Waitng for some decent weather

[Don McDowell]

So I can test the new tankbuster bullet from the Brooks mould , in the 44-90 st. Also have a handful of the BACO .446 525 gr bullets ready to try in the 45-90..
Both cases are using 81 grs of OE 1.5 to good affect with grease groove bullets , so that's where I started with these.. Now about that spring time weather.[smilie=s:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/001_zps0927d027.jpg

[Gunlaker]

I know what you mean Don. Our weather has pretty much switched to spring mode, but the weather is always bad on range day. I'm trying to get some quality time with the chronograph for my .45-90.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

It's been crazy so far. Be cold windy snowy miserable, then a couple pretty nice days, sometimes almost getting to the 70', then bam right back in the dumper... Getting some casting done, and would like to run these patched bullets again, but I'ld really like to test before I put much more alloy into them.

[Gunlaker]

It's been a very strange year for weather up here. My relatives back east are freezing in -30 degree weather, while we never had a winter on the west coast. Except for lots of torrential rain storm for days on end. The weather has dried up, but on my range days the rain generally returns. I just need a few more chrony sessions to get this rifle sorted out. I can't complain though. A couple of weeks ago I went to the cabin to do some casting ( I usually start in April due to snow ) and didn't even need to put on show shoes.Don, in your picture, on the second set of bullets from the left, those patches look a lot shorter than the others. How far from the ogive are you patching those? Chris.

[country gent]

While snow hasnt been an issue here till this month its been a cold winter and that isnt conductive to testing or practice. For the past couple months Ive been getting things ready and dry firing here in the house to stay up to par.

[Don McDowell]

Chris I'm trying 2 different lengths of patches. 3/4 and 7/8 inch. It's shown up on target that the shorter patches will most often take a couple of minutes less elevation at 800 yds and beyond. If they'll shoot accurately enough it can make a big difference in the long range stuff, especially when you get into the wind conditions that places like Byers and Raton throw at you.

[Don McDowell]

CG , yup it's not been a good powder burning winter that's for sure.

[country gent]

Ive been watching myself alot closer in this cold as with the numbess in my legs and arms I dont know when Im getting cold till it that throbing painfull cold. Then is 304 hours to warm back up. I havent done much since december or so do to this.

[Don McDowell]

Yes MS requires attention to detail that those of us that don't have it don't.

[country gent]

Well Don it could be alot worse also, I am still getting around and doing what I want. Just not always the same way I did before. Working around hot and cold requires attention to details more so than before. On the plus side I could have constant pain instead of the numbness. Recoil is near as big an issue now. And I can turn bacon with out a spatula.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

It is kind of funny, when it was brought forth on the Shiloh forum to use a much shorter patch it was decried as herasy by some. I put forth my own findings on this and from my testing with a harder alloy a shorter patch controlled bullet nose set back or slump some call it. My findings on recovered bullets bump up to to top of the patch with harder alloys, and no further thus preserving the nose profile a bit better, less set back? Later on I found that this was the Hyde method of patching, shorter in width, applied wet or damp paper. I have tested this from 200 yards to 1 mile, the shorter patch bullet requires about 5 MOA less elevation than the taller patched round, conditions at one mile showed as much at a 12MOA difference to as little as 3 MOA, some of that is in part due to the conditions each day these tests were fired. Still it is most thought provoking. It has convinced me enough that it use it for my competition shooting.
KW

[montana_charlie]

I put forth my own findings on this and from my testing with a harder alloy a shorter patch controlled bullet nose set back or slump some call it. My findings on recovered bullets bump up to to top of the patch with harder alloys, and no further thus preserving the nose profile a bit better, less set back?
Would this one illustrate your concept of bumping up to the leading edge of the patch ... and no further?
If it does not, please post some images of the bullets you recovered which show the effect.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/March2012.jpg

CM

[Don McDowell]

County Gent, I used your suggestion on shortening the handle on the new Lyman ladels, Worked like a champ! Thanks a bunch for the suggestion.
Kenny it doesn't seem like it would make any difference , the width of the patch, but danged if it doesn't. Funny how all this information that has just been sitting there waiting to be "found" was lost for nearly a century.. Big tip of the hat to you guys that find it and share it with the rest of us.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Indeed it is Don, when DanT first mentioned this, we had via personal correspondence were sharing findings Also with Jimbo, on the phone as Jimbo does not do email well. Then a short time later while doing research I found the 1888 article in my collection of shooting and Fishing books from Brother Garbe, the one on Hyde Method Of wet and short patching, and it's use in the last years of Creedmoor, then my finding of the long lost Book of Perry's, that in my opinion was a huge break through for us modern Day PP shooters.

