Annealing question (and just saying hi)

[nhecht25]

Hi everyone,

I'm one of those guys who's guilty of lurking and absorbing information for a long time now but never registered or contributed much back. Today I've decided to register and start contributing.

So, to start with I want to ask a question about annealing cases. I'm lucky to have access to my wife's large kiln which has a capacity to anneal 1000s of cases at a time at any temperature I want for any amount of time I want. I've read some debate about the proper temperature for annealing but I'm wondering if it really matters when the intent is to swage jacketed boolits. I assume as long as the brass gets softer and makes swaging easier is all that matters. I'm wondering if any of you have come up with a temperature that you know of where the brass starts to get easier to swage. Would love to hear your thoughts.

Nathan

[blltsmth]

Nathan: Look in the stickies in this forum and also use the advanced search function. LOTS of valuable information that is there that should help you out. Welcome to the forum and, GOOD LUCK IN ALL YOURSWAGING ENDEAVORS!!!!

[nhecht25]

Thanks for the welcome and it's clear by looking at everything on this forum that I could spend weeks reading and still have only scratched the surface.

[clodhopper]

Welcome to the forum Nathan. I do not know the exact temp you request. But am envious of your wife's kiln. I have been just using the electric lead pot slightly less than half full, on the highest setting method.
Pretty sure someone will chime in the right number, glad you started posting and looking forward to reading about your exploits.

[nhecht25]

Thanks Clodhopper. When putting the cases in the lead pot as you do, how long does it typically take before they soften up?

[nhecht25]

ok, I should have read the sticky about annealing cases before posting this I suppose because it pretty much answers my questions. Oh well...I still got to say hello and start posting.

[ReloaderFred]

Welcome, Nathan. I do use a ceramics kiln for annealing my brass for swaging. I've chosen 1125 degrees F, since that's what Starline uses to anneal their brass during the brass forming process. I figured they had the resources to thoroughly investigate what the proper temperature was, plus the input of metallurgists, so there was no need for me to do any further research on my own. In other words, I blatantly stole their work.

I'll bring a batch of brass up to temperature, whether the cores are already installed, or not, usually in the evening. Then I'll turn the kiln off and just let it sit closed up overnight and take the annealed cases out the next morning, but they're still about 240 degrees, so I just set the trays on the concrete floor and let them cool.

Here they are ready to put in the kiln:

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m606/ReloaderFred/Annealing%20Jackets/SwagingandMisc020.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/ReloaderFred/media/Annealing%20Jackets/SwagingandMisc020.jpg.html)

And here they are after annealing. These have the cores already in them, so they were annealed together:

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m606/ReloaderFred/Annealing%20Jackets/SwagingandMisc022.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/ReloaderFred/media/Annealing%20Jackets/SwagingandMisc022.jpg.html)

The unexpected result is that the cores are bonded to the jackets in this method, without the use of any flux. As you probably know, flux is an acid, and unless thoroughly cleaned out of your dies right away, it will rust and corrode them. I prefer to not introduce flux into my swaging dies, so this was a side benefit of my process.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Danth]

Fred: do you bring up the temp to 1125 and shut off, or do you hold it at 1125 for a period of time? I have been experimenting with temp/time for a while and find if I hold the temp over 1100 for an extended period of time, the brass takes on a porus texture, particularly near the necks.

[ReloaderFred]

Danth,

I bring it up to 1125* and then just shut it off. By that time, everything in there is glowing red and it holds it's temperature for a long time since it's well insulated. The first time I did this process, I started to reach in the next morning and then thought better of it when I felt the heat still coming out, so I aimed my infrared thermometer at the cases and it read 240*. That would have left a mark!

I left it overnight that first time because it was late and I didn't want to deal with the molten lead cores as I lifted the tray out, plus that much heat. I was being cautious and lazy at the same time, and found by accident that it bonds the cores. The only way to separate the core from the jacket after firing is to melt the core out of the squashed bullet. I just wish the .40 cases were a little thicker for my .44 bullets..

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Cane_man]

one thing I learned is that if I did not anneal the brass cases properly the shank of the bullet would have a "wavy" look to it when swaged... I don't have a pic but if you have done this you know what I am trying to explain!

[nhecht25]

Fred, thanks for the detailed information and pics. I've never tried adding the core during the annealing process so I'll have to try this. My wife's kiln has 2 site plugs on the side that can be left out during the firing process for ventallation. I may leave one or both out to aid in the cool down process.

Cane man, I also noticed the "wavy" look on the shank when I first started experimenting with cases that weren't annealed. I ocassional still see it but I'm wondering if I didn't run the kiln up high enough. I only took it to about 750 degrees. I'll try it at 1125 as Fred suggests to see if this helps.

[BT Sniper]

Fred has given you good info. It is possible to cook the brass TOO MUCH making it too soft in my experience using a kiln, you start cooking out the zink as well as other issues. I wouldn't go over the temp Fred mentioned, simply put the brass in there and turn it on, when it reaches 900-1100 turn it off, sounds like good info to me.

Swage on!

BT

[rolltide]

I hope it is pure lead. At that temp, if it has any arsenic or other alloys in it, you would be releasing a lot of very toxic vapors wouldn't you?

[ReloaderFred]

It's an enclosed kiln. Vapors don't escape from it, since it's designed to keep the heat in and it's not vented. I also doubt the vapors would be anymore dangerous than cigarette smoke, anyway...........

Hope this helps.

Fred

[nhecht25]

I appreciate all the replies and info. I use pure lead that was salvaged from an old CT Scan machine. My brother was a radiology tech and got over 800 pounds of it in 25 pound plates.

[sprinkintime]

I have been using a electric furnace for about 4yrs, and annelling at 1000 degrees for 15-20 mins and never have had any problem in swaging. Sprink