Cast bullets in a Lady Smith 38 spc

[Low$John]

Someone out there must have the answer????
I need an explanation to a cast bullets performance which I cannot find in my mind (which is old and does not always remember stuff). I just obtained a 38 cal revolver, model 60, Lady Smith in very good shape. Yes, its for me, not my wife or any other female, just me. I was wondering how accurate I could get it to shoot using cast bullets. I realize that a 2” barrel will not give the accuracy of my K38 will but that’s not what is bothering me. Right away, the bullets I tried, shoot 3” to the left @ 50 ft of the point of aim. I’m not worried about an elevation problem; I can fix that with all the cast bullets and powder types I keep. The problem is how I solved the (shoots to the left problem). With no adjustable sights on the Smith, I did not want to modify the sights front or back which would be a lot of careful work without making the gun look hacked. After trying 12 different flat base/gas checked cast bullets of different sizes and weights I sort of gave up on getting one to shoot just a little farther to the right. Well, if I just want to use this little gun for practice, I may as well use one of my cast wad cutter bullets. Hmmm, I just found the wad cutter bullets shoot to the point of aim. I, with some experience, could not remember why this design would make this much difference. I thought, well, maybe it’s the way I hold this little gun in my right hand, so I tried it in my left hand,same results, shoots to point of aim. My 4 wad cutters all seem to work well at 50 ft, even out to 50 yds. I had some samples of a cast bullet with just a little point on the tip,,,,,,and this little bit made the bullet drift to the left. The tumble lube Lee wad cutter works well, which is good for me using the 6 gang mold I have. I’m using 3.3 +/- .1 grs of Tite Group powder which is not a super light load. I have not tried less powder for a target load yet, still trying to figger out why the wad cutters corrected the problem with the non adjustable sights. To say the least, I am happy with the results, just wondering why it works.. :-o

[Wasalmonslayer]

Good evening
I have that exact gun.
It shoots a 2" group at 20 yds all day long. It is kinda boring how well it shoots.
My recipe is 125 grn lee round Flat with tac1 lube sized to .358 and then a candy coating of Ben tumble lube. I load that over 4 grns of unique with a strong roll crimp and it shoots right on to the sights and is boringly accurate!

wasalmonslayer

[Low$John]

Wasalmonslayer, now if you wanted it to shoot more to the right with no change to point of aim, what would you try??? Why? I wonder, do my wad cutter bullets work so well and all other bullets of different weight and configurations shoot to the left??? I have been using the same 3.3 grs of Tite Group with all other bullets to keep things the same to find which bullet would maybe make it shoot to the right more, no luck till I tried the 4 different plain old wad cutters to finally get what I want. What is the reason, I just don't figger.....

[scottfire1957]

It could be anything. That pistol, your grip, your triggerpull, the bullet, the lube, the position of venus...

[Low$John]

scottfire1957
I tried staggering the loads in the gun, same results, only the wad cutters went to point of aim.
Using the same lube on all bullets.
I'm thinking the venus thing I should look into :)

[bruce381]

maybe the boolit wt and the loads speed applying just the right amount of torque to the small gun to print just right?

[Wayne Smith]

Rifling twist to the right or left on that gun??

[Screwbolts]

The fact that the name has the word "Lady" in it answers a lot of questions. Some can be a bit temperamental:kidding:.

[Shooter6br]

My vote is for wadcutters. I have a 638 that loves wadcutters 132723

[44man]

Going right or left is just a twist and spin problem. The longer bearing of the wad cutter must be getting the correct spin. The others would need a load work job.
I don't know if a chronograph would show the difference so you could match them up better.

[EMC45]

Not sure of the fix for your problem. May be a grip issue, or "pushing" when you pull the trigger perhaps? Maybe not enough of the pad of your trigger finger on the face of the trigger is causing you to "push" the gun to the left right when you fire? Not sure. How many other folks have shot this gun and load combo and have gotten the same results? That may tell you something. I ask because there are many factors to consider when things like this happen. I have 2 Model 36s and they are very accurate and I can shoot them better and more accurately than I can shoot my Model 67 with adjustable sights. Could be due to my small Hobbit-like hands though.

[Low$John]

Another point to mention, I also have the Model 60 in the 3" barrel target model. This one shoots the bullets I wish to use to point of aim but I noticed the rear sight has been moved slightly to the right showing that when centered on the barrel it must have been shooting to the left with the loads I was using at that time years ago.

I have used a few lighter charges of powder and different brands of powder, this just changed the elevation. I haven't checked the rate of twist on the short barrel, that could be a challenge. Has anyone out there ever checked with Smith Wesson on the twist rate??

I still have the loading dies set up today and was going to see what would happen if I turned a semi wad cutter backwards and fired it.

