Inherited my Dad's 30-30....

[dlbarr]

....a Marlin 336. No, Dad's not gone but he'll be 90 this month and not going to shoot anymore. He brought it to me about a year ago.

None of my sons or I can get this gun to shoot consistently. Factory rounds don't shoot particularly well. My reloads which are: LEE 309-170 GC bullet & 25gr of 3031 don't shoot well either. He hadn't shot it for quite awhile & I thought maybe it got some rust in the rifling but it certainly looks good to me. Anyone have an observation about what I might try next?

[sthwestvictoria]

Muzzle Crown ok?
no obvious bore bulges or rings?
sighting system solid?
Are projectiles shooting some sort of group or really obviously unstable like yawing with oblique impacts?

[freebullet]

What are you sizing at?

[dlbarr]

Muzzle Crown ok?
no obvious bore bulges or rings?
sighting system solid?
Are projectiles shooting some sort of group or really obviously unstable like yawing with oblique impacts?

No apparent problems here. The shots are all over the place, but bullets are not tumbling or anything like that.


What are you sizing at?

I am not sizing these bullets. Not discounting that, but I don't size my 45/70 bullets either that I shoot out of my 1895. One difference besides caliber is that the 30-30 has the micro groove rifling, the 45/70 has ballard. Don't know if that has any significance..

[TXGunNut]

Take a look at the NOE Ranch Dog 311-165 boolit. Michael (Ranch Dog) developed this design for the unique demands of Marlin rifles and the large meplat makes it a great hunting design as well.

[str8shot426]

I have good luck with that boolit in my 336. Try a different powder and work it up. You will find something it likes. Given there are no issues with the rifle.

[OverMax]

Frankly I'm more into winchesters than Marlin. But are you absolutely sure the old timers rifle is a 30-30 and not a 32-Special?
As I recall Marlin 30-30s do require at least a .310 cast usually to snug up against that micro grove rifling of there's.

Your next step. Scaling!!> powder weight changes> Min to Max. 3 to 5-rd made up for each powder weight change. Sooner or later you'll find its sweet spot with that effort.

[aspangler]

If you have a scope on it, check it out. It may have a broken crosshair that is moving around on you. That would account for what you are describing. I had one do that to me. Couldn't hit a bull in the you know where until I replaced the scope.

[JSnover]

Check the rifle for loose screws or other parts that may be worn/loose/damaged.

[TXGunNut]

Check the rifle for loose screws or other parts that may be worn/loose/damaged.

Good point. Start with a thorough cleaning and a good visual check. If it has a scope may want to swap it with a known good scope.

[kungfustyle]

I just went through this with my Mossberg 30-30. Shoot 1 round and let it cool. Repeat! Take some other guns with you to entertain while you do it but it works. Was driving me crazy, I would get a load that would shoot fantastic only next trip be all over the place, but would shoot great once the barrel heated up. So, Slow way down and shoot, cool and repeat. And see if that helps. You can fire like three at a time but it takes longer to cool in between.

[kungfustyle]

Great advice from others too.

[TCLouis]

One load with one powder is not a test for precision.

I had a 8X57 that one grain of powder difference went from really good group to scattered all over the 8.5X11 target sheet.

Thorough cleaning fore shooting the cast?
How about boolit diameter?

So many variables still left untested it seems.

[dlbarr]

Frankly I'm more into winchesters than Marlin. But are you absolutely sure the old timers rifle is a 30-30 and not a 32-Special?
As I recall Marlin 30-30s do require at least a .310 cast usually to snug up against that micro grove rifling of there's.

Your next step. Scaling!!> powder weight changes> Min to Max. 3 to 5-rd made up for each powder weight change. Sooner or later you'll find its sweet spot with that effort.

Yes, I am certain it's a 30-30. I gave it to Dad for his 65th birthday.


If you have a scope on it, check it out. It may have a broken crosshair that is moving around on you. That would account for what you are describing. I had one do that to me. Couldn't hit a bull in the you know where until I replaced the scope.

No scope, aperture sight & front blade...shooting results at only 50 yds.


Check the rifle for loose screws or other parts that may be worn/loose/damaged.

