+p loads in 2003 commemorative vaquero .45 colt (pics of gun)

[Andy]

I just got off the phone with a ruger technical support rep who told me that +P ammo is not ok to shoot in my vaquero (.45 colt, made in may 2003), and wanted to check that against the understanding of people here. It was always my understanding that the design change did not occur until 2005, and that +p .45 colt ammo, and "Ruger only" handloads were ok to shoot in this gun, based on this phone call I am now questioning that and looking for more information.

Here are some further details:
- This is a custom serial numbered gun made by ruger and sent to another company for commemorative decorative work (etching and gold inlays)
- I asked the rep if +p was not recommended due to the commemorative features and was told that +p was not recommended for the .45 colt at all in any vaquero made that year, it had nothing to do with the gun having those features. I couldn't get any more explanation as to why it was not allowed but the rep was very emphatic on this point and I asked my question a few different ways to make sure I was being clear, since I was surprised at the answer.
- 6 shot fluted cylinder with gold inlay ring near the rear of cylinder (see pics). Would the inlay ring affect strength?

I'm wondering if the "no +p" statement I got is just a blanket liability thing, or if it is genuine advice that must be taken seriously. I would like to shoot this gun a lot, and don't want to do anything that is questionable, unsafe, or will put unnatural stress on the cylinder/frame.

I have a pair of these and for sentimental reasons will be keeping them for life, so I want to get some use out of at least one of them. It is much more useful to me if I can use +p and/or "ruger only" loads in that gun, so that's where I'm going with this. If doing so is otherwise safe but is going to blow off the gold inlay then I guess I'll have to rethink things, but if I can safely load hot for it and just experience the same normal wear any other vaquero would have from it that is very much ok with me.

Any thoughts you have are greatly appreciated.

Andy

[EDK]

RUGER doesn't like handloads in any firearm...ALMOST all manufacturers give a disclaimer if you shoot handloads.

IF you're going to be "keeping them for life" use standard 45 COLT data. Buy something similar to run the hot stuff through AND don't get the ammo mixed up!

I had a 44 magnum VAQUERO tuned by ALPHA PRECISION, Super Black Hawk hammer and HUNTER grip frame, and bent the top strap and launched the top of three chambers. $1000 worth of custom gun turned into $200 worth of spare parts. IF I knew the cause, I would have corrected the problem before trashing the gun. Duh. I've been reloading since 1966 and never thought it would happen to me.

[Andy]

I understand that ruger isn't going to recommend anything about reloaded ammo, that is why I asked if it was ok to fire factory +P ammo (like is offered by buffalo bore). I did not mention reloaded ammo on the phone call and have never fired reloaded ammo through it. Buffalo bore says their .45 colt +p is ok for any pre-2005 vaquero, and the ruger rep said "no .45 +p at all". I'm asking the question because I know people here have a lot of experience with these types of guns, loading them to their real potential, and I will trust their collective experience more than a blanket statement from a liability concerned company.

For what it is worth, I measured the cylinder just now and it conforms to the specs of the "old vaquero" as per the size chart listed here: http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-NewVaquero.htm

I don't want to artifically hold the gun down from its potential just because it is decorative. If I can shoot it full strength I would like to be able to. I won't be reselling the gun so it is something I want to use.

[dubber123]

If it is indeed the "old Vaquero" frame and cylinder, I would have no qualms whatsoever about running full potential loads through it. I would simply confirm that it is, and not of the smaller lighter new Vaquero, and load accordingly. IF it's the older one, be prepared to be surprised at what the old Colt round can do. Unless you already know of course.. :)

[contender1]

Simple way to determine if it'll handle "Ruger only" loads.
Look at the serial number, if it has a 2-digit prefix, (example; 48-12345) it'll handle Ruger only loads. If it has the 3-digit prefix, (Example; 513-12345) then it's a smaller mian frame, not recommended to use "Ruger only" loads.

[Andy]

Contender, thanks for the tip on serial numbers. Unfortunately this is a custom serial numbered gun so it doesn't follow that convention, it's 4 letters then 5 numbers.