I have tried same weight bullets with semi wad shape and several different speeds + other shaped nosed bullets, still shoot to the left. Shoots good groups, just not where I point. If its a mechanical problem could be crown cut at angle or even the other end of the barrel where it fastens to the frame. Maybe even over tightened barrel? Kind of a petty complaint, after all its a 7 yard defense weapon, but it can group so well with cast bullets.
I'm satisfied with the wad cutters, just bothers me why the shape should make such a difference. I'll have to try the wad cutter load in my 3" today and see if that shoots to the right compared to semi wad cutter I use in it.

I was planning to compare light and heavy roll crimps today, all loaded and ready to try.

Weather a little nasty today, if the wind goes down ill try a few more shots. Lucky for me I can shoot out my basement window.

[bhn22]

Try powder puff loads with semi-wadcutters. Failing that, try swapping the grips out, do the grips on the gun have fingergrooves? Fingergroove grips are often an issue with windage because the gun can feel "right", but be pointing in the wrong direction. S&W factory fingergroove grips are usually really pretty, but Pachmayer Professional Compacs usually fix a lot of evils.

[RogerDat]

Seems to me that if it is the same shooter and same gun with the only thing changing being the profile of the cast bullet projectile it has to be something about the projectile. So the question is what is different about those WC cartridges and the others?

Crimp? Amount of bullet surface bearing on rifling? Alloy used? Lube? Velocity? Same gun, same shooter one of these things or something like it seems the most likely candidate.

I'm sort of wondering if the WC might be further back and tighter crimp thus have more pressure/velocity with same powder and bullet weights. The idea of trying some of the other rounds with a tighter crimp seems like a good experiment.

Or if the WC are a different alloy they might obturate differently and impact how well or where in the barrel the bullet engages the rifling.

[mdi]

Jes a thought; are all the bullets the same weight (the wadcutters that are OK, and the others that fly left)?

[Low$John]

bhn22: I have shot targets with both hands and mixed wad cutters and semi- wad cutters from 110 to 180 gr. Target shows the nice clean punched holes from wad cutters to point of aim, and to the left the others go.
Tried some loaded backwards semi wad cutters a few min ago, larger groups, still to the left.
The barrel has a left hand twist looking in from the hammer end.
Will get my 3" barrel target model 60 out and try one of the 4 wad cutters I'm using, see if it will shoot them to the right, it hits to point of aim with the Lyman 358156 semi wadcutter.
Finally found a few Lyman 358311 round nose flat base, shoots to the left for me also. That bullet and several other round nose calibers is so common its often over looked cause every one has that mold. I'm shooting into a bunch of thick electrical component books to compare bullet upset, even the soft cast swaged wadcutter does not upset much at 700 fps, not that that mushrooming means anything using flat point, but my 12 bhn cast seem to do as well. My hobby is finding a cast bullet that works well in a known inaccurate rifle or pistol in good mechanical shape someone else owns. Once done, I loose interest in that unit and move on to another. I get to shoot nice guns that I could not afford and that's fun for me. Good thing with my retirement $$$ I'm happy to heat the house :).

Good thing I'm only shooting 50 ft today, with my new hip joint and cold I would have to pack a lunch to change 100 yd targets.

[AggieEE]

RogerDat seems to maybe onto something. I was thinking torque. Try this take six or more of the heavier swc shave the bases till their weight matches the wc. use same power load and see what happens. That should make the torque close to the same. If it doesn't then its probably the weight/bearing length that RogerDat was talking about. Good Luck and let us know what happens I would like to know.

[Low$John]

OK, further development. Got my Smith model 60 target out. Fired my wad cutter loads in it.. Guess what, it shoots to the right. Yaaaaa.
With the adjustable sights set the way they are on this model, if re centered on frame it would probably shoot my semi wad cutters to the left.

I'll have to see if I have any records of jacked bullets used, I don't have any around, did they quit making them???

If, IF jacketed bullets shoot to point of aim, I could see why this problem was not mentioned often. I wonder how many cast bullet shooters gave up on the short barreled lady Smith thinking it shoots to far to the left and traded for something else.

Important thing is, I Still have no answer to my question Why?

I have noted this gun has shallow rifeling, what's the minimum acceptable heigth of the land for the 357 mag.???

First check on the lady smith is .0045

I can picture a gripping problem with shallow rifeling.

I'll have to fire a bullet in a snow bank and recover it to checkout the slipping.

I have recovered jacked soft point bullets with NO damage to the tip if fired into the right kind of snow bank,,,,,,, then again it takes work to fine em :)

Try cutting slots in the snow and placing newspaper in to locate last page piercing, this gets you close to resting point.

