Bullet hardness and obturation

[dave roelle]

Has anyone investigated "obturation" relative to bullet hardness ? ----how hard is "too hard to fully seal things up" ?

Certainly powder charge figures in the discussion so i'm thinking about the more common 45 caliber loadings from say 65 to 75 grains

Thanks in advance

Dave

[country gent]

I use 20-1 in my paper patched loads and get good accuracy many things affect this lead hardness and size of profectile. wieght, A lighter bullet starts moving faster and easier than one that is heavier. Bullet fit to bore is also a factor a few thousandths under bore dia and you have that much ore to obtrate, a finger snug fir only has rifling depth to obtrate up.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt has looked into that quite a bit. Dan Theodore and Kenny Wasserburger have also done quite a bit of investigating along those lines.
I've found in my 44's that some bullets respond quite well to 16-1 alloy, and some don't seem to matter whether 16-1 or 20-1. I do have a small supply of #2 certified, but am hesitant to try that mostly due to the limited supply and being plumb happy with the 16 and 20. In Perry's book he dives into bullet hardness , and along with Winchester catalogs, we can see that in the late days of the Creedmoor era, 14-1 and 11-1 were highly thought of alloy.
I do believe that how hard an alloy can be also depends quite a bit on the bore to bullet diameter relationship, and I suspect that shooting hardball alloy with bullets patched to groove would probably turn out just fine..

[dave roelle]

Thanks Guy's----------------certainly alloys to 11/1 can work then------------i'm going to test some harder, but the only results will be grouping and leading--------------it just doesn't snow enough here to use that method of bullet recovery :)

PP to bore in this case

Keep well stay safe

Dave

[Don McDowell]

There has been some bullet capture study done with patched bullets using boxes filled with oil soaked sawdust. But in the end it's what the target tells that matters more than what a recovered bullet looks like.. If an exceptable target can't be produced, that's when capturing bullets to investigate blowby and all the happy stuff that goes with that comes in handy.
Keep us posted Dave.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don is laying it square. Perry's book is a great resource, the results of a special match at Creedmoor listed all the shooter's Data even Bullet alloy! And also their method of Patching! This was 1879. I can not stress the importance, of this book to the modern shooter wishing to try or use PP in competition. He even stresses the importance of increasing powder charges to hold the vertical at long range. This mirrors my own findings of shooting 1000 yards and further, these past 20 odd years with my 21 year old Shiloh.

KW

[Deadpool]

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCommentsCBAlloys.htm

Fryxell's formula for matching hardness to the chamber pressure is:

The chamber pressure (PSI) needed for decent obturation = the maximum bullet hardness (BHN, Brinnel Hardness Number) X 1422.

[Don McDowell]

Old catalogs are invaluable for the information they contain. The 1875 Remington Catalog, page 30 at the bottom of the page begins to make reference to bullet alloy. It states in part that it is now know to be a mistake to use the purest of lead, the bullets even when made quite hard would upset with the powder charges now in use. Then goes on to say that it is a decided advantage to harden the lead using 3/4 oz of tin to the pound of lead. Again this was 140 years ago,, smokeless was not quite yet on the horizon..
We have a long ways to go to overcome some of the stuff we thought to be actual fact 40 years ago.. Somehow this information now being brought back from the dead was totally over looked when this bpcr craze got started back in the 1970's.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

These old catalogs have been a wealth of information. Metals are weighed in troy ounces, so that's quite a bit of tin. They also lay to rest many misconceptions once thought true.
KW

[Don McDowell]

Kenny that's sort of like I said the other day when we visited. How in the world did stuff like contained in that Remington catalog and Sharpes book escape folks?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don, I don't think other than Brother Garbe knew. He long ago was the guy that said 1-20 alloy. And so few of use are actually shooting PP bullets. Fact is some have purposely over looked the data available, to further the pure lead patched Creedmoor bullet concept or rumor.

My own patches are .900 wide about 110 is over the base one bullet is .120 over, so .790 to .780 up the side of the bullet, of course depends on the bullet length, my other patch template is just over an inch.
KW

[BrentD]

The 16:1 alloy of Sharps LR bullets has been known by current shooters for decades. But few if any, went there. The bullet designs that they shot in the 1980 and 1990s and even into the early 2000 were generally quite blunt and really didn't require the stronger alloys. So, even though 16:1 was well known to be the alloy of the old guys, not many felt the need to go there.

