Thinking about building an AR... What caliber?

[Arisaka99]

So in the AR world there is a myriad of choices for parts and calibers. I've been wanting to build one for a while, and I have been thinking .223 Wylde since it's both 223 and 5.56. Aside from that, I don't know a whole lot about it.

My question is, if I'm building an AR for the first time, should I stick with 5.56 or .223 Wylde, or should I look into 6.8, 300BLK, .458Socom etc. I would like to be able to hunt deer with it, but I've got a rifle already for that. This would mainly be a coyote/ HD/ fun target gun.

[HABCAN]

Just for ***** and giggles I'll suggest 7TC/U. That should suffice for your stated needs/wants.

[OptimusPanda]

I just finished my first ar build a couple months ago and had had the same questions rattling through my head. I decided that the build needed a theme. Lightweight came to mind so I went 5.56. Personally I think 300 blackout would be kinda nifty.

[dragon813gt]

First time, build one in 5.56. After that build whatever you want. Everyone should have an AR in 5.56 just because you can.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Admittedly I like a 7.62 battle rifle. However the 5.56/223 is really a wonderful round for a lot of different application and the AR-15 is up to the task depending how you set it up!

Want a CQB weapon go with a 16" barrel and a red dot sight!

Want a mid range 400 yd. yote gun go with a 20" heavy barrel and a 6X18 scope!

The combinations are endless and the build is half the fun!!!

[dkf]

So in the AR world there is a myriad of choices for parts and calibers. I've been wanting to build one for a while, and I have been thinking .223 Wylde since it's both 223 and 5.56. Aside from that, I don't know a whole lot about it.

My question is, if I'm building an AR for the first time, should I stick with 5.56 or .223 Wylde, or should I look into 6.8, 300BLK, .458Socom etc. I would like to be able to hunt deer with it, but I've got a rifle already for that. This would mainly be a coyote/ HD/ fun target gun.

If you want a plinker that you do not expect sub MOA out of either a .223 WYLDE or 5.56 is fine even chrome lined. If you want a sub MOA AR then you you best to have a .223WYLDE and a non chrome lined barrel. The .223 wylde tends to be more accurate than the 5.56 but both chambers can shoot .223 or 5.56 ammo.

For deer the .223/5.56 will do at reasonable distances with the right bullet. We are fortunate to have some good solid performing hunting bullets out now in .224" but that was not always the case. If you want a sub 200 yard big animal knocker overer it is hard to beat the .458socom. It all depends what your hunting ranges and game are.

I always figured it is best to start off with a .223/5.56 in an AR and then branch out to other chamberings if you wish. For smaller game, home defense and target shooting the the little .223/5.56 is hard to beat.

[Cmm_3940]

First time, build one in 5.56. After that build whatever you want. Everyone should have an AR in 5.56 just because you can.

+1 on this. It's the new .22lr. Everyone should have one. I chose a .223 Wylde chamber 1-8 20" stainless heavy profile for mine.

[Remiel]

Just finished a AR15 in .223 Wylde for the wife, Its a 16 in carbine w. free float tube from Classic firearms, Geissele gas block, Dpms parts kit in the upper and lower, nickle boron bcg, and sadly a thorsden stock to satisfy the laws in ny. wife loves it and it shoots great

[500MAG]

Like dragon said, 5.56. I never was really into them until there was some concern that we would be told we couldn't have them anymore. Now, I'm on my 3rd caliber 5.56, 7.62x39, 458 socom. Next one will be 300 blackout. I was always a revolver guy but I love these things now.

[aspangler]

The AR platform is very versatile. Build your first one in 5.56. after that it's just a matter of changing the upper and BCG to change calibers.

[dragon813gt]

Anyone have any recommendations for a barrel nut wrench? All of the armorers tools have bad reviews regardless of cost. I can't use one that goes all the way around the barrel because the front sight is already installed on the barrel. The prices for them are all over the place.

[cstrickland]

Anyone have any recommendations for a barrel nut wrench? All of the armorers tools have bad reviews regardless of cost. I can't use one that goes all the way around the barrel because the front sight is already installed on the barrel. The prices for them are all over the place.

you cant drive out the pins ? you are going to need to if you need the barrel nut

[cstrickland]

So in the AR world there is a myriad of choices for parts and calibers. I've been wanting to build one for a while, and I have been thinking .223 Wylde since it's both 223 and 5.56. Aside from that, I don't know a whole lot about it.

