M1 Garand loads??

[pbriggs7]

Hey guys I'm new here. My father's been reloading for awhile and we need some info. Not new to casting or reloading. He's casting bullets and making loads for his 1917 enfield and colt 1911. We're going into giving it a whirl with our Garands. He's got some castings made up, I don't know how to describe them except they're in a normal FMJ contour shape with three lines on the end of it. They weigh 190gr. each. What are you guys having best luck with for powder to cycle the action. Are we too heavy on the bullet, should we go with a different contour? What type of powder works best? How much powder would you use of IMR 4064 if we went with that. Any test loads you guys have used that work good in your Garands would be greatly appreciated.

[Larry Gibson]

311299 (314299 if the throat is worn) at 205-209 gr (WWs+2-3% tin WQ'd) over 30 gr 4895 (29 gr H4895) with a dacron filler (1 gr) always shoots quite well in my M1903 and M1s. Not had any functioning problems or fouling of the gas system with that load either. Bullets are sized .311" and Lubed with Javelina. Hornady GCs are used. Cases are U.S. GI with WLR primers. Velocity runs 1800 -1850 fps depending on barrel.

Larry Gibson

[kycrawler]

190-200 gr boolit 35 -37 gr of imr 4350 no filler wlr primer cases eject about 2-3 feet out of the rifle and it shoots around 2 inches at 100 out of 3 rifles for me

[runfiverun]

pretty much what larry said g/c's and 4895

[HABCAN]

Same load as I use with 190gr. SHPBTM condoms, 52.0grs. WW #760, CCI #250 Mag primer, substituting Lyman #31141 or LEE C312-185-2R, WDWW, sized .309, (or .311), lubed LTL. If it goes in the back, it'll come out the front. Acceptable accuracy with no leading of bore or gas system, or damage to the op-rod.

[Tumtatty]

Can you use a Lee TL312-160-2R for M1 Garands?

I currently use this for my Enfield. I heard these could be used for my Mosin Nagant as well. Is that true as well?


Thanks!

[HABCAN]

Yes, Tum, a pal just got that mould and has had success with it in SKS, M1, and Lee-Enfields. I do not know his powder charges, sorry, but they are approximating full-bore. Next order, I may just have to get one too!

[Tumtatty]

Yes, Tum, a pal just got that mould and has had success with it in SKS, M1, and Lee-Enfields. I do not know his powder charges, sorry, but they are approximating full-bore. Next order, I may just have to get one too!

If you find out what the loads are, please let me know. Will A2400 work ok? I use it for everything else so I assume so.

Does "full-bore" mean a full charge as if using commercial bullets?

[jonk]

2400 will work but probably won't cycle the action; you will have to rack the slide yourself. It probably WILL make the action hiccup but not cycle.

[HABCAN]

TumT, we don't get together often, but as soon as I know I will PM you what he's using. When it comes to cast, we both start loading boolits on top of proven charges for j-words of the same weight, and work down from there if necessary: frequently, it isn't, which may be surprising to some. We use WDWW, gas-checked, tumble-lubed LLA, and all we ask of boolits is 4MOA. Some do better, but our 'accuracy' loads use expensive stuff like Sierra HPBTM or Hornady AMax. We have not progressed YET to finding 'accuracy' loads using boolits.

[Andy_P]

Take care with what powder you use with the Garand. Use of powders much slower than 4064 can cause excessive wear on the Op Rod due to the longer pressure curve produced.

[Tumtatty]

What powders would you recommend? Would Magnum primers help 2400 do the job?

I'm ok with moving to a different powder.

It worries me a bit to use so much powder with a cast boolit. I've normally used 16.6 gr 2400 and jumping up to 30+ seems steep. But I've never shot an M1 before and have no idea what it takes to make it function properly.

Thanks for the input! I"m glad I don't have to buy another mould!

[BruceB]

Once again we must repeat that USING CAST BULLETS is NOT the same as using jacketed bullets in a Garand. The precautions for powder speed observed in JACKETED loads DO NOT, repeat NOT, apply to cast-bullet loads in the M1. In this appplication, such precautions are myths and old-wives' tales.

For example, the 4831 powders are properly eliminated from use in JACKETED loads in M1 rifles because the gas pressure at the muzzle (and thus at the gas port ) is TOO HIGH, and the op rod etc are indeed in serious danger of being damaged..

In the Garand using CAST bullets, slow powders such as the 4831s and 4350s work extremely well with cast bullets, and without any danger whatever to the working parts of the rifle.

H4831, to use one example, allows the cast bullet a gentle start, and because of its slow burning rate, the acceleration continues in a moderate way until the bullet arrives at the muzzle at a speed consistent with its cast consruction, and with JUST enough pressure to operate the action efficiently....NOT overpressured or "overdriving" either the bullet OR the op-rod. Ejection is nice and gentle as well, indicating the LOW pressure at tjhe gasport.

Try about 40 grains of H4831 with any 180-200 grain .30 gas-checked bullet, and see for yourself.

I say again: you are dealing with a different situation when using cast bullets in the Garand, and the old traditions, stories and methods for using jacketed bullets DO NOT APPLY.

Somewhere on this site is the "BobS load" for the Garands. Search for "BobS load" and read it, because it's highly educational.

[Larry Gibson]

The lighter cast bullets are going to require more powder to provide sufficient gas port pressure to function the action. More powder means more pressure which means more accelleration which means more velocity which means you will probably be shooting the lighter bullets too fast for the 10" twist of the M1. Accuracy will only be "acceptable" as stated. If you want good accuracy you need to keep the velocity between 1800 and 1900 fps. Use a heavier bullet (180 gr minimum up through 220 grs) with a medium purning powder (4895 always works well) or a slower powder like 4831. As mentioned by BruceB 4831 when used with heavier cast bullets will also provide the appropriate velocity without exceeding the pressure limits of the gas port.

