Suggestions for C&B revolver...

[AZ-Stew]

I've had cap and ball revolvers in the past, but I was always in a position where I had to scrimp on one detail or another. I never had the opportunity to deal with one where a couple of bucks one way or the other didn't matter much.

Saturday (03/01/08) I bought a Pieta-made replica 1860 Colt Army from Sportsman's Warehouse for an obscenely low price ($199.? .95/.99 whatever). $200. OK? The same gun in Bass Pro is $259.? and not much better from Cabela's, Midway, etc. No matter, I have it now, and I'm very happy with the figure of the Walnut in the stocks and the color case on the frame. Very nice looking revolver! And now I don't have to worry about the costs of: Propellant, Caps, Capper (I have one, but will take suggestions), Caps (Manufacturer, size), Balls (diameter, mould manufacturer), Lubes, etc., etc. (I'll take any and all suggestions, assuming first-hand experience).

The literature in the box says .454 round ball, but the chambers measure .444-.446, depending on how I hold my ears while using the caliper. I have a mould for .451. Is that large enough? The .454 ball seems a bit large. It means shaving off .010 diameter of the ball as it's forced into the chamber on the smallest chambers. On the other hand, .451 only shaves off .005 diameter in the largest chambers. Does that provide enough resistance for consistent ignition?

As I said, I need some first-hand experience, not "I think this oughtta work...". I want to hear from folks who've "been there - done that". Which diameter is more accurate? Has anyone taken a .451 RB mould and opened it up to an intermediate size using an abrasive and a rotating tool, thereby finding a "perfect" diameter for their ball, in their revolver?

Here's the chance for you to relate your experiences from which we all can learn.

Regards,

Stew

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

AZ-Stew

Concerning the round ball dia., I do not suggest using the . 451 as your ball caliber. The shaved portion of the ball becomes the bearing surface between the cylinder wall and the ball. If this bearing surface is not enough then the unfired ball/load will shift in the cylinder upon firing. Also, there is less chance of a gap between the ball and the cylinder wall on one side or the other. This gap is what allows for a chain fire. I have only had one chain fire in ten years of shooting BP revolvers and don't want see another one. Luckily it was only two cylinders and no damage was done to me or the revolver.

Kind Regards,
Everett

[JayinAZ]

Concerning the lube, here in Arizona heat is the big problem. I've gone to using the Wonder Wads or equivalent. They are pre lubed felt wads that go under the ball. Easier than trying squeeze or spatula grease into the ends of the chambers too :).

[freedom475]

I use 457rb's in all my C&B's (Rem, 1860, and Walker) found that with pure lead and a Lee mould they are easy enough to load and the .457 works in all of them. The increased surface reduses chain fire possibillity and increases rifleing contact. A friend tried my .457 in his Rem and has now switched to them.

Caps= I would try and use #10's as they usually go on with a snug fit. 11's sometimes need to be pinched (bent) to stay on well, when a cap or caps blow off it's a PITA, and may lead to a chain fire. I only have one C&B that needs the #11's.

I use Bore Butter generously for all lubing and cleaning/storeing of my C&B's. I use it Very sparingly as most of it gets blown away from the first shot anyway. At the end of a day of trecking and shooting the Black I load a VERY light load and fill up the cylinders with the lube and fire all cylinders, this really gets you gun lubed and ready to be wiped down. Cleaning is a snap.

I have to wonder if the thinkness of the caliper ears and the radious of the cylinder is causing the small reading of .446. .451's work in all my guns but shave very little pb, and if the spure gets indexed wrong there may be a small hole in the "seal"(Chain fire)

[StrawHat]

What I did when I first got my 1858 Remingtons and 1860s (way back in the 70's) was to remove the nipples and slug each chamber.

Then slug the barrel. Compare the two, for any accuracy to happen the chamber needs to be at least as large as the groove diameter.

On a couple of pieces, I forget of it was the Remingtons or Colts, the chambers needed to be reamed to a larger diameter to have a ball that fit the bore.

Back then we also fitted S&W sights to the Remingtons as the target models had not yet been introduced.