[Don McDowell]

I know back in the late 70's early 80's were were shooting the blunt sharps style bullets cast from the same pure lead we used in the round ball guns. I'm wondering also where did those long freebored throats come from? None of the folks like Kurt and Dan T etc that have done chamber casts on original guns seem to have seen anything like that...
But be all that as it may, we do have the good information to go from now.

[BrentD]

The long throats came from the influence of smokeless philosophy and add to that the strange, unexplainable hopeful monster of a chamber that Wolfgang Droege created in some wild nightmare one night. That one is truly a mystery and why he stuck with it for so long is another mystery.

[dave roelle]

Folks -------thanks again for the information !!!! What has been reported is certainly helpful, but doesn't give us the "upper limits" of the obturation/hardness question.

Thanks to Don and Kenny (get well soon sir) for the historical data !!!!! their reference materials are extremely valuable and not readily available.

The Fryxell equation helps, but i'm betting its theoretical not empirical.

I hope to do some limited testing soon and see if i can find the upper limit of hardness, at least in my Shiloh 45-70----------seems that a hardness just below that limit would support the best accuracy----fully sealed bore with lowest distortion of the bullets shape.

Please keep the information stream alive

Dave

[Don McDowell]

Dave I'm looking forward to seeing your results. I am betting that where you end up on the hardness will be quite surprising to a good many.

[dave roelle]

Perhaps Don-----i just finished my Brinell tester so i'll have some reasonably accurate data---at least from a relative hardness perspective-----------i'll harden things up until i some lead show up and see what acurracy results.

Heading to the ranch hog chasing

Dave

[Lead pot]

The alloy is not the only thing that regulates bullet obturation from what I'm seeing.
Bullet weight, diameter, ogive shape, powder charge, and wad stack/material, flat based, cup based, dish based hollow based, as well as the relation of hardness and diameter of the bullet. All of these variables effect the setback and obturation.
Using 1/11, 1/14, tin/lead alloys for a PP bullet you better make sure that it is patched slightly over bore diameter or even groove diameter would be better. Some of the bullets used by the ODG's where more then a cup based bullet that where more like a thicker skirt hollow based bullet. I have looked at old Remington bullets that where thick walled hollow based and some had GG with a shallow hollow base, not cup base. If any of you have shot front stuffers with a pure lead mini ball and looked at some recovered bullets you would find that when you approach 75 + grains of powder you will see the skirts blown out and I'm sure the ODG's knew this and used a harder alloy for the cartridge rifles to prevent the skirt blowout, I cant say that for sure.
I see a lot of gas cuts with PP bullets that where cast with alloy harder then 1/16 T/L patched slightly under bore especially with a improper wad stack. Also a hard bullet patched to bore that did not get upset enough to make solid land engraving that stripped and most likely did not get the proper rotation to stay stable at long range.
Nose setback is also very evident using a alloy not balanced with the ogive design. A creedmoor type of ogive will set back more then a long elliptical. A .45-70 will not get setback as much as a .45-90 or .45-120, I don't have a .45-110 so I have never seen what bullets do with that caliber.

You can get by using a alloy mix 1/20 T/L in a .45-70 with minimal nose setback and it will fill the grooves very well, but shot with 110 gr of 1F from a .45-120/3-1/4 a money bullet will look like a postell if the nose gets set back straight.
A alloy using a mix 50/50 WW lead will hold a nose as well as 1/17 tin/lead. The antimony does wonders for holding the nose profile.
A 1/16 tin lead alloy will let you get by pretty well. I have never seen any evidence that I need any alloy harder for a PP bullet then 1/16.
I use 1/19 that is a mix of 19#lead 1# 95/5 solder that has 5% antimony in the one pound roll. This holds all of my bullets with a very slight shortening the over all length. If you want to get the most from your bullet, it helps if you do a little work to see what your rifle and load does to it. If the bullet looks just as good shot as it did before it was shot then it's up to you what the down range looks like.
Kurt
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/bd09622c-b195-4417-b5ec-55e9fda0bc63_zpsd562ac3d.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/bd09622c-b195-4417-b5ec-55e9fda0bc63_zpsd562ac3d.jpg.html)

[Don McDowell]

Kurt what are the details of that bullet you have pictured there. It's fascinating to see the paper grain embedded in the base, the case mouth bite, and then the definet end of the patch and the obtruration of the bullet.. Neat stuff.

[dave roelle]

Thanks Kurt-------------your input is always valuable----------and certainly their are many variables !!!!!------------do you have any idea the hardness of the 19/1 + antimony bullet ?