KW

[Don McDowell]

Yes I believe the last 3-4 years, have advanced modern paper patch shooting by leaps and bounds. I'm also of the opinion that with the number of folks in pursuit of these dark arts, that it won't be long until one or more of them breaks that barrier and brings home the grand prize.. Have it on good word that one of the shooters who's name appears on the Castle Trophy has been working on a patched bullet gun..

[montana_charlie]

If it does not, please post some images of the bullets you recovered which show the effect.
Well then, KW, if you don't have any recovered bullets to illustrate your claim, how about commenting on these two aspects of patching.

Below is a group of five recovered bullets that show two problems.
1) The patches do not all come to the same point on the ogive, so there is steel to lead contact on those which were 'short patched'.
- Do you see this as a critical defect?

2) Several of the impressions show that the two wraps of a patch were not even at the leading edge, causing (what DM calls) a 'double tap' at the top of the engraving.
- How important do you think this is?


http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/Joes%205_zpsdj4s8zza.png


I am certain that anyone reading has wondered about these ...

CM

[Keith Andersen]

CM

Looking at those bullets I would say you have your patch where you need it plus so is your bullet alloy. You might comment what the alloy is your using.
I have seen recovered bullets that Lead pot has posted working with the alloy blends and patch placement, but I read that he quit posting so I hope you keep posting your stuff. It is very helpful for the new PP shooters.
As far as the short patch. I been shooting paper patched bullets for a long time. The only thing I have ever found that effects accuracy using a PP bullet and that is if the paper has some sticking additive added like milk, egg white, anything that holds the tag of the patch. Wet patching I found a problem that holds the patch longer from clearing the bullet. Even found paper stuck on the target backer from wet patching. I used to think wet patching was the way to go but gave it up 20 some years back.
A short patch I have not found better then a patch patched to the end of the shank where the ogive starts or a 1/16" up front of the shank to allow for setback to keep the dry lead off the lands or the cutting edge of the grooves. This will effect the accuracy after a few shots fired if the lead sticks. I know some say I don't get lead. They don't look to close to their patches when they clean the rifle.
Keep up your posting your findings CM it helps the new starters.

[Don McDowell]

Keith, I gather you did not see a difference in the elevation requirements between the shorter patch and the longer patch? I have found much the same as Kenny that the shorter patch will shoot to the same point at 1000 yds with less elevation on the staff than the longer patch widths. I have not found much if any difference in the accuracy but that little bit of elevation difference seems to jump right out.

[montana_charlie]

CM

Looking at those bullets I would say you have your patch where you need it plus so is your bullet alloy. You might comment what the alloy is your using.
Well, they aren't my bullets. They were sent to me already (wet) patched, and I just slipped them into some of my cases for the test firing.
I'm pretty sure Joe used 20-1 to make them, and we discussed the patch positioning and 'double tapping' to see if our opinions differed on the subjects.
I posted that picture because I don't have a grouping of mine, so nothing to show a variation in patch placement on a given batch of recovered bullets.

This image is the one (of my stuff) that I would use to illustrate 'too short' patch positioning when compared to doing it right.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/SnowbankPairHilite.jpg

It was not saved to illustrate that particular aspect, but it does that pretty well.
The only thing is, everytime I use it in a discussion, ol' McDowell schools me on the 'double tap'.


I have seen recovered bullets that Lead pot has posted working with the alloy blends and patch placement, but I read that he quit posting so I hope you keep posting your stuff. It is very helpful for the new PP shooters.
Kurt has posted a pile of recovered bullets in the past. He shoots a lot of different rifles, different loads, and different alloys, so he does a lot of testing.
He hasn't totally stopped posting, but he lost a lot of his saved images in a computer crash, and (apparently) some of the 'experts' have dragged him over the coals for some of his ideas and findings.
He is less willing to stick his neck out these days, but he will join a conversation if it's interesting to him and the participants stay civil.



As far as the short patch. I been shooting paper patched bullets for a long time. The only thing I have ever found that effects accuracy using a PP bullet and that is if the paper has some sticking additive added like milk, egg white, anything that holds the tag of the patch. Wet patching I found a problem that holds the patch longer from clearing the bullet. Even found paper stuck on the target backer from wet patching. I used to think wet patching was the way to go but gave it up 20 some years back.