My question is, if I'm building an AR for the first time, should I stick with 5.56 or .223 Wylde, or should I look into 6.8, 300BLK, .458Socom etc. I would like to be able to hunt deer with it, but I've got a rifle already for that. This would mainly be a coyote/ HD/ fun target gun.


Ill go out on a limb and say 204 ruger or 6 x 45. either will use standard magazines, so all you need is a new barrel . I think either would put a hurt on a yote without doubt .

[bruce drake]

First time, build one in 5.56. After that build whatever you want. Everyone should have an AR in 5.56 just because you can.

My exact advice as well.

[dkf]

Anyone have any recommendations for a barrel nut wrench? All of the armorers tools have bad reviews regardless of cost. I can't use one that goes all the way around the barrel because the front sight is already installed on the barrel. The prices for them are all over the place.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/wrenches/usgi-barrel-nut-wrench-prod65710.aspx?avs|Make_3=AR-15/M4

[GabbyM]

Major difference between the 5.56mm NATO chamber and the 223 Wylde is the throat diameter. NATO uses a .227" throat Wylde uses a .224" throat. Nato chambers are specked with about .006" extra length in the head space. Both have a longer throat than a 223 SAMI to accept the long .224" bullets.

like the Wylde chamber.

My last barrel was a Criterion 20" Hybrid contour. From Brownells. I love it and it's plenty heavy and all I want to carry around hunting.

Last year I bought an RCBS X die in 223 standard. Only used it on a few hundred cases so far but it seams to work to limit length growth. So I'd highly recommend that to save brass life. Plus regular annealing schedule on the necks.
Bought one of those cheep $9 Caldwell brass catcher bags. Amazed it actually works. That is a serious labor savor especially shooting out at the farm in grass or fields where you just won't find that 22 cent brass.

I'd suggest staying away from discount catalogs for parts. Majority of it is total junk. I like W.O.A. (whiteoakarmament.com/ (https://whiteoakarmament.com/)), Brownells and Fulton Armory. There are of course others. Seriously don't buy parts with no manufacturer name or simply "mil spec".

[texaswoodworker]

So in the AR world there is a myriad of choices for parts and calibers. I've been wanting to build one for a while, and I have been thinking .223 Wylde since it's both 223 and 5.56. Aside from that, I don't know a whole lot about it.

My question is, if I'm building an AR for the first time, should I stick with 5.56 or .223 Wylde, or should I look into 6.8, 300BLK, .458Socom etc. I would like to be able to hunt deer with it, but I've got a rifle already for that. This would mainly be a coyote/ HD/ fun target gun.

Mine has a 5.56 chamber, and shoots .223 very accurately.

What area of the country are you from? The deer down here in Texas don't get monstrously big, so .223 with a 65gr Seirra GameKing bullet works fine. Up North where the deer get really big, you'll want something a little more powerful.

6.8 Rem SPC is a good round. It pushes a 115gr bullet at 2600 FPS.

The .300 BLK is good for close quarters stuff and is great if you want to suppress the gun. It pushes a 125gr bullet at 2200 FPS or a 220gr bullet at 1000 FPS. It's not my first choice for a hunting round, but it could work within it's limitations.

.458 SOCOM is a monster of a round. A little pricier to load for, but it will put a smile on your face and put meat in the freezer.

A few others to look into are the 6.5 Grendel and the 25-45 Sharps.

The 6.5 Grendel pushes a 120gr bullet at 2700 FPS and IIRC, is good out to about 800 yards. It's super accurate and would do everything your wanting to do.

The 25-45 Sharps is just a .223 necked up to 25 caliber. They claim it pushes an 87gr bullet at 3000 FPS. It would also do everything your wanting to do with ease.

Personally, I'd either stick with the standard 5.56/.223, or go for the 6.5 Grendel or the 25-45 Sharps. .204 Ruger might also be fun to play with.

[2wheelDuke]

I'd say the 5.56/.223wylde is something we should all have one of. I'm also fond of .300 blackout. It's been very cast friendly so far, where I didn't have great luck with cast in .223. Eventually I'll get another mold for .223 and try it now that I'm into PC and HiTek. I live in Florida where long shots are basically non existant, so I don't run into the limitations of .300blk where others will.

I also like the idea of the 6.8 and the big more ARs, but brass and parts are more expensive than for .223 and .300blk.

I started with a 5.56 gun, eventually got a .300blk upper, then built a second lower for that extra upper.

