cast boolits wondering off left?

[bigted]

so I posted this query on another post but It was a bit off topic so thought id get better response with a post about it specifically.

I have gotten back into shooting handguns again and till now I was just satisfied with the results of my cast boolit performance.

what I have noticed is that when I shoot my Colts SAA with my cast boolits ... or factory wadcutters ... they print off to the left around 2 inch for my 5.5 SAA. a bit less with the 7.5 inch SAA Colt. however when I loaded some jacketed to try thru it [the 357 in 5.5 inch] they just printed rite to point of aim as pretty as you please.

now thinkin I had not juiced em up enough [my cast boolits] I loaded some with 13.5 grains of 2400 powder and all I accomplished was to lower the point of aim around 3.5 inch below POI and still over to the left the 2 inch.

so do any of you get this same result and if so ... what is the cause? don't make sense to me that the lead cast boolits would wonder horizontally ... I understand the vertical but cant seem to wrap me brain round the thing that I find happening to me with these cat boolits.

always before I had adjustable sights and just compensated the sight for them and I always shot cast but now I see an anomaly that I can now explain.

thanks for the thoughts and ideas all! ... :drinks: ...

[DougGuy]

Simple. Dwell time in the barrel. This would be my explanation. Even though my Rugers do the same thing with cast and j-words, they shoot to different points of aim.

When you fire the gun, it recoils upward and twists to the left becasue of the torquing motion of the boolit picking up it's spin when it hits the right hand twist rifling. The boolit is simply staying in the muzzle longer, and causing the gun to twist more and it hits a different point of impact because j-words don't stay in the barrel as long as the cast boolits, and they don't torque the gun in the shooter's hands as rapidly as cast boolits do.

[ejcrist]

Gosh, I never thought of that. I had the same thing happen to me a long while back with an Uberti fixed sight 44 Special. Like bigted, it didn't make any sense to me. Thanks for the info DougGuy. I mean Dr. DougGuy.

[bedbugbilly]

Please don't take this the wrong way as I don't intend it to be offensive . . .

I shoot a lot of SAA. What has already been said does make sense.

But, there are a lot of other things that could be affecting it as well.

"operator error"? Are you using a consistent hold each time? Are you concentrating on the target and not anticipating recoil or are you squeezing the trigger consistently? I once had this problem show up and I discovered that a change in the way I was squeezing the trigger (on a Ruger NV) was causing me to actually "twist" a minute amount which was enough to cause me to hit left.

Another is your sight picture - a lot of Colts and clones don't have the best sight picture to begin with - a variation in the thickness of the front sight along with the groove width in the top of the frame - or with a C & B, using the hammer notch as the rear sight can really pose a problem. The typical SAA was not considered a "target" revolver so unless you have precision adjustable target sights . . . a very few thousands of the front sight off to the left in the sight picture can multiply in to inches at a distance.

Not saying any of these things are the problem but there is a lot to consider. In the day when a man shot just one revolver . . . he became accustomed to it and the "quirks" it had. Today, we switch off form one revolver to another (at least I do) so you are not consistently shooting the same revolver all the time. And, as with any SAA . . . you have to learn a little "Kentucky windage" depending on what load you are shooting.

Good luck and if you figure it out, I'd like to hear what you come up with. All of us that shoot SAA can learn from it. :-)

[bangerjim]

Usually when my boolits go to college, read the NYTimes, and watch MSNBC, they tend to wander to the LEFT. I read them the gospel acording to Ronald Regan, and they straighten up and fly RIGHT.

banger-j

[johnson1942]

just want to know for my own info. are the cast bullets the same length as the jacketed ones? over all length and bearing surface length? thanks

[doc1876]

Try this, I probably got it here on Cast Boolits.

[.22-10-45]

sent off a 2nd. gen Colt 7 1/2 .38 Spec. basket case..first to Hamilton Bowen for action work & tuning/sight regulation..then on to Turnbulls for his magic. When I first started shooting it, I did as I usually did for my S&W revolvers..front of frame resting on sandbags..or gun out in front with wrists supported. Every load I tried shot way low & left..I'm talking right at the lower left corner of 4' high cardboard backer! Almost resorted to file..and then thought about returning to Bowen...when the o'l light bulb finally flickered on. Remembered Colt never designed these for rest shooting..Cowboys sure didn't carry sandbags! so I stood on my hind legs and shot like a man!..and nearly every previous "worthless" load was shooting to point of aim with perfect windage! Now on some, I do note a tendency to impact to left..as range increases, but as bedbugbilly pointed out..these wern't target revolvers..though with their hard to see sights they do pretty darn well!

