Ever ring a chamber with a "filler"?

[moredes]

I used to reload 45-70 with a smokeless powder that hardly filled the case. I can't remember what the powder was, but I think it was an IMR (DuPont) brand. I remember using Cream of Wheat to fill the case. It was recommended by another shooter. I never tested the load extensively, and got out of the 45-70 'game' very soon after that. I think I only tried 30 or 40 rounds with the "filler'd" rounds.

I've read just recently that filling a case can cause a phenomenon called "ringing" in a chamber. What is it, and how can I avoid it? I remember all kinds of substances were used for fillers--is it the substance that causes ringing, amount, or the practice of using 'filling' itself that is suspect?

Thank you.

[Bullshop]

What causes ringing is leaving air space between the filler and the boolit base.
BIC/BS

[longbow]

You will likely find a variety of opinions on fillers. Many swear by them and many at them. Fillers range from card wads to dacron puffs to cornmeal or Cream 'O Wheat.

I have used fillers with good success for many years in both straight wall cartridges (.45-70) and bottleneck (.303 British) both with fast and slow powders - all smokeless, I haven't used filler with BP. I generally use cornmeal or COW but have used card and fiber wads in straight walled cartridges. Never had a problem.

However, filler of any sort will raise pressures so you have to work loads up. Don't just go throwing filler into an already established load!

There also seems to be differing opinions on what causes ringing - when it happens - but I think Bullshop summed it up in saying that you don't want an air space between filler and boolit.

I've read reports of ringing with no air space but I think it is generally accepted that using a solid plug like a card wad and leaving an air space between that and the boolit base is bad. Don't do it.

Longbow

[405]

Never done it .... never want to!

It's my understanding that ringing the chamber is caused by the same thing that causes the more common bulge farther down the barrel from the bullet running into an obstruction.

Hatcher, et al did quite a bit of controlled testing of bore obstructions for the Army.... back in the day. Others likewise.

Findings by at least Hatcher..... the bullet runs into an obstruction somewhere in the bore. The bullet or the obstruction is compressed and obturates violently..... presto barrel bulge. If the collision is violent enough or the obstruction massive enough then a burst can happen. Some prior to that thought that the bulge was caused by compressed gas between the bullet and the obstruction... not so.... it is the obstruction itself or the nose of the bullet pressing outward.

In a cartridge/chamber the same thing can happen. The bullet is sitting there.... still. Another "bullet" or projectile in the form of a chunk or quantity of black powder or a wad or piece of compressed filler is rammed forward by the burning gas behind it. The "bullet" runs into the back of the regular bullet just sitting there and presto... a bulge or ring is formed just as in the case of the more common barrel bulge/bore obstruction.

In the case of black powder enough of the charge never consumes itself and retains enough incompressible solid mass even in the form of loose granules that it acts as a "bullet" in the above example.... so that is why a regular bullet is always pressed firm on top of a BP charge. The same thing would hold true with a smokeless load with a filler..... especially a hard fiber wad or quantity of cream o wheat, etc..... it needs to contact the base of the bullet.

[singleshotbuff]

While I prefer dacron, and use it exclusively when I DO use a filler, no matter the filler one rule applies. In my experience/opinion of course;

As stated above, LEAVE NO AIRSPACE BETWEEN THE FILLER AND THE BASE OF THE BOOLIT/BULLET. I believe this is the cause of most, if not all, cases of ringed chambers when using a filler.

When I use a filler, I put the powder into the case, then fill the case with enough dacron that the base of the boolit/bullet lightly compresses the dacron. This not only prevents ringing, it also prevents powder migration, in my experience.

On another note, I believe that fillers are best used with powders that give better than 50% loading density.

Hope this helps.

SSB

[MtGun44]

When I get super accuracy with Unique and zero filler in .45-70 and most
any other cartridge, I can't for the life of me figure out why I would go to
the trouble, expense, time and possible damage to the gun to fiddle with
various fillers. Not to step on toes, but I really don't understand what
the need is.

Bill

[Junior1942]

When I get super accuracy with Unique and zero filler in .45-70 and most
any other cartridge, I can't for the life of me figure out why I would go to
the trouble, expense, time and possible damage to the gun to fiddle with
various fillers. Not to step on toes, but I really don't understand what
the need is.

Bill+1. . . .

