

I have 223 bolt guns also but I don't use them for PD's anymore since the AR's are way more effective for killing PD's. My 22-250AI, 6mm Br, 6mm XC and my 6.5 x 284 PD rifles are boltguns.



. Making it anything other that what it is futile. Kind of like a Glock. Just shoot the damn thing and quit trying to make it what it isn't.




Here is a picture of a 1/2 grown fox that ran through the PD town at 325 yards. I didn't lead the first couple of shots enough but I did catch up to him. Next is Dad with one of my AR's. He is 91 years old. The last is Dad with his Tikka 595 in .223 and my Tubb 2000 in 6mm XC.

[Lefty Red]

What is incorrect about what I stated about the development of the AR?
And yes, you can make a lawnmower fly, with enough money throw at it!
So jump to conclusion, I am anti gun. HMMM, just because I don't worship the Holy Black Rifle? Because I stated how it came to be? What is wrong with that? Its the truth. Its a pretty amazing weapon, especially what for what its intended for firing at the enemy and high velocity round at a high rate of speed. It wasn't developed for bench rest, hunting, or fun times. The AR's ability to do those things, when properly set up and usually at a high cost, also speaks for the weapon. I made an example where an AR costed over twice the amount of a good bolt and still couldn't hang with the shooting at hand. Its stupid to try to make a purse out of sow's ear. But people do. Good for them. I work hard for my money. My AR is plain jane and runs fine and looks like hell from training and shooting it weekly. So does my bolt action. Two tools for two different jobs.

So I do not have no desire to use an AR for anything other than self defense and training. That butt hurts you and well, you are an idiot. You should me adult enough to do whatever you want to do and not have to have my blessing. I sure do and don't need your are anyone's approval.

And how does where I live have to do with my morals and upbringing? All IL residents now marked as anti gun? Really? Funny, I kind of remember me walking in rallies and helping out at the ranges on family days. Guess that doesn't count.

Ans answer me this, is Glock bashing getting the same response from you as me stating I don't like the AR outside of self defense rifle and stating its development as a weapon of war? Aren't the Glock bashers now anti gun and giving the liberal media ammo for banning all guns?Jerry

[M-Tecs]

Carl Bernosky, David Tubb and others have both won the Nationals at Camp Perry with AR's. As a gun builder the AR is the easiest of all rifles to get to shoot well. A good barrel like a Krieger, a free float handguard and good trigger and you are done. Making an AR shoot well costs no more than an other rifle and since no bedding is required it may be less.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Well I can say with no sense of shame that I am of the generation of "RIFLEMEN" that used the 03 Springfield in all its variations, the M-1 Garand again in all its variations and finally the M-14/M-1A in its different guises. I have handled the M-16, shot it, used it and wouldn`t own one of them if I had to. If I wish to hunt with a rifle, it will be with about anything else other than an m-16 or a clone of it.Robert

[joesig]

I'm not a fan of the AR or 223 but they fill a niche that nothing else can. "The Erector set for adults."

I haven't decided if I am happy or sad Ruger and Savage make rifles today that cost less than they did 35 years ago. When you factor in inflation it is even more amazing!

[craig61a]

Just because a drunk man is happier than a sober one does not mean he a thoughtful thinker.

Haha! I love that...

[BrianL]

As someone who started out in Highpower with a Garand, then a state M-14 and finally the black gun. I remember times when I went to the local range and was ridiculed as a "Pray and sprayer". I proceeded to kick their benched rifle groups butt from prone with open sights. It has come a long way. Now everyone is an expert and the only guns in the magazines are AR based. Good thing that it is a HUGE bandwagon so there is room for everyone to climb aboard.