I have ended up reaming all my chambers to groove diameter and using a 454 ball in 44 caliber.

For 36's I use a 380 ball.

Haven't tried 32's....yet.

Works for me, hope it works for you.

[yeahbub]

AZ-Stew!! Congrats on aquiring a nice pistol. You note it has undersize chambers, which is a problem endemic to the lot of them. The difference between the .444-.446 chambers and groove diameter might be overcome with obturation and the longer the resulting bearing surface, the better off you'll be. The longer bearing surface goes to the .454s, but they are stiff to get in there. Examining some recovered round balls will tell you. If they have divots melted out of them in a band around the middle, they aren't obturating/sealing in the bore. Accuracy will be poor. Good rifling profile in a "wedding band" around the ball is the thing to go for. Soft lead conicals will obturate better due to more mass and have better bearing surface, but finding a mold for the undersize chambers might be tough.

Regarding reliability, as long as the ball or bullet is tight enough to not move under recoil and holds the powder against a nipple that's not obstructed, you'll have good ignition. Here's a link to something I posted earlier that goes into more detail if you're interested in maximum accuracy and other details: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=26297

StrawHat's post has good points, and one in particular - proper chamber size relative to groove diameter. I typically enlarge chambers .002-.003 larger than groove diameter to correct for any location error in chamber alignment and because the gun will loosen up somewhat with use. Having proper chamber diameters will make accurate shooting much easier to accomplish and using conical boolits of more normal dimensions becomes possible. In my .453 chambers, I use a .454 200gr RNFP with the bottom driving band sized .452 in my Lyman 450 which provides a slip fit that starts them straight. Because the diameters are so close, I can also use a WW boolit which grabs the shallow rifling and gives me better accuracy.

You could lap a RB mold to get a custom size, but, beyond just cleaning them up for tooling marks, keeping the cavities spherical and on location will become a problem. No one would expect accuracy out of a lopsided ball. There are enough RB mold makers out there that you could get the size you need without much trouble.

[44man]

A caliper doesn't work for beans measuring ID's.

[JIMinPHX]

I’ve messed with 2 Cap lock revolvers from Pietta Brothers (Traditions). They both came from Sportsman’s Warehouse & I too was amazed at the price. I think that the 1851 Colt replica was like $150 or something. The 1858 Rem was about $200. That new Bass Pro Shop that we have here is nothing to brag about. The new Cabella’s has some pretty impressive displays, a good selection of a lot of things, & a mixed bag on prices.

The 1858 Pietta that I messed with was good to go right out of the box. The 1851 needed a little stoning around the hammer & the nipples needed a little fitting before it worked right. The stoning on the hammer was no big deal. There was a little rub on the side of the hammer & I stoned it down to about a .003” clearance. The nipples took a little more work. I tried 3 different brands of caps with that gun. They were all a little different, but none fit correctly. In fact, no two nipples fit the caps the same. I ended up using an M6 x (.75?) extra fine metric tap & a piece of .223 brass to make a fixture that I could screw the nipple into. I then spun it in an electric drill while holding 150-grit paper against it until a #11 cap fit properly. That was before I had a lathe here. Take the time to make the caps fit the nipples properly. It is a worthwhile thing to do. It is both a performance issue & a safety issue. Unreliable ignition & chain fires are both things worth spending some effort to avoid.

The 1858 took #10, not #11 caps, but both guns had the same thread where the nipples screw into the cylinder, so you could probably change the nipple size if you wanted to. I found replacement nipples for a Pietta in a booth at the SASS shoot at Ben Avery a year or two ago. That is the only place that I’ve seen the correct ones so far. They were reasonably priced there.

.454” round balls worked well in both guns. They could each shoot one-hole groups from the 10 yard line with 30-grains of Pyrodex P & a wonder wad under a .454 ball.

With a cap lock revolver, the ball is supposed to shave a ring of lead when you load it. If you don’t get a complete ring, then you may have problems ranging from poor accuracy to a chain fire. If a .451 ball gives you a complete ring shaving off it when you load, then you can use it. Unless you have a problem getting .454 balls, I wouldn’t bother trying to use anything smaller though. There is just no reason for it.

