Glock 9mm bullets tumbling at 7 yards, whats wrong with my load?

[kryogen]

Edit:

I have solved the issue by using a 38 special expander to expand the case deeper and not just flare the mouth. The bullet seating was swaging the bullet down to a smaller diameter, which resulted in tumbling and leading. Thanks all for the help.
I now use 357 bullets in my 356 glock and it works fine.



Tested some loads tonight, cast
Lee 120TC, hi tek coated, sized at .358 (bore is 357), 5gn power pistol (1000 fps), OAL within spec and to fit barrel.

Some of the boolits were tumbling at 7 yards. That's quite a fail.

Does anyone have a clue why ?!? What should I do about that?

Edit:

NO, i'm not using FCD.

[kryogen]

Would it be easier to just get a lone wolf barrel and use that for cast, and keep the oem for plated?

[Sgtonory]

I gave up on cast in 9mm glock with stock barrel. 40 and 45 worked fine. Got a lone wolf barrel and very happy with it. No more tumbling

[bruce381]

try tumble lube or pan lube see what that does.

[Ausglock]

What alloy are you using?
I have run 1000's of these 120gn bullets in G17 and G34 factory barrels with no issues.
I use 2.6.92 alloy.

[gloob]

In my case, the problem was solved with a bigger expander.

I dunno how soft your bullets are, but you might want to pull some and measure the diameter at the base. My .357-8 bullets were getting swaged by the case as small as 0.353". Most commercial bullets are much harder than what I'm using and won't get squished, but it's worth checking out if your bullets are tumbling.

FYI, I shoot cast 9mm in both a Glock and a LW barrel. Since sorting out my expander problem, I prefer the stock barrel. Impeccable accuracy, and it doesn't foul a bit. With the regular expander, I had full bore leading after a single shot, and bullets were tumbling. And now, I haven't cleaned it in over a thousands cast rounds, and it looks like new. Same can't be said for the LW barrel, nor any standard rifled barrel I have ever shot plain cast bullets through. There are some who believe 9mm cast bullets need to be hard, or that aftermarket barrels are preferred for cast. But my experience contradicts this. The only trick for me was using big 'nuff bullets and a big 'nuff expander.

[kryogen]

ok will pull a loaded round and measure base width tonight. I have 2 left that I didnt shoot, for this purpose.
my lead is scrap WW 100%. hi-tek coated.

my flare was enough to put the boolit in the case and it holds there fine, and seating doesnt scrape the coating on a pulled bullet. But I don't think that I measured a pulled boolit so I will tonight, thanks.

(no, I'm not trying pan or tumble alox lubing). I am either finding a way to cast with hi-tek or I'm selling all this and buying jacketed. screw the greasy lube.

[ioon44]

Kryogen what gloob said in post #6 is right on, I had this same issue with a Glock 19 factory barrel and a Glock 22 with lonewolf 9mm conversion.
My expander was only .351" my pulled boolits were about .353"and this was with 6-2-92 alloy.


I think scrap WW is a little soft for 9mm, you could add some lino to harden them or you could drop your tray of boolits in cold water after the last hi-tek bake this will harden them after about a week of curing.


I have been using hi-tek Red copper powder and sizing boolits to .357", loads ran 1180fps and great accuracy with no leading.

[Shiloh]

Bigger expander or larger boolit. I had a larger epander made. Expanders seem to be made for jacketed bullets.

Shiloh

[Love Life]

Try water dropping your bullets when they come out of the oven. My glocks tend to do better with harder bullets.

[GBertolet]

I agree with the theory of the .358 bullets are being swaged down below your .357 bore diameter. I had a similar issue with a 9mm, having a .357 groove diameter. A typical 9mm expander ball is .353-.354, which is intended for jacketed bullets. A 4 to 5 thou reduction from .358 is quite a bit. I have RCBS dies, and I purchased a 38cal expander plug. I had to shorten the end a little, due to the shorter 9mm case, but it worked.

Hardening your bullets, as already suggested, might work, as it will minimize the swaging effect when seating bullets after using the 9mm expander.

[Love Life]

RCBS also makes an awesome gas checked 9mm mould.

[kryogen]

can I just use the LEE 38 special powder through expander die for 9mm?

[ioon44]

can I just use the LEE 38 special powder through expander die for 9mm?

