Called Lee with a very simple question.

[websterz]

They either think I'm an idiot or the guy I talked to IS one. I suspect both. All I wanted to know is what taper their bullet sizing dies are cut to. Easy question and hardly a trade secret. He informed me that they make the dies by "pushing a carbide ball through them." So I asked how they achieved a taper by pushing a rigid sphere through a die body blank. His reply was "I don't know but that is information we don't give out." Apparently the wizard that they hired to violate the laws of physics holds his spell book very close to his chest. Sheesh!! Guess I'll have to just do the math myself. And start buying someone else's dies.

[Omega]

I am guessing I don't understand the question either, isn't the bullet sizing die one diameter all the way through? Unless you are talking about a case sizing die.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I don't think the Lee Bullet Sizing Dies or anyone else's have a tapered hole in them. There may be a small amount of taper or more properly a chamfer at the entrance to guide the boolit in,(a lead) but once in the hole it is strait all the way thru as is virtually every other bullet sizing die I know of.

About the most any boolit sizing die is going to alter the diameter of a boolit is maybe .003 at the extreme. .001-.002 is more the normal amount you would size a boolit. With so little alteration being done, the need for a tapered hole wouldn't exist. If it were tapered it would be so slight (.001-2 over an inch?) it wouldn't really be measureable by conventional methods, and the only other ways to achieve it would be to single point bore the hole, or use a reamer that had been specially ground and then hone the hole to achieve the finish.

Honing a tapered hole to a specific size and taper is no easy trick to accomplish repeatedly. All of that would take way too much time, and the tool's cost would be much higher.

The reason why they use a ball to size the hole is to "burnish" the hole and produce a very high surface finish.

Burnishing the hole would generate a superior finish to honing anyway and can be accomplished in seconds per part. This is exactly what would be generated if you pushed a ball thru a hole.

The fact that this guy didn't know how they do this operation is not unusual as I know many highly skilled machinists that don't know anything about burnishing either.

Besides,,, if they really did have some magic way of doing this do you actually think they would tell you what it is? There are such things as "Trade Secrets," and many of those secrets are why Lee tools cost less than other brands. Those guys are some of the best Toolmakers I have seen, and I am a Toolmaker myself!

I have people that call me from time to time to ask what the sizes of the bolts I use in my Seat Riser Kits for Jeeps. Usually it is so that they can "knock me off!" (If you go on Ebay you can seen how many are currently knocking me off.) Sometimes I just don't answer, sometimes I give them a Ration of Ship for wanting to knock me off, and sometimes I tell them to buy a kit and measure the bolts themselves.

To avoid telling them the sizes (which are not very hard to figure out in the first place,) I usually just send them another bolt kit free.

Randy

[MT Chambers]

This all may explain why those dies are usually out of spec when purchased.

[websterz]

Oh there is definitely a taper. In the .339" die I'm working on the sizing section of the die tapers from .353" to .339" over a distance of .700". That doesn't happen by pushing a carbide ball through it.

[ReloaderFred]

Yes, there is a taper in a Lee bullet sizing die. Yesterday I was pushing .431" diameter bullets through one of their .427" dies so I could size and lube them in a Saeco sizer with SPG for blackpowder. There is a definite lead in to the sizing portion of the push through die. The bullets came out of the Lee die at .427", and went into the Saeco .427" die perfectly, without any leakage from the soft lube.

I had to do this because the Saeco doesn't have enough leverage for one thing, and their dies don't have enough lead in to allow the bullet to size, but rather shaves lead. And yes, it was a Saeco mold designed for the .44-40 bullet, but drops them at .44 Magnum diameter, .431".

I didn't bother to do any measuring, since I was happy it worked and I had 1,000 bullets to work through........

Hope this helps.

Fred

[FLHTC]

My 358 die is a 1.2% taper. If that helps

[imashooter2]

Not many companies are willing to give away their proprietary information for the price of a phone call. It isn't a huge R&D cost to buy their product and reverse engineer it.

[websterz]

I wasn't exactly asking for their secret blend of eleven herbs and spices.

[websterz]

My 358 die is a 1.2% taper. If that helps

Indeed it is. That confirms my math was correct. Thank you!

[Geezer in NH]

I hope you really don't expect a phone answerer to know totally what you are asking.

Life is to short to ask the CS reps to know.

[Geezer in NH]

My 358 die is a 1.2% taper. If that helps

Sorry but what does that really mean anything to most. 1 1/2 or 2 Duh I am just an old school guy who uses if it shoots good or not.