[EDK]

Cowboy Action shooters say "VAQUERO is spanish for low and left." Fixed sight guns can be interesting. Luckily I've only got one that someone over did the filing for elevation...probably why I got it so cheap.

[phonejack]

Hmmm, dwell time, this probably explains why my J frame low velocity loads aren't centered horizontally. Never considered that ! I also need to face a mirrow and see if I "cant " the pistol. That will have an effect on horizontal Impact also.

[JSH]

Dwell time is my thoughts also. I have shot very very few FLGC bullets in revolvers let alone rifles in the past few years I couldn't tell you what any of my new to me wheel guns are doing. My shooting buddy is left handed and we have different windages for each other's guns that we swap back and forth.
To the OP I don't recall it being in common for a different POI when going from cast to jacketed or vise versa. Saw a similar thread a while back. Gent had same weight bullets, group was moving. IMHO bearing surface imparts more or less torque, changing POI. Just make a not a me twist those little screws on the back of the rig, providing it is an adjustable sight rig.
Jeff

[44MAG#1]

Hold 2 inches to the right.

[Forrest r]

Lube is another thing to look at. Dwell time is more of a vertical thing unless you have a weak grip & the pistol is turning in your hand. I doubt this is happening because you're not having the same problem with jacketed bullets.

Take the same cast/lubed bullet and coat it with bearing grease and see if the groups move. Then try wd-40 on the same cast/lubed bullet. You'll end up with 3 different points of aim. One from the standard cast/lubed bullet, another from the bearing grease and a 3rd (usually the worst groups) from wd-40.

Some firearms do this worse than others. Had a 4"dw bbl that was consistently 3" to 4" to the left when I shot cast bullets compared to jacketed bullets. The 1st time I tried a pc'd cast bullet in that bbl my jaw dropped!!! The pc'd bullets had the same poa as jacketed bullets.

Just something to try or think about, a different lube might help.

[bigted]

guess I don't know what a "pc'd" boolit is ... probably be embarrassed when you say im guessing.

I hold the revolver the very same each time. hense the jacketed bullets being in a small hole in the middle of POA.

I would "buy" the torque or dwell time if the jacketed bullets did what they do and the cast going the same speed doing something completely different. I do understand this as I have shot a lot of BPCR with my cast boolits and the speed do make a diff in where the boolit hits according to POA. however I have never had them group left or right as a result of this unless I have gripped the weapon differently ... which I try to sort out rite away as I do know that if the HOLD on the revolver or rifle is different shot to shot ... then patterns evolve instead of groups.

so even if the jacketed and cast are the same weight and going at the same speed ... the cast will always tend to "dwell" longer in the barrel ... this I cant put my hand on as if they are the same speed from firing to exit as each other ... there should be no difference in the time spent in the barrel ... unless I am missing a point here [which is entirely possible].

and yes ... I have tried the "hold off" and it works well. which do not tell me the why of it. I get good groups with the cast boolits ... just in a different zip code as the jacketed groups are.

thanks for all the great input ... keep sending it till I finally get it thru my frozen brain ... LOL

[Garyshome]

You fellas know too much about this stuff!

[bangerjim]

guess I don't know what a "pc'd" boolit is ... probably be embarrassed when you say im guessing.

I hold the revolver the very same each time. hense the jacketed bullets being in a small hole in the middle of POA.

I would "buy" the torque or dwell time if the jacketed bullets did what they do and the cast going the same speed doing something completely different. I do understand this as I have shot a lot of BPCR with my cast boolits and the speed do make a diff in where the boolit hits according to POA. however I have never had them group left or right as a result of this unless I have gripped the weapon differently ... which I try to sort out rite away as I do know that if the HOLD on the revolver or rifle is different shot to shot ... then patterns evolve instead of groups.

so even if the jacketed and cast are the same weight and going at the same speed ... the cast will always tend to "dwell" longer in the barrel ... this I cant put my hand on as if they are the same speed from firing to exit as each other ... there should be no difference in the time spent in the barrel ... unless I am missing a point here [which is entirely possible].

and yes ... I have tried the "hold off" and it works well. which do not tell me the why of it. I get good groups with the cast boolits ... just in a different zip code as the jacketed groups are.

thanks for all the great input ... keep sending it till I finally get it thru my frozen brain ... LOL

"PC'd" = powder coated. Where 'ya been for the past couple years? Biggest technology to hit the shooting venue since the invention of lead. :bigsmyl2:

No grease required. No leading left in barrel.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Big Ted: It is pretty obvious to me that you are not holding your mouth right.