The bullet on the right (above) was patched dry, and this one was patched wet. The 'scummy' look of the wet one makes me think it wouldn't be hard to get a problem with paper hanging onto the bullet for an extra spin, or two.
The dry one clearly shows no adherence of any kind.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/March2012.jpg

I have several other snowbankers that show the 'scum' and every one was wet patched ... including the four in that batch from Joe in the earlier post.


A short patch I have not found better then a patch patched to the end of the shank where the ogive starts or a 1/16" up front of the shank to allow for setback to keep the dry lead off the lands or the cutting edge of the grooves.

Wasserburger's contention is that short patches work better on harder bullets. I'm not clear on whether McDowell noticed that part, or not ...
As you know, some information about alloy performance can be ascertained by examining a fired bullet. KW doesn't say how hard the alloy should be, and doesn't provide pictures which show how the bullet fared on it's trip through the barrel.
So, we are left (as usual) with the notion that the validity of the theory is proven by 'what the target tells him'.


Yeah, I'll keep sharing bullet pictures, Keith, whenever I get something that helps me answer a question. I am using a harder alloy this year (too) but there has not been a good snowbank for catching any.
So, with nothing new to show ... I am making no new claims.

CM

[Don McDowell]

The only thing is, everytime I use it in a discussion, ol' McDowell schools me on the 'double tap'.
I guess at this point I need to ask the question *** are you talking about? Why would I be schooling you on pulling the trigger twice and putting two slugs into the intended target when talking about paper patching?

[Don McDowell]

Wasserburger's contention is that short patches work better on harder bullets. I'm not clear on whether McDowell noticed that part, or not ...

Not only noticed it but Kenny and I have had many conversation in person, on the phone and via email on variety of things we have noticed in the pursuit of the paper patch accuracy loads.
I use 16-1 quite often with the target patched ammo.
The part that seems to slip right past some folks is when shooting the shorter patch and the "hyde" base wrap it takes a few minutes less elevation than does the longer patch particularly at long range distances. It does show up some at midrange/sillouette but not as pronounced as from the long lines.

[montana_charlie]

I guess at this point I need to ask the question *** are you talking about? Why would I be schooling you on pulling the trigger twice and putting two slugs into the intended target when talking about paper patching?
Well, those are your words, McDowell, so you can supply your own explanation of why you used them for a paper patching discussion.

The exchange went this way ...


Would you point out that deformation on these two patched-to-groove bullets fired in 2012 and 2013 so that the newbies can understand what you are talking about?

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/Comparison_zpsab91c485.jpg
You mean other than the obvious imprint of the paper grain into the bullet and the double tap at the leading edge of the engraving on the rifling?


No, the 'double tap' is a function of not aligning the patch wraps correctly, not of being patched to groove diameter.
And, the paper grain impression ... how do you know it isn't on your bullets, too?


Why do you consider that 'texture' to be 'deformation'?

I don't consider it to be a problem of any kind and Kurt seems to agree with me ... if his opinion matters.
When he first saw one, he thought it had been breech seated.


Now, could you tell me again how that 'deformation' works?

CM

You can find the rest of that in this thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?257253-The-Help-for-my-Gibbs-Has-Helped!!!!&p=3049774&viewfull=1#post3049774 .

I used a green color to highlight your use of the term in question. I hope you can see it well enough to find the green asterisks that identify your 'double taps' in this image of six out of sixteen patches suffering from that problem ... and suffering from the fact that no two of them are patched to the same point on the ogive.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/DoubleTaps_zpsldybhfac.png

You'd think that a guy who shoots well enough to take fourth place could wrap paper better than that ...

[Don McDowell]

OH I see.. The double tap I was speaking of in your poor tortured bullets in particular the left bullet the double imprint of the rifling on just one land ...
I'm not quite sure what you're pointing out in my picture, but you do need to know that the pencil lines on some of those patches are visible, if that's what you're calling "double tap"? Also on those original bullets you do need to realize that on account of the larger diameter base and smaller nose diameter, you either end up with a bit of unevenness of the paper on top, or around the base. I prefer it to be on the top of the patch. Of course it takes hands on experience with some things to know about them I suppose....