Check into a Lee 38 S&W expander should be close to the right length.

Are you using the lee Factory crimp die?

[gloob]

+1, Lee S&W plug works great for me. I also have an NOE "M die" .356/.360 powder-thru expander, which is a little pricier. They both fit into my Lee 9mm flare die body.

100% WW? Air-cooled? Sure, that's exactly what I use with perfect results.



(no, I'm not trying pan or tumble alox lubing). I am either finding a way to cast with hi-tek or I'm selling all this and buying jacketed. screw the greasy lube.
Tumble lube doesn't have to be greasy, FYI. I started out with LLA, which is a tiny bit greasy; it takes a long time to completely dry, anyway. Then I used 45/45/10, and that was better. I'm now using cooked off Lee Liquid Alox and beeswax with no solvent in it. It's a hard solid at room temp. I put a couple big chips over a pile of freshly cast bullets in a cake pan and melt the chips with a heat gun before tumbling. A batch of 300-500 9mm bullets is bone dry and ready to load as soon as they are cool. Out of my locked breech guns, the smoke is about the same as factory jacketed ammo. I can rapidfire indoors without any noticeable difference. Tackiness is almost none. The only downside that I notice is that I have to clean out my seating stem every now and again.

Let us know your experience with hi-tek. Cost, source, application, etc. Curious minds what to know.

[fredj338]

You are using the LFCD aren't you? That could be the issue, even if you use a larger expander. Bullets tumble from being undersized or too long for the vel. Pull a seated & crimped bullet & measure the dia.

[kryogen]

You are using the LFCD aren't you? That could be the issue, even if you use a larger expander. Bullets tumble from being undersized or too long for the vel. Pull a seated & crimped bullet & measure the dia.

no I'm not using FCD. will measure and report.

Probably, the lee 9mm powder through expanding die isnt expanding enough and it's sizing my 358 boolit down. going to measure one now. will report.
Might just buy the 38 S&W expander then for a plug and play upgrade.

Hoe does the dillon xl650 powder through die deal with the cast 9mm? right now I load with a loadmaster but I consider getting a xl650

[kryogen]

Ok, here it is:

I use the 356 lee mold. it drops with out of round anywhere from 357 to 360 boolits.
My 358 lee sizer sizes to 3575.... so I have to open this up.
My lee 9mm expanding die probably doesnt expand enough as the pulled boolits are .355 to .357 out of round.

Now, my question is. If I open the sizer to 3580, and buy the 38 S&W expander, am I going to be fine or I should buy another mold, or try to use the aluminum tape trick to make my mold slightly open by a few mils, to drop boolits 2 mils too large, and then properly size to .3580?

Jeez. Another 300 cast boolits that I'll have to re-melt because they are undersize.

[Ausglock]

My G34 Factory barrel.
Lee 120Con. dropped at .359 using 2.6.92 alloy.
given 2 coats of HITEK.
Sized to .357.
Loaded with 4.2gn W231 in Win 9mm cases on a Dillon 550 press.

If your sizer is sizing to .3575, Leave it alone! it is fine as it is. Harden your alloy!!!!!!!

[kryogen]

My G34 Factory barrel.
Lee 120Con. dropped at .359 using 2.6.92 alloy.
given 2 coats of HITEK.
Sized to .357.
Loaded with 4.2gn W231 in Win 9mm cases on a Dillon 550 press.

If your sizer is sizing to .3575, Leave it alone! it is fine as it is. Harden your alloy!!!!!!!

my lee powder through expanding die is not opening the case enough and the recovered boolits have a .355 base.
That's the issue? The only difference is that you have a dillon press with dillon expander die I guess, maybe it opens the case enough?

[edctexas]

I shoot cast in 9mm in an H&K P90. I had the same tumbling problem until I went to a slightly larger boolit and a harder alloy. The boolits are PC coated and water cooled after the PC heating. I use Alliant Power Pistol or Green Dot. PP works better than green dot. I get a few lead flakes occasionally from the leade area. A patch with Kroil loosens that up and it comes out on the next patch. I am using a NOE 124 gr RN boolit from water dropped WW + tin.

Ed C

[fredj338]

I would try a larger exp first. The size sounds fine, but going to 0.358" probably wouldn't hurt.