I'll move ahead and see what happens to harder than 1/16 air cooled--with my current wad column---worse case will be a lead mine to clean up-----best case will be finding the upper limit of hardness and hopefully a touch better bullet flight.

Again Thanks Kurt

Dave

[BrentD]

Folks -------thanks again for the information !!!! What has been reported is certainly helpful, but doesn't give us the "upper limits" of the obturation/hardness question.

Thanks to Don and Kenny (get well soon sir) for the historical data !!!!! their reference materials are extremely valuable and not readily available.

The Fryxell equation helps, but i'm betting its theoretical not empirical.

I hope to do some limited testing soon and see if i can find the upper limit of hardness, at least in my Shiloh 45-70----------seems that a hardness just below that limit would support the best accuracy----fully sealed bore with lowest distortion of the bullets shape.

Please keep the information stream alive

Dave

Dave since you don't like theory, then you really have to answer the question on your own. Like Kurt said, nose shape, powder brand, granulation and even batch may matter. So will many other things - all just small additional effects but that's what you need to consider if you want a "perfect" answer, so you will have to get it empirically.

The good news is that paper patches can tell you something about this more easily than other bullets. Your patches will give you clues. Look for burn through in the grooves, where hot gasses jet past the wad and bullet before it bumps up (if it bumps up) and burn the patches. If this is really severe, you will get major gas cutting and leading but the patches will tell you even without the bullet to look at.

Here is a relatively is what relatively minor blow-by looks like on a patch - thanks to Larry Talley, as I recall.

132154

[.22-10-45]

In teresting stuff! I will be working with an original Ballard 4 1/2 Mid-Range .40-70 this year..plan on feeding it P.P. & Holy Black..what is this Perry book you are refering to? I sure would like to get my hands on it. Thanks!

[shooter93]

The name and author's full name of the 'Perry book" ?

[dave roelle]

Hi Brent:

Its not that i don't appreciate theory----its just a theory until someone tests it------i read a lot of opinions, i'm sure some have merit-----------very very little evidence is apparent.

Your examples and Kurts have merit

You are correct in that i'll have to test my particular circumstances----hope to get some of that done this weekend-------------I was curious about the upper limit of hardness as a guideline to begin testing, i had not seen anything other than "opinion"

Again thanks for the thoughts and the example !!!!!!!!!!

Dave

[Don McDowell]

Perry's book. http://www.amazon.com/Observations-Shooting-Improved-Including-Silicate/dp/1295485397/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1424998997&sr=1-1&keywords=Modern+Observations+of+Rifle+shooting

[Lead pot]

Don.

That bullet is a fresh one I not long ago dug out. I found 5 with a metal detector so I can study them to get ready for the upcoming season. I have over 300 out in the snow this year I want to match the alloy with the load and alloy for the calibers I will use this year.
I just got a call from Joe Williams and he said my barrel is on the way to CPA but I don't know if I will get the rifle before last of May or not so I been working on the .45-70 and the .45-90 with that bullet so I want to have the profile stay as close to it was before I shot it..
The paper grain is the same from the base to the patch end. The light reflection wiped out the clarity of the shank. The shank diameter is the same from the base to the patch end. The Ogive did not change in length but the total length of that bullet only shortened .022" that is around .040" less then the 1/16 T/L alloy normally shortens that bullet. But like I said there are still 300 (.44's and .45's) out in the snow and the 4" we got last night and zero temps, plus they are calling for another foot coming it will be a while I see more.

Don that bullet is Brent Danielson's design. I shoot with him for a fill in now and then when one of his partners cannot make the match and I was fortunate enough to get that mould. That is Brent's prolate. Mine weighs in at 517 grains with the alloy I use. 1/16 tin/lead it drops out of the mould at 514 gr.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave.

When you mention lead mine, this makes me think you are using a GG bullet. I have no idea what my alloy would work like with a GG. I don't shoot them, so I don't know what the mix I use will do with them.
I use the 95/5 tin antimony solder. Yes it is costly for a one pound roll at $21. but that alloy is a lot closer in purity then I can get from RotoMetal most likely but I like it and it does what I want it to do.
I cant tell you what the hardness is, I just have a Saeco and a Lee tester and I don't trust them for accuracy I just use them for checking consistence of the alloy.

