Punch diameter?

[andyt53]

Simple question, that for some reason I cant figure out. Using the CH4D 40 cal swage dies, and using 9mm for jackets, what should the core seat punch diameter be?

I think the one I have is just a little too small, causing a fair amount of lead blow by. I was okay with it, but now I'm starting to really not like it. I would like to know what the proper diameter for the punch is because my neighbor said he would turn one on the lathe for me. I would like to get it pretty much correct the first time since I do not like asking him to make stuff for me. Anyhow, thank you in advance.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Is there lead blow by because you are over seating the cores?

I seat the cores to the point right before I get lead blow by. Your punch will be limited to the diameter of the case mouth of the brass. But, the construction of the walls of 9mm brass is not uniform. It tapers and gets thicker at the base...but chances are your punch will never get that far down in the case when seating cores.

If I were you I would turn a punch that just barely fits inside your jacket. You can always turn it down from there.

I think I remember you saying you are using reloading press dies. If that is the case, then seat your core to the point just before lead blow by...and if it stays up in the core seat die when you lower your ram, then you should be good to go.

[andyt53]

Yes, I am using reloading press dies. I'm seating the cores just to where they come out of the core seat die measuring .399". After point forming, they measure .399.5 on my digital calipers. If I don't seat the cores like I am currently, the swaged core comes out of the die measuring .397-.398".

Am I missing something? When doing my limited testing, I just tossed the ones that came out of the core seat die into my remelt bucket. Then I seated the cores a little deeper to expand to .399" out of the core seat die. So I skipped trying to point form and get a final measurment with the .397-.398" cores that had hardly any lead blow by.

Is the point form die meant to finish the expansion to final diameter? I get that feeling since my cores go in as .399" and come out as .399.5". I really need a micrometer.

All in all, the bullets I have made and shot, they performed pretty well. Well enough for me at least!

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Yep try letting the point form finish the final 2 thousandths

[andyt53]

Okay, I will try tomorrow after work. Done in the reloading room for the night. This going to work at 1:30am is getting old! Thank you for the help. I will update with results tomorrow.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Yes, you need micrometers. Good luck!

[andyt53]

Well I guess I should read and study more. Backing off the core seat die eliminated my lead blow by. The cores came out at .398". After point forming, they came in at .399-.400".

Also, my final projectiles are measuring .710-.712" in length. I recall reading in a thread and BT said to try and keep them under .700" due to possibly running into the tapered part of the 40 S&W case.

The projectiles I swaged prior to these, I used 380 Auto cases and trimmed down 9mm cases and seated to just shy of magazine length. What's the group say about my current ones being .710-.712" area and seating to mag length? I will start my load work up lighter than my other loads and slowly work up from there. Find an in between load and probably keep it there. Does this sound about right?

[Short Range]

What's the group say about my current ones being .710-.712" area and seating to mag length?

In my very limited experience, less than .700 is better. I am swaging to .685 right now and seating those to a COAL of 1.135. Some brands of brass will just start to expand at the base of the bullet at these settings. Not enough to be a problem, just start to show.

[andyt53]

Are you trimming the brass to get a final length of .685"? If not, how do I go about getting under .700" without trimming?

[Short Range]

Are you trimming the brass to get a final length of .685"? If not, how do I go about getting under .700" without trimming?

The brass I use is not trimmed. Using a Lee 120 grain mold that is dropping a few grains heavy. I expand the case just enough for the core to drop in, then bump the core down to the bottom of the case. Using the CH4D swaging die with the flat nose punch. The standard internal punch has been replaced with a hardened punch. At .685 the core fills out the case while compressing the brass down.

133705

133706

[andyt53]

What about keeping them under .700" with the CH4D hollow point punch? Anybody have any tips for me to try? I've tried adjusting the point form die up and down and even the hollow point punch and still can't keep them under .700". The only way I can consistently keep them short enough is by trimming the cases. Maybe I'm doing something wrong and don't see it.....

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Andy how heavy is your core?

[andyt53]

120 grn lee .356 mold. I will get an exact weight when I get home. The swaged bullets come out to 183 grn give or take a grain or two.

Edit:
Just got home from work and checked the weights. The boolits as cast come in at 127 grn average. The swaged bullets come in between 187-190 grns depending on the 9mm case used.

[andyt53]

To clarify, all of my problems are only with the hollow point punch. I have made a few hundred with the flat nose punch that were under .700" with no problems. I'm only having to trim the brass when using the hollow point punch to keep them under .700". I'm trying to figure out how to make hollow points without trimming the brass, and I've been unsuccessful so far.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

If you are displacing the lead to form the hollow point it has to go somewhere. It can really only go up. This is why you hollow points are longer.