[gloob]

+1. I would also suggest you don't even need to size those bullets. I don't know how much size hi tek adds. But if your Glock is like mine, it will probably chamber and shoot your unsized bullets just fine. I don't size mine and I have never had a failure to feed. My Lee mold is dropping them about the same size as yours, same alloy. I don't care if they're out of round unless that causes feeding issues. As long as they're big enough they come out the same shape as the barrel.

[kryogen]

I will try to use the 38 special die alone to expand and flare, then the 9mm die just to drop powder. Might work. Or the opposite. Also, I will try opening the sizer die to 358, it will also polish it and its ez to do so why not.
also some 2 mil aluminum tape could beagle the mold to drop 360. Then size to 358 then load in a properly expanded case. Then it should work i guess. Will try and report on friday. Wont shoot till monday though i guess.

[kryogen]

PM from Dusty Bannister
"So you are going to cast fresh bullets, no mention of quenching from the mold, and shoot them on monday? If you are using a low antimony alloy, there is not sufficient time to let the cast bullets age. Soft bullets might not be strong enough to shoot and this could be part of the trouble. Low antimony alloys could use 2-3 weeks to age harden. Dusty"

My reply:

Should fresh cast wheel weights, no water drop, hi tek coated, be ok to shoot the same day, or I really have to water drop after the 2nd cooking and then wait for hardening?

[ioon44]

Dusty Bannister
"So you are going to cast fresh bullets, no mention of quenching from the mold, and shoot them on monday? If you are using a low antimony alloy, there is not sufficient time to let the cast bullets age. Soft bullets might not be strong enough to shoot and this could be part of the trouble. Low antimony alloys could use 2-3 weeks to age harden. Dusty"

My reply:

Should fresh cast wheel weights, no water drop, hi tek coated, be ok to shoot the same day, or I really have to water drop after the 2nd cooking and then wait for hardening?

Any time you cast or heat lead alloy it goes through a Harding process. I always wait 3 days to size and shoot air cooled cast boolits also the same with hi-tek baked boolits. Water dropped about 2 weeks. Just the way alloy works.

[garym1a2]

I use the Le 38 S&W expander in my 9mm lee powder die also.

Check into a Lee 38 S&W expander should be close to the right length.

Are you using the lee Factory crimp die?

[Dusty Bannister]

Dusty Bannister
"So you are going to cast fresh bullets, no mention of quenching from the mold, and shoot them on monday? If you are using a low antimony alloy, there is not sufficient time to let the cast bullets age. Soft bullets might not be strong enough to shoot and this could be part of the trouble. Low antimony alloys could use 2-3 weeks to age harden. Dusty"

My reply:

Should fresh cast wheel weights, no water drop, hi tek coated, be ok to shoot the same day, or I really have to water drop after the 2nd cooking and then wait for hardening?


As you know, this was sent as a PM so since you brought it into the thread, here is a link to a very recent post that you may have failed to read. It addresses this situation specifically about age hardening of quenched bullets.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?271121-Water-quenching

I also hope that you check on the age hardening process described in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd edition which shows the progressive hardening of bullets cast of tin, antimony and lead. If you do not have that manual, go to the LASC site link on the bottom of the forum page and check that out as well. Dusty

[kryogen]

Thanks dusty, will read that. I prefer to say it all on the thread so I can get everyone's help and make everyone benefit from it.

[popper]

WD out of the oven they should be ready to LOAD in a couple days. AC needs a week min. Just waiting a week decreased my groups by 3".

[rintinglen]

Check into a Lee 38 S&W expander should be close to the right length.

Are you using the lee Factory crimp die?
Use the Lee 38 S&W expander--I bought one from Titan (shameless plug for a sponsor) and my 9mm cast loading is much better.

[crashguy]

I'm with the expander crowd.... I have the lyman-m die in 38 spl ( it reaches deeper into the 9mm case to prevent swaging while stuffing a lead bullet in) ..and use range scrap lead as an alloy ( if you could call it alloy) in a lee 124 truncated and round nose that are powder coated to 1000 fps through a storm lake barrel in a G19 .... without issues. The m-die made the difference for me... no factory crimp die either.. just use the seating die to smooth the lip back.