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Kurt thanks for the bullet info. I talked with CPA this afternoon, and my rifle should be shipped in about 6 weeks, the wood and action are done, it will get barreled in the next batch. Hoping maybe to have it in time for Cody's April match, if not then for sure will trot it out at Alliance.

[BrentD]

Dave,
The Bhn on my 16:1 bullets made with the purest lead and tin you can hope to get this side of lab grade material, and direct from the smelters, is 11.54 Bhn on an LBT tester (not mine). I don't know what that is good for but my bullets look just like the one Kurt posted. They are darn good bullets.

Kurt, I take it you are coming to Lodi!! Let's hope spring gets there first!

I don't know why but you seem to have all of our snow. We had maybe 4-8 left from the 8" we got a couple weeks ago, and yesterday added 3" to it. Not enough to bother with plowing. I'm going to rebuild my sawdust box this spring and use that for a few experiments. I'm interested to see what my muzzleloader's bump up is like in comparison to the Green Mt. Barrels. The muzzleloader has Pope rifling. Very different and with significantly less space to fill with bumped up lead. So, that might be an advantage. The one match I shot with it sure was impressive. It really screamed for accuracy and I've only used one load in it ever. Same for my Long Range rifle. I just pour my silhouette load into both of them and it just works.

Dave, theory is not the same as opinion. Theory emerges from observation, lots of them, coupled with mechanistic understanding. It's a just a pet peeve of mine but most folks mistake theory for what is it. The term "hypothesis" might more correctly fit your notion of theory.

But for what you want, just jump in at 16:1 as a good starting point and work up from there. When you see patches like the one above, you have reached a limit and have to either get softer or build a better wad, or something like that to stopper that bore.

[Lead pot]

Brent.

Yes I figure on coming to Lodi. The Doctors got me back in fair shape again good enough so I can push the gun cart again anyway. Just could not do that last fall. The Quigley and Baker Mt. just about put me on the wrong side of the green grass :)
Right now if weather permits and If I can get the Gypsy wagon to move I figure on Effingham. I will give the silhouette game a try once.

I have a front stuffer I build with a GM barrel on it and it shoots just fine, but I wore out several lead lapping slugs making it shoot.
My flint southern Mountain rifle has a round bottom Rice barrel and that rifle is a tack driver on cross sticks. But both are round ball rifles.

[BrentD]

Kurt, the only long range muzzleloader I shoot is one I built (with help) and it is an 18 twist. Wish it was 16. But the Pope rifling was a real long shot for me and it seems to have really paid off. The rifle just plain shoots! And with zero load development. At 1000 it shot 91 calling my own wind and racing up and down to load and fire. I know I should do some load development on it, but it's hard to know how to improve on that w/o having regular access to a 1000 yds range.

Good on being in Lodi. It will be a great time as always. The best match in the country as far as I'm concerned and the second biggest behind the nationals. This year, it might be even bigger.

Say, don't forget there is a good 2-day silhouette Match at Wright City Mo. It is an NRA regional - last weekend in May this year. And I know there is space on my firing point.

Brent

[Lead pot]

Well a 91 at the 1K line is respectable with what ever the caliber is, front stuffer of a suppository.
I don't want to run that far south so close to the Baker Mt. shoot and the Q a week later.
Ft. Grayling Mich might be a match as well as Alma Mich. might be a go also. They are inside a 5 hour drive for me.

[BrentD]

Wish I could make Grayling and Alma easier. Raton is closer, hard to believe, but it is at least relative to Grayling.

[.22-10-45]

Thank you Don. Have it on order.

[Don McDowell]

ubecha Tim, enjoy when it gets there, it sure offers a ton of insight into what those guys were doing. Kenny did us all a big favor when he found and told us about it.

[Lead pot]

I heard camp McCoy might be opening the 1000 yard line for matches if they haven't already. That would be closer for both of us.
Well time to git.

Kurt

[BrentD]

Where is McCoy? I'll have to google it.

[dave roelle]

Kurt-----------i'm shooting PP brooks money nose --------the lead mine reference was to what might happen when i blow through the patch :)

Brent--------------"hypothesis" is more correct-----thanks for the hardness number-------i'll start there and increase in appropriate steps to the upper limit, witnessed by burnt patches and or lead in the barrel :)

Thanks for the information gentlemen, its been enlightening

Ya'll have a fun shooting season

Dave

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I have been by that fort McCoy coming home from Camp Perry, had a breakdown in Tomha.

Kurt good to see you posting.

