slug load pressure signs??????

[brad2506]

im about to start loading the 12 gauge slugs'r'us SPW hammerhead slug (cast myself) with bluedot and the cheap winchester hulls (winner 2000 in australia)
this is about the only powder and hull i can consistently get.
my main question is slug'r'us list 40gn of bluedot as a starting load but no maximum, just a note saying you can go higher, so what signs do i look for to tell my ive gone far enough ??

im an experienced reload of rifle and pistol cartridges but never experimented with shotgun loads, the gun is the Harrington & Richardson USH.

[Cap'n Morgan]

There really are no good trustworthy pressure indicators when it comes to shotshell reloading. Unlike a rifle, you can't use primer flattening and head expansion. Once you start to see an imprint from the extractor profile on the base of the case... you are well over the SAAMI max of 11.500 psi for twelve gauge and it's time to back off a little. Not that your Harrington & Richardson can't take it - modern shotguns are extremely strong and it would probably take four times the max pressure before anything happened, but sometimes reloaded ammunition end up the strangest places and the next gun might not be as strong...

Not to worry, though. I believe you'll get real tired of the recoil long before you reach a critical limit [smilie=1:

A short article on shotgun pressures:
http://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/tom-roster/important-information-about-shotshell-pressures.html

[Hogtamer]

sticky or non-extractionis a big red flag....Stop!

[longbow]

What Cap'n Morgan and Hogtamer said.

If you are getting sticky extraction and/or seeing a bulge or imprint of the extractor in the case head... STOP right there! Do not shoot any more!

Also, in case you are not aware, shotshell reloading is a whole different animal than metallic cartridge reloading and you really need to follow published pressure tested load recipes. All the components work in harmony in shotshell reloading and what may seem like a simple change can result in dramatic changes in pressure up or down. I doubt I have to mention powder charge or type affecting pressure, but a primer change from one "209" brand to another can affect pressure by up to 3000 PSI. A change from a straight walled hull to tapered (compression formed) can also increase pressure dramatically.

Not to say that you cannot make substitutions but you do need a starting point and you do need to know what the substitution may affect.

If you have a load generating 8000 PSI and you put in a different (hotter) primer that load may go to 11,000 PSI so should still be safe but if the load was generating 11,000 PSI to begin with it is a different matter.

If a load recipe calls for a Federal Gold Medal hull (straight walled large volume hull) and you substitute a Winchester AA hull pressure will increase due to less volume.

I note that the load data I downloaded some time ago for Hammerhead slugs lists 42 grs. of Blue Dot for 12 ga. 2 3/4" loads but also specifies Cheddite straight walled hulls.

The current load data lists 40 grs. of Blue Dot but also says "Always us straight walled hulls" and with the recommendation to use Cheddite hulls.

Play but pay safe!

Longbow

[brad2506]

yep thanks fellas,
my biggest hurdle is getting a consistent quantity of a known shell.
i cant buy new primed or unprimed shells in australia so need to rely on once fired hulls i can collect.
ive been searching desperately for un-primed cheddite hulls in the US but can only find primed, im now looking to get someone in america to deprime and post to australia for me.

[cpileri]

Back when Ajay (VDOMemories) used to post here, he said that when working up a load, he uses softer shells like Cheddite and Fiocchi. As soon as he saw an extractor mark, he would stop; back off a grain, and switch to Federal hulls and consider that his top load. This does depend on the gun, as some have alot of space for the case head to "flow" into the extractor, and will do so even w loads within pressure spec. whereas some guns will not flow even w loads way over max.
Ajay's method is a way to do it, but the best advice by far is that if you are getting pressure signs, you have already passed the safe stopping point!
C-

[cpileri]

Are you saing that you CAN get once-fired (but primed, though expended) Cheddite hulls? If so, just de-prime them.

Otherwise, is there an importer who can get you the hullls you need/want?

Or, is it legal to export hulls from US to Australia?

C-

[brad2506]

Are you saing that you CAN get once-fired (but primed, though expended) Cheddite hulls? If so, just de-prime them.

Otherwise, is there an importer who can get you the hullls you need/want?

Or, is it legal to export hulls from US to Australia?

C-

it is not illegal to export fired or un-primed hulls from US to AUS its just impossible to find any for sale by a company who could be bothered to ship them.
none of the gunshops can get them for me from any of their distributors.
i can only get what i can buy live and fire or pull apart, which means i need to shoot 3" shells to cut the crimp of to get a decent length hull. one of the problems is i dont shoot that much shot so hard to collect enough shells and then its hard to know what type the shell is ?

[longbow]

Not positive on shotgun hulls but it is certainly illegal to export brass or any other reloading supplies, including cast boolits, from the US unless you have an FFL.

There do seem to be some exceptions with regards to shotgun ammunition/components but I would be checking first. It would not do to get on the wrong side of Homeland Security.

I used to buy my reloading supplies just across the border in Washington but 911 put a stop to that. I can legally import into Canada but as a non-citizen I cannot be in possession of or export ammunition or reloading supplies from the US. Even US citizens require the FFL to export any ammunition or reloading components.

Longbow

[brad2506]

Not positive on shotgun hulls but it is certainly illegal to export brass or any other reloading supplies, including cast boolits, from the US unless you have an FFL.

