accurate full bore mold for 12 ga

[bbs383ci]

I am looking to get a full bore mold for 12 ga. I have picked out the 73-700S mold with .732" diameter. I will be shooting this in a maverick with a 20" barrel smoothbore. would it be possible to get decent groups at 100 yards with this granted I work up a load that the gun likes. im leaning toward STEEL powder since I have a bunch and I know it works great under a heavy load.


input would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
Dustin Williams

[bikerbeans]

Is this a hollow base mold, if it isn't then probably not a candidate for a smooth bore barrel.

BB

[bbs383ci]

no its not do they make a full bore hollow base mold? or does someone make one?

[longbow]

For smoothbore you need a drag stabilized slug... either hollow base or attached wad slugs. Solids will not shoot well as without spin stabilizing they will simply tumble.

Now, for 100 yard accuracy, that is a whole other thing.

Round balls will give 3" to 4" groups with good loads out to 50 yards or so then generally start to "wander" a bit. Sometime groups at 100 yards can be quite good but they are undependable.

As for "full bore" moulds, there aren't many by commercial makers but a few from specialty makers. The big list of moulds I know of is:

- Lyman Foster slug: Very much under bore size and poor accuracy in my experience. Also very thin construction so poor penetration.
- Rapine 530550 (IIRC): A pretty nice slug design and reasonable accuracy to 50 yards anyway. Better design and construction than the Lyman Foster for sure.
- Brooks: Specialty maker. turbo1889 got a couple of very nice 12 ga. full bore moulds from Brooks and was please with their performance.

And that is about it.

Near full bore slugs:

- Lee: 1 oz. and 7/8 oz. Fit into shotcups. Some report pretty good accuracy all the way to 100 yards. I have the Lee 1 oz. and it is not as accurate as good round ball loads to 50 yards so far but I have not used it much.
Lyman Sabot slug: Like the Lee this one is designed to fit into standard shotcups. Good reports on accuracy to 50 yards or so and past 100 yards for rifled guns.
- BPI sells "wad slugs" like the Lee and Lyman, they are meant to be loaded into shotcups.

The above are all hollow base slugs.

BPI and others sell component slugs like Gualandi DGS, Brenneke and other attached wad slugs which are likely to do better to 100 yards from smoothbore than hollowbase slugs.

If you want good dependable 100 yard accuracy it is best to get a rifled barrel and shoot solids.

If you do a search you will find plenty of information on reloading and potential accuracy. Look for posts by turbo1889, VDOmemories (Ajay Maden), Ed Hubel, cpileri... I am sure I am forgetting some but those have all posted information on components, load data and accuracy. Do a bunch of reading then testing to see what your gun likes and what sort of accuracy you can expect.

I have been on the quest for "decent" 100 yard accuracy from smoothbore for several years now. Still working on it and getting close to buying a rifled gun.

Good luck and enjoy the journey!'

Longbow

[cpileri]

And don't forget Hogtamer. And longbow is the man for smoothbore w round ball info.

[Hogtamer]

The problem with a full bore solid slug that I see is recoil. To move the brutes that I have seen (700 grns +) requires a charge that I cannot tolerate, and I am not particularly recoil shy. Perhaps some one who can conceptualize better than I could do some ciphering on this idea: Imagine a full bore (say .732) slug where the muzzle end was short and round nosed and flat based. Then imagine that slug centered on a short bolt, where the "head" of the bolt was also full bore (perhaps 1/4" thick,) and the shaft of the bolt or "stem" was perhaps 1/4" diameter. All this cut into a mold that would yield a one piece slug proportioned to weigh 1 oz. The "stem" reduces overall weight and the base serves the equivalent fuction of a nitro card. ???

[longbow]

In response to your PM, not hair brained at all. In fact there are some European slugs that look very much like that and James Gates Of Dixie Slugs also has a design very similar except he has added an attached wad to what was originally an all lead slug... similar in design to what you show.

I agree that having a solid slug is an issue for weight. Personally I like to keep slug weights between 1 oz. and about 1 3/8 oz. partly due to recoil adn lead consumption but mostly because there is a lot of load data available. Once into the real heavies of 600 to 800 grs. (or in some cases over 1000 grs.) there is not a lot of load data available.

This is one of the reasons I ventured into attached wad slugs. I can make a solid "nose" of reasonable weight then add the drag stabilized tail. The problem there is consistent tails that do not distort unacceptably at ignition.