Larry Gibson

[Bob S]

My M1 load was almost identical to my 03A3 load, posted below in a thread where someone was looking for a 200 or 300 yard aught-six load. The bolt gun load was 311284 with 40 grains of WW II surplus 4831, ¼ sheet of pink (very important!! :mrgreen: ) toilet paper over the powder, and the gas check seated to the base of the neck. That load shot extremely well in the 03A3. When I bought my first M1, circa 1966, I bumped the charge up to 42 grains, and seated the bullet to the crimping/dirt scraper groove to fit in the M1 magazine. All bullets were cast of straight wheelweights, no heat treating. Had not heard about heat treating at that time, but the wheel weights in the days of yore had considerably more antimony in them than today. I used Sierra or Hornady Gas Checks (crimp-on) and used the then-new Alox-beeswax lube. That first M1 had a new barrel, and I had glassed it, but it was in no way completely match-conditioned: the gas cylinder was reasonably tight, but not peened, and I removed it to clean on a regular basis. The cast loads would group about as well as M2 ball in that rifle, which is to say five-shot groups fired from the prone position into about 2-1/2” at 100 yards fired slow fire (single loading); fed from the clip, groups (8 rounds now) would open up to a bit over 3” @ 100 yards. Now at that time the five-ring of the Able target used for 200 and 300 yard firing was 12”, and the V ring was I think 4 or 5”, so you could do OK with the cast stuff at 200 yards. There were two things that made it difficult to shoot well: first, it took about 35 clicks of elevation to get centered at 200 yards, and secondly, because of the long barrel time, if everything was not absolutely perfect when I broke the shot, it would throw a wide 4, where a jacketed load might still catch a 5. In my correspondence with Col. Harrison at that time, he estimated that the muzzle velocity would be about 2000 fps, but it might have been lower than that. When we went to the decimal targets (1967, I think), the load/rifle/shooter combination wasn’t competitive anymore, but it was still OK for practice standing or sitting rapid at 200 yards. I still used the 40 grain load in the bolt gun (03A3), because it would clean the SR target at 300 yards if the nut behind the trigger was tight on that day. I got my Master classification in 1973 using this load in the 03A3 exclusively at 200 and sometimes 300 yards, but it was not up to shooting Master class scores out of the M1 on the decimal targets.

At about the time that I was doing this, Ed Harris had written an article in TAR in the old “In My Experience” column about using a cast load in a National Match M1. His load was not the same as mine; IIRC, he was using 4895 powder and a somewhat lighter bullet, but I do not recall the details. He reported an unpredictable zero shift and serious leading of the gas cylinder/piston. I didn’t experience any leading, but I did dismount the gas cylinder after every range session, and brushed a few lead flecks off of the piston with an old brass bore brush, and I cleaned the gas cylinder with a shotgun bore brush. I never had more than superficial lead flakes in either place. As for the zero shift … the 311284 load shot four minutes to the right of my zero with M2 ball. This is to be expected with a load with a heavier bullet and longer barrel time in a right hand twist. Shifting back to M2 ball, my no-wind zero went right back to where it should be. So the no-wind zero with the cast load was “different”, but predictable.

Fast-forward about 20 years, and when my stash of WW II surplus 4831 ran short, I tried substituting 4350, and got about the same results. This was fired at 100 yards prone:



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/M1Cast.jpg

This was fired with a guesstimate for the elevation and I didn’t touch the windage. You can see from this target the approx. 4 minutes right , and the elevation required to get “on” at 100 yards.

Cast bullets were always a means to an end for me, not the end-all. I had an unlimited supply of wheelweights, and as a poor high school and undergraduate student in the 60’s, a bunch of cast bullets meant only an investment of my time when I could not afford a box of Sierra Internationals. For some high power shooting in those days, they could be competitive at 200 and sometimes 300 yards, but for 600 yards I had to “bite the bullet” and spring for the Sierras. These days I enjoy shooting cast in the as-issued competition, where they can be very competitive, if you are allowed to shoot your own ammo.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[dualsport]

I would like to cast bullets in my Garand for milsurp silhouette, with rams out at 500 meters I think I need something with some oomph. Looking over Garand info here for two hours, a lot of good stuff already available, but not much in the upper end of the heavy range. Here's what I have; WWII 4831, WC860, AA2700, AA2230. Bullets I'm considering are a 'fat' .30 Lee GB at 180 gr., Saeco #315, Lee 309-200R, Ideal 311413 and 308334. I have COW, dacron, and poly buffer(Grex), and TP. Regular or magnum or military primers. My CMP Garand is in very good shape, a Service grade. Due to budget issues I need to work with what I already have. Thanks for your consideration. Tim EDIT: I will have the Mod. 314299 GB mold soon, but not in time for this match.

[vernz]

One of my friends has been knocking down rams with his Model 1917 rifle. I'll get load data from him when I see him Sunday and let you know. I seem to remember that it is a surprisingly mild load that was doing the job.

Vern

[vernz]

Checked with my friend today. He's using 13.5 grains of Herco powder behind a 175 grin bullet cast with wheel weights and it takes down a ram every time he hits it. 12.5 grains of unique will give about the same velocity as the Herco. I don't know what kind of velocity he's getting with that charge, but I would think matching or exceeding the velocity with powder that is right for the Garand will also knock them down. Hope this helps.

Vern

[Papa smurf]

Had a M1 afew years back that worked well with a load I got from an old issue of The American Rifleman. It was 30 gr IMR 3031 with Lyman #311291 and there #2mix. and
I sized to .308 . Good Shooting -----------------------Papa Smurf

[GrizzLeeBear]

Checked with my friend today. He's using 13.5 grains of Herco powder behind a 175 grin bullet cast with wheel weights and it takes down a ram every time he hits it. 12.5 grains of unique will give about the same velocity as the Herco. I don't know what kind of velocity he's getting with that charge, but I would think matching or exceeding the velocity with powder that is right for the Garand will also knock them down. Hope this helps.