[country gent]

Your number 4 reason is off the mark, It wasnt until the 80 grn high bc bullets and fast twist arrived that the ARs and 223 round became a viable performer at 600 yds in the matches, wjile the M14 in 308 with battle ammo was a solid performer at 800-1000 yds. The Ar didnt have extended range. I dont believe the M16 specs were layed out but that Eugene Stoner built the rifle to prototype new ideas then presented it to the army for testing. At the time were many new ideas and technologies being tested in this platform. As far as self defense goes its the M14 for me. To put this into perspective I started competeing with the garand in 308, upgraded to M1A in 308 and was switching over to ARs when MS forced me to give up high power shooting. The AR platforms do perform very well and really arnt second to any other rifle in any way ( other than looks of the plastic and annodizing over walnut and bluing). In the 60s and 70s the army was back where it was at the Spanish american war, More that had never fired a rifle or seen one than had. Made training harder. The NRAs original charter was to promote marksmanship. The AR is light simple and accurate saving training time for new recruits that have no skill set to start with.

[Lefty Red]

I still don't know how a thread on the high price of cheap single shot longgun got so out of hand.

If you want to make any weapon shoot very well, please do your heart's bidding. If you want to make a lever action 30/30 a urban tactical weapon and paint it black and put rails and ammo carries on it and add a light and a laser please do it. But don't come to me and tell it its the awesomest thingy ever! You will get butt hurt real quick.

If a national champion shooter that shoots daily for a professional shooting team wins a match with a Hi Point, I am still not going to sell my other weapons and buy it! I am sure the shooter could out shoot me with a BB gun.

I got personal with Cajun Shooter. I shouldn't have. I should have been a bigger man but I wasn't. To tell me I am anti gun and helping one of the worste gun right congress-women of my time just hit home. Like I said, is the Glock bashers in the same boat as me? If I don't embrace the new SCAR should I just stop shooting? How about my views on semi auto shotguns? Since I don't own a 1911, does that mean I am wanting the 2nd A over turned?

I am glad the AR is popular. I am glad any weapon is. But putting $1000s into one is just crazy to me. If it isn't to you, good for you. I would rather put $2500 into a Dakota Arms rifle and scope. Or maybe a Nice Sharps! Or have Conn Arms fit me a 16/28 gauge SxS combo. Or a Fulton Armory M14 done right! I just think the AR is good as is and used in what I perceived as its intent. My M&P 15 is plain and only has an extra mag holder and a light. That is it. Has thousands of cheap Tula and Wolf ammo down its tube. Its propped up beside the bed ready for action with Hornady TACT ammo. I feel ready for anything and doubt I will need more than 1-3 shoots on target before the threat is non active. I train up close, but I benched it last month at the range. Still get 3-4" groups with flip up sights at 100 yards. Its barrel and chamber is clean. I clean my rifle whenever its shot, just habit. Same goes for my Glock. Now do I take it hunting ? No. Do I try to group it at 1000 yards? Nope. There are way better choices.

And as far as the AR being "America's Rifle"........I do not wish that name for such a soulless piece of machinery. A beautiful Model 70 is much more deserving of that title. Or a 1775 Charlesville (sp?) or a Hawkins. What about the 1911 or S&W 28? Or what about just a 10/22. I would embrace that! That tells me America wants to teach its children to grow up with a fun rifle and be able to go shoot it and that those freedoms will never fade. And that 22lr ammo will be plentiful again. :)

Jerry

[Lucky Joe]

I like my Glock, don't have an AR nothing against them just don't have a use for one. If that changes I'll get one, it's late just wanted to add something to something.

[Lefty Red]

Since you asked. Maybe quotes like this had something to do with it.











A free float handguard is all that is required to turn a very large percentage of AR's into sub MOA guns. A trigger job or trigger upgrade allow the user to shoot it better.

If you are happy with a stock AR great but stating anyone else that upgrades their AR's are stupid cazy bigots is just digging your hole deeper.

Sorry for the butt hurt, hope you get over it.

I never called anyone except for Cajun Shooter a bigot. And if you read my whole post, or even posted my whole post instead of cherry picking it, you should have gotten the jest that I am glad you go what you do. I have a different opinion than you. You are just going to have to get over that. Maybe learn you don't need my acceptance to do or enjoy what you do.