[KTM400]

I had the same issue way back. Do not mess with your dies yet. Harden up your alloy first. It took some trial and error but I solved the 9mm factory Glock barrel problem. I have run thousands of powder coated cast lead bullets through Glock barrels in the last 2 & 1/2 years. Two 17s and a 34. I have also run PC cast .40 through a G22 in limited division.

If you do go to a new barrel I recommend staying away from Lone Wolf bbls. I have tried 2 LW and I like Storm Lake much better. Cost difference is about $50 and SL is worth it.

[kryogen]

well, the small expander is resizing the boolit.... seems logical to me to get the 38 s&w expander.
Only issue is that I'm buying an xl650 press and it wont be any use.

How can I easily have the xl650 press do a fine expanding job?

[MtGun44]

Hardness doesn't change significantly with time if air cooled, only if cooled rapidly by dumping in
water.

Hardening is not necessary for 9mm in my experience. I use AC WWt alloy and have no
problems in many different 9mms, but not a Glock.

Check out the sticky on "setting up a new 9mm for boolits" may save you some time.

[kryogen]

Hardness doesn't change significantly with time if air cooled, only if cooled rapidly by dumping in
water.

Hardening is not necessary for 9mm in my experience. I use AC WWt alloy and have no
problems in many different 9mms, but not a Glock.

Check out the sticky on "setting up a new 9mm for boolits" may save you some time.

I have read that thread multiple times.

I think that we have figured out that my main issue is that my expander is too small and bullets get sized down by the case. I'll try to buy a 38 S&W expander

[Forrest r]

+1 on a lyman m-die

Once you have the die body (38spl) you can buy other expander profiles/sizes for 32cals/45acps/44mags/ect from lyman for $5 apiece or buy custom plugs from companies like ch. The expander plugs/tips simply screw in & the m-die body is a standard 7/8-14 thread.

I thought there was someone on this website that is making custom expanders for the lee dies?

I use nothing more than range scrap & pc my 9mm bullets. Sized to .357 and using a m-die made for the 38spl/357's I've ran 124g boolits in the 1400fps range with no issues.

No issues ='s no leading, no tumbling, just groups around 1" @ 25yds without working too hard on several loads.

Never water dropped them either. Your pc coating should be doing 2/1000th's minimum, I've been getting 3/1000th's pc coating (.0015 per side) with 3 different powders on 20+ cast bullets. I do let them sit for at least a week before using them.

You shouldn't have to water drop your pc'd bullets. I've ran 308 bullets at 2300fps+ with nothing more than range scrap/pc that sat for a week.

fwiw:
The only time I've ever seen bullets tumble is when they were undersized, too soft of an alloy or the bbl was badly leaded. Your pc'd bullets aren't too soft, that leaves severe bbl leading or undersized bullets. A group shot with a 38,000psi load with nothing more that pc'd range scrap that was air cooled and sat for 1 week.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/44contender_zpsf270843a.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/44contender_zpsf270843a.jpg.html)

Some recovered 308 bullets that were pc'd. That 2300fps bullet is a 230g range scrap/pc'd/air cooled bullet that was loaded with a 37g bl-c2 load in the 48,000psi range While the groups were nothing to write home about, there was no bullet tumbling, there was nothing but clean round holes in the target.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/shotboolits_zps66df2631.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/shotboolits_zps66df2631.jpg.html)

A 10-shot plinking load in the 25,000psi range doing 1700fps using range scrap/air cooled pc'd bullets.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/50ampflier_zpsaadf309a.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/50ampflier_zpsaadf309a.jpg.html)

I'd be looking at bullet size/fit, pc'd bullets can handle the pressure and the speeds. I've only shot 15,000+ pc'd bullets so far in the 9mm/38spl/357's/44spl's/44mag's/45acp's/308's. All of them with nothing more than range scrap/pc/air cooled and I've never had any leading, tumbling, egg shaped holes in the targets, etc. The only thing I have noticed is the pc'd bullets seem to smoke a little more with full house loads of power pistol. One of my favorite pc'd bullet loads is a full house load of pp (8.0g/33,000+psi-158g bullet) in a 357. I only shot 4,000+ of these but they do seem to have a little more smoke than anything else I've shot/tested.
good luck

[spfd1903]

"I thought there was someone on this website that is making custom expanders for the lee dies? "

NOE offers a line of plugs that can be used in the Lee Universal Expander die

[kryogen]

so the 38 special M die will work with 9mm cases length?
would open them just fine and I would just have to use the lee powder drop to... drop powder.
I hate the lee powder drop grabbing the case when flaring anyway.