[HeavyMetal]

fillers can enhance the accuracy of a load. However I've seen / heard that fillers such a cow and cornmeal have one fault: they absorb moisture. This can create an issue with long term storage. This might contribute to ringing.

I will suggest an article that deals with fillers, in this case a plastic called Super Grex. Sadly Super Grex is no longer made but there are other plastic shot buffers on the market.

The article is in Handloaders Bullet Making Annual volume 1 and was written by Dave Scovill. This is dated 1990. If you can find a copy it's good reading.

[AZ-Stew]

This is one of the most consistently accurate threads I've seen on this forum. I've ringed the chamber of a Rem. 700 BDL 30-06 using a small piece of Dacron filler. I was following the directions I'd seen in either a cast bullet book or a magazine article (30+ years ago). It just didn't seem right to leave the dacron all fluffed out and kinda stuffed down into the case. I was certain the powder would invade the empry spaces between the dacron fibers, thus rendering the "filler" ineffective. So, I figured, it needed to be tamped down on the powder to keep it from moving around. (Go ahead, slap your forehead and roll your eyes.) The little, almost massless "bullet", as someone described it above, slammed into the base of my gaschecked bullet and ringed the chamber at that point. Doesn't take much.

I've taken to finding the slowest recommended powder for cast bullets in the cartridge I'm loading and using it to fill as much of the cartridge as possible. Yeah, I use more powder, but I don't need a filler and I avoid the possibility of overcharging with a fast powder.

YMMV.

Regards,

Stew

[calaloo]

There is a chapter in the book "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle" By Wayne Schwartz and Charles Dell which delves deeply into chamber ringing. Basically they agree with the statements above. By the way this book is well worthing owning. It is filled with good information.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

If you have half a day free, do a search on this board of the word "filler" and enjoy yourself.

There is no easy answer. Sometimes, in some cartridges, with some powders, under some circumstances, some fillers can cause an increase in accuracy. Substutute the words "can cause a ring in the chamber" for the words "can cause an increase in accuracy" and the sentence will still be true.

I never use fillers for small charges of fast powder. From time to time I do use a filler with a slow to medium burning powder when the charge fills 60% or more of the case. I use a sufficient amount of shotshell buffer (Grex/PSB) to fill the case so there is a light compression when you seat the bullet. This can result in a significant increase in accuracy. Just remember to include the weight of the filler to the weight of the bullet for the total weight of the "ejecta". The additional weight of the filler to the bullet will raise pressures.

I would never use COW, corn meal, coffee grounds or anything other organic material than can absorb ambient moisture and expand.

Many folks on this board use Dacron with excellent results. I have never messed with it as like others I have not found it to be needed with most loads I use.

The statement that you never want air between the filler or a wad and the base of the bullet should be engraved in stone somewhere.

Good luck and good shooting... Charles

[HORNET]

Half a day?? I think it would take much longer to read just the ones in the past 6 months. It ranks right up there with bottom-pour vs. ladle for casting.
You can get excellent accuracy without fillers if you experiment some and get the right powder used with the right primer. Sometimes it helps to drill the flash hole larger, but that gets into another area of dispute.

[joeb33050]

Fillers fill the case above the powder, there's a lot to a filler.
Wads can be over the powder, just above the powder, in the case mouth, or anywhere else.
Fillers include COW, GREX, grits or ???
Wads include cardboard, post card, wax, lube, CS Ventures soft gas checks, cotton, Dacron or ??
I use Dacron wads, teased balls to penny to nickel diameter, minimum amount/wt., tamped down on the powder.
Loads of Unique or SR4759 can be more accurate with Dacron wads than without. Increasing the charge makes no-Dacron loads as accurate as Dacron wad loads, for me.
I've used COW and other fillers with BP, with some smokeless rifle loads, and when blowing cases out.
I think we're better off without fillers or wads.
I've never ringed a rifle or pistol barrel, have shot many thousands of ctgs with fillers and wads.
I found COW makes BP 45/70 a lot easier on my shoulder, cleaner, and nicely accurate.
I've worked at it, and don't find the Dell experience convinving re Dacron causes wads.
Maybe it was the Bullseye!!
joe b.

[35remington]

Powders like H4227 and slower powders that are not used in full charge loads like H4895 benefit greatly from dacron filler, properly used. Extreme spreads are up to 200 fps with possible change in powder position.