I agree with Brent, jump in at 16-1, I had a great vist on the phone with Chip Mate a few years back over this very subject he wanted to know about the 16-1, I think we all got on that band wagon right about then, I often think about going to 11-1. Just for long range, wad stack I feel plays a huge factor, based on the snow bank reports pictures, of Kurt's.

i believe Kurt's alloy is very similar to Methford's alloy, as is Mike's with the use of Antimony-wheel wts.

Perry mentions major changes in bullet shape were being explored by shooters and the test results would be forth coming in the 4th edition, sadly that never came to pass. He also mentions the up coming publication of a new updated Gildersleve edition, it must of never been done. Pity as it most likely would of included findings from Metford as the original volume did. It is a very rare book, I am glad to have one in my library.

KW

[montana_charlie]

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/bd09622c-b195-4417-b5ec-55e9fda0bc63_zpsd562ac3d.jpg



It's fascinating to see the paper grain embedded in the base, the case mouth bite, and then the definet end of the patch and the obtruration of the bullet.Don.

The paper grain is the same from the base to the patch end. The light reflection wiped out the clarity of the shank.t

Kurt,
Don thinks the paper impression is 'fascinating' on your bullet, but 'deformation' due to patching to groove when it appears on mine.
I can't decide if he doesn't know what he thinks ... or if his evaluation of the effect changes depending on who patched the bullet.


Could you say what diameter yours was when naked ... and when wrapped?
I'm still trying to confirm an 'hypothesis', and I DO understand that your alloy is (probably) harder than anything I have tried, so far.


If the bullet looks just as good shot as it did before it was shot then it's up to you what the down range looks like.
I would say (and I have) that for guys who are not able to shoot at long distances, your words provide them a way to answer questions they otherwise don't have an opportunity to address.

CM

[Don McDowell]

In Seller's book there's a letter from Bodine to the Sharps factory requesting his Centennial rifle to be rebarreled. What is interesting in that letter he goes on to tell them that he wants the grooves deeper than their standard (makes shooting dirty easier), that he wants the bullets to just fit down the bore when carried by the weight of the rod, and to be no harder than 15-1. He also said he thought their paper to thick...

[Gunlaker]

That's interesting. I'm going to have to re-read that book. I haven't really looked at it for a few years.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Charlie.

That bullet is wrapped to .4514" and the naked diameter is .4442" the paper I use with this bullet is .0021".
I patch my bullets as close to .002" above bore diameter as I can for all my rifles. It makes a hard push to chamber the rifle but this is where I get my accuracy, but you need a clean or moist throat to get it chambered. But all of my rifles have a funnel tapered transition into the throat from 3 degree/into a 1.5 degree lead to the 5/1.5 tapered compound leads. This lets me shoot bullets patched one thousand under bore to groove diameter.

The grain finish I see on all of my recovered bullets. It makes no difference if the paper is a smooth 25% or a 100% cotton cockle finish.

I'm going to post a couple more pictures with this obturation subject and I will stop.
I tried to duplicate a single wad .45-70 load that I know one shooter uses with good effect but I also have seen some ???what happen??? type of hits that should not have been where they hit. This made me look into what is going on, and I found this.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1827_zps29787dfb.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_1827_zps29787dfb.jpg.html)
But my chamber is the regular .481" chamber wall Shiloh uses. Not a tighter PP chamber. But I will also say; my tight .44 chambers will also have this showing up but only with a 1/16 L/T or harder patched to or a 1/2 thousand under bore diameter. But very seldom with the tight chamber, but it does happen.

Here is a photo what goes on when a hard bullet is patched under bore diameter. I don't remember what the alloy was, but I think it was 1/16 T/L. I lost the details during a computer crash before I got it backed up.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/44jpg-1_zps45d1e776.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/44jpg-1_zps45d1e776.jpg.html)

[Lead pot]

Oh man Don,

I just went through with this extra deep groove thing :) and that barrel is now probably a jack handle. I put over a 1000 rounds through trying to find something that will work in it so I didn't have to send it back.
I have never seen a darker bore like a used cast iron soil pipe. It also took 2-3 times as many patches to get it clean after a days shooting. Also the excess vertical showing up.
By the way Don, Joe and company stood good behind the error and the new barrel is on it's way to CPA. I rate them right up there with Shiloh standing behind their product. Good people for sure.