[khmer6]

Build a fitty!!!! Jk. If it's your first I probably would say 556. Plenty of brass. It's the most popular so you can tinker and pick brains a lot. Also you may just want to pick up a new one with warranty and all for the low price they are going for these days. Break it down learn the internals and mechanism etc. Then build up to another caliber. You can seriously find new AR for like 450-600 these days. Yeah it's not a Colt or fancy. But for plinking and starting ground it might be worth it to start with a complete gun

[texaswoodworker]

I highly recommend a Palmetto State Armory AR as a starter gun. They are cheap, but very well made. They were going for $600 a few years ago for a basic rifle.

[NavyVet1959]

Where do you live and shoot? A long range cartridge is not appropriate if you are lucky to even have 100 yd open areas.

Whatever you do, just make sure that you build it as a "handgun" initially so that you can convert the lower between handgun and rifle and back as you see fit.

My first one was a 5.56 and the second one was a .300 AAC. The .300 AAC has about the ballistics of a .30-30, so it might be an acceptable deer gun. There's been plenty of threads debating this on this site and others. Have fun reading through all of them. :)

[Jupiter7]

The 300blk actually has ballistics of 7.62x39, almost. With a 125gr in 30-30 I can break 2600fps, ain't gonna happen with the x39 or 300blk.

[NavyVet1959]

The 300blk actually has ballistics of 7.62x39, almost. With a 125gr in 30-30 I can break 2600fps, ain't gonna happen with the x39 or 300blk.

For the deers around here, a cast 240 gr 30 caliber bullet at 1000 fps would be enough at the ranges that I see them at. It's going to have the sectional density to punch a hole right through both lungs. The deer is not going to be going all that far after that. If you live somewhere that has decent size deer, your mileage may vary. Although the .300 AAC would probably be good for many of the hogs that I see, I carry a .45-70 instead. I like to know that I brought enough gun with me, just in case.

[Arisaka99]

I live in the mountains in central VA. I may have an in to go shoot coyotes in the Shenandoah though, and that is rolling hills. I haven't secured any deer hunting land yet either, so it's a nonissue. In VA we have to use a .23 caliber or larger rifle, so the .223 is not an option to deer hunt either, sadly. I'm thinking I'll probably do like most said and go with a 5.56 and get a .223 Wylde upper and maybe a 6.5 Grendel or .300Blk.

A buddy built a really nice 300Blk rifle and I got to shoot it. Been wanting one ever since.

[Arisaka99]

How would you build as a handgun to begin with, and then build a rifle? Am I just being dense? Haha

[dragon813gt]

How would you build as a handgun to begin with, and then build a rifle? Am I just being dense? Haha

Once a rifle, always a rifle. The issue arises in how the lower is written up on the 4473. Mine are all written up as "other" since according to the PA State Police a lower can not be registered as a handgun. Now if I was buying a factory pistol AR that lower would be registered as a handgun. We have a separate form to fill out for handguns in PA. As always do your own research. But the BATFE says it's okay to go from pistol to rifle(not SBR unless you have the stamp) and back.

[Arisaka99]

I looked it up right after I replied. So build a pistol first, then build a rifle. That is smart.

[NavyVet1959]

Once a rifle, always a rifle.

Actually, according to the ATF, it's if it starts as a rifle, it must stay as a rifle, but if it starts as a handgun, you can go back and forth as needed.

[NavyVet1959]

I looked it up right after I replied. So build a pistol first, then build a rifle. That is smart.

It's just a technicality, but it's one that is easy to accomplish, so it's not a big deal.

When you are building it, do not put a stock on it, just leave the buffer tube there. At that point it is classified as a handgun even if you were to have a long barrel on it. Take it to the range and shoot it some. It's now officially a handgun even if you go back home and install the stock on it. The main thing that this does for you is allow you to put a short barrel on it and as long as you don't have a stock on it at the same time, you don't have to register it as a SBR.

For those who think that a handgun MUST have less than a 16" barrel, please show me the ruling from the ATF that says that. I have never been able to find such a ruling. In fact, Uberti even makes a revolver with an 18" barrel -- their 1873 Colt Buntline.

https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/9086/10h/origin-d4.scene7.com/is/image/GanderMountainOvertons/615041_L1?$product$

[Jupiter7]

It's just a technicality, but it's one that is easy to accomplish, so it's not a big deal.

When you are building it, do not put a stock on it, just leave the buffer tube there. At that point it is classified as a handgun even if you were to have a long barrel on it. Take it to the range and shoot it some. It's now officially a handgun even if you go back home and install the stock on it. The main thing that this does for you is allow you to put a short barrel on it and as long as you don't have a stock on it at the same time, you don't have to register it as a SBR.