Anyway, I am drifting off topic but will post some pics of the slugs I mentioned. IISR the pics are from "Gunwriters on the Web". And I have some pics of the Dixie slug as well.

The biggest problem I see with the stem is that it will collapse unless of large enough cross section and probably heat treated slug. As I have mentioned in several posts, the only way I have been successful in preventing HB slug skirt collapse (even thick skirts) is to oven heat treat. that also applies to finned slugs I have made and tried. You need high strength alloy, heat treated and enough cross section to avoid distortion at firing. A filled cavity helps but doesn't solve the distortion in my experience.

I have not tried these solid slugs but have been planning to try casting a solid rod then machining to get a few of them for testing. You will be amazed at how similar they are to your sketch if you have never seen these.

I'll post pics tomorrow... it is time for my beauty rest.

Longbow

[bbs383ci]

thanks for the replies guys. I was actually looking at rifled barrels yesterday, still debating.

I was looking at the Dixie tri-ball ammo yesterday as well and I like the looks and sound of it I have an old wingmaster with a fixed full choke that would probably shoot them very well at 40 yards, do any of you guys have any experience loading any thing like that?

Thanks

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Among the most important points in this thread...

I agree, if you don't want a versatile shotgun or live in a jurisdiction with legal problems, you can cut out a lot of development and uncertainty by using a rifled bore and something solid. I live where only smoothbore guns and parts can be bought freely by a licence holder. For rifled firearms a good reason must be argued for each, and only high velocity rifled firearms can be used for deer. So it is a rifle or feral goats, and the ones with diabolic horns smell something awful.

I also agree that round ball gives away little to any smoothbore slug at ranges up to 50 yards which is pretty useful in some places. Two main things can go wrong with round ball (while others, like skirt deformation, can't.) The ball can roll along the bore, and this you combat by choosing ball diameter and wad so that it is held snugly as it passes through the bore -and the choke if applicable, though this would be a good time not to have one. The ball can also roll out from behind the cushion of air that builds up in front of it, and this you can do little or nothing about. The latter is the one that can happen between fifty yards and a hundred, although it is far from unknown for it not to.

Yes, I think that central spindle would collapse, producing a badly tilted base. Its effect would be bad in a smoothbore and worse in a rifled one. I doubt if it produced any better effect on stability or recoil than a pointed conical base hollow, which would be unlikely to deform.

While aerodynamic stabilization by making the rear of the slug light can be very successful, the Brenneke seems about as far as this can be taken. Other finning, or a long pointed base, seems to produce a tail-wagger. A dodge I know of being used in 19th century France was a nail with its head cast into a lead bullet, to act as a tail. It was a considerable improvement at hitting a target much like an infantry battalion at two or three times conventional smoothbody musket range, although anyone taken prisoner might have to do some fast talking about his motives for shooting bullets with nails sticking out. But it offered no improvement, or very little, at conventional smoothbore hunting range.

[jmort]

"Still working on it and getting close to buying a rifled gun"


​Why not get a rifled barrel? I have three for my 500s

[cpileri]

Hogtamers bullet looks alot like a paradox slug, although the paradox's "stalk" is thicker. And the paradox is only loaded to 850bar (abt 12.3 Kpsi); so it seems the stalk has to be abt that thick (*) to handle heavy pressure loads. from Holland and Holland:

Bullet weight: 12-bore = 740 grains / 48 gram
Bullet diameter: .735" (Fosbery Pattern, solid lead)
Muzzle velocity: *1050 ft./sec. / 320 m/sec.
Muzzle energy: *1840 ft./lbs. / 2500 joules
Service pressure: 3 ¼ tons " / 850 bar

and bbs383ci, yes lots and lots of us are 'into' the triball loads. I'll search for a few links later, but a quick search of your own will produce results.

C-

(*) presuming the brits figured out a thing or two in the decades of fine guncrafting and shooting

[Hogtamer]

Understanding the critique so far and all makes sense. Another possibility then, all with the idea of reducing the weight to produce a more tolerable load: What if only a round nose flat base bullet was cast to .732 at the base, (just the top half of above pic) with the base just thick enough to provide enough bearing surface to stabilize the bullet out of a rifled gun? Can someone calculate the the necessary OAL required and the approximate weight of such a slug? Something around 550 grns perhaps?