Vern

Vern, Is your friend shooting at lever action silhouettes at like 200 meters, not full distance 500 meter rams?

That load only goes about 1500 fps. According to my Lyman Cast bullet book, with a 311467 that has a pretty good BC for a +/- 175 gr. boolit, you would have over 30 FEET of drop and almost 6 FEET of drift in a 10 mph wind at 500 meter (550 yard) rams. Velocity at the target would be around 900 fps. While that would probably knock over rams, you would certainly "ring" quite a few that stayed standing.
Not saying it can't be done, and maybe he is, but thats a LOT of elevation and windage to adjust for at 500 meters.

[vernz]

Grizzlee, Yes we are shooting at 500 yard rams. He told me he's never had one fail to fall when he hit it. The practice at our club is to set the rams light....that is the back side of the foot hanging off the stand. We do that because we have many shooters using 38-55 rifles with 330 grain bullets and those sometimes would not take down a ram. There are a bunch of us who shoot the whole silhouette string offhand, so my friend with the 1917 is probably getting an average of about 3 rams per match.

Vern

[smokemjoe]

I found good loads were 40 grs. 4064 and the 311284, CBE 313215- 18 grs. 4579,

[MikeG70]

Hey Guys, Can one use Winchester's 165 gr soft point ammo in my M1 and not damage the operating rod?

[MikeG70]

I forgot, they are rated at 2800 fps.

[jimr]

i would say yes, if the garand is in good shooting order.

[JKH]

MikeG70,

Depends on the powder burn rate, most commercial '06 ammo is loaded with powder that is wrong for an M1 and can potentially damage the op-rod over time. Having said that, if you are only going to shoot a few rounds to sight in and a few rounds for deer, I doubt it will do any damage as long as you dont make it a steady diet.

Jeff (JKH)

[sqlbullet]

Get an adjustable gas plug for $30 bucks and follow the instructions to set up your rifle for that ammo.

Far cheaper than an op-rod, and piece of mind to boot.

[ilcop22]

Hey Guys, Can one use Winchester's 165 gr soft point ammo in my M1 and not damage the operating rod?

I would not without an adjustable gas plug. Or, save yourself some cash and purchase your brand's 150 grain SP J-word bullets and load yourself some garand loads with around 50 grains of 4895 (adjusted for the specific J-word bullet). That builds you an M2 ball round. Just watch the chamber pressures to not exceed 50,000 PSI (54,000 in some circles).

[Bert2368]

I have loaded cast for the '03 Springfield for a while now, and want to try cast in the Garand. My '03 loads have all been with 311332 and small amounts of fast powders such as 14 grains of Green Dot or Unique- none that will run a Garand.

Reading the several threads here as a guide, I have got hold of what I believe are appropriate moulds and supplies.

I've accumulated military 1x match brass.

I have Lyman 311332 on hand, with a 311291 and an RCBS .308-200 Silhouette on the way. Anything from pure Lead to Linotype is available. Lube/sizer is loaded with carnauba red and a .310 die.

IMR's 4895, 4831 and 3031 on hand. CCI 200 LR primers, no #34 to be had at a reasonable price around here unfortunately.

My first question- what OAL will a Garand feed? My best 03 results were at 3.340" (maximum by my Lyman manual).

[madsenshooter]

3.375" is the absolute max my Garand will accept, and with the bullets you're shooting, you should run into the throat long before that (with luck), though the 311291 is a shorty. Your CCI 200s should be just fine, just remember to seat your bullets so they're not jamming into the throat and stopping forward motion too soon. Seat them off the lands a bit. I've shot a lot of CCI BR primers in my Garand and an M1A and never had a slamfire, just some folk's paranoia in my opinion. Yes, it could happen, but it isn't likely. As for powder charges, there's already plenty written in various Garand threads.

[Bert2368]

Got the moulds and cast a couple hundred of each-

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/Bert2368/photo-37.jpg

I plan to start off the 311291 a couple grains under 30 gr of IMR 4895, the 308-200 SIL just under 40 of IMR 4831 and work up untill I get reliable function (and maybe accuracy?!). Haven't yet played with cartridge OAL/throat/seating depths, anyone else got approximate data for these boolits?

[madsenshooter]

I would like to cast bullets in my Garand for milsurp silhouette, with rams out at 500 meters I think I need something with some oomph. Looking over Garand info here for two hours, a lot of good stuff already available, but not much in the upper end of the heavy range. Here's what I have; WWII 4831, WC860, AA2700, AA2230. Bullets I'm considering are a 'fat' .30 Lee GB at 180 gr., Saeco #315, Lee 309-200R, Ideal 311413 and 308334. I have COW, dacron, and poly buffer(Grex), and TP. Regular or magnum or military primers. My CMP Garand is in very good shape, a Service grade. Due to budget issues I need to work with what I already have. Thanks for your consideration. Tim EDIT: I will have the Mod. 314299 GB mold soon, but not in time for this match.

Dualsport, parashooter just posted an interesting Quickload spreadsheet for 311284 out of the Garand with slower powders..It's here: http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?12608-cast-bullets-in-a-M1-Garand Make sure you scroll down to the right one. He takes a bit over 10,000psi as max pressure at the op rod, so even a caseful of WC860 would be ok in the Garand. I may give that a try myself sometime in the future, got to burn this nasty stuff up somehow.

[dualsport]

Sweet! Thanks for the tip. It just so happens I'm loading a box of 'BobS loads' right now. Gonna sneak off to the range to try them in my Garand, and also some 6.5x55 cruise missle loads with WC860. If I can find a good load for the M1 using 860 I'm set for life. I'll check that link when I get back.

[oldhickory]

41grs. of IMR4831 under a Lyman 311332, (heat treated WWs) works very well for me. Cycles the action, lays the emptys 3-4' behind me in a nice neat pile, and groups well. Oh, and it's just plain fun to shoot!