There do seem to be some exceptions with regards to shotgun ammunition/components but I would be checking first. It would not do to get on the wrong side of Homeland Security.

I used to buy my reloading supplies just across the border in Washington but 911 put a stop to that. I can legally import into Canada but as a non-citizen I cannot be in possession of or export ammunition or reloading supplies from the US. Even US citizens require the FFL to export any ammunition or reloading components.

Longbow

ballistic products say they are fine to send shotgun components, just nothing live or explosive and unfortunatly they dont have any virgin un-primed hulls ?

[MT Chambers]

The method used to check for over pressure in shotshells is to see if the primer pocket has expanded enough to alter the primer seating pressure. The primer pockets will open up a bit with cases that have been reloaded many times, but if you have only loaded them once or twice an expanded primer pocket means that you are at or over the line!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I imported Magtech brass cases (unprimed) from the US to the UK, where they are uncontrolled. Buffalo Arms said they were allowed to export shotgun but not rifle or pistol brass.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The method used to check for over pressure in shotshells is to see if the primer pocket has expanded enough to alter the primer seating pressure. The primer pockets will open up a bit with cases that have been reloaded many times, but if you have only loaded them once or twice an expanded primer pocket means that you are at or over the line!

Finding that happening is pretty good evidence that something is amiss, but not finding it happen isn't evidence that you are all right. It is at its best when comparing a known safe load with another one, in the same components and the same gun.

[FullTang]

I have a 12 g H&R Tracker II (a much lighter version of the USH) and this may be one of the few shotgun designs where you can see useful pressure signs. The Tracker has a spring-loaded ejector, and it's very sensitive to sticking with overpressure---there is a little space around it for the case head to expand into. Just as Ajay suggested, thinner Fiocchi and Cheddite hulls are most sensitive to this effect---never see it with Rem Gun Clubs, for example, or even the heavier premium Fiocchi hulls like the Golden Pheasant. Hotter (and perhaps too hot) loads will just stick in the chamber after firing, and need to be tapped out with a rod, whereas the same hull with a known load within SAAMI limits will fly right out.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Back in the 60s or 70s Gough Thomas, the British gun writer, described a idea a friend of his had used. He had turned two round pieces of steel in the lathe, with tiny interlocking grooves. They could be used to stamp tiny circular ridges on a piece of very thin brass sheet (or thick foil), which could still be placed between case head and breech face of a reasonably headspaced shotgun. He could get a estimate of pressure by observing how close those ridges came to being squashed out of existence.

A slightly less long time ago I experimented with transverse and parallel ridges, done by grooving the pieces of steel with a hammer-checkering file, ad coffee-can aluminium foil. The results did indeed look useful, but of course there are more variables in such a experiment than you can shake a stick at, most notably headspace. I can't see anyone, ever, reliably translating the results into pressure figures. But for a known safe load and an unknown one, with the same components in the same gun, it should be a very useful angle-of-eyebrows guide as to whether you are staying within sensible limits.

[longbow]

Here is the info I was given:

133495
It may not be up to date now and this one doesn't mention reloading components, just firearms and ammunition. I did see a document that specifically stated that unloaded brass and bullets could not be exported without an FFL but do not seem to have a copy. My understanding is that shotgun wads are exempt but I did not think hulls were.

In any case, if BPI has an FFL which they probably do then they should be able to export.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

Not to change the subject, but do you have the sabots they sell for the hammerhead slugs? I doubt just any old wad will work. BTW, the cheapola winnie hulls load fine with the right components. Fit is critical though. Also, there are still some of the Active hulls out there which are all plastic when deprimed. They are still among my favorites. Load 'em like federals as they are straight walled. if you could find some on the net don't you have need of some plastic drip irrigation regulators?

[longbow]

Brad:

Have you tried Will Bilozir yet? He is a BPI distributor in Canada. I have had good service from him in the past.

Longbow

[Apocalypse]

BPI told me they will ship nothing to Canada, even books. I thought that was an error but didn't push it. Bilozir is grossly overpriced IMO (probably with good reason) and does not offer any of the package deals that BPI does (roll crimp kits etc), so I am waiting for the exchange to be more reasonable before making an order. May be waiting a long long time.

[longbow]

Yes, I just got a response from BPI (US) and was told that they will not ship even wads to Canada anymore. So much for that.

I have a friend that owns a local gun store and he tells me stories of trying to get gun parts out of the States now... very difficult and very expensive.

I haven't ordered anything from Will in quite some time but his service was certainly good last time I did and I do not recall prices being out of line. However, I guess whatever he is charging is what I will be paying.

Oh, and I guess I owe Brad2506 an apology. I was thinking of someone else in Canada not Australia when I said to try Will Bilozir for BPI stuff. OOPS!

Longbow

[Dthunter]

BPI told me they will ship nothing to Canada, even books. I thought that was an error but didn't push it. Bilozir is grossly overpriced IMO (probably with good reason) and does not offer any of the package deals that BPI does (roll crimp kits etc), so I am waiting for the exchange to be more reasonable before making an order. May be waiting a long long time.

I just recieved an order from BPI last week. I picked up all the loading tools required for slug reloading. (No loading components though) No issues at all Getting it over the border.

[Apocalypse]

Picked it up as in went to the USA and exported it yourself?