[montana_charlie]

Charlie.
Here is a photo what goes on when a hard bullet is patched under bore diameter. I don't remember what the alloy was, but I think it was 1/16 T/L. I lost the details during a computer crash before I got it backed up.
So, even patched to bore (and under) will get that 'texture' from the paper ... and even on 'hard' bullets.
That doesn't surprise me, but may be eye-opening to others ... when all they know about their bullets is 'what the target says'.

I guess I can continue to disregard the guy who attributes the texture to patches that are "too tight, causing the bullet to go through contortions on it's way out of the muzzle".
( http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?42529-Paper-Patching-my-way&p=899428&viewfull=1#post899428 )

CM

[Don McDowell]

Kurt glad things are working out for you on that barrel. My Oregon barrel is a bit deeper grooves than is common at .005, but the darn thing sure shoots good with greasers, and cleans up really nice. When this weather breaks a bit I'll get on to the patched bullet testing. The few of those 434470's cast from 16-1 that I did shoot the last time out shot fairly well, but not quite as tight as I would like to have seen.
I did get a pretty good group from those bullets in the 44-77 , Hyde patched and no wad. But using the Napa rubber cork wad and the dry lubed felt wad shot better.

[Don McDowell]

Chris he (Bodine) did say that he preferred the round nosed bullets.

[dave roelle]

Gentlemen:

Again thanks for the continuing discussion and the pictures !!!!!!!!!!!! this kind of discussion and the information contained in it are EXTREMELY VALUABLE------i for one really appreciate the shared information.

Kurt: thanks for the details on "clearance" interesting stuff for sure

It seems to me that the thinnest patch and perhaps the hardest patch might be the path to better accuracy by keeping the bullet better centered -----certainly now i'll try my best to get a reliable snug "push fit" to allow harder alloys to "obturate enough to fully seat the parched slug within the barrel.

I'll be working though a variety of papers and bullet sizes this weekend to that end----hope to report something positive

Have a safe weekend

Dave

[shooter93]

Thanks Don...and here I thought I had every shooting book ever published by now.....smiles.

[Gunlaker]

Kurt, when you are seating those bullets patched a little over bore, do you ever run into problems seating the cartridge? I've tried going a bit larger than bore, but then every now and then I get a cartridge where the patch won't quite go into the bore and ends up looking like a rolled up sock on the bullet when I pull it out.

Don, that's interesting about the round nosed bullet. I have a little .444" 500gr BACO Creedmoor that I never got to shoot that well in the .45-70 so I tried them in the fast twist .45-90 for fire forming. They shot extremely well in that rifle. The nose is very short, the bullet is about 80% shank which is probably good for short range.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Shooter I think Kenny probably has one of the biggest collection of books of the Creedmoor era..

Chris I have a .444 "creedmoor" mould from Old West, it's a mostly shank bullet, set at about 1.3 inches it drops a bullet right at 500 grs and shoots reasonably well from the 45-70, but where it really shines is dropping the length to 1.1 and loading it over 75 grs of 2f .

[Lead pot]

Chris.

Yes it is a firm fit with the bullet patched a couple thousands over bore. But if you wipe or blow tube they slide right in. I can load a second round with out using the tube but it is a hard push.
Below are the typical chambers I use. If you look at the two .44-90 bottle neck chamber casts. The left cast is my first .44-90 Shiloh and it has the standard chamber they use. Notice the 45 degree transition into the lead, that is what is rolling your patch. The one on the right is a reamer I had made from a original Sharps #1 long range rifle used during the creedmoor matches that was in new condition, it looked unfired. It took me almost two years getting that cast by horse trading with him to get that cast so I could get a reamer made to match it. The original transition was a 3.5 degree and at that time I didn't want one this flat so I changed it to a 5 degree. I wish I would have left it as original now.
The bottom cast is what my .40-65 and .40-70 has. That is a 4 degree. and it is a tack driver.
My .44-100 Rem st has a 4 degree and I can show you a picture I took after shooting over 80 rounds forming brass with out the use of any fouling control at 200 yards and that big hole is 4 1/2" but I used a patched bullet 1-1/2 thousands under bore diameter just for forming the reduced cases to fit the chamber.
The 45 transition works ok but I changed all mine to the original except a couple of my rifles because I don't shoot them for competition.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0432.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0432.jpg.html)
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/40-65browning.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/40-65browning.jpg.html)

[Gunlaker]

Thanks Kurt and Don.

[.22-10-45]

Just wondering Lead Pot..in post 43, are those swaged or cast? If cast, who makes a .40 mould with a profile like that? Thanks.