[dualsport]

Range report; I tried the BobS load today in my Garand. Just had time for a quick stop at a range I don't usually go to. The only open bench was on the 25 yd. line. After a couple fouling shots I got a 3/4" 5 shot group I stopped there, no point in shooting up my ammo at 25 yds. The cruise missle 6.5x55 load was a bust, 6" at 25 yds.! and tipping after a couple shots.

[sqlbullet]

BobS load wins again. Sounds just like my results at 25 yards.

[dualsport]

Ok, I checked out the spreadsheet by parashooter, I'd say that covers the pressure thing pretty good. I didn't see WC860 on the list, but several powders that are similar. In the meantime I've looked back thru my old 'The Fouling Shot' magazines and found an interesting article on this topic in No. 76. Nov/Dec 1988. The subtitle of that article by Bill McGraw is "600 Yard Hi-Power Loads". In short, he found best accuracy at 49 gr. H4831 after working up from 44 gr. He said "Heavier charges may improve groups". This is with a Lyman #311299. He also mentions TCCI 870 and 5070 shoot accurately but are about 100 fps slower than the 4831 load. His load for the 870 was 57 gr. compressed. Velocity was claimed at 2250 fps mv. If you like reading this old stuff it's all available on CD from the CBA. I'm not recommending these loads at all, just repeating what I've read. The author, McGraw, takes a slightly humorous approach to his own shooting, says he only beats the 'little girls' in a HP match.

[madsenshooter]

Well, the little girls are beating me with their ARs. Looks to me like they have to work a lot less than I do with my Garand and Krag, so I'm taking a 6mm Obermeyer barrel I got for $10 and having an AR built around it. Now, when this fellow was talking about higher charges, was he using a Garand? Course you're not going to get higher charges of the 50 cal powders in the case. With 4831 or slower burners, higher charges may require the use of an adjustable gas plug, though the 49gr of 4831 mentioned wouldn't. The gas system is designed to handle the amount of gas that 50grs of about any powder can produce. The larger charges of 50BMG powders are safe in the Garand only because they don't get up to their working pressure (not enough fire from a LRM primer). The only way to get more speed with something like 860 would be to use a kicker to get the pressure up to where it burns efficiently, closer to the 55,000psi it was designed to burn at. Then, you'd need that adjustable gas plug because port pressure with the gas produced by 60+ grains of fully burned powder would be excessive. The amount of gas produced by 49gr of 4831 however, wouldn't be. Parashooter's spreadsheet only covered the charges that would get you 2000fps. I don't think I'd care to shoot 50-80 rounds of 311299 at 2250fps! OUCH!

[dualsport]

He was using a Garand for those loads, and a 03A3 for comparison. The bolt gun was way more accurate. The heavy loads were only used for 600 yds., a much milder cast load for the rest. He even gave his come ups for the sight changes. Eventually I will tie this all together and have one gun, maybe two loads, and be good for 200m cb silhouette matches, John Garand matches, and up to 500m milsil matches. Lucky for me I'm not that competitive because I like to experiment a lot. Still, it's nice to win a little $ in the old Frank Marshall tradition. Got me an ar a couple years ago when I found out there was Cal. legal versions, a basic A2 type, for shooting in matches and I haven't used it yet! Don't seem right to leave the old girl at home, my M1 Garand I mean. But then I'm not a serious competitor at all, just a dabbler. The other candidate for my 'one gun' project is a 1942 Savage No. 4, mainly for the sights. What I really need is a good 03A3, it'll do it all.

[Bert2368]

Thanks for the suggestion of 311332 over IMR 4831, oldhickory. I already had a couple hundred of those cast up, so I lube/sized a batch to add to the test.

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/Bert2368/photo-38.jpg

I tried chambering a couple of the 311332 sized .309 and loaded at 3.330 OAL that the 1903 likes, just because they were sitting nearby. They don't engrave in the M1.

These are all sized .310, the 311291 and 308-200 SIL drop just a hair over- they didn't even touch the die when I tried .311. I'm using water cooled WW + 2% Tin for all of these.

Tonight I should get a clip of each down range.

[madsenshooter]

He was using a Garand for those loads, and a 03A3 for comparison. The bolt gun was way more accurate. The heavy loads were only used for 600 yds., a much milder cast load for the rest. He even gave his come ups for the sight changes. Eventually I will tie this all together and have one gun, maybe two loads, and be good for 200m cb silhouette matches, John Garand matches, and up to 500m milsil matches. Lucky for me I'm not that competitive because I like to experiment a lot. Still, it's nice to win a little $ in the old Frank Marshall tradition. Got me an ar a couple years ago when I found out there was Cal. legal versions, a basic A2 type, for shooting in matches and I haven't used it yet! Don't seem right to leave the old girl at home, my M1 Garand I mean. But then I'm not a serious competitor at all, just a dabbler. The other candidate for my 'one gun' project is a 1942 Savage No. 4, mainly for the sights. What I really need is a good 03A3, it'll do it all.

I know what you mean about leaving the Garand at home. You should have heard it and the Krags muttering and calling me names when I was packing that 6mm barrel up. With the Krags part of the grumbling was because I had to stop lubing some boolits I was gonna feed them to pack up the barrel. I heard the Garand say something about a sissy gun. Rest of you guys have guns that talk to you, don't you??

[Bert2368]

Talk to you?

A Swedish Mauser tried to seduce me last Saturday at the gun show. It whispered something about wanting to get in a prone position with me, couldn't quite make it out what with her accent and all.

[madsenshooter]

I like that! My foreign guns don't talk to me, or I just don't hear the language they're speaking. Bert, your M1 loads shouldn't engrave. If they do, you're running the risk of stopping forward motion of the cartridge too soon and getting a slamfire. And, some just have too much throat wear. With the rear of those long bullets you're shooting still inside the thick necked GI brass, they're probably pretty well guided until they do hit the rifling. Try putting one of your bullets into a fired case, if you can find one without the neck dented, and see how much play you have. Probably not much.