[gloob]

Lyman M dies come in two body lengths, AFAIK. Short for all pistol and some rifle, and a longer body for longer rifle. But they might also have two different length of the adjusting stem? I'm not sure on that.

Anyways, if you buy a 38special M die, it will work on 9mm cases. I suspect their 38 special plug measures .355 in diameter. That's 2 mils under nominal jacketed bullet diameter. That seems to be most peoples' standard size for expander plugs, including Lyman. This is still going to be almost 3 mils smaller than your cast bullets. It will probably work fine, but there might be a little swaging, still.


NOE offers a line of plugs that can be used in the Lee Universal Expander die.
They offer two different plugs, in fact. They make solid expanders for use in the Universal die body for around 6.50. And they make powder thru expanders with the proper length for use in the regular Lee flare dies for that caliber. These cost around 9.50. And NOE makes their expanders in multiple sizes. You can go up a size or two larger than the Lyman 38 special plug. And you can use the Universal plugs in a regular Lee flare die, if you put a cut dowel in the die.


I hate the lee powder drop grabbing the case when flaring anyway.
Yes, me too. A piece of dowel or brass tubing makes this go away, simply enough.

FWIW, I find that as long as the expander plug is no larger than the bullet, you still get full neck tension. So for instance, if your bullet was sized to 0.3575", and it had a full .3575" diameter throughout, a 0.357" diameter expander plug would work fine. A 0.356" would most probably work great, too. A 0.355" plug is certainly much better than a standard 9mm plug, but it's where I would start drawing the line for softer alloys.

FYI, the M die has some other pros and cons. The plugs cost about 9.00, and no custom sizes. But they are easy to turn down, yourself, with just a drill and some sandpaper and/or stones. The M die also is prone to loosening while you are using it. It's almost guaranteed to happen to you, and you won't notice because the plug is completely hidden inside the die body. I add O-rings or compression washers to my M dies in two locations. Locktite typically also works.

Another thing to watch out for: you were talking about polishing your sizer out to .358 and beagling your mold. You actually don't even know if these bullets will chamber in your gun, yet, because your .3575 bullets were being swaged. I would hold out and leave the bullets alone until you get your new expander. I am confident your bullets will shoot great once you get a .355-356" expander. Maybe even .357". Based on my experience with oversize .357+ cast bullets and a Glock, a .356" expander is probably perfect for cast bullets. But a .355" expander would most likely work fine and also probably work with jacketed bullets, as well. FTR, my Lee 38S&W expander measures around .355- .355 1/2, if memory serves. And it works great with my AC WW bullets. But my NOE expander at .356/360 is my newest toy.

[kryogen]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=91&products_id=1205
ok found it, it's this I guess? 38P

38 Cal. expander plug .356" x .360" To use with Lee Powder Through Neck Expanding Die Turns it in to a true neck expander like a Lyman M-die.

Looks great, easy fix. Will try to order this and start with this first, then see about the boolits later like you said.
I asked them if they can ship to canada.

what if I switch to an xl650 press? will have to have a custom dillon powder funnel made?

[kryogen]

Ok, another update. The glock 17 barrel is 356 after re-measuring. So I'll size to 357.
I have used a 38 special powder through die with a bolt in it to make it work for 9mm. Expands just fine. 357 boolits are still 357 after pulling. (loosing the powder through function).

Will try again next week, should work better now with properly expanded cases and pulled boolits still 1 mil over bore.

[Geezer in NH]

I thought Powder Coat was the solver for all leading problems?? Need harder alloy with it????????????

[Love Life]

Neither powder coat, HI-Tek, or lizard tears are the solver for leading problems. They replace traditional lube, but you still have to follow the rule of fit.

[HI-TEK]

Neither powder coat, HI-Tek, or lizard tears are the solver for leading problems. They replace traditional lube, but you still have to follow the rule of fit.