As far as confirming if it is an "old" or "new" vaquero (the more I'm reading the more I see there is debate on what to call these versions, so please bear with me in just saying "old" vs "new" for sake of keeping this thread consistent). Following that gunblast link I provided above will give you an article about the size/visual differences between the original vaquero and "new" smaller frame vaquero. As per that article I have the following:

- Circular ejector rod pad (not crescent shaped): standard to "old" vaquero
- Older style grip internal spring without the safety lock: standard to "old" vaquero
- XR3 grip (not xr3-red): NOT standard to "old" vaquero, standard to "new" vaquero
- Cylinder diameter, cylinder length and cylinder frame opening are all right near the specs listed for "old" vaquero and not close to the specs listed for "new" vaquero.
- A visual comparison between my cylinder appearance (how much steel is there between chamber walls) and that found here: http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger-NewVaquero/MVC-2011F.jpg gives me further confirmation that the cylinder (at least) strongly appears to be an "old" vs "new"
- Part of the gun design for this run was based on making it as similar as possible to a colt SAA in appearance so it is possible that Ruger offered to put the xr-3 grip on the vaquero as a concession toward that. My understanding is that while this is not normal for an "old" vaquero, that the grip frames are interchangeable.
- I bought the gun in 2003 and know that it was commissioned within a year or two prior so I am certain of the year it was made before.

To establish a baseline for discussion: with a regular vaquero made in 2003, is it ok to fire .45 Colt +p factory ammo? I realize that is not necessarily my gun, but want to get that question out of the way to frame the discussion on it.

Thanks for all the help so far.

[Andy]

Here are pictures of the grip frame and ejector rod:133558133559

[Tackleberry41]

There was a pic posted on a thread I did asking about higher pressure loads in a black hawk, it showed the back of the 2 cyl, where they had to shrink everything a little to get 45 to fit in the smaller frame gun. Since you cant go off the prefix. Your wasting your time calling Ruger, as stated they will never admit to anything.

[DougGuy]

There was a pic posted on a thread I did asking about higher pressure loads in a black hawk, it showed the back of the 2 cyl, where they had to shrink everything a little to get 45 to fit in the smaller frame gun. Since you cant go off the prefix. Your wasting your time calling Ruger, as stated they will never admit to anything.

No you HAVE TO go off the prefix. Ruger did NOT make any medium frame Vaqueros with two digit prefixes. ALL of the medium frame .45 caliber revolvers have a THREE digit prefix.

I -suppose- you could carry around a set of calipers and physically measure the cylinder to determine what frame it is, or you could look at the rear of the cylinder and see if the ratchet star boss is round or if it is scalloped between the teeth. Round = large frame, scalloped = medium frame.

Andy, show us the serial number prefix please, of YOUR gun, and also a photo of the cylinder from the rear showing the ratchet star.

to cover his BUTT in any event, they will only tell you their revolvers are safe with FACTORY ammo for the caliber mentioned. They won't acknowledge to the general public if they are safe with +p ammo, although there are two published accounts (by well known gun writers) of Ruger reps owning up to the fact that the medium frame guns ARE safe with +p loads. Those would be Brian Pearce and Jeff Quinn.

[Tackleberry41]

Yes and as the OP said, it doesnt have a 2 digit or 3 digit prefix, so would need some other way to say one way or another. That scalloped or non scalloped ratchet on the cyl would give a clue.

[opos]

If I'm not mistaken SAAMI does not list any +P 45 Colt in their "specs"...I know there are a number of "hot load" factory loads for things like the 380 that are called "380+P" but there is no SAAMI spec on a +P .380...I think it's like the 45 Colt. If I'm wrong please point me to the SAAMI spec that shows a +P in 45 Colt...I know about the "Ruger and Contender only loads"...I load 45 Colt a lot but I seriously doubt any firearms manufacturer will give the ok to shoot any ammo (factory or reloads) that is not SAAMI spec...regardless of the powder, bullet, etc manufacturers..think it's a matter of liability. I have, and shoot several "original" Vaqueros (there is no "old model" Vaquero) that are the large size model...I have read the literature, loaded the loads and my experience is that they might be fine for a while but I don't go over spec on anything much any more...especially with the lack of a SAAMI spec for the +P loadings (factory or handloads).

