1903 springfield rifle and bayonet

[45-70marlin]

I need some input from someone who could tell me what this is worth. I have a 1903 springfield rifle with bayonet. On the rifle barrel is SA 11-13, on the stock is SA SPG in a box, 2 circle p stamps. Rifle is in pretty good shape,blueing worn some, nice bore. stock is straight grip.I looked up the date the reciver was made it seems to be 1912. sn. starts with 570,xxx the rifle shoots very good. The bayonet I have is a unissued USN MK1 OL with sheath. I know the history of this bayonet as it came from my close friend who is now passed away. The rifle also has a sling that I think is from ww2 it has copper rivets in it but I am not sure when made. Any way thats what I have. I may have to sell so I am trying to see what it is worth. Thanks all.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Photos would help a lot in assessing the condition.

[gew98]

Your rifle if a springyfield is of the problematic class C steel . You may or may not have it go pop in your face . Best to hang it on the wall and not roll the dice with your life on it. From the stock cartouches it sounds offhand like it's got a later stock on it , and or has been through a rebuild. 03's are very collectible and as such condition and period originality is everything. Good Pics help alot in determining value of such a rifle.

[Adam Helmer]

45-70marlin,

I do gun appraisals for local attorneys, but cannot say much without your rifle in hand. I disagree with gew98, your rifle is not unsafe. That old "SAW" about Low Numbers being unsafe is not a done deal. If it were, why were they NEVER withdrawn from frontline service in WWI or WWII? I rest my case.

Adam

[Scharfschuetze]

It sounds like you have a nice collectible rifle.

Without photos, it's hard to say, but the double "Ps" on the stock (bottom of the wrist?) would indicate an arsenal rebuild at some point. Later rebuilds in the WWII era are often seen on the left side of the stock adjacent the action and identify the arsenal and the inspector. Date of manufacture and the barrel date are close enough that it might be the original barrel, but the second "P" also suggests it could have been rebarreled when it made its trip back to the armory. The type of finish on your rifle could also be a clue as to its rebuild status. Blueing, or slightly different colored parkerizing all help to date a finish on 1903s. There are lots of little indicators, but as Adam notes above, one really must inspect the rifle.

I'm guessing that your sling must be a model of 1907 if it has any rivets in it. The canvas M1 sling wasn't issued till the WWII time frame. Another possibility if it is canvas is that it is a Kerr sling. My 1903 from 1918 has the Kerr sling, while I also have a 1903 with the Model of 1907 sling. If it's the leather 1907 sling, it's probably in need of some neetsfoot oil to preserve it if the sling dates to the same period as your rifle.

As Gew98 suggests, post some photos of any and all stamps on the wood as well as the overall rifle. It may be of some help for tying down what your rifle is worth.

[tdoyka]

45-70marlin,

whatever you do, stop right now. this gun can be hazzardous to your health. you should put it in a box and mail it to me!!!:-D
really, you should!!!:-o i'll keep it, i'll clean it, i'll only shoot cb out of it, and i'll call it george.:bigsmyl2:

it is an real good gun. you should be proud to own it. i'm looking for a 1903 on gunbroker and others.

but if you do, i have that address right here........[smilie=l:

[45-70marlin]

It looks like I have to sell the rifle. I can get some pictures of it but posting here for me may be a problem as I tried a long time ago and cant do it. As far as shooting it here is a good article on that. It seems they are safe to shoot as long as good ammo is used. Now if you have a over pressure round the reciver will shatter in pieces. http://m1903.com/03rcvrfail/
I will try to post pictures in a day or 2 and see if I can. The sling is leather. With all That goes with the gun I am thinking about $1100. more or less? I look a gunbroker and the prices are all over the board for these rifles. That is what makes it so hard to price. The double P's are under the grip by the trigger guard. I thought these were proof tests?

[Scharfschuetze]

The P does indeed indicate that the rifle has passed inspection and proof firing. A second proof mark is a punch mark under the bolt handle near the bolt body. Some 1903s will show a punch mark on the receiver ring in the vicinity of the Model and serial number.

If you have the original stock or a replacement stock from the WW I era, then there is the possibility of the inspector's initials on the left side of the stock adjacent the striker housing. Original early 1903 stocks did not have reinforcing bolts through them. This was later changed to one and finally two cross bolts and can be a clue to when the rifle was rebuilt.

Sorry that you have to sell what is arguably a very nice heirloom.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Still can't do much of an evaluation without photos, but I'm thinking that $1,100 is wildly optimistic.

[Mauser48]

I would say around $1000.

[45-70marlin]

133257

[45-70marlin]

picture

[fouronesix]

Too bad on having to sell. The rifle looks good in the photos. The sling is likely much more recent. The bayonet looks to be the 16" M1905- either from the initial US SA or RIA production period of 1906-1922 or the 1942-3 WWII contracted version. Easy to tell because they were marked. The bayonet grips also look like the "polymer" type of the later production. The scabbard most certainly is of the '42-'43 period. But, those 16" bayonets do add some value to the package- no matter from the early period of production or the later '42-'43, WWII period.