[dave roelle]

Kurt--------------thanks much for the chamber information, i have had the "rolled up sock" incident as well-------------i'll have a discussion with my smith about that chamber modification.

Keep well and stay safe

Dave

[BrentD]

Kurt--------------thanks much for the chamber information, i have had the "rolled up sock" incident as well-------------i'll have a discussion with my smith about that chamber modification.

Keep well and stay safe

Dave

Shoot it a bunch before you modify anything. Many a chamber modification is counter productive. Be darn sure you know what you are doing if you dive in, 'cuz there ain't no goin' back.

[dave roelle]

Thanks Brent, i completely understand !!!!!!!-----------testing to start tomorrow weather permitting, alloying and hardness testing today.


Have a great weekend

[Lead pot]

Just wondering Lead Pot..in post 43, are those swaged or cast? If cast, who makes a .40 mould with a profile like that? Thanks.

That bullet is from a Buffalo Arms mould. That is the bullet Dave Jim and I spent some time on the phone when Dave started making moulds.
Right off the top of my head I don't know what the Jim number is but it is a .441" diameter 1.455" long and it weighs around 520 gr.
It came a little less in diameter then I wanted, but it is a fine shooter. I have one for the .40 of the same profile.

[Lead pot]

Dave,

That chamber is not a cure all and like Brent said you can screw up a good chamber if you don't match up the reamer with the existing chamber.


That .40-65 cast is out of my Browning BPCR that had a bad factory chamber so I had a throating reamer made to fix it but I had to go slightly deeper to get it all cleaned out. In fact when I size a .45-70 case down it fits perfectly with out having to trim it. It sure made a fine shooter out of it.

[BrentD]

I think the key to chambers is in Kurt's fitting the brass to the chamber. Ultimately, bore diameter paper patch bullets are best served by the tightest chamber you can get away with. Think of it like shooting a muzzleloader - perhaps the most accurate PPB rifle you can have. Anyway, there is no way you can cut away more of your chamber while making it tighter. So expect to fit new brass to it. And you might just be better served by fitting brass to the chamber you have now instead.

I'm also no fan of what is advertised as "The Paper Patch Chamber" as adversited around the internet. That of course, is bucking the current. What is currently claimed as"The Paper Patch Chamber" is a fine hunting chamber, but it's not one for the finest match accuracy in my opinion, but I think the numbers are on my side by a pretty good margin.

[Lead pot]

:) I have a couple chambers that I call a PP chamber because that is all that I can load in it. They are so tight that just a groove diameter bullet will just fit the unsized case.

[montana_charlie]

:) I have a couple chambers that I call a PP chamber because that is all that I can load in it. They are so tight that just a groove diameter bullet will just fit the unsized case.
Did you mean 'bore' diameter ... ?

Orville shoots chambers that are ~.470" in the neck, so the ID of a fired mouth is ~.450".

That is what I understand to be a "PP chamber" in the most fundamental sense of the term.

CM

[Don McDowell]

I'm of the opinion after going down this road, that if a person isnt' happy with the chamber for paper patch shooting, then rebarreling the rifle is the way to go.
Also agree with Brent, I'm not convinced the current rage on "paper patch chamber" is going to prove out.
I do think like Kurt, the chambers with the 45 * lead are not the best, and the really low angles such as the 4* that CPA puts in the 45-90, and the 7* Shiloh is now putting on the 44-77 make it easier to come up with both patched and grooved bullet loads.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I think the key to chambers is in Kurt's fitting the brass to the chamber. Ultimately, bore diameter paper patch bullets are best served by the tightest chamber you can get away with.

I'm also no fan of what is advertised as "The Paper Patch Chamber" as adversited around the internet. That of course, is bucking the current. What is currently claimed as"The Paper Patch Chamber" is a fine hunting chamber, but it's not one for the finest match accuracy in my opinion, but I think the numbers are on my side by a pretty good margin.

Brent,

I agree on on your statements, concerning the tightest chamber you can get away with.

what caught my attention the most.......about these paper patch chambers being fine for hunting but not so good for the finest match accuracy. Several folks that have had their rifles altered to these long throats-leads now have issues with verticle, they were suckered in my opinion, the leading proponent for these chambers busts rocks for testing, never posts any groups on paper. He is mainly concerned with buffalo era and hunting accuracy.