Got a friend that has a 45Colt lever gun...he spoke with the manufacturer about this very issue...the reply he got is "any factory ammo that is to SAAMI specs is fine for your gun"..he pushed the issue about the "+P loadings" and handloads and got an emphatic "any factory ammo that is to SAAMI specs is fine for your gun"...your mileage may vary.

[DougGuy]

If I'm not mistaken SAAMI does not list any +P 45 Colt in their "specs."

This is correct. They would never designate +P rating to a caliber that has so many old firearms chambered for it. They DO designate +P for the .45 ACP cartridge. The assumption that it is safe to use .45 ACP +P pressure in the medium frame .45 Colt chambered Rugers comes from the simple fact that cylinder wall thickness and cylinder dimensions are the same for either caliber. The tech was absolutely correct in the disclaimer he gave the OP over the phone about using +P in his .45 Colt, because the SAAMI +P specification does not exist for it.

Tackleberry41 I missed the part about special serial number - no prefix in the OPs post. Thank you for the clarification, and yes the ratchet star would tell you for sure which model the gun is.

[EOD3]

Just my .02 but I would NEVER fire a +P cartridge in such a beautiful revolver. A good cast bullet weighing in around 250+ grains at a modest velocity around 850 to 900 FPS will put an end to just about anything you might want to shoot with a revolver. If you just have to shoot +P, find someone that's tired of SASS and buy their old-model Vaquero or Blackhawk and blast away.

[pmer]

I think the other way to tell would be measuring the length and outside diameter of the cylinder. Maybe see if it falls in to the 2 or 3 digit prefix that way.

[Andy]

- pmer I did measure the cylinder, it conforms to the size specs for "old" "large frame" etc. listed in the gunblast article I linked above. If that article is correct in the specs listed, and measurement of those areas positively confirms "new" vs "old" then I am positive I have an "old" vaquero. I just didn't want to base that conclusion off one article.

- My understanding here is that it is not risky/careless/hard on equipment to load "ruger only" loads or "+P buffalo bore" in an old model vaquero, that that is normal safe practice for those firearms due to their much heavier construction. Didn't linebaugh's study on this say that there is still a 100% safety margin when taking these guns up to 30,000 psi? If anyone thinks this is foolish, please let me know why. Not trying to argue, just trying to learn. Everything I have read leads me to believe that this is absolutely safe and I just need to confirm I have the right type of vaquero.

Here is a picture of the cylinder where you can see the ratchet star. I didn't know that was an identifier, can someone post a pic or link to a comparison so I can see the difference?

Thanks,
Andy133670

[DougGuy]

Andy your cylinder is from a large framed Ruger. 30,000psi loads all day long if you want to.

Here is a comparison of the two cylinders showing the scalloped ratchet star of the smaller medium framed gun's cylinder, on the right.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Cylinders-Lg-Med_zpsoaou4f6e.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Cylinders-Lg-Med_zpsoaou4f6e.jpg.html)

[dubber123]

Neat identifier! I'll squirrel that away in the brain bank. You'll die of old age long before 30,000 psi loads wear a large frame Ruger out. A little oil fore and aft of the cylinder pin goes a long ways towards preventing wear.

[bigted]

your base pin is a shouldered pin [my "new vaquero" is not]

your grip frame is set up with the standard "old" style spring retainer [my "new vaquero" has the bulky lockable spring retailer].

I am betting your grips are slick sided inside [my "new vaquero" has the notched out section to clearance the huge lockable spring retainer].

this has been a good post for me as well as I now have several hints to look for when looking at vaquero's.

[Andy]

Thanks for all of the insights everyone, I am confident that I have an "old" large frame vaquero now. I learned some good stuff from this thread, thanks for helping me out.

doug, thanks for the comparison pics, that's a great thing to know.

[Lloyd Smale]

you most definitely have a large framed 45 there.