For those who think that a handgun MUST have less than a 16" barrel, please show me the ruling from the ATF that says that. I have never been able to find such a ruling. In fact, Uberti even makes a revolver with an 18" barrel -- their 1873 Colt Buntline.

https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/9086/10h/origin-d4.scene7.com/is/image/GanderMountainOvertons/615041_L1?$product$

not quite. Using a standard collapsible buffer tube that would readily allow a stock to be attached with a short barrel would be a big no-no. A pistol must not be readily available to attach a stock. Pistol AR is best left as a pistol or in pistol configuration til Form 1 comes back approved. I have one pistol marked lower that was transferred as a semi-automatic handgun and will stay that way. Legally here, a pistol can be loaded during transport, as a rifle can't be chambered during transport it makes it a very handy tool. We can't hunt with SBR's here, but rifle caliber pistol is legal. Stupid...

[NavyVet1959]

not quite. Using a standard collapsible buffer tube that would readily allow a stock to be attached with a short barrel would be a big no-no. A pistol must not be readily available to attach a stock. Pistol AR is best left as a pistol or in pistol configuration til Form 1 comes back approved. I have one pistol marked lower that was transferred as a semi-automatic handgun and will stay that way. Legally here, a pistol can be loaded during transport, as a rifle can't be chambered during transport it makes it a very handy tool. We can't hunt with SBR's here, but rifle caliber pistol is legal. Stupid...

Could you show where the ATF has made that as a ruling/opinion? Many of the pistol ARsb use the same buffet tube as the one with the collapsible stock. The Uberti above could be quickly converted from what I can tell by just replacing the grips with a grip/shoulder stock. Some people even like the original longer buffer tube from the fixed stock since it gives them a better cheek weld as it sits over the top of the shoulder. The main advantage of the AR platform is that it is so configurable no matter how strange your tastes might be. :)

[dragon813gt]

How do you plan on proving to the BATFE that you fired it in pistol configuration first? This is a slippery slope w/out documentation. If the lower was not listed as "handgun" or "other" on the 4473 I would not risk configuring it as a pistol. We all know the BATFE doesn't make rules that are clear.

[NavyVet1959]

How do you plan on proving to the BATFE that you fired it in pistol configuration first? This is a slippery slope w/out documentation. If the lower was not listed as "handgun" or "other" on the 4473 I would not risk configuring it as a pistol. We all know the BATFE doesn't make rules that are clear.

Last I heard it was still "innocent until proven guilty".

Mine were listed as "other" though.

[dkf]

Could you show where the ATF has made that as a ruling/opinion? Many of the pistol ARsb use the same buffet tube as the one with the collapsible stock. The Uberti above could be quickly converted from what I can tell by just replacing the grips with a grip/shoulder stock. Some people even like the original longer buffer tube from the fixed stock since it gives them a better cheek weld as it sits over the top of the shoulder. The main advantage of the AR platform is that it is so configurable no matter how strange your tastes might be. :)

No, pistol and carbine (for a stock) buffer tubes are completely different. Guys don't put rifle buffer tubes for an A2 stock on pistol lowers both due to size and it is designed to fit a rifle stock.

The Uberti above has a barrel 16" or longer and would be over 26" OAL if a stock were put on it.

[Jupiter7]

Last I heard it was still "innocent until proven guilty".

Mine were listed as "other" though.

Sad part is Is they don't play by the rules. Intent is enough for them and more trouble than I'm comfortable dealing with. Best to err on the safe side.

[dkf]

Sad part is Is they don't play by the rules. Intent is enough for them and more trouble than I'm comfortable dealing with. Best to err on the safe side.

That and they make their own rules as they see fit. Plus, thanks to SCOTUS they don't even have to let us know before they make the changes.

[NavyVet1959]

No, pistol and carbine (for a stock) buffer tubes are completely different. Guys don't put rifle buffer tubes for an A2 stock on pistol lowers both due to size and it is designed to fit a rifle stock.


Actually, people have used all the different types of buffer tubes for AR handguns. It's a matter of whatever is convenient. If you start out with a 16" barrel for your AR handgun, there is no way that the ATF would have an issue for it even if you had a rifle stock that fit your buffer. The reason for this is that there is no way they could claim "constructive intent" since without the stock, it's a legal handgun and with the stock, it's a legal rifle. There is no way that you could make a SBR out of it. Now, if you started out with a short barrel, you would have a be a bit more careful to ensure that at no time during the conversion from pistol to rifle did you have something that might require registration under the NFA.