[Don McDowell]

taps' in this image of six out of sixteen patches suffering from that problem ... and suffering from the fact that no two of them are patched to the same point on the ogive.

And just for the sake of accuracy, there's 26 of the 44's and 20 of the 90's, and yes as I stated way early on, there are a couple of different patch heights for each bullet....Also two seating depths on the 44's but I really wasn't wanting to confuse any ol widder women...

[Kenny Wasserburger]

As Don mentioned, I too am using 16-1 alloy, in my PP Loads. My shorter patched bullets show rifling to stop right at the top of the patch. I am here in Lusk not my home due to a serious accident I was in, last November. I can not do the many stairs in my own home, so doing my recovery and PT here in Lusk, under the care of my Girl Friend. I do not have any bullets to show here.

I have MC on block or ignore, so can't read his posts nor will I. I have no desire to hold any further discourse with a someone that admits he is posting to make trouble for me. Do not need that in my life right now.

On a side note::bigsmyl2: I took my first steps with weight on my shattered leg since Nov 13th. Yesterday in Gillette in surgery while Steph's daughter was getting ready for wrist surgery, my X-rays show a lot of new Bone Growth around my new titanium rods and screws.

Don and I are close friends, we have encouraged him, and shared everything we have been finding with him, as he has with us. His findings using felt wads mirrored Jimbo's results which now we are all using, his results with Olde Eynsford were what prompted me to try it. After several watermark tests one in the crucible known as Ben Avery at 800-900-1000 yards under the eye of Steve Rhoades, and several accuracy tests at Gillette Gun Club, I and Jimbo ordered 3 more cases of the stuff.

KW

[country gent]

I find these discussions informative and educational. I work with paper patched bullets occasionally and will start again when the weather warms some. Don Kenny and others here have been of great help to me. Mr. Wasserburger a speedy and full recovery to you . Im truly sorry to hear ot the accident. I am patching with the seth cole paper dry no taul just a covered base. My patches are 3/4" wide and come just short of the ogive on the brooks cup based bullet I cast. I made a little form in my patching borad with epoxy that matches the cup base on my bullet. I wrap dry fold patch over drop into pocket and a couple twist the base fold is ironed into the cup and nice and flat. BUllets sit on base square with no rock to them. My patch board set ptch square with a rail and bullet position from nose. I used 2 3/8 dowels on 7/16 center line ( this leaves 1/16" between dowels) instead of the saw cut and sharp edges. My bullets wrap up tight and consistent for me. The little pocket seems to really help tension the patch to the bullet.

[Don McDowell]

Kenny it was grand to see that video Shatto posted of you walking down the hall at the Dr's office with the assistance of the walker.
I feel bad that it seems next to impossible at times to have a good conversation on these forums. I do wonder at the comments of recent about how the "top shooters" stir up the trouble. Matter of fact I haven't seen any "top shooters" stir up much trouble. I have seen a top poster here and other places start throwing little digs and jabs around until he starts to get attention.
I also feel bad about the blowup between Kurt and Kenny, and I'm positive had that conversation taken place in person both men would be laughing and sharing a beer. Both men I hold their friendship and guidance in quite high esteem. I do think the sort of **** we've seen just in this thread from a fella with a ton of posts but very little shooting experience goes along way to explain why there isn't an whole lot of activity on the forums. It's a bunch easier to have civil discussions over the phone or via email.
We all have things to share and learn, but it gets lost in the fog sometimes and that's a sad deal. Blowing up someone's photograph , putting tiny little green astricks on something that isn't there, isn't contributing anything to a meaningful conversation, but it does add to his post count, and reputation .

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Thanks a bunch Don it was a emotional and painful day yesterday but a grand one. Country Gent it sounds like you have a great set up with your patching board, keep at it.

My own reasons for wet-damp patching is the historical references I have found in my reasearch, It is mentioned by Phil Sharpe in his books, again in a old Ideal# 3 loading manual even down to the the bullet nose pointed to the right. My forest and Stream research, and the of course the Borchardt patching machine used a wet patch. As I do not have my books here it was either Sharpe or the ideal manual mentions wetting the patch on a damp sponge.

i have shot to many ragged hole targets at 200 yards, not 50 or a 100 but 200. To convince me of the accuracy, many people comment on the patch being shredded totally at the muzzle with this patching method. Perry makes mention of the vertical displayed on Hyde's targets saying it all, speaking volumes as he says. Mike Rix has mentioned my vertical several times in actual match conditions.