[dualsport]

Finally got to the 100 yd. line with the Garand and the BOB S. load. Nice round 3 1/2" group(ok, 2 were a little out) for a 78 on a TQ4 100 yd. Small Bore Target, from sand bags on a bench. Got 1 X plus a 10 and 3 9s. That's about as good as I do prone shooting HXP from CMP. With a 6 o'clock hold they were just a tad high over the 10 ring, same sight setting as M2 ball! No leading, brass looks good and empties piled up about 3 ft. away. What's not to like? Thanks Bob S. Now I'll see if I can sub WC860 for similar results, if so then I'll be shooting my baby for almost nothin', cost wise. I like this load, you know you're shooting a high power rifle, but still very pleasant to shoot. I also shot a CBA postal match with my Marlin 1894C .357, what a disaster. Back to the old drawing board.

[Bob S]

Welcome. Glad it worked for you.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[ReloaderEd]

I have one cast bullet load for the M1 Garand/30-06, however it shoots very well in the 03A3 Springfield, 1917 Enfield, Most the guys in our gun club shoot a lot of cast boolits or bullets with pretty much the same load.
I use National Match cases because I have a large quantity. They are full length sized in the sb RCBS die (sb=small base), cleaned and polished, primer pockets cleaned and primed with Large Rifle primers. Then charged with 50.0 grains of 4831 or 3100AA. I use a tuff of dacron filler on top of the powder. The bullet is a Lee 200 gr. gas check lubed with alox/beeswax 50/50 sized .309". I bell the cases for the cast bullet using an old lyman 310 tool expander die. The bullets are seated to the top edge of the sized surface and medium crimped. Typical accuracy is about 2 inches at one hundred yds. I use them alot to hit bowling pins from 50 to 200 yds and do pretty well. I have shot many rounds in the Garand and have had do ejector rod problems that I keep hearing and reading about but never seen.

[madsenshooter]

With 50grs of powder, you'll not bend the op rod. The system was designed to handle the amount of gas that 50gr of about any flavor of powder will produce (within sane chamber pressures). The 3100 load would be going around 2000fps, the IMR4831, maybe 2200-2300. Bet it knocks those pins for a loop!

[Bert2368]

Finally got to try the Garand loads. First was 41 gr IMR 4831 under an RCBS 308-200 SIL sized to .310. Got vertical stringing- The one in the bull is the first shot, litterally all down hill from there. I believe some attention to the contact points of the handguard is in order?

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/Bert2368/photo-40.jpg

Same load out of the '03 Springfield.

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/Bert2368/photo-42.jpg

[madsenshooter]

Seems fairly typical to me for a first shot to go high. Good group afterwards though.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Seems fairly typical to me for a first shot to go high. Good group afterwards though.

I agree with madsenshooter, but wheres the other 3 shots on the Garand target?[smilie=l:

Also, check to make sure the screw in the center of the windage knob is tight. This holds the tension on the elevation as well. If it is not tight the sight will "creep" down under recoil.

[Bert2368]

Here is a full clip of the same load fired from a cold barrel. I'll check the site, thanks for the suggestion.

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/Bert2368/photo-43.jpg

[sqlbullet]

I was going to ask if you had any dacron in there, but if your '03 doesn't string, then it isn't the load. I get groups like you have from your '03 from both my Garands at 50 yards when I do my part. I load H4831, but use 42 grains. I would guess our loads are pretty close to identical.

[madsenshooter]

I agree with madsenshooter, but wheres the other 3 shots on the Garand target?[smilie=l:

Also, check to make sure the screw in the center of the windage knob is tight. This holds the tension on the elevation as well. If it is not tight the sight will "creep" down under recoil.

Yea, I got a problem with the sight on mine. If I tighten the screw in the right knob enough that I can't push the sight down, then the windage knob won't turn. One click looser and I can, but again, I can push the sight down with my thumb. Tried disassembling, cleaning, lubing, same thing.

[Bill D]

What Die set do you use for the M1 Garand?

[Bert2368]

I am using an RCBS #14803 small base 30-06 2 die set, with a Vickerman die for seating these long cast boolits straight.

For my '03 Springfield cast loads I full length size whatever 1x brass I get my hands on before my first reloading with the same die set, then use a Redding neck size die only for the next several reloads. I keep the brass from these two separated-

[Bill D]

Question besides the small base RCBS die set what other die set will work for reloading the M1 Garand?

[madsenshooter]

I've always used the Lee standard die. Long time ago some old highpower shooters told me Lee dies size cases less than other brands. I've got to compare many different brands over the years and that does seem to hold true.

[sqlbullet]

I have both a small base RCBS and a regular RCBS. My Garands don't care which dies I use.

The guys at the CMP forums are adamant that any full length die will work fine for reloading the Garand.

[Bert2368]

Garand chambers seem to run a bit large compared to bolt gun chambers, including the Springfield in my (limited!) experience. Some of the 1X milsurp range pickup brass fired through Garands I've got has been a BEAR to re size.

The small base die sets aren't likely needed for range shooting in a frequently cleaned Garand that doesn't get run for thousands of rounds and covered with mud and sand- It's just the set I happened to pick up used here when I started to load 30-06. I suspect it works the brass more than really needed. OTOH, I know my reloads for semi auto will chamber in just about anything.

[madsenshooter]

Yea, you're right Bert, most GI Garand chambers are spacious. I've seen the difference between a GI M-14 chamber and a NM M-14 chamber, there's a place for a small base die perhaps. I had a NM M1A at one time, I used a Lee die with it too, and my reloads were a tight fit in it. I imagine that some of those Garands with custom barrels have tight chambers too.

[dualsport]

I have gotten away with neck sizing only for my Garand, when reusing my own brass. But, I do single load and always check to make sure the bolt is closed good. Maybe that'll change after a few more firings and I'll have to full length size then. I use generic RCBS FL dies for the '06.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Yea, I got a problem with the sight on mine. If I tighten the screw in the right knob enough that I can't push the sight down, then the windage knob won't turn. One click looser and I can, but again, I can push the sight down with my thumb. Tried disassembling, cleaning, lubing, same thing.