This has been discussed on AR15.com and one of the guys there even got a letter from the ATF.
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=483410

http://i61.tinypic.com/25zgokn.jpg

The think is, anyone who has customized their AR a bit will have enough spare parts that they could technically build a SBR if they were so inclined. When I built my .300 AAC AR pistol, it was more of a case of me looking for something else in my gun safe and realizing that I nearly had enough spare parts to build another AR, so I did it. I still have a fair assortment of AR parts, but not enough to complete another one ... yet ...

[dragon813gt]

Last I heard it was still "innocent until proven guilty".

Mine were listed as "other" though.

I'm asking as a serious question. Do you think the BATFE plays by those rules? I know they don't and you will be guilty into proven innocent. Better to not play around w/ constructive intent, when it comes to pistols, unless the lower has been transferred to you as a "handgun" or "other". It's going to take a lot of money to fight the government and no one wants to go through that.

[dkf]

Actually, people have used all the different types of buffer tubes for AR handguns. It's a matter of whatever is convenient. If you start out with a 16" barrel for your AR handgun, there is no way that the ATF would have an issue for it even if you had a rifle stock that fit your buffer. The reason for this is that there is no way they could claim "constructive intent" since without the stock, it's a legal handgun and with the stock, it's a legal rifle. There is no way that you could make a SBR out of it. Now, if you started out with a short barrel, you would have a be a bit more careful to ensure that at no time during the conversion from pistol to rifle did you have something that might require registration under the NFA.

This has been discussed on AR15.com and one of the guys there even got a letter from the ATF.
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=483410


http://i61.tinypic.com/25zgokn.jpg

The think is, anyone who has customized their AR a bit will have enough spare parts that they could technically build a SBR if they were so inclined. When I built my .300 AAC AR pistol, it was more of a case of me looking for something else in my gun safe and realizing that I nearly had enough spare parts to build another AR, so I did it. I still have a fair assortment of AR parts, but not enough to complete another one ... yet ...

Read the last part of the letter. In other words if you are in possession of a rifle stock and have a rifle buffer tube on your AR pistol you are in violation unless the receiver is registered as an SBR. Since pretty much everyone whom owns an AR pistol owns at least one AR rifle and rifle stocks it is kind of a pointless thing to argue. Besides that is an old letter and the ATF changes their minds more than underwear.

[NavyVet1959]

Read the last part of the letter. In other words if you are in possession of a rifle stock and have a rifle buffer tube on your AR pistol you are in violation unless the receiver is registered as an SBR. Since pretty much everyone whom owns an AR pistol owns at least one AR rifle and rifle stocks it is kind of a pointless thing to argue. Besides that is an old letter and the ATF changes their minds more than underwear.

If you have a more recent letter to cite (either for or against this), feel free to post a link to it.

To have an SBR, you have to start off with a barrel less than 16". If you start out with a barrel GREATER than 16", then it doesn't matter whether you have a stock or not since the only two configurations that you could create with that stock that is in your spare parts bin is a handgun or a rifle.

Most people that I know who have AR handguns started off with the buffer tube from the M4 collapsible stock because it was often cheaper to buy the buffer tube plus stock in the kit form than it was to buy just a buffer tube alone. Yeah, doesn't make sense, but it sometimes works out that way. They then put either a piece of foam over it or a rubber tip.

If the ATF wants to start claiming that having a spare stock in your your spare parts bin is the equivalent of intent to create a SBR if you have an AR handgun, then they would also have to say that about those people who own both an AR handgun and an AR rifle since it is a simple matter to take the stock off one and put it on the other or for that matter, take the upper off the pistol and put it on the rifle.

[NavyVet1959]

A long as you do not configure it in an NFA configuration when switching from a handgun to a rifle, it's kosher.

https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

You just have to start out with the lower either listed as a "pistol" or as "other" on the 4473. When I bought a few stripped lowers a few years back, they were all listed as "other" since I had no idea at the time what exactly what I was going to build. At that time, there was a large backlog in AR parts and kits, so I had pieces coming in here and there for probably 9 months. Some items were not even available separately, you had to order a kit, even if you didn't need all the items in the kit. A lot of other people were in the same boat and I'm sure they have a drawer of spare AR parts also. As long as you don't configure those parts into an NFA controlled firearm, you just have a weapon that is in "knockdown condition".

[dkf]

If you have a more recent letter to cite (either for or against this), feel free to post a link to it.

To have an SBR, you have to start off with a barrel less than 16". If you start out with a barrel GREATER than 16", then it doesn't matter whether you have a stock or not since the only two configurations that you could create with that stock that is in your spare parts bin is a handgun or a rifle.

