Sore Shoulder

[p38buff]

Took my Shikari 45-70 to the range for the first time night before last. Ammo was a box of Win 300gn JHPs for a benchmark and 50 hand rolled Lee 405 FNs over five different powders. Loaded the boolits as dropped 461. WOW!! I'm still grinnin' although the shoulder is a bit tender. This is an indoor range with a 25 yard pistol section and a 50-100 yard rifle section. New rifles have to qualify on the 25 yard side before going to the long side. Since most pistol shooters don't venture much farther than 11 yards off hand, there is no lighting beyond that distance so its rather dark at 25 yards. These eyes are on the plus side of 60 and with iron sights in dim light I'm lucky to tell there's a target down there. Fortunately, this gun shoots much better than I do and to my utter amazement my first three shots with the 300 JHP punched a clover leaf (see pic). I then worked my way through the 405 FN loads with mixed results. The most violent and least accurate load was 47.0 grains of IMR 3031. I could only stand two rounds of that one for fear of separating my shoulder. Hard to believe that's a Trapdoor load. The jury is still out on Varget and the three best loads were 42.0 grains of H4895, 31.0 grains of IMR 4198, with the most accurate and easiest on my very sore by this time shoulder being 15 grains of Unique which put two rounds through the same hole(see qualifying target). Since I reload for several calibers, I still have a few more powders on hand to run through, but so far, Unique has my vote. We'll see how it works at 50 and 100 yards next.
Love this gun!

[Skipper]

How many times did you shoot the ramrod loose?? :razz:

[timspawn]

I bet it will do just fine at the longer ranges. A buddy of mine had one years ago. It was never benched at 100 yards but no clay bird was safe offhand at 100.

[p38buff]

Sounds like you speak from experience! As a matter of fact I had to re-seat it after every 3 shots. Must be a way to fix that.

[Skipper]

Sounds like you speak from experience! As a matter of fact I had to re-seat it after every 3 shots. Must be a way to fix that.

Yep, I used to burn the wood with the muzzle blast. I just ignored it after a while....it adds character. :razz:

[Doc Highwall]

A load that is pretty much a duplicate of the 70 grain black powder load is 22-24 grains of 2400 powder.

I have shot as little as 10 grains of Unique with a 385 grain bullet in a 45-70 for 930 fps in a Trapdoor Springfield rifle.

[Toymaker]

You didn't say what the twist rate was but I'll wager you'd like something around 23 to 24 grains of 4759 (hard to find-being discontinued) or 5744 under that 405 grain bullet. Very mild to shoot and, in my rifle, proved more accurate than Unique, 4198 or 4895. A load of 70 grains FFg, compressed 0.28 inches, card wad, newsprint wad and hand seated in a fire formed case is accurate and fun. But indoor ranges tend to frown on them. Run a damp patch through the bore between shots to keep the fouling soft. I've found BP residue easier and quicker to clean than smokeless.

[p38buff]

You didn't say what the twist rate was but I'll wager you'd like something around 23 to 24 grains of 4759 (hard to find-being discontinued) or 5744 under that 405 grain bullet. Very mild to shoot and, in my rifle, proved more accurate than Unique, 4198 or 4895. A load of 70 grains FFg, compressed 0.28 inches, card wad, newsprint wad and hand seated in a fire formed case is accurate and fun. But indoor ranges tend to frown on them. Run a damp patch through the bore between shots to keep the fouling soft. I've found BP residue easier and quicker to clean than smokeless.

I believe the Shikari is a 1:22 twist which is different than the "standard" 1:20 for 45-70 guns. Living in Kalifornia means tough luck finding powder, so I don't think I'll be straying from what I've managed to collect so far with the possible exception 2400 which I have seen now and then. I am intrigued with the BP angle since the included cleaning rod looks like a ram rod. I do belong to a gun club that has an outdoor range so BP wouldn't be a problem. What would be some options for BP pushing a 405 FN flat base?