Try a lighter core

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

You can always chuck them up in a lathe type trimmer and trim the nose of the bullet a bit

[andyt53]

The lead is not displaced above the jacket. The lead is flush with the jacket, sometimes just a hair over the jacket if the core is a little heavier. If I adjust the die to form the same nose profile as the flat nosed bullets I was making, then the lead would flow above the jacket. I had to back off the point form die to make more of a blunt nose with the hollow point punch. I like the form of the hollow point bullets its making, just not satisfied with the length.

[Short Range]

Gave it a quick try and with the 120 grain core the best I could get was .700 long using the hollow point punch. At that I was just starting to get some lead pushing past the punch. Best solution is probably what IllinoisCoyoteHunter suggested, use a lighter core. With a 112 grain core I can easily get a nice hollow point at .653 long.

[andyt53]

I guess I will get a lighter boolit mold and try the lighter bullets. Question, when making the hollow point with the lighter core, is the lead close to the top of the jacket? Could you post a picture of the light core swaged bullet please?

[Short Range]

I guess I will get a lighter boolit mold and try the lighter bullets. Question, when making the hollow point with the lighter core, is the lead close to the top of the jacket? Could you post a picture of the light core swaged bullet please?

Since you asked so nicely :-D

133849

For comparison the one on the left is the .685 flat nose using the 120 grain core posted above.
Center is the .653 hollow point using the 112 grain core.
The one on the right was made using the 112 grain core and by using the BTX notch die and setting the hollow point punch to deep.

The picture may not show it to clear, but the lead is right up even with the top of the brass.

[andyt53]

Thank you for the patients with me and the pictures. Good reference point for me. I will be getting a 112 grain mold now and trying them. What didnyou use to roll the top of the hollow point in the middle? I messed around with a 45 acp seating die and it rolled the top, but not like that.

[Short Range]

I will be getting a 112 grain mold now and trying them. What did you use to roll the top of the hollow point in the middle? I messed around with a 45 acp seating die and it rolled the top, but not like that.

The mold I have for 112 grain started out life as a TL356-124-2R. It had been abused by its former owner and the top was messed up so I machined .055 off of it so it would drop a lighter core. If you want some of the 112 cores send a PM with an address and I will send you some to try out.
Didn't do anything special to roll the top of the hollow point. It is just the radius on the hollow point punch and the way the die was set.
Another advantage to using a lighter core is that you have room to play around with adding an airsoft BB for some extra fun.

133865

These were all done with the 112 core.

[andyt53]

I like that.....I need a BTX notching die.

Edit: Thank you for the offer about the sample 112 cores. I'm just going to order a mold. If for whatever reason it doesn't work for me, I have a friend that could use it.

[andyt53]

Cut off some lead from my core to make 112 grains then point formed. Turns out that's all I needed this entire time. Length of the swaged bullet was .686" also had a nice little roll on the top from the hollow point punch. The second and third did not have the little roll feature but measured about the same.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Cool, glad you got it figured out! Now let's see some pictures when you get a chance.

[andyt53]

Im out at a family dinner at the moment and have to get to sleep early tonight for work at 1:30am. I will try to snag a picture or two when I get home. I just can't believe I didn't think about dropping my core weight! Uuggggggghhhhh!!!!!! Darn me.

[andyt53]

http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u366/AndyT53/Guns%20and%20Ammo/B2F57CB0-88FE-4910-9739-F11771E80818.jpg (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/AndyT53/media/Guns%20and%20Ammo/B2F57CB0-88FE-4910-9739-F11771E80818.jpg.html)

As you can see, I got it all figured out. These projectiles measure in at .684-.686". I played around with a minor change in the dies to get that rolled look at the nose. These are just dummy rounds.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Nothin' wrong with those! Lookin good!

[Short Range]

Glad to see you have it figured out.
I am going to have to play around with the settings sometime and see if I can get the rolled look also :D

[andyt53]

Short Range, on the first page of this thread, you posted a picture with a rolled looked projectile. I asked what you used and you said it was just the setting of the die. So what I did was bring the die down to close up the point just enough to have the brass fall within the little flange at the top of the hollow point punch. Then I adjusted the punch a little at a time to not only compress the projectile for my final length, but it also rolled the top. My terms for everything may be very wrong, hopefully it makes sense.

Illinois, thank you! Made up 200 of them today. Sucks using the 127grn lead cores and cutting them down to 112grn. Ordered a Lee 358-105-SWC to use as my mold. My lead is dropping roughly 7 grains over what the mold says. So hopefully they drop at 112 grains. If not, I will open the mold up until it does.

[andyt53]

Got my Lee 358-105 mold in yesterday. Just dropped 100 cores from it to get a baseline. They all average between 107-108 grains. Swaged a few and could not be happier! Now to cast a few thousand cores then get to swaging!!!