Tighten the screw so that you can't push the sight down. Then try pushing on the screw (elevation side) with your left thumb while turning the windage knob with your right hand. Pushing on the screw with your left thumb relieves some of the pressure and allows the windage knob to turn while keeping the sight tight enough to not creep down under recoil.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Dualsport, most experienced Garand (and other semi-auto rifle shooters) HIGHLY recommend that you full length size all brass for semi-autos. Any semi-auto with a heavy floating firing pin, like the Garand, have the potential to set off a round (usually with a high primer, etc) when the bolt slams shut, aka "slam-fire". While this is obviously scary, it is not by itself disaterous if the rifle is pointed in a safe direction as it should be. However if the brass is not fully sized it could produce enough resistance that the gun is out of battery when it slam-fires, and that IS as serious problem that will cause damage to the rifle and possibly the shooter.
Also, most slam-fires occur during single loading. Because the round is not being stripped out of the magazine (which absorbs some of the energy, slowing the bolt) it closes with more force, increasing the likelyhood of a slam-fire. I'm not suggesting that you don't single load, we do it all the time during Highpower matches. But I am encouraging you to full length size all your brass for semi-autos.

[dualsport]

Dang! Now you got me thinking. I neck size for the increased accuracy potential and case life, even was thinking of trying a Lee collet on these cb Garand loads. It won't take any longer to FL size, I'll think on this a bit. I think there's a fine line when trying to shoot cbs in a Garand between typical accuracy tricks like seating out to touch the lands for instance. I have been careful to make sure my loads don't hang up before the bolt closes where with a bolt action I'd usually want a little engagement with the lands. I think the answer is going to be selling the Garand and getting a nice 03-A3. Better for what I do anyway. In the meantime I'll FL size my next batch for safety's sake and compare the accuracy. Brass life isn't that big a deal to risk anything over. I can get 1,000 30-06 cases from Bartlett's for a reasonable price.

[madsenshooter]

I've set mine up to size the least amount. The rounds worked well in both my Garand and my Madsen, so I didn't have to keep them seperate. I smoke the neck and set it back just a couple thousandths. Using benchrest primers, I have had one slamfire in thousands of rounds. That was with an M1A. I had the rifle pointed at the ground, dropped the cartridge fully into the chamber and let fly the bolt. It was a surprise! I nearly shot the tire on my car! Could be it had a high primer, but I doubt it, that's something I habitually check, even when loading for something other than an autoloader.

Thanks Griz, that does work, a little awkward on the line when in prone, but better than not moving it at all.

[GrizzLeeBear]

madsenshooter, glad I could help. I had the same problem this summer with mine. I just got it last winter, so this summer was the first season I shot the Garand. It would move down a notch about every 2 - 3 shots.
I hadn't learned how to properly tighten it before our local clubs Garand match. During slow prone I kept an eye on it after each shot, so I could move it back up if needed, which it did 3 or 4 times, and managed a 95 or 96. Knowing that it would move down during rapid fire prone I had an idea. I moved the sight up 2 clicks and used a 6 oclock hold (I normally shoot a center of mass hold) and fired my first two rounds - PING! - reloaded and tried for a low COM, or "flat tire" hold for the next two, then gradually work the front blade up the black for the remaining shots, ending up with the last two covering the black with the front sight. The target came back up with a nice round group centered on the target! Score was 93 or thereabouts! During standing slow fire, I moved the sight back up to my normal zero since it had crept down again during rapid prone. Keeping an eye on it after each shot again I managed a solid 92 in "awfulhand" for a total score of 281, which was good enough for a gold medal and the high score for the match!
In talking with one of the more experienced HP shooters in the club after the match (who has been to Perry 34 times!), he taught me the trick to keeping it tight and using pressure on the opposite side of the screw when adjusting windage. Now it stays put. I know this wasn't Camp Perry, but it sure was satisfying to shoot such a good score with a loose elevation knob and some "yankee enginuity".

[MakeMineA10mm]

For resizing, the RCBS X-Die is on my shopping list. Because they have such generous chambers, I'm not getting the Small Base version. If it works as advertised, it should give long case life while still allowing full-length resizing.

[Baja_Traveler]

I've been using the X-Die with my Garand with excellent results. I'm shooting 34 grains of 4895 under a 311299 sized .310 and lubed with Carnuba Red.
I've been using my Garand in the Military rifle silhouette match here at Pala, and having tons of fun knocking down steel with it. A much more enjoyable past time than dull CMP matches...

[Rich/WIS]

Went to the range today to try my first cast loads for my HRA SG. I loaded 8 each of 36, 37, 38, 39 and 40 grains of IMR 4064 behind a RCBS 308-165, sized .308, Hornady GC and FC cases. Cases were FL resized and expanded before loading. The 36 gr load shortcycled one , but all others ran fine. The 36 and 37 gr loads were wicked accurate, about 2" at 100 yds. Groups opened slightly as charges went up, the higher the charge the larger the group. Interesting was the fact that with NM ammo I cannot shoot groups this small.

[new2cast]

I came across this forum via a google search. I liked it so much I decided to join! I wrote the Bob S load down and I plan to try cast bullets for the first time in my Garand! very excited about cast....

Great thread!

[MakeMineA10mm]

I came across this forum via a google search. I liked it so much I decided to join! I wrote the Bob S load down and I plan to try cast bullets for the first time in my Garand! very excited about cast....

Great thread!

AWESOME!! WELCOME!!! This place is amazingly helpful.

After 25 years of casting and reloading, including owning my own casting and reloading business for awhile, I was amazed at how much more I could learn from these guys here.

[Bert2368]

The snow on the range has receded.

42 gr of IMR 4831 topped with a tuft of Dacron behind an RCBS 308-200 Sil sized .310. Both the Garand and '03 Springfield seem to like this- Without the Dacron the groups were nearly twice as wide. The ammount of unburnt powder laying on the tarp I put out to catch the brass on was impressive...