Never called anyone stupid. I just don't think its smart to put money into an AR. If I want to fly, I don't start with a truck and then trick it out to a plane. I would start with something with wings. Can you make an AR shoot itty bitty groups at 1000 meters? Damn right you can! Just ask my buddy, he will talk to you for hours and show you receipts on the $1000s of dollars he has spent on his ARs. I can talk for hours about black powder rifles and old shotguns. We bore each other unless its about 22lr rifles! LOL

And who did I call crazy? We all might be singlely focused on our own pet subjects, but not to the point of insanity. You completely misquoted me and then tried to get justification for your butt hurt. Sad.

Jerry

[M-Tecs]

Not butt hurt in the least. Just don't like misinformation. No need for me to misquote anything. You stated very clearly what you think about upgrading AR's from the original design and the people that upgrade them. Your words stand on their own. Just a boat load of personal bias and misinformation.

[cajun shooter]

Your Postings show that you are not as gun savvy as you think you are.
As far as your name calling, it shows me a hint of your people skills which are not near the center at all. I think that they have a saying about arguing with a fool, they will win and bring you down to their level.
Your use of the word bigot was completely uncalled for and I will refrain from engaging with you on any level. It seems that you may be the one with the as you called it butt hurt.
It amazes me that the person who comes out with the name calling can never see the truth of the matter, it's them who have no people skills so they revert to calling names to make up for the lack of them. Take care David

[drinks]

I do not like the AR 10- AR 15, reasons, in my opinion,too high priced,second,( or possibly first) UGLY, 3rd the unfortunate AR part of the name, seems very few people realize it is Armalite Rifle, and persist in calling it an assault rifle.
I do not have one, did have to qualify with one while working for TDCJ, still did not like it.
To each his own.
Really wish Stoner had chosen another name for his company.

[Lefty Red]

Your Postings show that you are not as gun savvy as you think you are.
As far as your name calling, it shows me a hint of your people skills which are not near the center at all. I think that they have a saying about arguing with a fool, they will win and bring you down to their level.
Your use of the word bigot was completely uncalled for and I will refrain from engaging with you on any level. It seems that you may be the one with the as you called it butt hurt.
It amazes me that the person who comes out with the name calling can never see the truth of the matter, it's them who have no people skills so they revert to calling names to make up for the lack of them. Take care David

Yet you posted?

[Lefty Red]

Anyways, let's get back on track and gripe about single shot prices! :)

I have to say that the CVA Scout V2 is nice! Prices around $300-$350 for stainless is not bad. The 44 mag, 300BO, and 45/70 I messed with all had great triggers. It seemed like the LOP was a bit shorter, but a small Limbsaver fits it perfect and extends the LOP to a tad over 14.5". The 45/70 is coming home with me in a couple of months when he gets another shipment in.

I traded for a couple of the V1 Scout slug guns in 20 gauge. They are ugly as sin, black furniture and matte black finish but everyone that held them and shot them likes them. They have a medium weight barrel, inbetween a Tracker and Ultra Slugger, and don't kick that much with 2.75" slugs. They group cheap Sluggers from Remington decent at 50 yards with a cheap reddot I threw on it to try it out.

20 Ultra Sluggers are out there, just have to look. OTD prices are around $300. I found one with a great trigger. Truefully, if I knew the store had a lightly used Savage 220F in LH I wouldn't have gotten it. Oh well, I just signed up for more overtime. :)

Handi Rifles were scarce. I found a Talo 44 mag, but with a SB1 frame in KY. They wanted $300 used! And it was used! They had two SL Handis in 243 and 22 Hornet as well. $350. I passed. Waiting on the Scout V2 is get here.

No older 048 or 058 Toppers sighted since the last time.

Jerry

[Doc Highwall]

The 03 Springfield, M1 Garand and M-14 all have a National Match spec and the guns that have been upgraded have NM stamped on them, the M16 has no National Match spec as it out shoots the other guns. The bolts locking lugs being all around the small bolt face along with no bedding make it more accurate.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Of course they are partly right, and you should have said it doesn't offer any real advantage for any thing but self-defence. I should think that after the first shot or two, all the other coyotes would run away and hide.