Again, this rifle has seen so little action ever...Dad always wanted a 30-30 for the nostalgia of it but hardly ever shot this gun. It was almost like new condition when he turned it over to me last year.


I just went through this with my Mossberg 30-30. Shoot 1 round and let it cool. Repeat! Take some other guns with you to entertain while you do it but it works. Was driving me crazy, I would get a load that would shoot fantastic only next trip be all over the place, but would shoot great once the barrel heated up. So, Slow way down and shoot, cool and repeat. And see if that helps. You can fire like three at a time but it takes longer to cool in between.

OK, I'll give this a try.

[williamwaco]

My 336 liked the Lyman 31141.
Your Lee bullet is a virtual clone of that Lyman mold.
Size it .311 and lube with 50/50 allox/beeswax.

Mine liked 26 grains 3031.
With a Williams 5D receiver sight, it would put them all in a three inch circle at 100 yards.

Your barrel has had about a zillion jacketed bullets through it.
Be sure it is cleaned until there is no more copper fouling in there.

Use a bore solvent that specifically targets copper and clean it until there is no blue/green on your patches.
PS: If you use a bronze brush you will never get a perfectly white patch but it will still be clean enough.

[dlbarr]

My 336 liked the Lyman 31141.
Your Lee bullet is a virtual clone of that Lyman mold.
Size it .311 and lube with 50/50 allox/beeswax.

Mine liked 26 grains 3031.
With a Williams 5D receiver sight, it would put them all in a three inch circle at 100 yards.

Your barrel has had about a zillion jacketed bullets through it.
Be sure it is cleaned until there is no more copper fouling in there.

Use a bore solvent that specifically targets copper and clean it until there is no blue/green on your patches.
PS: If you use a bronze brush you will never get a perfectly white patch but it will still be clean enough.

Well I doubt very much that Dad shot alot of j-bullets, as I indicated he hardly shot this gun at all. BUT, per your suggestion, I have used Barnes CR-10 (I think it is) and there is no trace of any lead or copper fouling. I also used the bronze brush, and you are also correct - cannot get a white patch out of it now but the bore shines as bright as can be. At least, this is in my estimation.

Guess I'll have to step up my reloading game and get some sizing dies as this is an area I haven't gone yet. Didn't really want to invest in a sizer per se....do I understand you can just buy the die(s) and install on your reloading press?

[freebullet]

Lee push thru dies are cheap. In my research I've found most claim the best luck with .310 followed by .311.

As others mentioned a different powder might be better. Everyone reports 2400 provides good results if you can find any.

If you can't get a clean patch the bore is not clean.

[bruce drake]

Buy a Lee Sizer die and you should be fine for an affordable sizer setup. Read up on Lee Alox lubrication and then match the bullet size to meet the Marlin Micro-groove barrel.

[williamwaco]

If you want to experiment with light loads with fast powder you can't beat Unique or Herco.

My TC 23" Heavy barrel does one to one and one quarter inches at 100 yards with your lee bullet and 9 grains Unique. Sized .311 and lubed with LLA.

[dlbarr]

Buy a Lee Sizer die and you should be fine for an affordable sizer setup. Read up on Lee Alox lubrication and then match the bullet size to meet the Marlin Micro-groove barrel.

Got a quick reference point or link to proper bullet sizes for M-G barrels? I do have some LLA in my reloading cabinet.


If you want to experiment with light loads with fast powder you can't beat Unique or Herco.

My TC 23" Heavy barrel does one to one and one quarter inches at 100 yards with your lee bullet and 9 grains Unique. Sized .311 and lubed with LLA.

I have plenty of Unique but no 2400 as mentioned by someone else.

[truckjohn]

Definitely scope it and try it out again....
It's not uncommon for Marlin lever actions to shoot well under 1 moa....

Have you tried out the Hornady Lever Evolution ammo?

Thanks

[dlbarr]

Definitely scope it and try it out again....
It's not uncommon for Marlin lever actions to shoot well under 1 moa....

Have you tried out the Hornady Lever Evolution ammo?

Thanks

Not in the 336 yet.

I have used the LE ammo in my 1895 45/70.

[mattw]

I would go with a little slower powder and try it again with a Lyman 311041. Try 4895 short cut or 4831.