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/Bert2368/photo-60.jpg

[new2cast]

It's been awhile since I last read through everything but I have been considering true economy load for the Garand.

I know that the 13 grains of red dot works really well for .30 bolt gunners....why not in the Garand?

I'm pretty sure it won't cycle which can be an advantage (increased brass life)

I was going to pop a 200 or 210 boolit on 11 grains of red dot and work my up (no filler).

What do y'all think?

[MakeMineA10mm]

I think your concept is sound. I've never shot that light of a load in the Garand, so I'm not sure how much the action will open up. I'm sure there is some "middle-ground" where the action will open just far enough to partially eject the case and then close on same, thereby crushing the mouth. I rather agree with you that the Red Dot load would be too light to get there, though...

For my super-light load, I shoot 7.5grs of W231 with a 185gr boolit and no dacron. So far, I've shot this only in my '03 Springfields, but I can tell you that these fast-powder/low-velocity loads will drop really fast, so that they're not much use past 50 yards. In addition, without the dacron (and possibly with), there can be verticle stringing, simply because there's so little powder in the case that ignition is erratic. (This is not to say inconsistent. My super-light loads have always gone "bang" with no hang-fires or misfires, but my theory is that the small charge of powder burns differently from one shot to the next, depending on how it catches fire and burns. This is only partially related to where it is in the case, though the dacron -- or tipping the muzzle up in between each shot -- does make it better.)

I wonder how the "classic" 16.0grs of 2400 does as far as cycling the mechanism in the Garand? It might be getting close to that mouth-pincher, but, again, I haven't tried it in the M-1 yet.

[Cadillo]

Hey Guys, Can one use Winchester's 165 gr soft point ammo in my M1 and not damage the operating rod?

I would not try it. Operating rods are expensive to repair or replace. If you want to shoot commercial ammo, get yourself a Schuster Gas Nut, and follow the instructions that come with it. Then you can shoot any ammo without regard for gas port pressure as long as the chamber pressure is within spec.

[340six]

I will be getting a SA Garand from CMP with a new barrel.
And have bought a group buy mould 311365
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=108231
I was going to size to .309 and use Red Carnuba and use 36 grains of IMR-4350
Does this sound like it would work? Also what would be a good Over All Length?
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/311365198GrSP001-1.jpg

[30CAL-TEXAN]

I will be getting a SA Garand from CMP with a new barrel.
And have bought a group buy mould 311365
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=108231
I was going to size to .309 and use Red Carnuba and use 36 grains of IMR-4350
Does this sound like it would work? Also what would be a good Over All Length?
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/311365198GrSP001-1.jpg

I am currently working up my M1 load for this boolit.

I have been sizing to .311 but this will depend more on how your bore slugs than anything else. If it is supposed to be a new barrel and it is truly .300/.308 than sizing to .309 should be fine.

Caranuba Red is exactly what I have been using and so far I think it is great. I am also going to try BAC later this summer.

I have never used 4350 so I can't help you there, all of my M1 loads been with 4064 or 4895.

I have tried a couple of overall lengths and my final choice has just been to seat to the crimp groove. While this does leave the gas check slightly below the case neck I have found that seating it out any longer (in my rifle at least) leads to quite a bit of boolit nose damage.

[Stoats]

Caranuba Red is exactly what I have been using and so far I think it is great. I am also going to try BAC later this summer.


having used both, I would say that Carnuba red is the better of the 2.

I used BAC 1st, then switched over to the Red, and won't go back.

[340six]

having used both, I would say that Carnuba red is the better of the 2.

I used BAC 1st, then switched over to the Red, and won't go back.
I did the same even got rid of the last 12 sticks of BAC I use Red in everything now!
The even the slow 45acp does well with it. It is much cleaner shooting, does not gun up the bullet seating dies and after a few days of lubing bullets is not sticky any more.
Do wish he had a 100% non sticky formula

[Digger]

Yes , agree 100 % , .. this is a good thread for info ....
Didn't realize there were so many 308 garand people around.
Been paying attention to BruceB 's thread about his series of sessions with his M1-a quite a bit.

I have a fun little piece that I am looking forward to setting up for this summer , .. a Arlington Ordnance M-1 308 "tanker" .... Loads of fun at the range let me tell you ...
I know it's not a garand for all the purist out there but it has been shooting the surplus very nicely and now that I have my casting and shooting down pretty good for my hand gun calibers I am looking forward to putting some cast thru my garand ........:D
This thread is going to help out a lot as I have to pick up a mold , dies , brass ... etc. , with all the tips given out here I am getting pumped !
Keep up the information flow guys ! ....... thanks

digger

[340six]

I bought some H-3895 for use with the 311365 198-200 grain group buy NOE
34 grains of H-4895 sound right? what OAL?

[Kestrel4k]

I know this is an older thread but I wanted to thank the posters above for the various info for CB in the M1 Garand. I have 8 lbs of WC852 ('slow lot' / comparable to IMR4831, that I haven't been able to find a use for) and the # 311284 - so it sounds like I have a good place to start.

Dumb question on this load however (I haven't shot CB from rifles for many years); will ~40-45 grs produce significantly less muzzle blast from my Garand compared to M2 ball?
The reason that I am asking is that in the last few years I have went towards shooting suppressed (in other rifles) and am less & less interested in moving in the reverse direction.
Thanks,

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I have used Lyman 311284 and 311291 in my garands with decent results with 4895 and 3031. The 284's need to be seated a bit deeper so that the OAL doesn't interfere with seating the full clip, but it doesn't seem to effect the grouping. I have used 4831 but it burned somewhat dirtier than the other two powders. No problem with lead shaving or gas port fouling. LLS

[Kestrel4k]

I know this is an older thread but I wanted to thank the posters above for the various info for CB in the M1 Garand. I have 8 lbs of WC852 ('slow lot' / comparable to IMR4831, that I haven't been able to find a use for) and the # 311284 - so it sounds like I have a good place to start.