As for talking as if you were hand in glove with the enemies of gun ownership, I think those will find more useful examples in the people in US gun shows and the internet who talk in detail and sometimes enthusiastically about shooting people. There are, of course, situations in life - nowhere near in every lifetime - in which that may become necessary, and different crime statistics don't eliminate the possibility of its happening anywhere. But I don't know any other country where you hear people talking that way.

As a military rifle the M16 was excellent, and excellent for a particular situation. You are right about its role in airfield and missile defence. But it would be hard to better in the role more or less accidentally forced upon it: producing a large infantry army quickly, in an age of short-term conscription, when "no discharge in the war" was politically impossible. It had some of the best sights to be fitted as standard on any medium-range military rifle, and points far more naturally than any other rifle of its era. For me the Kalashnikov points like a shoebox of rocks, and in bad light I would prefer and AR or my nineteenth century Winchesters. But if we were convinced by what sponsored experts of the highest caliber could achieve in conditions quite unlike everyday life, we would all be driving Formula 1 cars.

For a rifle so easy to make very accurate, people seem to spend a most amazing amount of money making it do so. The economic advantages of the AR family in business are clear enough. Most work you can have done on conventional rifles costs at least as much, and depends at least as much for the result, on the individual craftsmanship as on what is installed. A family of weapons for which products can be advertised, the press squared, bought at great cost and fitted is pure nirvana in the world of business.

[Lefty Red]

Once again, I am glad someone likes a platform that I don't. It does get bothersome/tiresome of the AR to cram "facts" at a person that doesn't agree with their view. Especially on a thread that has NOTHING to do with ARs.

As for not having National Match ARs, well it seems that the last M4 issued to me DID NOT have the National Match 20" heavy barrel. Maybe they are the new issue? And a quick Google search showed about 5 NM ARs from Colt and Rock River and others. And that was on the front page.

And yes, the coyote is usually gone after the first shot. Second shots are rare, but that doesn't stop some hunters to empty their rifle no matter what the platform. I strive for a humane one shot one kill for any animal.

Will I edit to state that the AR doesn't offer any advantage except in self defense? Nope. My 12 gauge still comes first for defense. The AR is there for offensive needs. My handgun for when I have to get to either.

And for the bolt action rifle having to have a gunsmith to tune it to the AR equal of out the self items, I would say we will have to agree to disagree. A plain receiver for $250, a Douglas barrel for $400, and a McMillian stock for $450 is $1100. Send to a gunsmith and have him put it together and bed the stock for $400? So we are at $1500, sans optics. There isn't an AR that can hang with it, no matter what upper you use, with a long range cold bore shot! If it could, sniper teams would be using the AR as the platform not a Remington 700. The M4 is used as a support weapon, not a main sniper rifle.

I guess I shouldn't be feeding the fanboys, but I just can't look away from the train wreck. If you think your AR is the Swiss Army knife of weapons, then good for you. If you think you need to drop big $$$$ in your AR and want to use it in as a hunting rifle where you only need one or two shots for game, then make yourself happy. Hope you don't need my permission, cause I think its the stupidest thing ever. When I butcher a deer, I use four different knives. A butcher, skinner, and boning knives could get me through. I would hate to limit myself to a just a paring knife on such a wonderful harvest of meat.

Jerry

[freebullet]

The price of single shots is getting bad with local used ones going for new+ prices since last year. With the current prices I'm not buying.

$2500 is not a lot of money in the gun market. That don't mean you can't get an accurate $100 gun or put together a cheap ar that will shoot. There are too many variables to lump all of one type of gun in the dumpster. I like all weapons but will only own what I want.

[M-Tecs]

There isn't an AR that can hang with it, no matter what upper you use, with a long range cold bore shot! If it could, sniper teams would be using the AR as the platform not a Remington 700. The M4 is used as a support weapon, not a main sniper rifle.

Jerry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_Semi-Automatic_Sniper_System M110 Semi Automatic Sniper System (M110 SASS) is an American semi-automatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-automatic_firearm) sniper rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_rifle) that is chambered for the 7.62×51mm NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9751mm_NATO) round.