Love Life,
Well put.
It does not matter what is used, but if engineering requirements are not met, no powder coat or Hi-Tek coat will fix problems.
None of the coatings/lubes are an indestructible barrier to stop Leading, if all physical parameters are not first met.
I am not trying to be critical, but it is difficult to understand why any one would want to short cut by trying to fix a problem with a lube/coating, when they may not first have the correct equipment, or not a correct set up.
To understand failures, when changing any parameters, using a know alloy with known composition/hardness, only one parameter should be changed at each step, to determine the effect that change has made.
If you dont know alloy, hardness, correct bore/projectile diameters, etc, etc first,... then it becomes a very frustrating exercise to find the right parameters that actually work with any lube, as you really cannot determine if the lube or other parameters, possibly combined, are cause of any specific problem.
It is a simple case of following load handbook guidelines first.

[kryogen]

Now that all my parameters are set fine, this should work this time for 9mm....
if it doesnt work, then I'll coat 3 times and water drop, then wait a week to shoot the next batch. We will see.
Right now mine are just scrap WW double coated air cooled.
But, I have solved all the other issues. case expanding, bullet size, scraping, etc.

[MtGun44]

Larger is probably the real solution. I have never found any need to go harder
than 10-12 BHN in a wide range of 9mms with a good lube (LBT soft blue or
NRA 50-50) in a conventional lube design - specifically the Lee 356 120 TC,
now all are run at .358 diameter for Browning, Sig, KelTek, Beretta, and Astra
guns. Not convinced that PC is a better solution than conventional lube
for leading, and this thread seems to verify that it is no panacea.

I really wonder if the powder coat is grinding away your rifling with each shot
it doesn't seem like any kind of a lube to me, and it was intended as
paint so there are certainly fine particles of various colorants and
binders, etc in it - how hard and abrasive are they? I know that lead
alloy and sticky waxy lube is at about the minimum possible wear.

[kryogen]

Yeah, the only thing I don't know about that brown copper hi tek is how abrasive it is on the barrel.
I hate tumble lubing because it's greasy and messy and it goops dies.

But at this point, I'm only shooting the glock 9mm, and if the barrel is ruined after 10 000 shots, I'll buy another one and not really bother to care...

[HI-TEK]

Yeah, the only thing I don't know about that brown copper hi tek is how abrasive it is on the barrel.
I hate tumble lubing because it's greasy and messy and it goops dies.

But at this point, I'm only shooting the glock 9mm, and if the barrel is ruined after 10 000 shots, I'll buy another one and not really bother to care...

To put your mind at ease, the Hi-Tek coatings were not designed to be abrasive.
The reason why you have clean barrels after shooting Hi-Tek coated alloys, is that the coatings all separate barrel from alloy, don't melt, fuse or leave deposits, and stay on the alloy during firing.
Most importantly is that they work without leaving messy clean up job.
You are correct, that commercial Powder coatings generally, as used in coating steel, all contain various fillers and minerals which may be abrasive. I don't believe that any work has been done to determine abrasive properties of such powder coatings when used in coating Lead alloys.
Over many years, no one who has shot thousands of rounds using Hi-Tek coatings have come back to advise that their guns were worn out.
With using Glocks, the reason in the majority why barrels "to wear out" one reason may be, is due to having to clean with extremely corrosive/aggressive cleaners, to remove Copper deposits that result from using Jacketed and plated alloys.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume, that users of any lube systems, want to minimise clean up, get good results, and use their guns as long as possible without major accumulating ongoing expenses and with minimum damage to their guns.

[kryogen]

The brown copper leaves a "grainy texture" on the bullet. What are the grains made of?

[Love Life]

Probably from moisture gassing off during baking.

I have shot over 6,000 rds in my model 28 in 38 special using HI-TEK coatings. I have slugged after every 1,000-ish rds. I have not been able to measure an increase in diameter yet. Take that for what it's worth.

I have fired many thousands of rds of HI-TEK coated bullets in various Glocks with factory barrels, no measurable difference in diameter from slugging the barrels when new and slugging at intervals over time. Once again, take that for what it's worth.

I haven't fired as many powder coated bullets yet, but I have fired enough to believe that if they were abrading the barrel that a measurable difference in diameter in a slug now VS when the barrel was new would show by now. No measurable differences noted. Once again, take that for what it's worth.

All anecdotal, and read my signature line. There have been many theories and assumptions concerning these coatings over the last couple of years, and all of it can be put to rest if more people just used the common measuring tools on a reloader's bench.