Dumb question on this load however (I haven't shot CB from rifles for many years); will ~40-45 grs produce significantly less muzzle blast from my Garand compared to M2 ball?
The reason that I am asking is that in the last few years I have went towards shooting suppressed (in other rifles) and am less & less interested in moving in the reverse direction.
Thanks,
Sorry to bump this thread with a re-quote of my post from last December, but I'm still interested in the solution to my above query if anybody with more experience has an opinion.

Looking for some guidance on a minimum load; the caveat is that this 'slow lot' of WC852 should be slightly harder to ignite than typical 4831 - so minimum loads are somewhat riskier.
I know that 4895 might be a better choice for going low, but this 8 lb jug of 852 is all I have to work with.
Thanks,

[Outpost75]

I use the HM2-.312-160-5 bullet, based on the Ed Harris design, with 40 grains of IMR4064 in LC cases with WLR primers.
Groups at 100 and 200 yards are shown. Rifle is a CMP rebuild with new spring kit, so operates stiffly and lighter loads would not cycle. If you rifle is older, smoother operating with tired springs try 35 grains and see how it flies.


170700170701

[Scharfschuetze]

Sorry to bump this thread with a re-quote of my post from last December, but I'm still interested in the solution to my above query if anybody with more experience has an opinion.

Looking for some guidance on a minimum load; the caveat is that this 'slow lot' of WC852 should be slightly harder to ignite than typical 4831 - so minimum loads are somewhat riskier.
I know that 4895 might be a better choice for going low, but this 8 lb jug of 852 is all I have to work with.
Thanks,

The Garand and cast boolits is always a balancing act when trying to get accuracy with function. Almost everyone who posts on the M1 Garand and cast boolit threads agree that 33 to 36 grains of 4895 or 4064 works in their rifles with a heavier boolit. That's the recipe for my Garands, but you can do a search for M1 Garands and probably find many different takes on the matter.

My thinking is that the slow versions of WC852 will work, but as you surmise, it may not combust well with the reduced load levels used for cast boolits. I don't recall any posts singing its praises with cast in the M1, but I may have missed something. Perhaps a magnum primer with the 852 will help things along. Why not just buy a pound of moderately burning stick powder of known performance that operates within the needed parameter?

As far as your original question regarding muzzle blast: I'd bet that M2 Ball will be louder, but by how much is hard to say. I'd wear ear protection with either.

[wiljen]

I'm going to advise against reduced loads of 852 in anything.

my reasoning is:
1.) 4350 and slower powders used in reduced charges have been implicated in SEE cases or at the very least odd pressure excursions.
2.) Reducing ball powders tends to result in erratic performance and strange pressure occurrences and when being advised to light it with a magnum primer, I think you might be begging for that experience.

I'd get some 4895, 4064, or 5744 that you can fill the case with and get good results. Keep the 852 for something where you can fill the case and shoot it. (300 WM is a great round for burning lots of 4350 or 4831).

[rromano158]

Hello all, I've posted this same message on different threads hoping to get the most knowledgeable info as possible.
I was able to finally get an M1 Garand in my collection. I am wanting to reload cast "boolits" for this particular rifle. I've reloaded for other 30-06 rifles (bolt action and pump action). I have a question about which mold to get. I am looking at the NOE molds 311332, 311365, 311299 or the 312299. Can anyone give me a recommendation for one or another? Would I have feeding issues with round nose cast "boolits (the 311299/312299) versus the spire points (311332/311365)? I planned on using either IMR4898 or H4898 starting at 30 grains and working up. Whatever advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated!

[Bert2368]

Shooting cast in the Garand is more of a FUN thing for me than a measured accuracy game?

Clearing 8 pop cans full of water off the backstop with one clip of cast hand loads in about 10 seconds at 50 yards wearing only a T-shirt, hearing protection and the correct sling is MY idea of a good time with the Garand. It just puts a grin on your face without hurting your shoulder or your bank account. That gentle, slow push and seeing the cans fly away is addictive

I have had no failure to feed issues in my one and only M1 rifle from cast spire points including 311332 (duh!), round nose bullets such as 311291 or 311299, or even from bullets with a small flat point.

This M1 seems fairly forgiving of point shape compared to some shorter actions I have loaded cast for? In the small sampling of 7.62x39 and .308 auto rifles (and even some bolt guns) I personally have loaded for, it appears some round point projectiles and ESPECIALLY those with any type of FP may tend to impact at the breech to cause a jam. Most WERE designed for FMJ spitzer bullets.

311332 and RCBS 308 200 Sil. fed well in the Garand, but accuracy was so-so compared to 311291 or 311299 which also fed well. Heavier boolits have usually been better, I use slow for cast boolit powders for cast in the Garand as per Bob.

I should go back to work with a few other .30 moulds acquired since when I last loaded a bunch of testers for the Garand. Too may milsurps, too little time.

I ended up mounting a short rail that replaces the upper hand guard and an EER scope to play with the Garand loads, my 55 YO + eyes just were not good enough with the standard issue irons out past 50 yards.

We extended our rifle range past 240 yards this year, so maybe more on longer distances later.

[Hick]

The only drawback I've found shooting cast in my M1 was getting them to chamber. The throat on my M1 is very good (little wear). I've used several different cast bullets with great success-- but then a friend gave me some 311284 to try out I had bolt lockup problems - the rounds would chamber but too tightly-- and then the bolt would not easily open. After much experimenting I discovered that the crimp groove on the 311284's made the nose hit the rifling on crimped loads. I took a set of cases and trimmed the 0.01 under the standard trim length and they worked fine.

[guicksylver]

I believe the pictures will tell what needs to be said...except the reason the 4th and 5th shots went out was because the target turned into a faded grey mass..(old eyes)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=186182&d=1485374104&thumb=1 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=186182&d=1485374104)186186