KW

[Don McDowell]

Veticle is the great score killer, and it can be a tough monster to over come..

[Gunlaker]

When you guys are short patching, how short are you going?

Most of my testing is unfortunately at 200m and you can have a fair bit of velocity variation and still get excellent vertical. I've learned a pile from you guys and others and am reasonably happy with my rifles performance at 200m, as well as 500m and 800m which is the furthest I've been able to shoot thus far.

With the stuff I've picked up here and elsewhere I've avoided the problems of too thick paper and dirt diggers as well as other problems. Advice from all of you guys has probably saved me a lot of testing time going down unproductive paths. Mind you, you guys have also cost me a pile in rifles as I hadn't really heard much about paper patching until I started reading the forums.

There is a lot of noise and sometimes conflicting advice, but I watch what the winners are up to :-)

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris the second row of 45-90's is patched with a 3/4 inch wide patch, the first row is with 7/8 wide. The patch is folded over the base maybe 1/10 of an inch.

It's funny sometimes, but you can have a bullet that will shoot lights out from 2-600 yds and then go to pot at 800. Conversely I've had two bullets in the 44-77 that shot grand to 800 got dicey at 900 and didn't get anybetter at 1000. I had a bullet that was spectacular at 1000 until the wind came up.. then I just as well been throwin rocks, and the worst part is , lots of times a person doesn't stumble into that sort of learning curve until you're done with sighters and 4 shots into score...

[Gunlaker]

Thanks Don. I've been using patches 0.875" long for the most part on my BACO .444" 540gr and .446" 535gr bullets. The .444" is the longer bullet and also has a longer shank so my patches are a bit shorter on that one. I have around the same amount of patch on the base as you.

You are right, there is no substitute for experience :-). I'm pretty sure that the .45 Money bullets are good at distance, at least as far as I've managed to shoot them. It also doesn't hurt that others are using them with success and I have similar muzzle velocities and alloys.

A while back I was uncertain about the 1.51" Money in my 1-18 twist .45-110 at 1360fps, but Kenny said they should be fine. They seem to work quite well at 800m, although I can't prove that they are stable as they have just been shot at gongs. This year it'll be paper, but with the new .45-90 using Dan's chamber design.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris when shooting at gongs you can get an idea right quick if your having bullet stabilization problems, if you're getting bullet strikes way high and to one side or the other without any noticeable change in conditions. Also an unexplained dirt digger indicates the bullet loosing stability. Many folks think of a bullet being unstable and keyholing. Keyholing comes well after the bullet has lost stabilitiy. I've been able to see unstable bullets thru the spotting scope in flight and it looks like they are riding a circular staircase. Think of a top spinning and before it falls over (keyholing) it starts to wander around ( loosing stability).
Sure hope to see you at one of the matches this season.

[45bpcr]

Damm, I've been all excited to see temps above 20°. We still have at least 2.5 feet of snow on the ground.

Craig

[Don McDowell]

Yessir I suspect you guys have had your fill of global warming this winter..

[Don McDowell]

Finally got things together to get those rounds fired...Both bullets show some promise, a bit of tweeking here and there and they'll be fine.
First up was the CPA at 800 yds with the Baco .446 money bullet. Used a few more than I would of liked to get the elevation, but had to come down about 15 minutes from the grease groove bullet settings, the winds were a bit twitchy coming from the front quarter. But there some promise showing here.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/003_zps9dh5e4fh.jpg

[Don McDowell]

Next up was the 44-90 st at 600. Again there's a bit of promise being shown here, but the big disappointment is this new tank buster bullet wouldn't shoot dirty as I had hoped. There is a pretty fair group in a railroad tie under the target that we didn't see until later.
All in all a decent mornings shooting.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/008_zpsbnwvurqn.jpg

[45bpcr]

Saltner got me all excited with his Gibbs rifle posts.
So I cast up a few bullets using my BACO .438 Money bullet mold and patched them.134725

Figured I'd head up to my range and try some on the 500 yard ram swinger.
Found this when I got there. I just wasn't in the mood to lay prone on icy cement and try to shoot over snow mountains.134728
And, quite frankly, I've been digging through enough snow this winter so I'm NOT in the mood to drill the snow banks and dig out the bullets to see what they look like.
There's a reason I love living in NH but I can't remember why right now :-)

C

[Don McDowell]

Well Craig those are darn fine looking bullets.