.38 Short colt light load?

[wonderwolf]

I've been toying with the 38/357 combination for awhile now. Last weekend I made 50 pcs of .38 Short Colt to just try out with a couple of guns for testing purposes. All the data I'm seeing for this round is for 130gr or heavier bullets. Anybody have any idea for a plinker load using say a 75gr wadcutter? or an 80gr round ball (.375 drawn down to .357 for more bearing surface). I'm thinking 2.5gr of bullseye however I don't want a detonation on my hands. Red dot is also a option.

Sharpes book says 2.5 for 130gr and it seems 2.5 is used for everything above that up to 160gr so long as its cast.

Part of this is accuracy testing to see just how much accuracy suffers from the long jump, the other part is to have possible pest control ammo that is easily identifiable as well as curiosity.

[bedbugbilly]

I load 38 Colt Short. I am primarily using the Lee 358-105-SWC or a 120ish gr. RN from a Lyman 358-242. When I started looking for loading data . . there is some out there but you have to do a lot of hunting. Another good boolit is from the Lee 356-120 TC. My mold drops hem at .358 and I just seat them so that the rim is at the top of the lube groove and put a mild taper crimp on them.

I use both Bulls Eye and Red Dot. For both those lead boolit weights - 105 and 120 - I use 2 gr. of Bulls Eye and 2.2 gr of Red Dot. I don't have a chronograph but those loadings make good plinking rounds for the revolvers I have. I have shot them out of barrel lengths of 2", 3", 4 3/4", 5", 5 1/2"and 6". They are especially fun out of my 2" and 3" J frames.

I seat to the crimp line of those particular boolits - I use a 9mm taper crimp die to put a mild taper crimp on them - that's all they need.

Look and find some data - and as is common practice - start at a lower level and work up. I'm not sure how well a small WC would work in a 38 Colt Short. There isn't a lot of case volume and remember that the deeper you seat, the less there is and the pressure increases. I'd go with the same seating depth of a standard boolit like the ones above. If the WC is too long and you fully seat it, you'll most likely cause a spike in the pressure due to reduced case volume.

I also ran across the "2.5" grain data as you mention. I'd be looking at that as being the max. so start lower. I'm not suggesting the load I use as I don't like doing that - check your data - but start low and work up. And . . . when you start out at a lower powder charge . . . keep your eye out for "squibs". I've never had one with my loads but that means nothing.

The main problem I ran in to was with both the 38 Colt Short and Long - some manuals have the 38 Colt Long but data was limited. Both are more of a "historic" cartridge with the 38 Colt Short's history dating back originally to the 1851 Colt Navy conversions like the Richards and Mason.

While you mention a 160 gr. boolit - and it may very well be done - I have never tried it. I just can't see using that large of a boolit with a38 Colt Short - but that's just me. I cast a 160 gr RN a lot out of a Lyman 358-311 but I only use them in my 38 spl. loads - both smokeless and BP. For my 38 Colt Long loads I usually stick to a 148-150 gr. RN.

YMMV Good luck - be safe and have fun!

[wonderwolf]

I have 6 shelves of load books and various other sources of load data its not an easy one to find.....only found half a dozen with data and half of those used obsolete powders. The rest just say the same load of bullseye pretty much with something around a 120-130gr bullet. Thanks for the starting point thoughts, one reason I was thinking the 75gr is because it wouldn't seat as deep as even a 158 or 105gr with a crimp groove part way up the bullet. I'll load a few up and play with them some. Shooting out of a GP100 and 77 Bolt action so we'll see what kind of performance or lack of I can get.

[bedbugbilly]

I'll be interested to hear what you come up with as far as the WC load. If you can, could you post a picture of the boolit you're using and a loaded cartridge showing how far you seat it in. In my 38s, I use a Lyman 35891 which I seat to the top groove so some of it sticks out. Looking at the Lyman/Ideal chart, something like the Lyman 358101 (which I believe is 79 gr.) looks like it would be fun to try.

Then of course, leaving the power charge the same (say starting at 2 gr. of BE) you could play with the seating depth as well.

I can relate to the frustration in finding a load for this cartridge. It's a fun round to load and shoot but most of what I ran across were very "vintage" loads with powders that aren't available today. Most of what I found were in BE. I like the 38 Short and Long for the "historical" aspect of them. I found more data on the 38 Colt Long than I did on the Short.

I have a H & R 357 Handi Rifle but I haven't tried the Colt Shorts out of it yet. I have to believe that they would work just fine though for plinking and that the Bulls Eye and Red Dot would be just fine. I know you are aware of it but just keep looking for squibs in your rifle after each shot as you work you load up.

You could also load the Short with BP. I've done that and used them in my Ruger NV - if you don't mind the clean up afterwards. Another powder to try would be Unique although I have not run across anything in regards to what the min or max load would be. Since it's a slower powder the BE or RD, it might be interesting to see what it does out of the rifle.

Good luck and hope it all works out! Let us know what you come up with - especially with the WC loads. Ought to be interesting and a lot of fun!