[bruce drake]

type micro-groove and lee alox in the search window...

[kenyerian]

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC311165RF/data/selection.html Have had good luck following RanchDog's suggestions.

[725]

Have had the same problem. Clean the dickin's out of it to remove copper. You might also want to tear it down (remove the bolt, forearm, etc. just to check it all out. I did and found that the barrel, which screws into the receiver, was so loose that I could unscrew it by hand. That is not conducive to accuracy. It actually woobled when I messed around with it. I still have not decided what to do about it, but I'm thinking of soldering it in the threads to firm it up. Marlin won't even talk to me about it.

[Foto Joe]

Since you mentioned that you aren't sizing may we assume that you are also not using gas checks? If this is the case then that may well be one of your issues.

I've been working up loads for both a Henry and a Marlin 30-30 for the better part of the last year shooting a Lyman 311041 sized .310 with gas check. The powder chosen as well as the charge has a lot to do with where the boolit lands. Someone mentioned Lever Revolution, I had zero success with that one but your mileage may vary. I finally settled on IMR 4227 or Win 748 with my favorite being the 4227.

[dlbarr]

FJ, I am using gas checks....I add a drop of loc-tite and press them on. This brings up a question about sizing - rather than buying a lube sizer, is it possible to operate a sizing die on a reloading press? Sorry for being naive about this, I am still fairly new to reloading. Up til now, I've pan lubed my bullets after sticking on the GCs as described.

725, I'll have to give it a once-over and be sure all is tight. Thanks for the tip.

[Kestrel4k]

I think that a relatively independent test with the Hornady LE ammo is a good idea.
I've never seen a gun (yet) that wouldn't shoot well with that.

[TXGunNut]

Yes, the Lee sizer screws into a standard loading press. I'd start out with a .311.

[dlbarr]

Yes, the Lee sizer screws into a standard loading press. I'd start out with a .311.

OK, thanks for that TX. Now here I go to embarrass myself...how does that work when you have a bullet you need to "size-up"? I have the Lee 309-170 and, as you suggest (like others have), with the micro groove rifling, .311 is a more appropriate diameter.

Does the sizer squash the bullet so it increases in diameter? Like I said, fairly new at reloading and never sized any bullets before. I've put together several reliable 45/70 loads but this 30-30 has been less cooperative. Thanks for your input.

[crazy mark]

Actually if you mike the boolit you might find it is at .310 or .311. If smaller than .309 then you got a bad mould as all the lee 30 cals I have usually drop .311 to .310 out of the mould from WW with a little 50/50 solder added. My micro groove barrels shoot just as good as my Ballard barreled ones. I use 3031, 748, 4198, unique, and have tried other powders with good luck. 3031 and 748 are my go to powders. One of my guns really like the lee FP boolits. Another likes the 311291 and 31141. I use gas checks as I do push mine fast for hunting.

[knifemaker]

You may want to slug the barrel and determine what is the barrel groove dia. and use cast boolits that are 1-2 thousand over the groove dia. I have seen those Marlin Micro-groove barrels with oversized groove dia in the past. I even ran across one in 44 mag caliber that had a groove dia of .431 at the breech end and .4325 at the muzzle end and found out why the owner sold me a almost new gun for such a reasonable price many years ago. That darn thing would not shoot any bullet with accuracy. I had Marlin replace the barrel with a new "ballard" rifle barrel to get it to shoot.

[Foto Joe]

Loctite, that's a new one for me. Keep in mind that if you're gas check isn't absolutely flush to a square base on the boolit you'll have serious accuracy issues. Although I'm sure that the Loctite will adhere the check to the base I'd venture to guess that it won't stay there long and might be coming off in flight or even before the boolit enters the bore for that matter disrupting the boolit as it travels downrange. Having said that, there are numerous folks who use aluminum checks that have a tendency to deploy after launch and claim no adverse issues.

Should you pick up a Lee push through sizer (they're inexpensive) then you'll no longer need to "glue" your gas checks into place. The push through sizer will crimp them on like they're intended. One of the things to keep in mind is the velocity which your boolit is traveling at. Personally I've had very poor luck with flat nose 30-30 boolits both in Henry and Marlin traveling faster than 1,900 fps. That's not to say that "you" can't make 'em zip down range faster than that though as there are people on this forum who have successfully pushed cast boolits to over 2,900 fps but not flat nose ones.