The M110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System is intended to replace the M24 Sniper Weapon System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M24_Sniper_Weapon_System) used by snipers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper), spotters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotter_(sniping)), designated marksman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_marksman), or squad advanced marksmen in the United States Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army). However, the U.S. Army still acquired M24s from Remington until February 2010.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_Semi-Automatic_Sniper_System#cite_note-2) After witnessing the effects of USSOCOM snipers and extensive after-action reports from SOF snipers throughout the Iraqi theater of operations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theater_of_operations), the U.S. Army ran a competition involving several designs, including rifles from Knight's Armament Company, Remington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Arms), and DPMS Panther Arms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DPMS_Panther_Arms).[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] On September 28, 2005, the Knight's Armament Co. rifle won the competition and was selected to be the supplier of the M110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System. The XM110 underwent final operational testing in May and June of 2007 at Fort Drum, New York by a mix of Special Forces troops and Sniper trained soldiers from the 10th Mountain Division. In April 2008, U.S. Army soldiers from Task Force Fury in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan) were the first in a combat zone to receive the M110. The troops rated the weapon very highly, noting the quality of the weapon and its semi-automatic capabilities compared to the bolt-action M24. The United States Marine Corps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps) will also be adopting the M110 to replace some M39 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M39_Enhanced_Marksman_Rifle) and all Mk 11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR-25) as a complement to the M40A5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M40_rifle).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_Semi-Automatic_Sniper_System#cite_note-3) It is manufactured by Knight's Armament Company in Titusville, Florida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titusville,_Florida), though the complete system incorporates a Leupold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leupold) 3.5–10× variable power daytime optic, Harris swivel bipod, AN/PVS-26 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=AN/PVS-26&action=edit&redlink=1) or AN/PVS-10 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=AN/PVS-10&action=edit&redlink=1) night sight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_sight) and PALs magazine pouches of yet unpublished origin.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] The rifle has ambidextrous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-dominance) features such as a double-sided magazine release, safety selector switch, and bolt catch.

[Lefty Red]

Thanks M-Tex for proving my point. You can turn a pigs ear into a purse with enough money! And since the government to doing it, we should too!

I guess the M14s that were dusted off, tuned, and scoped wasn't effective. And everyone knows how well the AR-10 works.

Have a good day.
Jerry

[kenyerian]

I feel Lefty Red's pain at the higher price of single shots. I like to fool with contenders and encore's and the days of $100 barrels are long gone as is the nickel candy bar. I've reloaded since the late 60's and the thought of loosing brass gets me upset. My grandson was shooting his 9 millimeter back by my pond and he had brass all over the pond dam. He and his girl friend got a big laugh out of me crawling around looking for the brass. I'll stick with single shots and save my brass.

[M-Tecs]

I guess the M14s that were dusted off, tuned, and scoped wasn't effective.


The DMR & EBR M-14's are very effective but since Clinton/Gore had most of the M14's and their support parts scraped lack of arms and parts is a huge problem.


And everyone knows how well the AR-10 works.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_Semi-Automatic_Sniper_System

The troops rated the weapon very highly, noting the quality of the weapon and its semi-automatic capabilities compared to the bolt-action M24.

[MBTcustom]

May I humbly suggest the righteous defenders of the holy AR note what section of the forum you are posting in?
I personally do not care for the AR platform or the underhanded way Springfield armory was thrown under the buss to make way for a civilian designed rifle that was almost reliable enough to be used in jungle combat. Therefore, my rifle of choice is the M14/M1A.
That doesn't mean I'm going to ram my opinion down the throat of anyone who differs with me.

The problem with the gun community is that we would just as soon throw a punch at the guy to our right or left as we would the real enemy and that has shamefully been demonstrated in this thread.
Calling a fellow gun owner an enemy for stating his preferences? Calling him down for living, fighting and voting in a place where he is outnumbered in every way?
This is disgusting and apologies should be immediately forthcoming from both sides of this discussion.
This is a forum dedicated to the single shot rifle, and that's what the OP started this thread about. Why has it been derailed and dragged through the mud by his brothers in arms?

Now yall shake hands and let's get back to doing what we do best.