I never had to touch the throats on either of the two Piettas that I fooled with. They just shot great right out of the box. If yours shoot good, then don’t mess with it either. If you have accuracy problems, then you can slug your bore & compare it to the throat diameters & see what your situation is. Calipers are not accurate for measuring the throat IDs. The calipers have small flats on the edges of the measuring surfaces that make them show the measured diameter to bee slightly smaller than it actually is. It’s possible to calculate the cordal contact points & calculate the difference, but the math is kind of hairy & I find it easier to either slug the throat or just grab a ball gage. I have a set of ball gages up here in the northwest corner of the valley that I can let you use sometime if you need them.

As for lubes, Bore butter melts in the summertime around these here parts. Wonderlube 1000 plus holds up a lot better, although when the mercury pushes up past 120, that stuff gets questionable too. When I’m out of wonder wads, I apply a ring of Wonder lube around the outside of the loaded ball using a Q-tip as my safety precaution against chain fires. I usually stick with the wonder wads though. The only down side to them, is that they leave a nasty little wet spot in a random place on the paper targets that I shoot at. It’s a mild irritation at most.

If you need to recover fired round balls to investigate their condition & look for signs of gas cutting etc., I also have a crumb rubber boolit trap that is excellent for doing that. They are easy to build if you want to have one of your own. Do a search for “Bullet trap for recycling lead” if you want to find out more about that. For that Pietta that you have, you will only need about a foot of depth to shoot into. A single bag of “long lasting mulch” (code name for crumb rubber) from Lowes should be enough to get you by doing that.

PM me if you run into trouble with that thing. I’m not that far away.

[MtGun44]

'nasty wet spot on the target" -----

Hmm. Maybe backing up to the 10 yd line will fix that. [smilie=1:

Please, just joking - no offense intended! :-D

I love the Wonder wads but I shoot at 25 yds and they just seem to
'go away' for me. My Pieta 1860 Army shoots about 6" or so at
25yds, which seems pretty decent to me - given the pathetic sights
and the inevitable hammer (sight) wobble. Would not want someone
armed with one of these shooting at me ! Effective weapon, and in
the days of 2-4 rounds per minute from a rifle - wow, awesome firepower.

Bill

[JIMinPHX]

Oh Yea,
Cabellas in Glendale usually has the .454” Lee round ball mold on the shelf. Well, actually, it’s on the floor, in a pile of BP molds, over in the BP section by the left hand side of the main gun counter.

The thing is that with those guns taking so long to load, I have trouble getting through a whole box of 100 balls. I just never used enough of them to justify spending the $20 on a mold.

Cheers,
Jim

[AZ-Stew]

As a mechanical designer, I'm well aware that calipers are not the best tool for measuring IDs. Right now, it's all I have. I'm looking at buying a set of hole gages like this item (http://cgi.ebay.com/STARRETT-No-829-Series-125-500-HOLE-GAGE-GAUGE-SET_W0QQitemZ110228656007QQihZ001QQcategoryZ58231Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem), but haven't done it yet. The object of the caliper measurement was to get a ballpark indication of the chamber diameter, and I'm sure the numbers I got are within .0015 of the actual size. The flat on the caliper tips isn't wide enough to make any more difference than that between the true diameter and the measurement across the two chords.

Having used C&B revolvers in the past, I'm leary of using balls that are too large. I once had a Walker replica that apparently had a weak spot in the loading lever. That, along with some slightly oversized balls and possibly some alloy that was a bit tougher than pure lead (which I was certain it was, at the time) caused the loading lever to break. That was many (35?) years ago and my experience with C&Bs at the time was very short, and documentation was difficult to come by, at best. My concern is that with chamber measurements of .444 - .446, give or take a thou, it just seems to me that the manufacturer-recommended .454 round ball might be a tighter fit than I'd like. I don't want to go through the broken loading lever hassle again, even though repair parts availability is much better now than it was then.

