Long range 45/70 boolit BC's

[Metroxfi]

I am trying to research and find a good boolit for long range silhouette in a 45/70 rolling block. I've seen many of what other guys are using but I have a few questions about a few lyman molds and I can't find any info on them. ive been looking in the lyman cast bullet handbook to compare BC's just for ideas. So here are my findings :


The lyman 457132 535gr postell seems to be the standard "go-to" long range bullet. Lyman lists it having a .402 BC, seems like a good design and is widely used.

the lyman 457658 is listed at 480gr and a BC of.372, it seems decent and it's a bit lighter Which means some more velocity which would help it carry pretty well. I can't find anyone who uses it though, how well does it work? Any pros/cons to it?

the Lyman 457671 is listed at 475gr with a gas check (I know, I don't need or really want a gas check) but... The kicker is that it has a listed BC of .477! It seems like it should be a typo, most other bullets in that weight range are in the .36-.39 range. Does anyone have any experience with this bullet, particularly in longer ranges? I emailed Lyman to verify the BC, they basically said "yup, those are the results we got from our testing".

If the 457671's BC is actually.477 I think that would be a great choice for distance. I'm just trying to put together some tables and see how each bullet performs. Does anyone have any real world experience with these? What do you think of them? Pros/cons, is one better than another, any other suggestions for 1,000yds+? These will be used with smokeless powders in a rolling block, nothing too crazy. Let me know what you think, thanks!

[fouronesix]

I can't speak to the other bullets you mentioned but have tried the 457671 both in it's GC form and as a flat/plain base with both smokeless and BP. I could not get any accuracy out of it. I know two other shooters who also tried with similar dismal results. Any bullet won't do much good at any range and at whatever BC if it's not accurate.

My only guess about the design is that the unsupported nose is too long for a non-bore riding design.

That's my experience, other's may vary.

[Metroxfi]

I agree, it could fly flat and far but if it doesn't go where you want it to it doesn't do much good. In the Lyman cast bullet handbook vol 4 it only lists data for the 457671 in the magnumized 45 rifles. Maybe the increase in velocity helps it stabilize. Thanks for the input!

[Don McDowell]

The postel is a good bullet.
What sort of "longrange" shooting are you planning on doing? If the bptr creedmoor nationals at the Whittington Center isn't on the agenda, I'ld suggest take a hard look at the Saeco 645 bullet it weighs 480 grs cast from 20-1 and shoots well to 1000 yds.

[Metroxfi]

The saeco 645 actually looks a lot like the Lyman 457658 with a small meplat instead of a needle point. That may be worth throwing in the mix. In terms of long range, I'm being drawn into the quigly style shoots by an older friend/co-worker who is trying to retire from that scene. I believe he said the buffalo at his club is 880yds but I'd like to be able to ring a gong at 1,000.

[Don McDowell]

The 645 will definetly get both those jobs done, and without the recoil of the heavier bullet.

[JimP.]

the US Army standard long range bullet in the 1880's was a 500 gr RN bullet. Lyman 457125 and the SAECO 883 duplicate the Army's 500 gr bullet. I shoot both, like them both. Cant go wrong with either. JimP.

[fouronesix]

I agree, it could fly flat and far but if it doesn't go where you want it to it doesn't do much good. In the Lyman cast bullet handbook vol 4 it only lists data for the 457671 in the magnumized 45 rifles. Maybe the increase in velocity helps it stabilize. Thanks for the input!

I don't think it is velocity/twist/RPM related. I think it is the long unsupported nose that slumps or collapses off axis upon acceleration. A harder alloy might help but that defeats some of the positive qualities of a softer alloy. The rifles I tried that bullet in easily stabilize longer/heavier bullets. Never tried it in a hard alloy in say a 458 Win Mag at much higher velocity. Did try it at my normal 10-11 BHN alloy in a 45-110 up to maybe 1400 fps. Didn't improve at all over shooting it in a 45-70 at 1150 fps. So who knows? Just my theory.

Oh almost forgot, a friend also tried that bullet in a Ruger #1, 45-120 cast with a fairly hard alloy- about Lyman #2. He said he did try pushing them up over 1600 fps and had equally dismal results. But that is second hand info, so can't really comment as to the possible "whys" much beyond that.

[Gunlaker]

If you are looking for a high BC bullet you might want to have a look at the Money bullet from Buffalo Arms. I shoot a 535gr Money, and based on my sight settings out to 500m, it matches the JBM ballistics predicted trajectory with a BC of about 0.5.