[webradbury]

How does that Model 81 shoot!? I want one so bad.....! Sorry, didn't mean to change the subject

[p38buff]

How does that Model 81 shoot!? I want one so bad.....! Sorry, didn't mean to change the subject

It's a real "kick" with a metal butt plate! It's nick name is "Spring Pole" due to the long recoil action and three stiff springs in the barrel shroud and buttstock, but it will send 5 rounds down range as fast as you can pull the trigger. The first handloads were pretty accurate with a tang sight at 25 yards (see pic, first three shots are working up diagonally from bottom left) but I'm still working up a load that can group under 3 inches at 100. That may be the best I can do with these eyes, iron sights, and this design.
It always attracts attention at the range and I can't wait to see what it'll do to a wild boar.

[leadman]

I have had several Shikari's over the years in both 45-70 and 44 magnum. They do kick a bit. The one 45-70 I bought brand new in the mid 70s' and the buttstock kept lossening up until the wood was pounded into the socket.
The frames on these rifles are cast iron so won't take the loads of the newer SB2 frames.
I do have 2 Huntsman muzzleloaders left, both in 58 caliber. These can wollop the shoulder pretty good also.

[rfd]

similar to the shikari (1:22), i've had 3 buff classics (1:18). that crescent steel buttplate is the kiss of death, er, pain. i used a kick killer butt pad and that took the sting away. i cast lyman 457193 (415gns) and 457132 (530grns) in 1:20 along with 26 and 24 grains of aa5744, for trap door loads that are quite accurate. you want slow travelling heavy lead for distance shooting. the shikari might do best with the 457193 dropping at .459-.460 and 415 grains, over 26 grains of aa5744 and a .030" card wad. anyhoo, it's all fun, eh!

[carbine]

Back in the 1980's we used to skirmish with 45-70 trapdoors (orig) I used to use 10 grains of unique with the 405 boolit. Worked a treat

[rfd]

if you want light-on-the-shoulder trap door loads that are good to just past 100 yards, use trail boss @ 70% case capacity (about 12 grains) and 405grn lead.

[leadman]

I shot a 405gr boolit most of the time but my friend had an old adjustable base mold that cast a boolit up to around 525gr IIRC. I shot some of these but had to take the buttplate off every 4 or 5 rounds to tighten up the stock bolt. The recoil would give me a headache in a few minutes and a black and blue shoulder for sure.
The 300gr jacketed bullets lessened the recoil and made it easier to shoot.
I was young and did not consider reducing the powder charge, or just to dumb to realize I could do that back then.

[BCRider]

As soon as I saw "sore shoulder" in the title I figured it had to be a 45-70.... :D

Some of the loads folks around here shoot for long distance cowboy shooting are pretty hard on the body even from a heavy Sharps. Which is why I went .38-55.... Yeah, I'm a wuss.... :D

[Lefty Red]

I had a Handi in 45/70. Wish I still had it! Shot great with Trapdoor loads. That is all I could stand!
Jerry

[rfd]

with the .45-70, it all depends on the powder type and the bullet. i can load a .45-70 with a 70% case of smokeless trail boss for a sub-trap door load, and my 12yo grandson can shoot it all day long with nary an issue, and be pretty accurate out to 100 yards or so. or a mild trap door load with smokeless aa5744 or sr4759, good to well beyond 500 yards, and fire off 100 rounds and not get sore let alone bruised. then there are the ruger smokeless loads and jacketed or gas checked *fast* boolits that *will* test yer shoulder if not destroy it. black powder loads can be somewhat tailored with filler wads, but they are mostly more than mild because they are essentially case full volume loads. so, the .45-70 can be whatever you want and need ... it doesn't have to be loaded to hurt and yet it will still get the job done on either critters, gongs or paper.