[Outpost75]

I use the .38 Short Colt as a low noise pest control round in a rook rifle. I have had best results with 36-155D and 1.7-2.0 grains of Bullseye, which are the lightest chsrges which reliably exit the rifle barrel. Like a .38 caliber CB cap.

[wonderwolf]

358101 is exactly what I'll be using in fact, I'm loading some up tonight. I have 3 days in a row I'll be at the range starting tomorrow so I'm sure I'll get testing in somewhere. I'll see about pictures before I load.

ETA: I guess I need to cast some of those 358101's.....box I thought they were in was full of 93gr .30 cal RN bullets. Don't have anything lighter than a 140 on hand so i'll just cast some up this weekend.

[WRideout]

A friend gave me some expended cases from his break-top Iver Johnson. I worked up the following load for 38 Short Colt:
Lee 105 gr 358 boolit, unsized
2.0 gr. Red Dot
WSP primer
LOA 1.03 inches
I did manage to use the regular 38 spl dies, but it is finicky about adjustment. No crimp. They shoot fine in a modern 38 revolver, and I don't have any concerns about pressure in a break top.

Wayne

[bedbugbilly]

WRideout - don't know what you have on hand for dies but before I picked up a set of the Lee 38 Colt Short/Long - I used a regular (all Lee) 38 sizing die - then used a 9mm expander - changed the 9mm expander plug with the one from my 38 dies - seated with a 9mm seating die - then taper crimped with a 9mm die. You might be able to utilize a .380 die instead? - you'd have to try and see.

I congratulate you if you got the job done with a set of 38 spl. dies! I originally was going to use a Lee carbide FL die and then shorten an old set of RCBS dies to work with the short casing but then someone told me about using the 9mm dies. I load of a Lee classic 4 hole turret and once I got to loading and shooting the shorts, I picked up a set of the Lee dies and said the heck with it. I just picked up another used set of Lee 38 Short/Long dies so will set up another turret plate for loading the longs and save all the hassle of resetting the dies overtime I change from short to long.

I pretty much use Bulls Eye all the time for my 38 spl. but was able to get a couple pounds of Red Dot so tried it out as well - both powders shoot well in that cartridge and I really haven't noticed much variation in the results. It's a fun little cartridge and certainly is easy on the powder and lead and gives a great plinking round.

[wonderwolf]

On the topic of dies, the 9mm Lee powder through expander works very well for this application. Since I have not actually loaded any yet I'm not sure if the other 9mm dies will work, but I imagine they should. As much as I love getting more reloading stuff I would rather not get short dies unless they were cheap. I'm trying to be as utilitarian/frugal/economic as I can about this.

[bedbugbilly]

As far as using the 9mm expander die, it will depend on what your boolits are dropping at. If I remember correctly, the 9mm expander uses a expander plug (in the powder through die) that is intended for a .357 slug. In my case, depending on which boolit I'm using, I load them "as cast". Some fall at .358 and some at .359 +. That's the reason I switched out the expander plug when using the 9mm expander die for the 38 Shorts.

I've never had a problem with loading the fatter boolits in 38 spl with my Lee 38/357 dies but a while back, some one suggested picking up an expander plug for a 38 S & W (not the S & W 38 Sol.) if it was tight getting a "as cast" boolit in. I have several .358-311 160 gr. molds and one drops 'em nice and plump. I do switch over to the 38 S & W expander plug when using that boolit as it's a tight fit. But, the revolver I shoot them in has bigger cylinder chambers and the bore slugs out at around .358 so they fit and shoot just fine.

If you could scrounge up an old 38 spl. expander die and seating/crimp die, you could shorten them so they would work with the Short casings as long as they'll screw in to your press far enough. I always seat and crimp in two separate operations but it's easy enough to do that by seating your batch load and then removing the seating stem and adjusting the die down to crimp.

[wonderwolf]

After some set backs in loading and lack of desired bullets I finally loaded up 20 rounds of 92gr Round nose (what I have on hand currently, hopefully I have tomorrow off work and can cast). Loaded them with 3.5gr of Red dot. bedbugbilly's advice of trying 1.7-2.0gr with the 358101 sound like I could also go lower with this 92gr round nose. I don't want a super fast bullet (lyman cast bullet book has a 4.0gr round nose going out of a 9mm at 1100fps, much too fast for what I want)

I'll be shooting these out of a revolver first (5" gp100) and then I'll try them in my 77 bolt action. The bolt action has a tight lock up so I'm concerned about a stuck bullet and a light charge of bullseye or red dot...probably needlessly but paranoia has kept me alive this long. I posted a picture of my loaded ammo in the 77/357 mags, I have 5 round mags, first two always seem to want to nose dive but the last 3 always feed fine. Eventually I'll get around to tuning the gun and mags (polishing mostly) as they drag in some areas and could use some clean up on some angles.

http://wonderwolfs.blogspot.com/2015/04/a-preface-to-my38-short-colt-idea.html