[cpileri]

Sorry Hogtamer, I didn't finish my thought. See here:
http://www.shootersforum.com/general-discussion/8119-thoughts-custom-slug-ball-guns.html

132874

now as for your calculated load. I know Turbo1889 can do that math. I'm not savvy enough to do shapes like that, though!
Let me look around for the info...
C-

[cpileri]

Hogtamer,
Maybe like the 2nd slug from the left in this picture?
132876

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/printthread.php?Board=paradox&main=109547&type=post

[Hogtamer]

Do you have specs on that?

[longbow]

Okay, rather than posting photos and taking up a bunch of space, I found info on the same type of slugs I am talking about here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?237841-Brass-and-steel-shotgun-slugs-fired-during-protests-in-Ukraine

This is a design that has been around for some time in Europe and Russia. Not sure if they were made in lead as most of what I see is brass or steel. In fact Greg Sappington was working on a design in brass for smoothbores. They would be heavy in lead if full bore or even standard wad diameter unless the nose (big end) was hollow. This solid design does apparently fly well though personally I have to think that an RNFP or TC design would be more stable at longer range than a full wadcutter.

In post #13 I have a link to the Dixie IXL-DGS slug. This appears to be a modification to the Dixie Dyno-ball that was solid lead with no attached skirt but similarly designed to the brass slugs in the other link above.

Anyway, something to think about.

If I ever get around to machining a few out of lead I will try them out to see how they do.

I guess this is really getting off topic here so further discussion should go back to Randy's thread on a group buy for a mould.

Longbow

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I think hollowing from the front, for the rifled bore, would be less likely to deform than a thin skirt. Here is a picture of the early Express bullets used when they were black powder medium-game cartridges.

132936


These were the bullets which got some hunters quite seriously killed, when they were used on large African game. They tended to break up too quickly, especially if made of hard alloy. This wouldn't make them ineffective on deer, but might cause excessive meat damage, and there would be a risk of failure to penetrate the gristle shield on the shoulders of an old boar. With a Cape buffalo you might as well serve a writ on him. An improvement might be made by filling the hollow with hot-melt glue or a plastic rod.

Some of the bullets illustrated are copper-tubed. I think the most likely reason for this was to avoid accidental damage when dropped, or the entry of dirt. It might also be of some help by avoiding entry of incompressible fluids or tissues. Bullet jackets or fired .22 shells would surely do as well. They are rather like the American Gould bullet, which could be assembled with a fired shell or a live .22 blank to make an exploding bullet. I don't believe they were any more effective on game than an ordinary hollow-point, if indeed as much.

[cpileri]

no sir. I just ran across the picture online.

C-


Do you have specs on that?

[bikerbeans]

A friend of mine has had Acurate make a couple of nose pour slug molds. He then had another fellow make the hollow base pins, IIRC, Accurate doesn't offer a HB pin. I will try and find out who makes the pins.

BB

[Cap'n Morgan]

Hogtamer.

C's paradox boolit would weigh approx. 720 grains in pure lead.

A .732" 550 grains round nose slug (true semi-circle nose profile) should have a total length of .59" with a .224 long cylindrical base.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Sorry Hogtamer, I didn't finish my thought. See here:
http://www.shootersforum.com/general-discussion/8119-thoughts-custom-slug-ball-guns.html

132874

now as for your calculated load. I know Turbo1889 can do that math. I'm not savvy enough to do shapes like that, though!
Let me look around for the info...
C-

I would have trouble doing the math too, at least without a bullet and scale to discard a few failed attempts. But I think that drawing would be extremely heavy in lead. The "bore" sizes of big-game rifles were usually heavier than most shotguns, and/or fired under such circumstances that a bit of discomfort was neither here nor there. Paradox rifled-choke shotguns started out in most gauges, but the larger ones mostly gave way, numerically speaking, to the 12ga., and I suspect most people treated it as a versatile shotgun rather than a versatile rifle.

It might do very well in zinc alloy, possibly with slightly narrower hands to engage the rifling. I don't believe zinc can be either cast well enough to shape under gravity alone, or swaged. But there is surely an opening for some company to die-cast them.

[Hogtamer]

Cap'n Morgan, that's great info. And now (drum roll) the big question.....would it shoot?? Is that enough base to engage the rifling and stabilize the boolit out of a 1:36 barrel?

[Cap'n Morgan]

I guess it would shoot, but a hollow base would probably improve things, moving the center of gravity (CG) in front of the center of pressure (CP).

Both these boolits have the same weight, but the hollow base boolit is longer by .17":

http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag248/driftwood4/Slugs_zpsqnzlvebs.jpg

The cavity could be filled with hot-glue to keep it from collapsing - or some sort of putty filler. The same mold could easily be made to cast both types of boolits.