I already have one issue with the gun. One of the two alignment pins at the front of the frame has a greater affinity for its mating hole at the bottom of the barrel than it does for its proper hole in the frame. The first time I disassembled the revolver to clean off the preservative oil, the pin came off with the barrel. I will probably have to JB Weld it into the frame to get it to stay. Locktite doesn't work. It looks like it wasn't knurled enough to make it stay in the frame. Other than that and a creepy trigger, I really like it. It has a nice piece of walnut for the stocks and it has one of the best color case jobs I've ever seen on a replica.

As for caps, #11s require pinching to stay on these nipples. On the other hand, #10s won't seat completely without using a tool. Can't get them on with thumb pressure. I'd rather not use a tool to put the caps on. If, while putting the caps on, one should happen to ignite on a loaded chamber that's not aligned with the bore, the consequences wouldn't be pretty. I'm using CCIs. Remington's aren't available at any of the stores I have visited. I think Sportsman's has some RWS, so I'll have to try them, too.

I appreciate all the suggestions. Some of them are things I wouldn't have thought of myself. For those who've enlarged their chambers, I'd be interested in knowing what tool you used. Thanks, guys. If anyone else has additional experiences, they'll certainly be welcome.

Regards,

Stew

[AZ-Stew]

BTW, I just did a little experiment using my Computer Aided Design (CAD) software. Given a flat width of .010 on the caliper ID measurement tips, the following errors in measurement can be expected:

For a hole size of:******* Actual measurement would be:

****.444 *******************.44388737

****.446 *******************.44588788

****.448 *******************.44788838

In any of these cases, the error is less than .0005 (half a thousandth). The skill in using the tool is more important than the error induced by the narrow flat on the caliper tips. This is true with any measuring tool. One needs to take several ID measurements with a caliper, working the tool around in the hole, to ensure that the largest ID measurement is obtained. Errors in technique will result in a too-small ID measurement with a caliper.

Regards,

Stew

[xtimberman]

Yep. You need to choose a soft lead ball that will fit snug in the chamber if you plan to load loose black powder. Reasons are well covered above.

However, your .451" balls will work well in paper "cartridges" for your revolver - in fact better than a .454" ball. The Colt and Rem. factories manufactured and sold millions of boxes of paper cartridges, so they're authentic. DGW and other folks sell nitrated paper and kits for making cartridges, but you can rig up a kit of your own after you examine one.

xtm

[JIMinPHX]

I just did a caliper check of a throat & measured it as .445". The flats on my calipers are about .017" across. It sounds like your throats & mine are about the same. Mine likes the .454 round balls from either Hornady or Speer equally.

RWS makes a 10.75 cap that is commonly sold as a #11. If you're lucky, that might do the trick for you. Sportsman's warehouse used to carry the Remington as well as the CCI caps. I can't remember if the Remingtons were looser or tighter, but they did fit differently. I standardized on CCI after I refit my nipples, so I haven't fooled with other brands of caps for a while.

One trick that I used to use with tight fitting caps, was to seat them with the hammer. I would first seat them gently with my thumb. I would then spin the cylinder around so the cap was under the hammer, then gently lower the hammer on the cap. Then after the hammer was in contact with the cap I would push the hammer down firmly with my thumb to seat the cap fully on the nipple. ***I always did this with the gun pointed down range!*** This system gave me very reliable ignition, but I never really liked it from a safety point of view. That is why I refit my nipples. Refitting the nipples is still my primary recommendation.

The hole gages that you are looking at on e-bay are not bad, but I prefer the full ball variety. I think that the full ball gages give you a better sense of feel when you wiggle them around in a bore. I can get good accuracy from either type though. If I really pay attention, I can get measurements repeatable to about .0001 or .0002 on a regular basis with that type of gage, assuming that I use it with a decent quality micrometer. For the money, ball gages are a wonderful thing.

[Newtire]

As for the caps, I have found the Remingtons to have the most uniform sound going off. I noticed CCI seem noticably different in sound. Maybe nothing to that though. I also had to pinch on the caps using #11. We're lucky around here to be able to get any size caps.