[Doc Highwall]

On a M16/AR15 platform (5.56/.223) they have the accuracy with the limiting factor being the bullet weight of the 77 grain Sierra Matchking at a distance for energy, but when the gun is on steroids and becomes the AR10 and the gun can now handle the same bullet as the M40 etc., the difference becomes a mute point.

No matter how accurate the gun can be built and the ammunition made, it still comes down the the loose nut behind the butt plate. Anybody with deep pockets can buy a accurate gun and match grade ammo, but they still have to put in trigger time and lastly learn to read the wind to become a truly good long range shooter.

The triangle is, accurate gun, accurate ammo, and good shooter, any weakness in one of these and the whole system fails.

[Bodine]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, lets try and keep it civil guys, step back take a breath and have a great day!

[akajun]

Thanks M-Tex for proving my point. You can turn a pigs ear into a purse with enough money! And since the government to doing it, we should too!

I guess the M14s that were dusted off, tuned, and scoped wasn't effective. And everyone knows how well the AR-10 works.

Have a good day.
Jerry

Ill chip in,
I think your pricing structure is off on your bolt action calculations. A basic remington 700 or 7 action is $397 at walmart, you can not buy them any cheaper. If you can find remington 700 or even savage target actions for $250, let me know, Ill buy them all day long. You can also go custom action from Pierce, Bat, etc for about $1000
unchambered Barrel, $325 plus $20 shipping from krieger, Bartlien, Pac Nor, Shilen, etc. You can go lower tier from Green Mountian, wilson, or X caliber barrels for about $150 shipped, and have a very good barrel as well.
Stock, Mcmillan, $550 , Manners, $1000, Elissio chassis, $1000. take your pic.
Now the gunsmithing part,
Chambering, $250-$400
Action Blue Printing $200-$400
Bedding $250
Finishing, $150, can be eliminated though with a stainless barrel . So for a built up accurate botl gun capaable to beat the pants off of an AR, you are talking $1800 to $3550 if you have it built, or $1100 to $2750 if you have the capabilities to build it yourself, which from your posts, Im willing to bet you dont.
I can build a National Match AR or Space Gun AR in .223 , and have, for right at about $800 on the low end and $1200 on the high end that will shoot an honest .75 moa or better, all day long, no fliers, for the life of the barrel. I dont have to bed it, and most average people can change out barrels and other parts themselves. On the same token I am building a Prone/xtc bolt gun right now on a remington action, krieger barrel, elissio stock, and cg trigger. Even with me doing the work, I will be over $2000 in parts alone, and this does not even count my tooling such as reamers and reciever blueprint tooling.
Even if you go factory bolt action, a savage or remington varmint is going to cost out at least $800-$1000, which is the same price range as a NM AR from RRA or their Varminter and will shoot about as good as the bolt guns. My first space gun was a RRA Varminter that I slotted the handguard for an anschutz rail and slapped some sights on. I made high master with it within 4 months, and shot several perfect scores with it at 600 yds. Total cost of that gun was less than $1000, excluding sights, cause I bought it on sale.
And by the way, the M70 is not america's rifle, it is a copy of the Springfield 1903, which is a copy of the German Mauser, which we had to pay royalties for until after WW1. Even the Garand was designed by a Canadian. The M16 series of rifles was the first Service Rifle to be designed by an american and built in america, based on an original american design, so it is more "america's rifle" than anything out there.

[Lefty Red]

May I humbly suggest the righteous defenders of the holy AR note what section of the forum you are posting in?
I personally do not care for the AR platform or the underhanded way Springfield armory was thrown under the buss to make way for a civilian designed rifle that was almost reliable enough to be used in jungle combat. Therefore, my rifle of choice is the M14/M1A.
That doesn't mean I'm going to ram my opinion down the throat of anyone who differs with me.

The problem with the gun community is that we would just as soon throw a punch at the guy to our right or left as we would the real enemy and that has shamefully been demonstrated in this thread.
Calling a fellow gun owner an enemy for stating his preferences? Calling him down for living, fighting and voting in a place where he is outnumbered in every way?
This is disgusting and apologies should be immediately forthcoming from both sides of this discussion.
This is a forum dedicated to the single shot rifle, and that's what the OP started this thread about. Why has it been derailed and dragged through the mud by his brothers in arms?