[p38buff]

with the .45-70, it all depends on the powder type and the bullet. i can load a .45-70 with a 70% case of smokeless trail boss for a sub-trap door load, and my 12yo grandson can shoot it all day long with nary an issue, and be pretty accurate out to 100 yards or so. or a mild trap door load with smokeless aa5744 or sr4759, good to well beyond 500 yards, and fire off 100 rounds and not get sore let alone bruised. then there are the ruger smokeless loads and jacketed or gas checked *fast* boolits that *will* test yer shoulder if not destroy it. black powder loads can be somewhat tailored with filler wads, but they are mostly more than mild because they are essentially case full volume loads. so, the .45-70 can be whatever you want and need ... it doesn't have to be loaded to hurt and yet it will still get the job done on either critters, gongs or paper.

Eureka! I was able to score the only pound of aa5744 in SoCal on Friday so I put 25 grains under my 405 FNs yesterday. It was too good of a bike day so to make some points with the wife, we toured the back roads of San Diego County. I'll remind her of that when I go to the range next Saturday to test the 5744 and the other loads that are not so patiently waiting.

[40-82 hiker]

You didn't say what the twist rate was but I'll wager you'd like something around 23 to 24 grains of 4759 (hard to find-being discontinued) or 5744 under that 405 grain bullet. Very mild to shoot and, in my rifle, proved more accurate than Unique, 4198 or 4895. A load of 70 grains FFg, compressed 0.28 inches, card wad, newsprint wad and hand seated in a fire formed case is accurate and fun. But indoor ranges tend to frown on them. Run a damp patch through the bore between shots to keep the fouling soft. I've found BP residue easier and quicker to clean than smokeless.

Yep. I shoot 24.0grs. 5744 with 405gr. boolit in TD and '86 Winchester. Mild load, and easy on shoulder. Is 47 grs. of 3031 really a TD load? Something doesn't sound right about that, JMHO. Could be wrong, sorry if I am. I have a 1884 TD and I wouldn't even think of that load.

[rfd]

my up to 200 yard .45-70 boolit is a lyman #457193 that drops at 415 grains with a 1:20 alloy, gato lube in the grooves, over a .028" milk carton wad and a newspaper no-stickum wad, over 26.0 grains of aa5744, the oal is 2.625" for the pedersoli bodine rolling block, with one grease groove slightly showing. the fire formed brass gets lightly neck sized only before loading, no crimp (single shot rifles). extremely accurate if i do my part, easy on the shoulder. just built 100 of 'em for a 200 yard match on the 29th.

http://i.imgur.com/dqpaC9u.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/kEuOogq.jpg

[p38buff]

Yep. I shoot 24.0grs. 5744 with 405gr. boolit in TD and '86 Winchester. Mild load, and easy on shoulder. Is 47 grs. of 3031 really a TD load? Something doesn't sound right about that, JMHO. Could be wrong, sorry if I am. I have a 1884 TD and I wouldn't even think of that load.

According to Hodgdon's Trapdoor Data the 3031 recipes run from 45.5 to 48.5 grains. I think I'll pull the boolits on the rest of those cartridges and use the 3031 for something else. I've got plenty of other calibers that like it. Since I may never find Trail Boss in California, sounds like 5744 is the way to go. We'll soon find out.

[p38buff]

my up to 200 yard .45-70 boolit is a lyman #457193 that drops at 415 grains with a 1:20 alloy, gato lube in the grooves, over a .028" milk carton wad and a newspaper no-stickum wad, over 26.0 grains of aa5744, the oal is 2.625" for the pedersoli bodine rolling block, with one grease groove slightly showing. the fire formed brass gets lightly neck sized only before loading, no crimp (single shot rifles). extremely accurate if i do my part, easy on the shoulder. just built 100 of 'em for a 200 yard match on the 29th.

http://i.imgur.com/dqpaC9u.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/kEuOogq.jpg

Those are some mighty fine looking boolits!!