[John Boy]

what would you try??? Let someone else shoot the revolver!
My guess is your grip impacts how the gun points

[Shooter6br]

try this

[Low$John]

John Boy: True, some one else firing my gun will sometimes group in a different area, vary possible with handguns. The thing is if it groups well you want to change the sights, in this case, no adjustable sights. When I work up a load for some one else I get the gun to shoot what ever power load they want in a good group for me. It's then up to that person to adjust the sights for their liking knowing they have a recorded group the gun/load is capable of. When I do find an accurate grouping hand gun, I usually make my own grips which position my hand the same way every time its held,,,,, for me. This is a slow job for me and the pistol must be a real keeper before I invest that much time in one. At my age, I worry about my kids and grandkids inheriting a light double or single action so I keep my few guns locked up and seldom shoot them anymore.

As I have noted, I like the Wad cutter loads I'm using in this pistol going fast or slow, they group well and hit to point of aim. Just wondering why using other bullets same speed, same crimp, same weight, same cases, same surface area and so on, just a different shape shoot to the left. If I had just got this gun and all I had were the first 5 cast bullets I tried I would have been disappointed and may not recommend buying this Lady Smith. It shot good groups, just not to point of aim for me at first. Lucky for me I tried 12 other bullets and found any of my wad cutter bullets hit point of aim with no problem, really like the gun, cant wait to practice with it when it warms up. Glad I tried/compaired my hid away 3" target model 60, adjustable sights and found it to shoot my lady smith loads to the right :) . Tells me its the bullet shape for some reason with these two guns, now explain to me the reason and ill sleep better tonight. Not only that, but the gun will look so much better now then sawing off the front sight, drilling and tapping for a #10 screw and bending it over to correct for windage. : )

[TCFAN]

I have a SP101 3inch barrel that does the same as your Lady Smith. Some boolits or bullets shoot to the left. Some shoot dead on to the sights............Terry

[Digital Dan]

Never found the Ladysmith to be picky about bullets. Kills hogs OK. The synergy of grip, position of finger on the trigger, barrel time, torque etc, etc isn't just a Lady issue. The gun is telling you that with your WC loads all is in harmony. With others it has liberal tendencies, something to be corrected even if it requires a large hammer. Guns without adjustable sights are like that sometimes, it's called regulation. Adjust the sights, adjust the load or your hold. OR....shoot what works and move on.

[Low$John]

TCFAN
That's good for me to hear. See guys, I'm not nuts :)
This may prove that its just not Smith Wesson with the same,,,,,, characteristic. Its not really a problem as long as it shoots good groups and has adjustable sights. I still haven't convinced myself as to what causes it, must be the bullet shape, but that doesn't tell me what's mechanically going on. I just tried some bevel base wad cutters of unknown origin. Finally got some leading in my barrel, the lube was hard as plastic. They shot to point of aim, I'm going to dig the lube out of some and re-lube them, try em again. They look something like the Lyman 358091, I don't have them listed on my mold list, ill have go search.

[prs]

Turn your shoot'n arn 90 degrees sort of ghetto style it may shoot high or low depending on how your turn, but be on center.

When I have problems like this, its usually a loose nut behind the stocks.

prs

[Low$John]

prs
Thanks for the tip, I never though of trying that but I think I"ll pass. Even in a ransom rest if it shoots certain bullets to the left ill just continue using the full wad cutters which group well and hit to point of aim. I will next try each of the 5 wad cutters I have and compare grouping at 50 ft. If it was used as its made for, 21 ft groups are fine. I have some 5 shot groups at 50 yds that are good for a wad cutter shape bullet, I guessed the flat nose would make it wander but this does not seem to be a problem. Biggest problem is changing targets in the cold and wind for this old guy.

[Low$John]

Quick note:
My wad cutter loads work just fine, shoot to the point of aim.
noted, while working to max load with the wad cutters, bullets impacting to the left more. I'm guessing the pistol is moving slightly in my hand. I would try loading down with the larger weight bullets I was trying to see if impact moved back to the right but I was already using a medium load and according to printed info, would not gain more energy with the slower moving heavy bullet. Now, if I can shoot off hand as good as this little pistol does with a one hand hold and wrist supported on a board, ill be surprised. I may try holding differently or reshaping the grip at a later date, when it warms up outside. For now, its working fine with my cast wad cutters.

I know what is happing, just don't know exactly why. If recoiling/holding position is the problem, probably different shaped grips will help. Never really thought much about this before, I just changed bullets or loads till I got what I wanted and never looked back, which is probably what will happen this time....

[pls1911]

I guerss I need to get back into the safe...
I have two consecutive number, identical Smith 681s ... beautiful guns.
Same SWC 38s, both guns shoot one ragged hole out to 40 yards...but one is spot on, the other is 4" to the left.
I'm ready to send the "left shooter" back to Smith for some work....
Any alternative suggestions?