Your original post states that you're putting 25gr of 3031 under the boolit. Hodgdon's data states that 27.5gr provides 1,959 fps with a Sierra Flat Point which I'll assume is either jacketed or plated. If I had to guess I'd venture that your boolits are zooming down range at a pretty good clip probably well in excess of 1,800 fps. As you're finding out, pushing cast boolits out of gun, especially a rifle, is more of an art form than a science. Although I'm by no means an expert, I suspect that you're pushing your boolits too fast for the twist and the design of the boolit. Try the push through sizer by all means but don't expect it to be a cure, if it is then great but it will probably turn out to be just one key to the solution to the problem.

[Wayne Smith]

DL - let me correct your language and ideas. We size down, we swage up. Sizing with a sizing die is always making the boolit slightly smaller. Swaging, with a lead core in a jacket of some kind, is always compressing and increasing in size to maintain a tight grip of the core to the jacket.

Yes the Sierra flat point is a jacketed (cup and core) bullet. I agree with Joe, drop your charge back to or below 1800fps and you are likely to see greater success.

[dlbarr]

Ah-HA! Thanks for that clarification, Wayne.

OK, I will trim back that powder charge to something < 25gr...maybe 23ish?

[UBER7MM]

DLBarr,

How soft is your lead? You might test a softer lead for the microgroove barrel.

I hope this helps,

[dlbarr]

I don't know the soft/hard stats on my lead, UBER....it's all range scrap and I don't have a tester, so haven't a clue on that.

Like I said, I can put together several 45/70 loads that are consistently accurate using the same lead, some of the same options for powder etc. But the 30-30 has been challenging although I've gotten some good direction here which I will go to work with.

[w30wcf]

....a Marlin 336. No, Dad's not gone but he'll be 90 this month and not going to shoot anymore. He brought it to me about a year ago.

None of my sons or I can get this gun to shoot consistently. Factory rounds don't shoot particularly well. My reloads which are: LEE 309-170 GC bullet & 25gr of 3031 don't shoot well either. He hadn't shot it for quite awhile & I thought maybe it got some rust in the rifling but it certainly looks good to me. Anyone have an observation about what I might try next?

Do you know if your dad's Marlin was made before 1968? If so, micro-groove rifling was different than it is today. It had more grooves, 16 or 22 depending on the year, and the bore diameter's were larger .303-.305 vs .300-.301 after 1968.

A friend had a Marlin .30-30 made in 1960 (22 grooves / .304" bore / .3085" groove) and it did not shoot well with factory 150's but did ok with factory 170's. With the 311041 sized .310" (nose dia oversized @ .304" to fill the bore)and made from Linotype & gas checked, it did shoot some very respectable groups around 2" at 100 with 36 grs of H414 (2,000 f.p.s.).using a receiver sight.

"The cast bullet must fit the bore" as spoken long ago was very true in the case of that rifle.

w30wcf

[dlbarr]

Dad's Marlin was a 1984 edition according to the serial #1601xxxx.....

[w30wcf]

Running your bullets through a Lee .311" sizer will crimp the gas checks on. Even if the bullet is smaller than .311, the larger g.c. should cork things up. With the g.c. now assuredly staying with the bullet, hopefully things will improve.

I would also suggest positioning the 23/3031 to the back of the case for the best result. A 1" square of paper towel folded into a 1/2" square and placed on the top of the powder works well as does partially chambering a round then raising the muzzle momentarily and then closing the action when the muzzle is on the target.

w30wcf

[koger]

I would mount a good scope base, rings and scope Nikon etc, loctited with blue thread locker, and zero it. This will tell if it will shoot, clean the barrel good and use some good factory J bullets, this will give you something to judge by. A lot of micro groove barrels, if this is one, simply wont shoot cast. I had a .357 and 30/30 that would not shoot cast, but both were tackdrivers with jacketed slugs. That is why I posted that you need to scope it and use some good factory ammo, what it was designed to shoot, as a baseline to judge it by. If it does not shoot cast, stick with what works.

[John Boy]

Anyone have an observation about what I might try next? Clean It!