Most people that I know who have AR handguns started off with the buffer tube from the M4 collapsible stock because it was often cheaper to buy the buffer tube plus stock in the kit form than it was to buy just a buffer tube alone. Yeah, doesn't make sense, but it sometimes works out that way. They then put either a piece of foam over it or a rubber tip.

If the ATF wants to start claiming that having a spare stock in your your spare parts bin is the equivalent of intent to create a SBR if you have an AR handgun, then they would also have to say that about those people who own both an AR handgun and an AR rifle since it is a simple matter to take the stock off one and put it on the other or for that matter, take the upper off the pistol and put it on the rifle.

According to your letter you posted, it clearly states POSSESSION. If you have a pistol with a rifle/carbine buffer tube on it and are in possession of a rifle stock you are in violation plain and simple.

From the above link




However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made
if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm
(e.g. , a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or (b) convert a complete weapon into an NFA firearm
(e.g. , a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a long -barreled rifle and attachable short barrel).

[dragon813gt]

Back to the original topic. Anyone have any experience w/ 25-223? I like the fact that you can run heavier bullets. But not sure if CH4D worked out the die issues. The thread about it is really long.

[NavyVet1959]

According to your letter you posted, it clearly states POSSESSION. If you have a pistol with a rifle/carbine buffer tube on it and are in possession of a rifle stock you are in violation plain and simple.

From the above link

But then the question becomes what is "close proximity"? I would argue that just having a bunch of spare parts that *could* be used to construct a SBR does not mean that you will, just like the fact that most of us have the raw materials for a chemical bomb either under the sink in our kitchen or in our garage does not mean that we are going to make one.

What I've seen in this discussion is that I am the one posting links and providing evidence and you are just saying, "nawh, it ain't so" to whatever I post. How about *you* posting some links supporting your opinion for a change?

I still stand by my original suggestion -- build the firearm as a *handgun* first and then convert it to a rifle if that is what you want it to be for now. A handgun can have a barrel over 16" long, if you so desire, thus having a stock on hand would not be an NFA issue as long as when you assemble it as a rifle and the stock is fully extended, the firearm is at least 26" long.

[dkf]

What I'd like to know if there are any dimensional chamber differences between 25-223 and 25-45 sharps or if it is a different name for the same thing. There are Redding and RCBS dies (and probably more) available for the 25-45 sharps.

[dragon813gt]

What I'd like to know if there are any dimensional chamber differences between 25-223 and 25-45 sharps or if it is a different name for the same thing. There are Redding and RCBS dies (and probably more) available for the 25-45 sharps.

They aren't the same dimensions. The only reason more Sharps products are available is because it's a SAAMI cartridge. IMO there is no point in having a 25 caliber cartridge if you can't shoot the longer 100 grain bullets out of it. I'm not sold on the Sharps w/ it's limitations. What I'm not sure of is if you can just trim the case back to make it a 25-223. I have a feeling the 25-45 dies wouldn't work at this point. The fact that there isn't a standard 25 AR cartridge boggles my mind.

[Arisaka99]

So is the general consensus to build either a 223 Wylde or 5.56 first?

[Jupiter7]

What I'd like to know if there are any dimensional chamber differences between 25-223 and 25-45 sharps or if it is a different name for the same thing. There are Redding and RCBS dies (and probably more) available for the 25-45 sharps.

25-223 is actually 25x43. The CH4d dies aren't necessary. Easy solution is .223 redding s-type die with 25cal expander and use a .223 seating die. I'll hopefully be getting my barrel soon. My plan is to make this an all around hunting gun. Good for varmint and good for deer.

[dragon813gt]

So is the general consensus to build either a 223 Wylde or 5.56 first?

Yes, it's what almost everyone does. Nothing wrong w/ other cartridges but might as well cover the base first.


25-223 is actually 25x43. The CH4d dies aren't necessary. Easy solution is .223 redding s-type die with 25cal expander and use a .223 seating die. I'll hopefully be getting my barrel soon. .

Who are you getting the barrel from? I'm assuming those are the dies you're using to from the cases?

[dkf]

So is the general consensus to build either a 223 Wylde or 5.56 first?

Correct.


They aren't the same dimensions. The only reason more Sharps products are available is because it's a SAAMI cartridge. IMO there is no point in having a 25 caliber cartridge if you can't shoot the longer 100 grain bullets out of it. I'm not sold on the Sharps w/ it's limitations. What I'm not sure of is if you can just trim the case back to make it a 25-223. I have a feeling the 25-45 dies wouldn't work at this point. The fact that there isn't a standard 25 AR cartridge boggles my mind.

