gotta ask for some advice on AR15 build

[cummins05]

ok guys/gals I need a little advice on my first ar-15 build. I understand the basics like building the lower and how to build an upper and all that type of stuff but here is my dilemma. I cant decide on a caliber I feel like there are too many and they all have something different to offer. I started out thinking I just had to have a 458socom or 450bushmaster but I feel I talked myself out of either of them due to the limit on distance. I would really like a 25x45 sharps but I am afraid in the end the small 223 case will become a limiting factor. I believe I talked my self into a 6.5grendel. so here is my questions. if you were going to build a decent AR for a likely 500 or less yard gun but wouldn't turn down the opportunity to shoot 1000 yards what caliber would you build? do you think there is much to gain in a billet upper or stick with a mill speced forged? last but probably not least who makes a decent affordable barrel. I see so many companies and I may end up with a shilen because I feel they make superior products and come with a matched bolt to the chamber.

thank you in advance.

[Mauser48]

I would go with the 25x45 sharps because of brass availability. It seems like a great round to me. 6.5 grendel is good but brass is hard to get. No need to spend the extra money on a billet upper or lower. I would definitely recommend a an aftermarket trigger. I believe the sharps barrel would be fine in the 18 inch barrel.

[Cmm_3940]

Is this your first AR, or just your first custom build? IMO, everyone needs at least one 5.56/.223. If you already have that covered, then I'd probably start with 300 AAC BO for the first custom build, simply due to the wider user base, and then move to the more exotic calibers on subsequent builds. That said, there is a definite coolness factor to the .458 and .450. :cool: 1000 yds. Is going to be challenging with anything I've seen that fits the AR-15 action.

[dkf]

If you want to shoot at 1000yds you are better off with a 7.62x51 or 6.5 creedmoor in an AR10 and it will obviously be better at 500yds too. In an AR15 sized rifle the 6.5 grendel would be one better suited for long range but to get the most out of it you want a barrel over 20" but even then the grendel does not have a lot of capacity for powder. I'd put more faith in a 243 WSSM but that cuts available barrels, uppers and etc down even further than the 6.5.

As far as receivers go if you want a precision AR it is good to spend the money on at least a decent upper receiver. Most of the milspec forged upper receivers have a sloppy barrel extension fit into the receiver which can degrade accuracy. It is best to have to heat the upper a little to expand it enough to slip over the barrel extension. The billet receivers from Santan, Mega and CMT are known to have tighter fits however BCM also has a forged upper receiver that they get machined to their specs with a tight fit on the barrel extension.

If you already shoot and reload .223/5.56 the 25x45 would make the most sense. It is not a 1000yd cartridge but really any AR15 cartridge is not what I would consider a 1000yd cartridge.

[BrianL]

If you already shoot and reload .223/5.56 the 25x45 would make the most sense. It is not a 1000yd cartridge but really any AR15 cartridge is not what I would consider a 1000yd cartridge.

I have been out of Highpower shooting for a year or five but wasn't the Army doing fairly well at 1000 yds with the .223 in Service rifle?

[Cmm_3940]

I have been out of Highpower shooting for a year or five but wasn't the Army doing fairly well at 1000 yds with the .223 in Service rifle?


The commonly-quoted effective range (not maximum) is 400-600 meters (547 yd. avg.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15 (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15) which doesn't mean an expert shooter with a great setup can't do better.

FWIW, I've read of people claiming accurate groups with 300 blackout at those ranges, although they admitted it was like shooting a mortar at that distance.

[M-Tecs]

I have been out of Highpower shooting for a year or five but wasn't the Army doing fairly well at 1000 yds with the .223 in Service rifle?

In the service rifle they had limited success. At one time the Army's 1,000 yard 5.56 service rifle load was so warm that the new LC brass had loose primer pockets after the first firing.

The 8 or 10 inch longer barrels on the match rifles helped but I gave up on mine as I never could be it to hold elevation as well as some other cartridges.

Some have had better results than I did.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2012/03/cartridges-223-for-palma-competition.html

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3785997.0

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?133575-223-AR-s-r-beating-308-1000-yds

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/05/223-remington-shooter-equals-gb-1000-yard-f-tr-record/

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=316965

[BrianL]

I remember the V-8 load being the hot ticket. Pierced primers and fried firing pins, pushing what was the edge of the technology back in the early 90's

[GabbyM]

My advise would be to build a 5.56mm chambered in 223 Wylde. Then if you want 1,000 yards build a bolt gun.