[MtGun44]

AZ-Stew,

You can get a very serviceable pin guage set in the sizes needed for most gun
stuff from Enco for around $60, IRRC.

Yes - check this out:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=616-8131&PMPXNO=951510

Get the minus set. Well worth the $60 if you fiddle with guns very much.

Bill

[yeahbub]

AZ-Stew, interesting that you're in mechanical design. I had 7 years in Unigraphics before I moved to quality assurance. Isn't CAD wonderful for shooters?

I enthusiastically second MtGun44's suggestion about pin gages. I've had a set since my machinist days and find them indispensable. Mine are also a minus set.

To enlarge the chambers, on my '58 Remington .44, I made a .375 dia boring bar and bearing, and line-bored the chambers through the barrel hole in the frame. On my 1861 Navy .36, I aligned and centered on each chamber by inserting the closest pin gage that would fit, chucked up on what stuck out in the mill, lowered the arbor and clamped the cylinder between soft jaws in the mill vise. I then used a piloted reamer (we had many of odd sizes) to cut the chambers a couple thousandths over groove dia. It had been a lousy performer with round balls, though better with conicals. Once the job was done, accuracy was much improved and it shot about the same with both.

There was once a service that you could send your cylinder to and get it gas-hardened so it would resist deformation from the bolt-stop snapping against the edges of the notch. The cylinders tend to be butter soft, so if you can hear the bolt-stop snap against the cylinder before the cylinder is in position for the stop to drop directly into the notch, the bolt-stop "legs" are a bit short, and peened notches will change chamber/barrel alignment. Timing on the Pietta's has been pretty good in the last few years, but I still see those that will let the stop go a touch early or late and deform the notches on one side or the other. You can slightly straighten the "hook" at the ends if they're short, but they are at spring temper, so I wouldn't take them too far.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Gents, please, please pretty please DO NOT PINCH YOUR CAPS! The interference (press) fit between the cap and the nipple keeps flame from the firing chamber from bleeding into an adjacent nipple where there is an exposed underside of a cap and an exposed powder charge just down the nipple. Chain fires can occur from either end of the cylinder.

There are plenty of nipples on the market to fit whatever thread type with whatever cap size you want. I changed my Remington clone to #11 caps so I have only one cap size to fit my C&B revolver, .32 squirrel rifle, .50 mountain rifle and 10 gauge double barrel.

Pinching caps is an invitation for chain fire, and pinching just might stress the cap enough to pop it between your thumb and forefinger.

Please don't pinch your caps!

[44man]

Other then the Colt revolvers with the stupid front sight that makes the guns shoot over the targets, I have only seen one problem with the Remington revolvers. They are very accurate with a round ball but if you try to load boolits in them, the nose is under the edge of the forcing cone because of the small cylinder. When shot, the boolit noses in adjacent chambers will be cut away. Doesn't seem to happen with the round ball.
Any gun with a loading lever should have nothing but pure lead used. You can buy or make a tool to load the cylinder out of the gun and then a harder lead can be used.
Shoestring is right about caps, chainfires happen from the REAR.
Look at a Remington closely, if it happened from the front you would never shoot this gun because the pressure from the forcing cone goes right into adjacent throats.

[2gundavid]

Hi Everyone this is my first post to this groupe.I really love the 1858 Remington style CAP&BALL revolvers.I've got a .44 8 inch Army and a 6.5 inch Police model in .36.both of these guns are Piettas,as you know made in Italy.They are great shooters.I like Hogdons triple 7 3F in both guns.The only thing I have done is to replace the nipples on both guns with 6X75mm Tresco brand nipples they take Remington #11 caps with no problem.Everything I've needed for my guns has been found at The Possible Shop on the web.At the range I find a revolver stand that holds the gun up right a great help.There is also a tool to load the cylinder that is availible at the Possible Shop $15.00,that is a great aid in loading the guns Extra cylinders are on sale at Cabela's for $40.00 Replacement cylinders for shooting cartridges made by R&D gun shop are at Mid-way & Cabela's & The possible Shop They will allow you to shoot 45LC in the .44 and 38Special in the .36.The extra cylinders let you shoot longer without stopping to reload every 6 rounds.I am now in the process of making paper combustible cartridges to also speed reloading time.Their is a Yahoo Group that is all about Percusion revolvers that is very good.Best of luck with your shooting

[OeldeWolf]

I have been shooting them for several years, now.