I take it you can shoot 100gr bullets out of the 25-45 you just have have to single feed them because they are too long to fit in the magazine.

I came across some 100gr bullets for .223/5.56 than can be seated at mag length. http://outlawstatebullets.com/12.html



25-223 is actually 25x43. The CH4d dies aren't necessary. Easy solution is .223 redding s-type die with 25cal expander and use a .223 seating die. I'll hopefully be getting my barrel soon. My plan is to make this an all around hunting gun. Good for varmint and good for deer.

That makes sense that it would be shorter, then you can use the longer 100gr bullets seated to magazine length.

[garym1a2]

I would make it 5.56, a good barrel will be accurate enough for most. By Favorite AR is a 14 inch barrel with a pinned flash-hider to make 16 inch. With a m4 stock its quite short and handy, topped by a TRS25 red dot. Being for home defense I have done a bit of night testing and greatly prefer a good flash hider over a comp.
I also would make it a 1:9 if you plan mostly to shoot the cheap ammo. 1:7 only for the heavies.[
QUOTE=Arisaka99;3177498]So is the general consensus to build either a 223 Wylde or 5.56 first?[/QUOTE]

[Jupiter7]

Who are you getting the barrel from? I'm assuming those are the dies you're using to from the cases?


His name is Brent, goes by 320pf on ar15.com. He along with others started it with the first chambered barrels. The new SpecII chamber allows loading 100grn bullets to 2600fps. The 25-45 I'd bet would max around 2400+/- with 100grn bullets. Most 100grn bullets would be seated on the ogive at mag length. ASC mags allow loading to 2.3" vs 2.25-ish. I've already picked out the profile, .790 behind block, .750 journal and step down to .620 in front of block. Weight is a concern, looking to be at 7lbs with optics and 20rd mag.

[NavyVet1959]

5.56 barrels can be had for $100-150 in the 16+" lengths. The M16 was originally designed around a 20" barrel and some argue that you just lose too much velocity by going below 16". The .300 AAC was designed for getting the most out of a short barrel, so you'll see them with 7.5"-10.5" barrels. Just remember, these rifles were originally designed for shooting humans and not game. The subsequent calibers were often a response to perceived limitations in certain types of shots against humans. As such, they might not be appropriate for the type of game that you hunt. For the military, a serious wound can be more effective than a clean kill shot since it can tie up other soldiers in the evacuation of the wounded soldier. For game though, we tend to like to have clean kills (if for no other reason than the fact that many of us just don't find it fun to be following a blood trail for a mile through the brush).

5.56 commercial ammo availability will probably always be better than the alternative calibers. Same with availability of once-fired brass -- it will be around as long as the military keeps using the 5.56 round (and the government continues to sell the scrap brass as surplus).

http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=9238793

With any of the alternative calibers on the AR, I would look to see if the cartridges could be made from the readily available 5.56 brass. That is one of the reasons that I went with the .300 AAC. I did not want to have to be waiting on some brass manufacturer like Starline to make a run of some rarely used brass that they only do every couple of years. I also didn't want to be tied into having to buy new brass instead of once-fired brass.

I figure that with the 5.56, I use the brass until the neck splits and then trim it down for use in the .300 AAC. If the neck splits on that, I trim it down and reform it for the .22 TCM (which I will probably buy one of these days). If the neck eventually splits on the .22 TCM, I'm thinking maybe a 9x23 would be in my future... :)

[Moonie]

So is the general consensus to build either a 223 Wylde or 5.56 first?

I helped my son build a 5.56 but for my first I went with 6.8 SPC, added an upper in 300 BO and now the 6.8 rarely gets used, did take it hunting once last season though, didn't see anything :(

[NavyVet1959]

I looked up the .22-45 and saw that there was not a Wiki page on it, so I sent an email to Sharps suggesting that they have someone create a Wiki page for the cartridge. I received this in response:




I can provide you as much information on our .25-45 Sharps cartridge as you could digest.