Sierra has some new ballistic tipped 69, 77 and 80 grain bullets advertised with very high B.C. for the 22's. Still not quite a 1,000 yard gun. But then neither is the 308 IMHO. 30-06 is more my idea of a long range rifle round.

[LynC2]

If you are looking for a longer range option, you might check out the 6mm Hagar and Hornady makes brass for it. Carl Bernosky seems to do very well with one at Camp Perry. Another option might be the 6mm AR.

[dkf]

In the service rifle they had limited success. At one time the Army's 1,000 yard 5.56 service rifle load was so warm that the new LC brass had loose primer pockets after the first firing.

Those must be over max pressures. The current M855A1 is a hot load also they are running it around 63,000psi last I heard. With the overgassed M4s the military likes to use I bet it is hard on them.

[Sticky]

500 to 1000yds with an AR, I'd go 308AR, not an AR-15. I have several, 223, 300aac and 308's. The 308 is my go to long range AR. The 223 will take out a groundhog head at 200-300yds, but not easy to do over 500.

[M-Tecs]

Those must be over max pressures. The current M855A1 is a hot load also they are running it around 63,000psi last I heard. With the overgassed M4s the military likes to use I bet it is hard on them.

Yep

http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=2387

In 1996, a monumental year for Black Hills Ammunition, they were awarded their first military contract for the Army Marksmanship Unit (AMU). At the request of LTC Mike Harris (ret), Black Hills bid on a contract for producing V8 load, which was an 80 grain OTM cartridge intended for single loading and shooting 600 yards during slow-fire competition. This cartridge was hand loaded by the AMU using Vitavouri powder. There was a catch; the load had to maintain velocity without exceeding SAAMI pressure. The actual specs for this round were impossible, there was no way to attain that velocity and keep the pressures within SAAMI specifications. Black Hills loaded the ammunition to the velocity specification using the best possible powders available at the time. They informed the Army who already knew of the situation and knew of this problem. However, the Army was happy Black Hills saved them 10,000 psi over the AMU hand loaded ammunition plus it gave them the required accuracy, resulting in Black Hills Ammunition’s first military contract.

[GabbyM]

I'll tell you what I put together this winter and am plum tickled with. This is a long post even for me. Coffee worked this morning.

Criterion 20", 223 Wylde chamber, Hybrid contour, 1:8".

Bushmaster Upper.

W.O.A. free float forearm.

Giselle SD-E trigger.

First off I wanted an AR to shoot many rounds before the bore gave out. So chrome line. Criterion says there process does not degrade accuracy. So far with 55 grain bullets it's pretty good. My thinking is after it sees several thousand rounds it will out perform any SS barrel that will be getting tired. This Criterion is the first barrel I ever owned that did not copper fowl. Never seen green color on a solvent patch. It’s a shooter. Wylde chamber because I don’t need any more NATO chambers with .227” throats.

The Bushmaster upper was just on sale at Brownells. It replaced one of those “Mil Spec” much hyped uppers from PSA. I tossed that one in the junk.

W.O.A. free float for the mandrel they use to attach the tube. I have one of the screw in types on another upper and the fine threads don’t do much for confidence in it’s ability to survive a bump. Plus it won’t screw on straight. I Like the WOA tube. All those free floats add about a pound to the rifle.

Geiselle two stage SD Enhanced trigger. Straight bow with a 1.2 lb second stage. It’s simply marvelous. Very light 2nd stage pull. Far to light for any LE work and a little light for a coyote rifle, which this is. It’s lighter than I set the adjustable on my bolt action varmint rifles.

I keep a Harris bi pod mounted onto the forearm. Long sitting position pod I’ve had for decades. It protrudes past the end of the 20’ barrel when folded. Height gets the muzzle up over top of grass and field stubble. Using a $3 nylon sling in union with pod. Usually sitting down calling coyote. So I target shoot the same way most often.