[Hogtamer]

A full bore slug of moderate weight, front heavy, fill with hot glue and load a solid wad column, what's not to like? Perhaps a lube grove? And who will make this for me? Thanks Cap'n!

[longbow]

If anyone is interested for rifled gun I have a copy of the Kynoch drawing that I believe James Gates posted some time ago. It is a poor but readable copy. I believe the HP is 750 grs. and the solid is 780 grs. so fairly heavy.

Might as well post it as talk about it:

133030

As for the hollow base weight forward design, I still like turbo's design the best (the one bikerbeans is shooting in 10 ga.).

Hogtamer:

If you want I can model that slug Carl posted and get an accurate weight for you. It looks very much like the Dixie Tusker also posted by James Gates:

133031

and hah! The pic Carl posted is also a James Gates slug. The Tusker weighs 600 grs. and is intended for rifled guns even though it is hollow base. I shot some through my smoothbore but got poor accuracy largely due to then being sized to 0.727" while my bore is 0.729" but they did fly nose on to 75 yards. Large groups but round holes so stable. I figured a short attached wad would make them suitable for smoothbore. The material and attachment is my stumbling block... still.

So the Terminator would be around 600 grs. Dimensions are almost identical to the Tusker. Personally I think those would be excellent slugs for rifled gun and at reasonable weight. No need to model after all.

Just my thoughts... again.

Longbow

PS: if that Terminator is solid then it will of course weigh more than the Tusker. Likely around 700 grs.

[jmort]

Lot of us looking for an answer to the elusive question, an accurate slug that is not crazy heavy. It seems to be shaped like a Unicorn or a Brenneke.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The slug on the right in Post 23 looks like the Lyman Forster on the outside, but with an internal cavity tapering considerably towards the front. That should resist deformation better, and could be accomplished by working on, or replacing, Lyman's hollow base pin.

If it is desired to use a hollow base slug in a rifled bore, though, the Lyman one is undersized. For one that did fit the bore and was shot without a sleeve wad, powder coating might be worth looking into.

[longbow]

If my Lyman Foster mould is any indication it casts at 0.705" and from other posts, indicating that some moulds cast down to 0.680" I have to think that powder coating will not make the difference. That and the whole Lyman Foster construction is just too thin for my liking. And the fact that for paper punching and hunting a largish meplat is nice... makes big holes. Round nose just tears through.

I do like the Tusker or the turbo design. Only problem with the Tusker is that I do not think it has enough shuttlecock weight distribution for smoothbore. I do believe it could be an excellent slug for full bore or wad slug for rifled gun though.

In fact, if I had a rifled gun I think I would be getting Accurate moulds to be machining a "Tusker" mould as we speak, then I would make the base plug. I am actually thinking that I might just do that anyway and get a two cavity mould with one cavity at 0.730" and one at 0.675" - 0.680" nose band and 0.660" to 0.670" base band to suit "standard" wads.

I am pretty sure they would not totally stabilize out of a smoothbore but with an added attached wad they should.

Unfortunately I have to wait for my tax refund before I have any toy money at all.

Longbow

[Ballistics in Scotland]

For the rifled bore there are some extremely promising-looking bullets on Page 15 of the NEI catalogue.

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html

[white eagle]

I have the mold in question
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/kempobb/abnewtarget.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/kempobb/media/abnewtarget.jpg.html),
shot this out of my USH at 50 yds been playing with adding a hp in it as well
shoots real good for me

[Hogtamer]

white eagle, gotta have details! What mold is that and what weight is the slug? Is there a hollow base option? My quest is for a 550 gr or so full bore slug that will not be so punishing to shoot. Thanks for your input!

[longbow]

I am going to try something I have been thinking about but didn't get to. It will be pretty easy to modify one of my moulds to produce a Nessler Ball which were reputed to increase accuracy and range of smoothbore muzzleloaders. Some of the claims seem a bit far fetched but Nessler Balls were used in the Crimean War and by several European countries while rifled guns were gaining a foothold in militaries.

Here is a link and picture of one I just found with dimensions:

http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/006633/6633304.jpg

I had previously "traced" one in a CAD program then modeled it in 3D. That one weighs in at 590 grs. I will see what this one weighs after I model it.

I always thought these looked too short and stubby to work but the more I read about them the more I want to try one. Also, Hogtamer and others say the Lee 7/8 oz. slug shoots quite well for them and it is short and stubby though I suspect much more weight forward design than the Nessler ball.