Adjust and get back to us.

Randy

[Hardcast416taylor]

I was introduced to this "quirk" while being allowed to shoot a buddy`s Fathers 2nd generation Colt SAA .45 Colt about 50 years back. Thanks for the return memories of those times.Robert

[bigted]

"PC'd" = powder coated. Where 'ya been for the past couple years? Biggest technology to hit the shooting venue since the invention of lead. :bigsmyl2:

No grease required. No leading left in barrel.
i
been under a snow drift in Alaska for 15 yrs. guess I did know about the powder coated boolits but just have not gotten there yet. this is prolly another thread but I would like to know what is involved in this procedure.

[DrCaveman]

There's a whole subforum on pc'ing, ive never done it but it has a lot of appealing factors. Most of the traditionalists seem to have no need or interest in it, so i stick with them for now.

My colt SAA clone hits left always, and low with stout loads. All with cast boolits, no jacketed have been loaded to compare. Id like to try it to compare to your results. I could sacrifice 40 hornady 230 xtp hp's for that, may find a sweet camp defense load.

I was reading the following link just now. Probably not needed for you, based on your recent posts, but some others may find the info helpful. I keep it bookmarked

https://canadianshooter.wordpress.com/trigger-finger/

[Airman Basic]

Try this, I probably got it here on Cast Boolits.

I like this one, too.

[Patrick56]

If you did your shooting outdoors, I would say that the sun caused it.

[bigted]

in fact I did shoot in the sunshine ... but I also shot the jacketed bullets about 3 minutes before shooting the cast boolits. also there is the "they always print left" thing.

I do concur with the rotational thrust maybe having some influence on impact. but thing I don't get is ... speed being equal ... do the cast boolits grip the lands and grooves that much more solidly then the corresponding jacketed bullets do ... and if this is so ... then the jacketed bullets must allow either stripping in the rifling or gas bypass [gas cutting] and if this is so ... I then would wonder about copper deposits in the grooves of the rifling.

I could very well go mad trying to wrap my poor noggin round this little phenomenon. suffice it to say that this is a very interesting subject and I do not tire in the puzzle being set forth.

[lbaize3]

I always sight my pistols from a rest before I start shooting without a rest. If I am not hitting where I did with the rest, I start looing at how I am holding the pistol. The first thing I look at when my pistol starts shooting left is where my trigger finger is placed on the trigger. If I am hitting left consistently I can be almost sure I am just putting the tip of my right index finger on the trigger and pushing the boolit to the left. I then try putting the middle of the pad of my index finger tip on the trigger and concentrate on not pushing to the left.

[bangerjim]

i
been under a snow drift in Alaska for 15 yrs. guess I did know about the powder coated boolits but just have not gotten there yet. this is prolly another thread but I would like to know what is involved in this procedure.

I hear 'ya brother! Lived in MI for over 12 years and had to plow may way down my 300ft driveway almost every other day in the winter. The year we left I had a pile of snow over 10 feet high where I would take a running shove at a plow full. Ran out of places to pile the darned stuff!

for the past 30 years I have been busy shoveling sunshine in the winter!!!!!

Check out the powder coating thread! Cool stuff.

banger-j

[bigted]

I always sight my pistols from a rest before I start shooting without a rest. If I am not hitting where I did with the rest, I start looing at how I am holding the pistol. The first thing I look at when my pistol starts shooting left is where my trigger finger is placed on the trigger. If I am hitting left consistently I can be almost sure I am just putting the tip of my right index finger on the trigger and pushing the boolit to the left. I then try putting the middle of the pad of my index finger tip on the trigger and concentrate on not pushing to the left.

LOL ... I am not trying to be a snot here ... BUT ... I have repeatedly said ... "jacketed bullets print rite where I aim and cast boolits go left every time"

now there is science involved here and it has nothing to do with "how I hold the grip" ... or ... "where my finger lays on the trigger"

if indeed I had a bad handle on the revolver [same revolver now] ... then why is it that my jacketed loads printed in small groups rite where I aim and the cast boolits seem to group fine ... however the group is LEFT of where I aim'

again I do concede that I prolly am not the best revolver or pistol shot that ever walked ... however I have killed 1 deer at over 100 yards with open sights as well as some turkeys and grouse up closer ... so I must have a little bit on the ball as for how to shoot these short barreled weapons.