Now yall shake hands and let's get back to doing what we do best.

I take responsibility for my actions and apologize for my part of in this . In hind sight, I wish I could have communicated better in explaining my views to other members on here. And I apologize to M Tecs for calling him an idiot. After rereading my post that was poorly edited under a less that happy mood, I called him an idiot. He is a passionate as me about his views and I should respect that.

Jerry

I have the upmost respect for

[Lefty Red]

I feel Lefty Red's pain at the higher price of single shots. I like to fool with contenders and encore's and the days of $100 barrels are long gone as is the nickel candy bar. I've reloaded since the late 60's and the thought of loosing brass gets me upset. My grandson was shooting his 9 millimeter back by my pond and he had brass all over the pond dam. He and his girl friend got a big laugh out of me crawling around looking for the brass. I'll stick with single shots and save my brass.

LOL, I thought I was the only one that makes a mental note of where my brass lands! LOL makes want to take up shooting revolvers and single shots only! And I bet I have way over 10,000 pieces of 9mm brass sitting in couple of three gallon buckets, but still get POed if I can't find at least 95% of my shot brass at the range!

I had build up my first Contender in the spring of 2013. It was just s 357 mag, and costed me around $600 with the barrel and rubber Pach forearm and grip. I did go a month ago and couldn't find a Contender frame for under $400 or a Encore frame for under $550. And yeah, no more $100 barrels! They were from $300-$450! Even a 45/410 barrels were high! I saw the writing on the wall and decided I could hang with the big boys so I decided to go with a CVA. Glad I did! Hope they keep them stocked. Now the CVA isn't as refined as the T/C. But I do likes its trigger and its a solid pistol. You just have to hold it different. Hope to get some pictures of it on here soon. Brass and bullets are on its way.

Jerry

[Lefty Red]

Ill chip in,
I think your pricing structure is off on your bolt action calculations. A basic remington 700 or 7 action is $397 at walmart, you can not buy them any cheaper. If you can find remington 700 or even savage target actions for $250, let me know, Ill buy them all day long. You can also go custom action from Pierce, Bat, etc for about $1000
unchambered Barrel, $325 plus $20 shipping from krieger, Bartlien, Pac Nor, Shilen, etc. You can go lower tier from Green Mountian, wilson, or X caliber barrels for about $150 shipped, and have a very good barrel as well.
Stock, Mcmillan, $550 , Manners, $1000, Elissio chassis, $1000. take your pic.
Now the gunsmithing part,
Chambering, $250-$400
Action Blue Printing $200-$400
Bedding $250
Finishing, $150, can be eliminated though with a stainless barrel . So for a built up accurate botl gun capaable to beat the pants off of an AR, you are talking $1800 to $3550 if you have it built, or $1100 to $2750 if you have the capabilities to build it yourself, which from your posts, Im willing to bet you dont.
I can build a National Match AR or Space Gun AR in .223 , and have, for right at about $800 on the low end and $1200 on the high end that will shoot an honest .75 moa or better, all day long, no fliers, for the life of the barrel. I dont have to bed it, and most average people can change out barrels and other parts themselves. On the same token I am building a Prone/xtc bolt gun right now on a remington action, krieger barrel, elissio stock, and cg trigger. Even with me doing the work, I will be over $2000 in parts alone, and this does not even count my tooling such as reamers and reciever blueprint tooling.
Even if you go factory bolt action, a savage or remington varmint is going to cost out at least $800-$1000, which is the same price range as a NM AR from RRA or their Varminter and will shoot about as good as the bolt guns. My first space gun was a RRA Varminter that I slotted the handguard for an anschutz rail and slapped some sights on. I made high master with it within 4 months, and shot several perfect scores with it at 600 yds. Total cost of that gun was less than $1000, excluding sights, cause I bought it on sale.
And by the way, the M70 is not america's rifle, it is a copy of the Springfield 1903, which is a copy of the German Mauser, which we had to pay royalties for until after WW1. Even the Garand was designed by a Canadian. The M16 series of rifles was the first Service Rifle to be designed by an american and built in america, based on an original american design, so it is more "america's rifle" than anything out there.