[45-70marlin]

prpimg://n975407873,4picture

[45-70marlin]

Well it took forever for the pic's as I have dielup. Frozen mud is faster. As you all can see from the 2 posts above one says $1000. the other says $1,100 is optimistic the vale of these rifles vary greatly even on gunbroker. I am looking for a fair price for it and not give it away. I got hit with a left field 1099-c on my taxes this time and have to pay. Didnt know about it, so we got hit hard. Anyway ,thanks for all input.

[Mauser48]

I strongly believe you shouldnt have too much trouble getting $1000 for it because of the barrel date and the bayonet with it. I have seen the bayonets sell for $250 lately.

[fouronesix]

Don't even get me started on the IRS or other tax issues :(

The bayonet you have is most assuredly an M1905. Either the older RIA or SA or most likely one of the contract ones from 1942-43. You mentioned in the OP that it was an USN Mark 1. That is actually the scabbard designation AKA the M3, the fibered plastic scabbard for the 16" M1905 bayonet . You also mentioned the "OL" marking. That should be on the ricasso of the bayonet along with a "flaming bomb" symbol, a date of either "1942 or 1943" and the "US" mark. The "OL" stands for Oneida Limited, one of the contractors that made the later '42-'43 M1905 bayonets.

To further confuse the issue, there was also a bayonet designated the USN Mark 1. That bayonet was actually mostly of plastic and used for training.

Unfortunately, M1905 bayonets and M3 scabbards are being reproduced, even with correct looking stamps. Sooner or later attempts will be made to pass those off as originals- just an FYI.

I think yours is very much original and is in obviously top condition. The current market for those is still strong and one in "unissued" condition will even be better. I would think the bayo and scabbard alone would be valued at 200-400. One of the reasons those 16" M1905 bayos have kept pretty good value is because so many were gathered up, even after the '42-'43 production run up of the 16" M1905, and cut down to the standard 10" blade length of the M1 bayo for the Garand. The M1 bayo is basically an M1905 with a 10" blade.

Good luck.

[45-70marlin]

Fouronesix,
I think you are right about the bayonet. My friend worked at Crane Navel depot in IN. he was there in the 60's . he told me his boss came in with a box of these [maybe from a ship] and told the workers to get what they wanted. He also was in on the M-1 grand adapter converson to 308. He thought that idea sucked as they pulled out after time. Maybe in a few days I will post it on the for sale site here. I had good luck selling my Ruger 77/357 here the other day. The sling also came from him.

[Dutchman]

Bayonet is U.S. Model 1942.

See Bayonets from Janzen's Notebook page 223-224.

Below is a U.S. Model 1905/42. Originally mfg in 1918 at Springfield Armory with a serial number and rebuilt for WW2 with new wood grips, steel parkerized and a USN Mk1 scabbard. The Mk1 scabbard was for the plastic bayonet but since they are structurally identical they show up with real bayonets, as this one.

http://images34.fotki.com/v1290/photos/2/28344/2974527/bb12-vi.jpg

Let us assume a package price of $1,000 for rifle and bayonet. At the low end the bayonet & scabbard are $250 easy. That leaves $750 for the rifle. IF it is "original" condition as per USGI and it looks as good in person as it does in the photo then $750 isn't out of line. The collector appeal is NOT diminished due to the low number issue, nor is the price.

[fouronesix]

Here's a group showing some of the variations based on the M1905 bayonet. All will fit the 1903 series and Garand rifles. Wood grips on the RIA 1918. All others with WWII phenolic grips.

RIA 1918 M1905
AFH 1942 M1905
UC 1943-45 M1 built to 10" M1 specs
RIA 1906 M1905 cut and re-gripped to 10" M1 (spear point)
SA 1906 M1905 cut and re-gripped to 10" M1 (Bowie point)

[45-70marlin]

We are getting a lot of great input on the rifle and bayonet! When I got the rifle ,I took it apart only to clean and it was full of the petolatum [spelling?] grease. I think it is original as it can get. I think I was close on price. I will post it for $1000.00 in a day or 2 unless someone here wants it. Thanks all!

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

45-70marlin,

About 6 months ago I sold a like new arsenal refurb of a SC 1903A3. I had removed it from the government mummy wrap myself, cleaned the grease off of it and re-oiled the wood with linseed oil. It was in immaculate condition. I sold it for a thousand dollars and it took less than an hour for it to sell at that price.

The rifle you have there is older, is in excellent shape from the pictures and with that WWII refurbed bayonet, worth around $1500.00. I have a good deal of experience with those rifles, but if you really want to get it evaluated, go over to the CMP forums and look at what rifles like it and in it's condition are going for there without a bayonet.

[45-70marlin]

Hey Dave,
now you got me thinking a bit more on this. the bayonet is not a refurb. but unissued. you are not far from me. I live off 85 by the GA. line. My daughter and son in law live in flowery branch. I dont want to go so high as it would take a long time to sell. Where did you sell your rifle? I have had good luck selling here. the people here are good to deal with. This has been the hardest rifle to price I ever had. Its hard enough that I have to sell but now to figure out the price is a challenge.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thanks for posting the pictures. It is a very nice appearing rifle. I concur with the $750 figure, and $250 for the bayonet. Nice find.

[45-70marlin]

Thanks for your input Der Gebirgsjager.