[edctexas]

Some PC looks grainy but is smooth nearly slick. The HF powders can look grainy and some other brands that I bought locally. I have been surprised every cleaning at how little effort it takes to clean a gun that has shot PCed boolits. PC does not totally eliminate any and all leading. It is amazing in a conventionally rifled barrel with leade to the rifling. In my H&K polygonal barrels, the PC coating only ever leads a trace at the leade. One patch with Kroil removes it. I have tried some experiments with spinning a PC'd boolit in a drill press against a steel plate. It does not seem to do anything but polish the spot. You can run the test for 30 minutes and not measure any dimensional change on the spot (with a mike). The steel is shinier but not worn. And it is only mild steel not barrel steel.

Ed C

[gloob]

I have been surprised every cleaning at how little effort it takes to clean a gun that has shot PCed boolits. PC does not totally eliminate any and all leading.
Color me unimpressed. I have no fouling in my 9mm and 45ACP Glock barrels shooting cast bullets. "No fouling" as in none, nada, zip. I haven't run a brush down the bores in years. I don't even have any Chore Boys in my cleaning kit, anymore. Every now and then I will run a patch, just to clean out the powder to verify I'm good to go. And the barrels look like new - chamber, leade/throat, and bore all shiny as a mirror.

I just started shooting cast in my 40 caliber guns. Hopefully, I will achieve the same success - in my Glock barrels, at least. First time out, I got just a hint of fouling; compared to my 9mm/45 Glocks, it feels like total fail.

[kryogen]

gloob, what do you use to coat?

Oh and mr bulletfeeder makes a dillon powder funnel that takes care to do proper expanding for 40$ or so. Probably worth it if you need all stations like with a bullet feeder or powder check.

Right now I just use a separate lee 38 die to expand in an avail station. Works #1. Thanks.

[flyingrhino]

I use the Mr. Bulletfeeder expanders in 45, 9mm and 38spl. The little extra size is all that is needed. I load on a 650xl. Get them from Rick here in the US. If you buy from Double Alpha they are more expensive AND the shipping from overseas is ridiculous. Google it. I don't know what the policies are on putting a web link in here so I won't. His original company is RAK Systems.

[gloob]

gloob, what do you use to coat?
I don't coat. I am shooting plain cast bullets.

In my stock Glock 21, all I use is my credit card. I got these results (and excellent accuracy) with the first bullet I tried. This happens to be MBC IDP#4. I also like that it has a roll crimp groove, so I can taper crimp this ammo while seating. My G21 needs a pretty decent crimp.

In my stock G19, I am using a variant of Lee "Liquid" Alox on my AC WW bullets. What I do is take some dried out, solidified Lee Liquid Alox and put that in a mint tin. Then I put a slightly bigger chunk of beeswax in there. Then I put just a tiny amount of paraffin wax in there. Then I set the tin into a frying pan with a half inch of water in it and turn on the stove.

The paraffin melts first, then the beeswax, then finally after a good long while, the Lee "Solid" Alox will melt. And herein lies the entire purpose for adding the wax - the lower melting point. I do it so that when I use the lube, later, it's easier to melt. Dried out LLA is actually hard as heck and essentially nontacky. It's only sticky because of the solvents that are initially present.

Once the mixture cools, it's basically solid wax. To apply, I put 300ish 9mm bullets into a cake pan. Break a few chips of lube and place on top. Then I shoot it with a heat gun until the lube melts. Then I set the heat gun on the bench, pointing up, and I tumble the cake pan over the heat gun until I get the coverage I want. This takes a couple of minutes, altogether. Let cool, and the bullets are ready to handle and load, immediately. There's no drying time.

So there's no secret sauce. If the bullet fits and the load is right, and your barrel doesn't have strictures, you can more than likely shoot cast bullets with little to no leading. (I think Glock barrels might be the only way to get NO leading, at all. I have never gotten quite that good with a regular barrel).

[kryogen]

yeah, I did some recluse 45/45/10 lube a while ago and it worked great. I prefer hitek though.

Using the 38 special expander solved my issue. no tumbling of any bullet tonight, and good precision, no apparent leading with the quick inspection that I did. Will check tomorrow with a light and some patches.

357 bullets, 356 glock. hitek.

[ioon44]

Looks like we arrived at the same conclusion with different equipment.

Glad this is working for you.