With that said, older style bullets can work very well. The Saeco bullets seem to shoot very well.

Chris.

[Metroxfi]

Thanks for the responses guys. Like I said I haven't committed to anything in particular, I'm just trying to put together some tables to compare the benefits of the 500gr+ bullets VS the slightly lighter with a bit more velocity. Cast bullets are just so tricky to know how to predict without getting out and pulling triggers. A BC of ~.5 is pretty enticing though...

[montana_charlie]

A BC of ~.5 is pretty enticing though...
The guy who started the Money bullet thing said the BC is .571 when the muzzle velocity is 1350 fps.

[Don McDowell]

A lot of the guesstimated bc numbers etc go right out the window when you hit the real world with variations in wind direction. The real important thing is to figure out what length of bullet is going to stay stable with the twist rate of the rifle when the conditions turn to ****. Things that won't even make a SMK bullet from a highpower rifle flinch will make a bpcr bullet puke it's guts out..

[Lex]

Are you using black powder or smokeless ?it will make a difference in what mold you need.I have the Lyman 480gr spit bullet and it shoots very well with smokeless but black the lube groves are too shallow and it fouled too fast .

[Metroxfi]

I Plan on using smokeless, the guy who's helping me uses IMR 4198 and a tuft of Dacron so I was going to try that or possibly reloader 7. When you say spit bullet do you mean the 457658?

[montana_charlie]

When you say spit bullet do you mean the 457658?
Lyman only has one 480 grainer, and it is called the Schmittzer bullet.
It was designed for Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette competition.

If you plan to shoot smokeless, you must not intend to shoot in NRA matches ... yes?

CM

[M-Tecs]

I have only played with the Schmittzer bullets a little but I never could get the same accuracy as Postells.

[Metroxfi]

Lyman list the 457658 as 480gr on their website and 500gr in the cast bullet handbook 4th ed so I wanted to be clear on what slug we were talking about. As for my choice of smokeless, I don't want to deal with the headache associated with loading and shooting with black. I'm sure there are some out there that think smokeless in the 45/70 is sac-religious, but that's what is the easiest to get ahold of and the easiest to handle. As far as the competition's rules, I honestly don't know who is even putting some of these shoot on. I know there are rules that prohibit the use of smokeless, if I can't compete then I can't compete. Yes I would like to be able to do some competitions but right now I'm more focused on learning to use this gun and use it well, if I have to use it for my own recreational purposes and not for competitions then oh well.

M-tecs, what aspects did you play with? What kinds of powder did you try? Just curious.

I was able to borrow a lyman 457677 but the alignment pins/holes are horribly slopped out and the mold is so misaligned it's just sickening. I'm not the biggest fan of having lube grooves outside of the case, lubed or not.

[Don McDowell]

Other than eliminating any chance of shooting in NRA sanctioned bpcr/bptr matches, there's nothing particularly wrong with smokeless. Gong matches allow it.
My point about loading the thing to blackpowder velocity is it will be much easier on cases, the gun and the shooter. Trapdoor level loads will be your friend.


Loading and shooting blackpowder isn't the bugaboo common internet wisdom (mostly purveyed by folks with little experience) would have you believe.

[M-Tecs]

M-tecs, what aspects did you play with? What kinds of powder did you try? Just curious.



It's been awhile but the rifle was a Browning 1885 BPCR in 45/70. I shot this rifle with both BP and smokeless with cast and jackets however I only shot the Schmittzer bullets with BP, BP duplex and AA5744. The best I could do with the Schmittzer bullets about 50% larger groups than the Postells. At the time the claim was most were not having great results with them so I gave up after limited testing.

[Lead Fred]

132919

I went with something a bit different, An adjustable paper patch mould. With no lube rings the BC is higher. With plain sides, more aerodynamic. I had it custom made to fit my Buffalo Classic, it will work in me Handi too. Maybe even in the lever, tho I care not to try, since I modified the throats of the single shots to except these.

[Toymaker]

I've only shot 1,000 yards once with my rolling block and it was just for fun, so my experience is limited. But what an experience. I cast the bullets with a Hoch 459 500 mold. Load was 23.5 grains of 4759. The target was the BPCR buffalo. Position was cross-sticks. I had a spotter who knew what he was doing. He gave me adjustments to make through three shots. The fourth hit center mass. The next 4 also hit the body of the buffalo. I switched to BP loads and hit the body 3 more times. At that point I looked over and told my spotter "I'm quitting while I'm ahead". I bought him lunch during which he said "A little more wind would have made it more interesting."