As a test I put one on a rest, and at 7 yrds ended up with one ragged hole and a single flyer. I was testing a couple of different lead hardnesses at the time. Pure lead worked best.

I use a .451 ball I cast from a Lee aluminum mold. Yep, I was near broke at the time, bought everything with a bonus I earned at work, so I had something I could afford to shoot.

I use wonder wads, but they are getting hard to find around here. I have also used crisco over the balls to help lube and to prevent chain fires.

After I finishe shooting, I run a greased (with crisco) patdh down the barrels and cylinders. This makes them a lort easier to clean when I get home. I clean with dish soap and water in a bucket I save for that purpose. I use a standard brass bore brush, a tooth brush, and a baby bottle nipple brush in order to get all the places powder residue likes to creep. Then I rinse everything in tap water, and then rinse then in boiling water and lay them on a towel. The heat flash dries them, or at least all the parts big enough to hold heat.

I use a tea strainer to hold all the screws and small parts for washing and rinsing.

I oil them for storage, and then wipe the oil out of bore and cylinders before loading. I also put some crisco on the cylinder support rod before loading, helps keep it turning longer.

[OeldeWolf]

I use a Ted Cask snail capper. I obtained a walker colt flask from cabelas, as it was adfjustable, and then modified the spout with a short piece of brass tubing to reach the 1860's cylinders better. I made a remover for the nipples out of a grade 8 bolt, for the times they are a little harder to remove than usual. I also use permatex neverseize on the nipple threads.

Nobel caps seem to be too hot, and are hard to find here anyway. I use CCI because they are the only thing available locally.

[280 Rem]

I have several Pietta 1858 and 1860's in .44 caliber. My experiences are using an RCBS .451 round ball mould casting wheel weight lead.

First let me be clear...If you're loading wheel weight round balls you NEED to have one of the "out of the gun" type loading mechanisms. Loading a hard cast ball with the loading levers of these revolvers is an invitation to be buying replacement loading levers.

Even if you shoot soft lead balls I would strongly suggest the "outboard loading" mechanism as among other things it allows for easier powder throws and I believe it allows for better "squarer" seating of the ball over the powder.

With the wheel weight lead .451 I NEVER have had a problem getting a good even lead shaving ring suggesting a solid fit. (I have multiple cylinder for the revolvers too and ALL seem to be just fine with the .451 ...mics .451!)

I use the wonder wad under the ball for all hunting loads. (Here in the peoples Republic of Maryland most counties will not allow the use of a handgun as a deer hunting tool. But will allow the use of a C&B revolver with a 6" or longer barrel and capable of holding 40 gr of BP or equivelant. ) A clean cylinder in either the '58 or 60 will take that plus the wonder wad plus the ball...Just barely! Now for the record I have taken one deer with this load...It hit HARD WAY HARD! Much harder thatn I would have expected.

For plinking at the range I use a much lighter charge of black powder 20-30 grains filling any void with corn meal ...seat the ball and liberally (Its Maryland waddaya expect!) cover the ball with Lubriplate. Both the 58 and 60's shoot high..REAL HIGH. About 18" at 25 yards. Groups run in the 3" range with either load.

My experience with the R&D .45 Colt drop- in conversion cylinders has been very positive. But bear in mind my thoughts are colored by the fact that I don't have to clean up after shooting black powder WHICH I HATE!!!!!...By the way did I say I HATE cleaning up after shooting black powder?

I have shot Winchester factory cowboy loads only out of these cylinders so far. Accuracy was 3-4" at 25 yards. Printed about identically to BP and the .451. In the 60 I had a problem with the bullet backing out of the case under recoil on the factory loads. Irks the devil out of you as it locks up the cylinder.

Also, R&D, the manufacurer is GREAT about fitting the cylinder if the timing or fit is off

280