Those prices were quoted to me by a good gunsmith. And I looked and can pick up a good used action for that price on gunbroker or GOA. Same as the barrel mentioned and the stock. I feel my prices are right on.

And I wish to not discuss the AR anymore in my thread. If you would like, you can PM me and we can discuss it, although I doubt you will change my mind or me yours. My friends are as passionate as some on here about their ARs and I still hang around with them. :)

Jerry

[Lefty Red]

The price of single shots is getting bad with local used ones going for new+ prices since last year. With the current prices I'm not buying.

$2500 is not a lot of money in the gun market. That don't mean you can't get an accurate $100 gun or put together a cheap ar that will shoot. There are too many variables to lump all of one type of gun in the dumpster. I like all weapons but will only own what I want.

It really isn't! I saw $2500 produced shotguns on the rack over by Sparta. And if I had $2500 it might have went home with me. But is would be kicking myself. Still saving up for a Sharps Bussiness Rifle! LOL.

I think my friends have around $1200 in each of their AR builds. They are nice rifles! But still not up there with some 3 Gun builds I have seen! And at $1200, that is what allot of the basic ARs were going at in 2012! I know my basic/plain Jane S&W M&P 15 was just over $1000 during the scare. I picked it up for $525 OTD this pass winter due to a sale and it was a rack model that had a few songs on it. It's got quite a few more now. But holds a better than GI group of 2" at 100 with my Hornady TACT ammo. Hoping my 300 BO build this winter will do the same.

Jerry

[45-70 Chevroner]

Lefty Red. I really liked the read. Just a note. I bought a 3 barell set up back in the early 1970's. It was aTopper in 410 ga., 20 ga., and a really good cast boolit shooting 30-30, 21" barrel. That was back in the days if I wanted another rifle, or pistol I had to sell one. Well I sold it and have been kicking my self ever sense.

[Lefty Red]

Lefty Red. I really liked the read. Just a note. I bought a 3 barell set up back in the early 1970's. It was aTopper in 410 ga., 20 ga., and a really good cast boolit shooting 30-30, 21" barrel. That was back in the days if I wanted another rifle, or pistol I had to sell one. Well I sold it and have been kicking my self ever sense.

Was that what they called the "suitcase package"? It came in a nice leather case just a bit larger than a briefcase. I think they were had in 20ga/30-30 barrels. That was a nice combo! I used one for a SEMO deer hunt once. I liked it! Almost as much as my 30-30/20ga Savage O/U!

Yep, we all kick ourselves for those good ones that get away. I personally won't sell an older weapon now. I mourn over too many good handguns and long guns that are now way out of price range now. And most were inexpensive back then.

Thank you,
Jerry

[MBTcustom]

Was that what they called the "suitcase package"? It came in a nice leather case just a bit larger than a briefcase. I think they were had in 20ga/30-30 barrels. That was a nice combo! I used one for a SEMO deer hunt once. I liked it! Almost as much as my 30-30/20ga Savage O/U!

Yep, we all kick ourselves for those good ones that get away. I personally won't sell an older weapon now. I mourn over too many good handguns and long guns that are now way out of price range now. And most were inexpensive back then.

Thank you,
Jerry

For sure. It doesn't cost you a thing sitting in the back of the safe, and the longer you own it, the cheaper you got it. Facts of life.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Was that what they called the "suitcase package"? It came in a nice leather case just a bit larger than a briefcase. I think they were had in 20ga/30-30 barrels. That was a nice combo! I used one for a SEMO deer hunt once. I liked it! Almost as much as my 30-30/20ga Savage O/U!

Yep, we all kick ourselves for those good ones that get away. I personally won't sell an older weapon now. I mourn over too many good handguns and long guns that are now way out of price range now. And most were inexpensive back then.

Thank you,
Jerry
No. This was barrels action stock only.
My butt has been quite sore over the years.