Purchased a large amount of Sierra 69 SMK’s and 65 SBT-GK. The game king soft nose shoot right with the match kings trajectory. Pushing them with Alliant AR-Comp and CCI-450 primers. I have total confidence in the GK bullet. Also like the 55 grain SBT-GK in my 12” twist AR. SMK’s do not expand and are not lethal at long range. Others have great results with 55gr V-Max. I bought some 53gr V-Max for my bolt gun. Very high B.C. but so far untested on any critters. Blitz type bullet have shown to be far to explosive for anything larger than a prairie dog. We horribly wounded an animal with a 55gr Blitz a couple months ago. 100 foot shot with no penetration.

I topped the barrel with a three prong flash hider that IMHO looks wicked sweet. Have a new Burris 3x9 with bullet drop dial to mount. When I want a lighter rifle to carry I grab my CZ-527 in 222 Rem. When I need a long range I have my 243 A.I. with 87gr V-Max and 6.5x20X scope. Very expensive per round to shoot. Short barrel life. Great 100 yard cast bullet shooter however.
　

I can’t say enough good things about that Criterion barrel. Hybrid contour gets it done. Don’t notice any barrel heat up issues. I have a SP-1 with Pencil barrel and it does heat up. As do the A-2 military barrel that aren’t any thicker than an A-1 where it counts. Just out past the sight for bayonet stiffness. Brownells has the straight taper match profiles but they are heavier too. I have a bull barrel that I simply loath carrying around. Green Mountain barrels are suppose to be good and are less expensive. They and Criterion make 20” A-1 profile barrels. One of those with a standard military forearm and you’d have a 6 ½ to 7 pound rifle. My A-1 shoots about 1 ¼ inch for five shots at 100 yds. You can’t sling it or POI shift about 4 MOA. It’s set up for night hunting with an ACOG. It's about as accurate day or night as I can shoot from position.

D&H magazines from Wideners are excellent. For $6.50 each I bought enough to shoot all day and not load a mag. Also like Magpul.

[Dhammer]

Brownell's is now selling the Saturn? 6.5 Grendel barrels and runs some good sales. Guy's on Grendel forums have been having good luck with them. The other big gun parts supplier has been selling them for a long time too. Sounds like the manufacture got all the kinks worked out. Because the attitude has changed towards em. The sales with the bolt included will be hard to beat.

I have been torn, between going that route or moving up to a premium barrel for my build. One of benefits of the Grendel is it's a caliber you can go to a fun show and buy bulk plinking ammo for.

I have built several AR's. I do like, billet/billet sets. Weight ads up fast, I got one I'm afraid to even weigh between that and the barrel. Lots of very accurate AR's have been built on forged upper/lower combos.

Starting out my 6.5 with the, I want to keep it light for hunting purposes and know I don't want to comprise on barrel lengths by going short. So its a forged upper/lower and few other parts sitting in my safe. Looking at a few very light quadrails but haven't made my mind up on that yet.

Be careful getting caught up in names alone. We put toegehter a build for my buddy with spike's lower/PSA blem upper, tuned n polished mil spec trigger with a quality barrel. Then he did one over the top on parts and barrel. He goes out and shoots with his buddy who only buys outrageously priced Noveske's and forget other name. He gave him grief for not buying what he had said. He wasn't too happy at the end of the day that both rifles out shot his and even the over the top cost less. Research is key.

[Jupiter7]

If cost isn't an issue, in the ar15 platform, 6.5 grendel outperforms them all. Very simple as it has highest BC, it competes with the .308 service round and leaves the other ar15 cats in the dust after 400yds. If hunting wasn't a primary concern, the high BC 75/77grn 224 bullets are very capable of 500yds. If 1000yds was really in the plans, 2 rounds really comes to mind in an Ar308, 260remington and 6.5creedmoor. Sometimes you gotta pay to play, the long range game is one of those area where cheap doesn't get you the best results.

[dkf]

The .243wssm and .25wssm have more balls than the 6.5grendel. http://www.dtechuppers.com/ar-15-wssm-upper-receivers.html

[TCLouis]

+1 what dkf said above

[Motor]

The commonly-quoted effective range (not maximum) is 600 meters (547 yd.) which doesn't mean an expert shooter with a great setup can't do better.

(600 meters is 657 yards)

FWIW, I've read of people claiming accurate groups with 300 blackout at those ranges, although they admitted it was like shooting a mortar at that distance.

Just a little correction. :)

[Cmm_3940]

Just a little correction. :)
Corrected above.