My tighter than normal Shiloh chamber of .480 at the mouth, has and continues too shoot very nice groups, and shoots well in match conditions. This is in my older Shiloh, my 25# Shiloh has a .482 chamber at the mouth, it shots well but it never has equalled the accuracy of the tighter chambered rifle. It is also a 1-16 twist vrs a 1-18 in the Older rifle. In 3 years it has not shot a score better than 91 at 800, while the older rifle has shot 96's on several occasions.
A very detailed diary has been kept on both rifles, in 13 I returned to the older LRE 18 twist rifle with the tighter chamber with the modern throat. I have been pleased with it's performance.

The bull barrel Shiloh, is a tighter bore my .446 bullet is a very tight fit with the thin Seth Cole Paper, the best accuracy has came with a .444 bullet and the seth cole paper.

So I have a heavy rifle with tight bore and larger std chamber 16 twist, vrs a Std LRE with tight chamber and standard bore. Neither rifle has a internet chamber-lead.

I also agree that ones brass needs to fit the chamber.

KW

[BrentD]

FWIW, my chambers are 0.475" at the case mouth with a 45 deg transition up to groove diameter and then a 3 deg per side taper to the top of the lands. 6 rifles have been chambered with that reamer for 5 different people. 4 of the rifles and 3 of the owners have won NRA BPTR or BPCR matches or both in the last 3 yrs. The brass is Starline shot as it comes out of the bag except for a light chamfer to the case mouth. No anneal, no trim. But the chamber was built for that brass specifically. After 4 yrs, I have trimmed and rechamfered the brass and annealed once. 3 of those rifles are 16 twist, and 3 are 18 twist both twists have won out to 1000 yds, but bullets must be appropriate for best results.

The #1 top dog of long range also uses 16 twist with his groove bullets. I'm convinced that they have a slight advantage.

[Lead pot]

Yes Charlie it should be bore not groove. My fingers and my mind sometimes have a communication problem :)

My .44's have a chamber neck of .464" with a 4 degree transition to a 1.5 degree lead. (4 degree/1-1/2 compound)
I have a reamer getting ground right now for a .45-90 project that will have a .475" neck diameter with a 3 degree transition to a 1.5 degree lead. (3 degree/1.5 compound)I will never go back to a smokeless jacketed bullet chamber again with any rifle I build again. That 45 degree started showing up during the transition of the cordite powder and gilded jacketed bullets. There is a reason the .22 rimfire chamber has never changed since it's birth. :)

[dave roelle]

Gentlemen:

Thanks again for the spirited discussion !!!!!!!!!!!!! the shift to chambers is certainly a part of how obturation within the case and its transition to travel down the barrel is dealt with-------lots of ideas here for sure.

Currently i don't plan any chamber changes---i will have a discussion with my smith---he has several original Sharps which we can investigate----they are 44/77 and 44/90

Finished the day with 3 alloys at10,11 and 12 Brinell-------hope to get casting underway
tomorrow.

Thanks again everyone

Dave

[dave roelle]

Gentlemen:

Shot a silhouette match yesterday with the 12Bn Money Bullet----74 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 Mr. Wasserburgers Napa rubber/fiber wad over powder------3/16 grease cookie----Milk Carton wad under the bullet------

I collected these

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN1056.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN1056.jpg.html)

The paper is Strathmore Tracing paper--measures 0.0017 thick------the bullet was sized to achieve a "thumb push fit" to the 0.450 barrel I.D------------dry wrapped



After getting tuned up (i'm badly out of practice) shot this pattern on pigs----surrounded the first 5 killed the last 5

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN1053.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN1053.jpg.html)

So when the shooter get his head out of his A&& things just might come together :)

Substituting a 3/16 cork wad for the grease cookie got this result :

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN1061.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN1061.jpg.html)

So Kurt --yes there are lots of things going on that affect obturation-----certainly the relative compressibility of the wad stack is critical.

I'll experiment with harder alloys as time permitts and report back.

Brent:

I fabricated bore pigs base on your design----they worked well, not to hard to push ---when pushed with a dry patch the barrel was in good shape for the next shot--------no dirt diggers----no "lost bullets"---------no "socked" patches from too wet a chamber--------no leading.

I'm, going to fabricate a "pig holder" to keep them hydrated "squeegee end up" to get a quicker pick up and more uniform wetness

Thanks for the idea and design---i had been working on something similar with two patches but the brush/squeegee works much better !!!!

I'm going to continue with this load and wiping protocol for a bit and get enough trigger time to give it a chance to work.

Thanks everyone for the insights and help.

Dave