[rfd]

my goal with the .45-70 is accurate trap door velocities with 400 to 540 grain boolits, at distances of 200yds to 500yds with s/s rifles like the rolling block and sharps. i've tried more than a few different smokeless powders for the .45-70, including trail boss, aa5744, sr4759, h4895, imr3031, imr4198, and varget.

my personal testing with sr4759, h4895, imr3031, imr4198, varget (and surely other smokeless powders) show the accuracy is acceptable, but offer a bit too much speed and recoil for a trap door use.

trail boss is a very high bulk smokeless powder that can be loaded from 70% to 100% case capacity. in terms of recoil with a 9# rifle (h&r buffalo classic w/1lb lead in the butt stock) and a 410grn lead boolit, at 70% it's a recoil kitten that sub-teen kid can shoot all day long, at 100% it's like a typical trap door pussycat load. accuracy at 100yds with any load is quite reasonable for hunting, but imho not match worthy. i have about 5lbs left and i use it for the kids and any recoil sensitive person that wants to plink around with the big calibers.

aa5744 has more bulk than the other powders i've tested, save for trail boss. for me it delivers exceptional accuracy at 200yds and beyond, with the required slower trap door velocities at very acceptable recoil. it's the smokeless powder that finds favor with the long distance match shooters that don't wanna mess with the holy black, or need reduced recoil with exceptional accuracy. it's not a clean burning powder and almost always leaves unburnt grains in the tube - they have no effect on accuracy. there is no need to clean the rifling between shots, or even after shooting.

for best accuracy, most play with the boolit alloy to see what the rifle likes best, typically between 1:20 and 1:40 of tin:lead. as with any lead boolit, the base should be sharp edged, protect the base with at least a thin card wad, and use a black powder soft lube. my rifles and 200-300yds prefer the lyman #457193 flat nose that drops for me at 415gns with 1:20. for longer distances i use the lyman #457132 postell boolit.

i think most will find that aa5744 is the go-to smokeless for very accurate .45-70 trap door long distance loads.

my current .45-70 rifles ...

pedersoli bodine remington replica
http://i.imgur.com/t4Er885.jpg

cimarron chiappa creedmoor usa team sharps replica
http://i.imgur.com/1QLIjwy.jpg

[cajun shooter]

I can tell you the best and easiest way to eliminate that shoulder pain from all of that bench testing.
When I was a Firearms Instructor for the Baton RougePolice/ Sheriffs Office range in the 80's we put on a rifle sight in for the public every year before deer season. Myself and another instructor would shoot hundreds of rifles over the 5 day period every year.
The first thing is, we used the PAST Magnum Shoulder strap on pad, it works. The second thing is we had a good support of the rifles with sand bags both front and rear. When we shot the heavy kickers, we always added a 3/4 filled sand bag between the stock and our shoulder with PAST Pad also attached. This allowed us to shoot the hard kicking rifles all day long with no problems. I went home every day feeling relaxed with no pain.
You should also purchase and install one of the recoil reducers for this very light rifle. I had one of the first H&R rifles that came into the Baton Rouge area as I was working in a gun store. I figured out real fast to remove the for looks only under barrel fake ramrod which was really a cleaning rod. It would almost remove itself when a healthy round was fired. The small ball bearing placed in the rod was not enough to hold it.
Just remember that this rifle is a shotgun frame with a rifle barrel.
Too bad your range is not an outdoor range where you could shoot the original powder for the 45-70. I now shoot my Buffalo Classic with BP for loads of fun. Take Care David

[rfd]

i agree with the use of the past shoulder pad. i have the magnum pad and used it a lot, but eventually found it just easier, and as effective, to use a kick killer butt pad for each of my s/s rifles. a combination of both really does a great job absorbing recoil. unlike bench rest matches, buffalo rifle and silhouette type matches require cross sticks for the most part, so the rifle must be shouldered.

for my first h&r buffalo classic, i put a 1lb mercury tube in the butt stock, but for the next 2 buff classics i just used 1lb of lead shot and found that to be just as effective. the worse part of the buff classic is that crescent steel butt plate - looks cool but is murder on recoil. all those rifles also used kick killer lace-on butt pads, too.