I do not mean to single out anybody in particular but rather set it rite on the fact that in a 15 minute time frame and shooting the same revolver ... the jacketed bullets shoot perfect while the cast boolits go left.

soooo. my question is set out again ... do the cast boolits grip the rifling harder and more positively then the jacketed bullets of the same weight and length of bore gripping surface? if there is fact to this ... I am interested in the why of the cast boolits torqueing the revolver enough to actually print the boolits off to the left while the jacketed bullets seem to not do this strange phenomenon.


also ... Badger ... shoveling sunshine in winter is WAYYYYY mo better. I am enjoying this weather very much. cant wait to see how hot THIS summer will get. and on that subject ... I now have the privilege of enjoying 4 seasons ... instead of winter and SHORT summer followed by WINTER again ... LOL.

thank you all for the interesting and educational thoughts ... even the "how do I grip and squeeze the trigger" as it made me revisit my grip and squeeze and ensure that it aint me ... that it in fact is the science that has me puzzled.

[44MAG#1]

Whenever one posts a question on a subject such as this, one is going to receive many responses that range from just a guess to an SWAG.
One must be able to take the answers that are given and roll with it.
It is my suspicion that one knows that they will get no definite answer to begin with.
Why one is experiencing this is interesting but with 2 pages of responses is one closer to the answer than before the time was taken to post the question?
Truthfully probably not.
That was why I made the response I did about holding 2 inches to the right. Simpler, no fuss no muss. My answer while simple Simon in nature was probably as accurate or more accurate than any of the others. Probably not the answer you wanted but a lot of good answers to things isn't what we want to here but good nonetheless.
Now take the information you already had (it is shooting a given amount left at a given range) and hold to compensate for it.
if you would put the energy into doing that rather than putting it into drivel that may be close to correct or so far off NASA couldn't land a space craft on it you would be better off.

[bigted]

boy ... awsome

[robertbank]

When you live on the Left Coast where else would yo expect them to hit!

Actually, all kidding aside I hade the same problem with my Beretta Stampede. I decided initially and for aboiut 8 years to just aim 2" right or place the front sight on the right side of the rear sight and that seemed to work but way annoying. I took the gun into my 'smith when I had all my revolver forcing cones cut to 11 degrees. I mentioned it to my 'mith the Stampede always shot left. He picked up the gun and said, "Hell Bob the front sight is bent slightly to the right". Sure enough the tip of the front sight was bent, probably from initial shipping from Italy. I just never noticed the slight bend at the tip. It may have been made that way for all I know. In any event he straightened the sight and it shoots POA now. Well at least where the gun is pointing when I pull the trigger. It frequently misses what I am aiming at but that is for another topic.

Take care

Bob
Ps Aim right

[bigted]

I ... in fact do just as you mention ... and woulda been very happy with this except for loading up some of those dang jacketed bullets. if I had gone blissfully along and stayed away from the scourge of the way expensive bullets ... all woulda been keen in my camp ... however I did load em ... and shoot the darn things ... so now I got this question roaming round in a nearly empty knoggin and there seems to be nuttin to be done about that ... [smilie=l:

my vaquero shoots a bit right of aim and I correct for it happily ... the 7.5 inch Colt commemorative shoots straight ahead ... and true to poa ... but around 5 or so inch high ... I just hold under the intended target and do well. :bigsmyl2:

BUT then I went and shot them nasty copper lookin things and now gotta mess in me knoggin. may never get to the bottom of the exact why of this ... but ... it will rattle round in there till I do find the answer ... maybe it already has been addressed ... but ... I guess im not done "putting it into drivel" quite yet ... which should be my prerogative as being a paying and supporting member here.

at any rate it be good fun and yet another tangle to twist some into apoplexy just reading about it. [my attempt to be funny here].

I do in fact know how to make my machinery work to expected levels of accuracy ... which in no way explains this newly found brain tease I have found to play with ... just maybe others have also wondered on the WHY of this thing ... I was blissfully unaware of it till I loaded them awful bullets ... :shock: ... shoulda known better.

[Virginia John]

There are so many things that can cause this that you need to scrutinize every aspect of your shooting, stance, grip, finger, sight, follow through, etc, etc. Just try one thing at a time until you unlock the secret.