The thing that bothers me about the dacron "causing" chamber ringing bit is simple math. Let's say, for sake of argument, that the dacron filler weighs 0.2 grain, which is in the ballpark for many loads.

Let's also say that it gets moving right along; 4700 fps (which is a figure commonly bandied about as the velocity of the propelling gasses; let's not argue the fine points).

The dacron "wad" (hard tamped plug) generates an underwhelming 9.8 ft/lbs. of energy. My pellet guns make more than that. I cannot explain exactly why, but it seems very unlikely that this very low amount of KE is sufficient to ring a chamber.

Something else is going on. I suggest dacron filling the entire unused space between powder and bullet as well.

I am also dubious about using a semi-incompressible filler like COW or cornmeal in a bottleneck case.

Do not use plastic granulated filler in low powder volume low pressure loads. The plastic filler may not be completely removed from the case and barrel on firing.

[smokemjoe]

I last month rang a barrel. Write up comming out in the Fouling Shot. Win. 540 powder hanged up or undermined in my Lee 1000, one charge maybe less then 1 gr. bullet lodged in barrel, next one blowed it out, shooting in a auto rifle.

[MikeH]

Well, I've gone from tamping down a pea sized, dacron wad; to no wad (because of advise about ringing), to a pea sized plus a lightly tamped wad to fill up the space, and so far, I haven't seen a ring or any difference in accuracy. All this was over many years. This is in an '03-A3. Any new advise? I really don't want to mess up the gun.

[Ben]

Fillers seem to be a wonderful answer for a problem that I just don't seem to have.

[HeavyMetal]

I mentioned earlier an article citing plastic filler.

Followed the articles instruction with loads in a 45 Colt (not acp) single action. I did not have any of the filler mentioned in the article (super grex) so I substituted a plastic buffer material (made for shotgun use) that was very similar. The reason behind the filler was huge varations in velocity in the load used, with the usual large group sizes. (2 1/2 inches) at about 20 yards.

Same load same boolit with the filler put all rounds (5) in a single hole! I did weigh the filler and made sure I was not exceeding powder versus boolit weight issue. I added enough filler so that the boolit base actually compressed the powder and kept it firmly in the back of the case against the primer hole! This is, I believe, where the accuracy come in! We aren't doing any magic we're just holding the light powder charge against the flash hole for more consistant ignition!

I have never done this since and I no longer own the gun. The only reason I turned to this particular filler was powder charge versus size of the case, 45 Colt is a big pistol case.

I can see this being a good filler , with the correct work up, in any of the large BP rounds someone might not want to shoot BP in!

Care must be taken to make sure compression of both powder and filler takes place! With that rule solidly held to I doubt I would see any ringing!

I would never use a filler of any kind in a bottle neck case even though the original article claims to have done so with a 30-30 load.

The reason I don't own the old Uberti 45 single action any more? Second time to the range with the filler loads a buddy shot it and demanded I sell it to him! He was both adament and offered three times more than I paid for the gun! He still has it somewhere in the wilds near Denver and claims the load still shoots the same way! By the by the gun was way cheap so my friend still paid less than he would have for a new one.

[BustemAgain]

My understanding of ringing chambers is that it is caused by the pressure shock wave of the expanding powder gasses striking parallel to the bullet base. That it has nothing to due with fillers per se but is induced when a filler is used to tamp down the powder against the primer and leaves empty space above the filler and the bullet base. This in effect focuses the shock wave like a piston directly at the bullets base and this is where the ringing will occur. By the very same mechanism a rifle fired vertically with a non case-filling load sans any kind of filler will quickly and surely ring a chamber. Screwy, ain't it?

[joeb33050]

Ed Lander, a MA gunsmith at the time, told me many years ago that chamber ringing was caused by a chip during the chambering of the gun. His opinion was that the ring didn't show up on the case until it had been fired a few times.
joe b.

[35remington]

It may be that properly used dacron occupies all the space between powder and bullet and tends to break up any "wave front" that forms from the expanding gasses. I do believe that the "impact" of the improperly employed dacron striking the bullet base is insufficient to cause ringing, and this wave front idea, which I've seen before, seems to be a better explanation than the very low KE of the dacron itself.

All I know is that I've used dacron employed this way (filling the case) in many thousands of shots, including 400 dollar custom barrels that shoot so well it would be a real disaster to cause a ring.

The fact that I continue to do do pretty firmly establishes my opinion on the matter.