[40-82 hiker]

According to Hodgdon's Trapdoor Data the 3031 recipes run from 45.5 to 48.5 grains. I think I'll pull the boolits on the rest of those cartridges and use the 3031 for something else. I've got plenty of other calibers that like it. Since I may never find Trail Boss in California, sounds like 5744 is the way to go. We'll soon find out.

I just did some research via computer (googled the issue), and there does appear to a body of literature questioning how appropriate this load listed by Hodgdon actually is. The excessive recoil could be an indication of excessive velocity? Western Powder's web site lists the MAXIMUM pressure allowable for their loads for all boolits with AA5744 to be between 16,100 and 18,000, which is in range of the the starting load for the Hodgdon loads. Western Powder's web site lists their "Medium" (sic, second tier) loads for stronger actions (e.g., '86 Winchester, et. al.) to be in the pressure range for these Hodgdon loads.

I found a number of discussions about these Hodgdon loads, and the controversy seems to be questioning the wisdom of Hodgdon regarding these loads. I personally do not KNOW these loads are unsafe in a TD, but I question them just based on having used 3031 in the past of other modern cartridges. I found statements that 3031 in the mid to higher 30s to be more appropriate for the TDs.

Obviously people are not blowing up there TDs with these loads, but the excessive recoil does make me suspicious, but this is just my opinion. The point I am trying to make with this post is that there is a body of literature questioning this, for the very reasons I am. The Hodgdon web site lists the starting load of 3031 to be 17,300 (already above Western Powder's maximum for some boolits - the 405gr. for one, which has a maximum pressure of 16,100 listed) , and Hodgdon's MAXIMUM load has a pressure of 21,000, which is not even considered in the TD range by Western Powder (AA).

So, I am only adding to the controversy. The decision to use the Hodgdon loads is certainly based on faith in the company. Since I am getting very good accuracy with the AA5744 loads (as many others) as suggested by them, I will use my faith in that company for their loads. Err on the side of caution?

[rfd]

as always, lots will depend on the strength of the rifle in question and its load rating, and then the intended purpose of the shooter.

lyman's 4th edition cast boolit manual sez that imr3031 loads of 34-39 grains for trap door velocities of 1160-1350fps. ruger loads for that powder are 47-53 grains, with velocities above 1600fps, and will require gas checks or jacketed boolits. pressures are commensurate with the loads, not every .45-70 is ruger worthy (as sometimes can be the humans shouldering such hefty rounds).

bp pressures will be noticeably less and are always trap door levels, and only the shooter can determine if the recoil is acceptable.

[Doc Highwall]

The recoil from a 70 grain black powder charge in the rifles is high enough that the Govt. reduced the charge to 55 grains for the lighter carbine with the 405 grain bullet. Add a steel butt plate and the fun factor goes down.

The narrow butt plates make the recoil even worse, I am glad the Browning BPCR have a shotgun butt plate that is larger to spread the recoil over a larger area.

[40-82 hiker]

as always, lots will depend on the strength of the rifle in question and its load rating, and then the intended purpose of the shooter.

lyman's 4th edition cast boolit manual sez that imr3031 loads of 34-39 grains for trap door velocities of 1160-1350fps. ruger loads for that powder are 47-53 grains, with velocities above 1600fps, and will require gas checks or jacketed boolits. pressures are commensurate with the loads, not every .45-70 is ruger worthy (as sometimes can be the humans shouldering such hefty rounds).

bp pressures will be noticeably less and are always trap door levels, and only the shooter can determine if the recoil is acceptable.

Thanks. Looks like Lyman is stating what I was reading, and agreeing with the thought that the Hodgdon 3031 loads listed for the TD appear to be at least on the high side, if not too high.