Thank you for your interest in our 25-45 Sharps. Being a student of old/new cartridges you will find it interesting that the .25-45 Sharps duplicates the original loading of the .250 Savage also known as the .250-3000 for its ability to crack the 3000 fps mark back in the day when that was really something. It did it loaded with the same 87 grain weight bullet we use in our primary loading of the .25-45.
Right now we are producing the .25-45 Sharps loaded with an 87 gr Speer HotCor bullet which leaves the muzzle of a 24" barrel at just over 3000 fps. The cartridge burns powder quite efficiently and we generally see velocities around 2975 fps in the 20" barrels. The velocities goes down more predictably as barrels shorten from there with average velocities in a 16" barrel hovering around 2775 fps. We have developed 3 other loads for the .25-45 Sharps that will be phased in the coming months. One is a 87 grain FMJ bullet at 3000 fps loaded in remanufactured military brass intended to be an inexpensive yet full powered practice ammunition, the second is a 87 grain Nosler AccuBond that has been designed especially for the .25-45 both in shape and to give optimal performance leaving the muzzle at 3000 fps and the third is a specially designed 69 grain Hornady V-Max leaving the muzzle of a 24" barrel at 3200 fps.
The original conception of the .25-45 Sharps was to be able to replace the barrel (or upper) on an existing .223/5.56 and while still using the same bolt face, magazines, etc. to have a viable deer/antelope cartridge with the 87 grain bullets and a superior predator/varmint cartridge with the 65 grain bullet.

The .25-45 Sharps is the .223/5.56 case, necked up to .257" with no change in shoulder angle. Brass is easily made by running the parent case through a full-length resizing die.

Taking advantage of new propellants, we are achieving a more efficient burn in a shorter barrel, with no loss in accuracy. As for barrel length we have found that we get very close to complete combustion in a 20" barrel with velocity losses in comparison of the 24" test barrels of around 30 fps depending on the individual barrel. Average velocities for the various barrel lengths using our 87 grain soft point factory load are as follows: 24" barrel = 3000 fps, 20" barrel = 2970 fps, 18" barrel = 2890 fps and 16" barrel = 2790 fps.

Currently, we are the only plant producing loaded ammunition for the .25-45 Sharps. That is certainly going to change, as it has been standardized by SAMMI. You should be seeing bolt action rifles as well as ARs chambered in this caliber. Although we are producing ammunition, we are not yet selling virgin unprimed brass. We sell barrels chambered in .25-45 for the AR modern sporting rifle.

[scarry scarney]

My first was the .223/5.56, second was the 50 Beowulf, third 22LR, fourth 9mm, fifth 6.8spc. I wasn't impressed with the 6.8, cant find 22LR. I enjoy the "Wulf" but I'm always chasing brass (yea, I know, use a brass catcher). So most fun is the 9mm, followed by the .223/5.56.

I don't think I would go with the 300BO, too afraid some idiot would chamber that round in my .223/5.56. If I wanted a 30 cal AR-15, I would look at the 7.62x40 WT.

[oldlincoln]

I have AR's in several calibers but the price of the brass has kept me away from the big bore cartridges. I can make 300 Blk for nothing and 6.5 or 6.8 is only 40 or 60 cents a round.
Of them all the 5.56 is the best overall but the 300 Blk is a hoot and I just love the downrange performance of the 6.5.
I think it's nice to have choices so we can try different things. Uppers are so cheap right now, just make one and if it gets stale, make something new. I look forward to whatever the next new caliber or configuration is.

[xacex]

Some of my favorite flavors for shooting cast out of an AR; 300 Blackout ( I have three of them in varying length and gas configuration. One of my favorites for cast), 9mm( yes, it is a hoot to shoot cast with a 9mm, and cheap), and the big boy 50 Beowulf ( if you have had a rough day, and just need to get bruised up a little). I can't say I like one over the other very much. All three calibers are extremely cast friendly, and all serve a role in the stable. If I had to pick one it would be 300 blackout, and that is only because of how cheap it is to load for, and I can hunt with it. If I couldn't hunt, or did not hunt it would be the 9mm because I can load for .05 cents a round which seems to be the going rate for .22lr these days. If reloading components were no issue, and powder was plentiful and cheap it would be the 50 Beowulf. These days they get rotated depending on mood, if I am hunting that month, and what powder I have in the shop.

[jrap]

id personally go with .223/5.56. my first one was built on a palmetto lower with magpul furniture and a midwest rail and a cheap 16 in barrel

[pull the trigger]

Do you plan on casting for it? At that point I have to say 762x39. Already slow and lee has 150 gr pointed available. If u want a all around round I think the 6x45 is reall hard to beat. Guys are getti g real close to 243 Win velocity from 20" barrels. Thats my next build. Same mags and bolt.

[lup]

As long as you get one of the blow back models, a 9mm ar is cheap to shoot and most places have no issues with them being shot indoors.

Casting isn't an issue which further drives down the ammo costs.