I may get this done this weekend. I will post results and it it works out I will load and test.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

That ball must still be rated "top secret" by Crimean military intelligence, as the link provided lead to a "403 Forbidden" notice. You must have tripped a National Security wire Longbow!
Ditto the Lee 7/8 weight forward theory. How much would a full bore duplicate of that weigh? Cap'n Morgan's hollow base looks close, minus the key but with thicker skirts.

[longbow]

I dunno... maybe there are choppers and guys dressed all in black heading for my place now.

I just checked though and the link opens for me.

Here I'll try the main page and you can get to the Nessler plate from there:

http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/36/1049168-0.html

(http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/36/1049168-0.htmlNow)Now... it is a Russian site. Could Homeland Security be blocking it in the States? I wouldn't have thought that 150 year old lead bullet for smoothbore technology would be in the forefront of security issues but who knows?

I just figure if the Nessler ball performs even close to reports, it has to be at least as good as Lee slugs.

Just in case you can't get to the site, here is a PDF from the model I just did:

Well... now I can seem to add an attachment. SABOTAGE!

I'll try again later. In any case, just Google Nessler Ball, Balle Nessler, Crimean War bullets or maybe Nessler bullet. That oughta get you somewhere.

Wait... I hear pucketa, pucketa, pucketa in the distance... I better go!

Longbow

[longbow]

Okay it is working now. Here is a 3D PDF of the model I made from the Russian pic:

133845

Once you open the PDF you can use the mouse buttons to rotate, zoom and pan.

And here is a pic of the original Russian drawing:

133846
See! Short and stubby!

Longbow

[white eagle]

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=73-770S-D.png,
it weighs 770 gr. not sure if Tom does HB option or not

[jmort]

No hollow-point/base from Accurate.

[RMc]

Remember:

Traditional smoothbore shotgun bore diameters are all over the map.

Rifled shotgun barrels have to be reasonably standard.

[BartSr]

Hogtamer,
Maybe like the 2nd slug from the left in this picture?
132876

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/printthread.php?Board=paradox&main=109547&type=post

The third one (middle) looks very similar to the "thug-slug's" that are sold online except they have the wad attached. I shoot these.

[longbow]

jmort:

Tom will make a mould to accept a hollow base pin, you just have to make it yourself or get someone to make one for you.

It could be a viable option.

Brooks is who made turbo's moulds and they looked very nice so there's another option.

I got to test out the Nessler balls though I do not hold out too much hope for that stubby little slug. If it works though it is a nice little slug and about the weight I like. While short and stubby the balance point seems pretty good so maybe...

Longbow

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I am a long way from my books at the moment, but there is a contemporary drawing showing a very wide range of early to mid-19th century bullets, and the variety is quite amazing. Others besides the Nessler had that central stem, sometimes rather longer, and I wonder at the reasoning behind it.

Maybe it is just to seal the bore and yet avoid too much reduction in weight, which adds shocking power and range if you can stand the recoil. Military muskets were heavy, and infantry soldiers weren't required to like it. But it may also have been thought, rightly or wrongly, that less forward concentration of weight produced a more stable bullet.

A jacketed boat-tail bullet only reduces drag much at low velocities. It would take a long pointed base to do so at the velocities that matter to most civilian shooters, and I believe the reason it hasn't been used is that it would produce tail-wagging and, with a rifled bore, a spiral flight. We talk of the shuttlecock effect, but I don't believe plastic shuttlecocks have ever been made with a continuous conical skirt, although this could presumably be made narrower. They have a pierced skirt, sometimes in a pattern quite different from the feathered version. It is for people on an immensely high salary to know this works, but I think it must be something to do with the leakage of air into the skirt, and the conical version would wobble.

I think the reason bullets like this never caught on for military smoothbores was that so many of them were abominably badly bored (as even good civilian muzzle-loaders were, compared to the standards soon imposed when the customer could look down the barrel), and inconsistent in dimensions between one musket and the next. This doesn't deny the value they might have for us today.

I think an experimental Nessler bullet could be made by modifying the hollow-base pin of the old-style Lyman slug mould. Alternatively anybody with a lathe could make a tubular die (bore to match the gun's, and therefore not requiring change), and as many nose and base punches as new ideas occurred. A lead ball could then be swaged into being with nothing more complex than a large vice, or by hitting one of the punches with a hammer.