The internet has to many "engineers IMHO types that kind of info answer the makers proprietary info without any cause to actual shooting accuracy.

Sorry if this reads to you but this answer system on the site is diff from what I am used to.

[DougGuy]

The actual sizer ring in a Lee sizing die is really narrow, like .010" or so, and there is a taper leading up to that part and another one afterwards. He is probably correct in telling you they arrive at the size of the die by shoving a carbide ball through the sizing ring to set it's final diameter.

[big bore 99]

The actual sizer ring in a Lee sizing die is really narrow, like .010" or so, and there is a taper leading up to that part and another one afterwards. He is probably correct in telling you they arrive at the size of the die by shoving a carbide ball through the sizing ring to set it's final diameter.
That is exactly right. Retired toolmaker here and made plenty wire draw dies. There is a lead going in and a very narrow land and then a back taper relief. They just push the carbide ball thru the narrow land.

[websterz]

I hope you really don't expect a phone answerer to know totally what you are asking.

Life is to short to ask the CS reps to know.

I know better than to ask a CS rep such a question. I asked to be transferred to the die shop where I figured the folks that know are usually found.

[EDG]

The customer service person may sit 100 feet from the production floor but it might as well be on the back side of the moon.
Other than the operators, the supervisor and a few engineers no one knows squat about what happens in the manufacturing processes.

[FLHTC]

Sorry but what does that really mean anything to most. 1 1/2 or 2 Duh I am just an old school guy who uses if it shoots good or not.

The internet has to many "engineers IMHO types that kind of info answer the makers proprietary info without any cause to actual shooting accuracy.

Sorry if this reads to you but this answer system on the site is diff from what I am used to.

It was an answer to the original post. But as a side note, I'm not sure what any of the above means so please explain.

[maxreloader]

I hope you really don't expect a phone answerer to know totally what you are asking.

Life is to short to ask the CS reps to know.

Thank you Geezer for an actual lol!

[geargnasher]

Reminds me of the only time I ever called Lee. It was to ask about a Classic Turret press where they didn't machine the slot for the shellholder deeply enough and the shellholder wouldn't slide all the way to the center of the ram and thus align with the hole in the turret. We went around for probably ten minutes with him trying to explain to me over and over again how to adjust the nut on the auto-index rod to "time" the die plate with the ram. Finally I was like "Look, all I need you to do is put a new ram top piece, that IS machined correctly, in the mail to me, and I'll leave you alone". He said "You need to send in the press, and we'll have a look at it". I replied "Send me a call tag" and he refused. So I hung up, took my Dremel tool and fixed the thing myself in less time than I wasted on the phone.

Gear

[EDG]

I have never seen taper defined on an engineering drawing as a % of anything.
It is normally defined as included angle, taper per inch in thousandths, a taper in rise over run - as in 10 to 1 but never as percentage.
You can reference ASME Y14.5M for the US standard for dimensioning and tolerancing drawings.

[dikman]

gg, that person must still be working there, sounds like the sort of run-around I got when I contacted them [smilie=b:.

[FLHTC]

I have never seen taper defined on an engineering drawing as a % of anything.
It is normally defined as included angle, taper per inch in thousandths, a taper in rise over run - as in 10 to 1 but never as percentage.
You can reference ASME Y14.5M for the US standard for dimensioning and tolerancing drawings.

I made it all up.

[btroj]

There is a taper there. Having made a few Lee push thru type sizers I can tell you this- without that taper you need a bigger press. Pushing our little lead slug thru a non tapered sizer 2.5 inches long just isn't that easy. Learned that the hard way. Think of this, after pushing a bullet thru the sizing section the force required is greatly reduced. That is because the bullet has entered a larger section and is no longer being squeezed.
I make mine with some leade in taper but actually bore the back side out much larger. The leade in taper just needs to get the bullet started and centered. I like a larger initially taper than Lee uses as it makes seating checks easier, particularly if the check has been flattered at all.
Like others stated, the actual sizing section isn't that long, maybe 1/2 inch if that long.

[FLHTC]

There is a taper there. Having made a few Lee push thru type sizers I can tell you this- without that taper you need a bigger press. Pushing our little lead slug thru a non tapered sizer 2.5 inches long just isn't that easy. Learned that the hard way. Think of this, after pushing a bullet thru the sizing section the force required is greatly reduced. That is because the bullet has entered a larger section and is no longer being squeezed.
I make mine with some leade in taper but actually bore the back side out much larger. The leade in taper just needs to get the bullet started and centered. I like a larger initially taper than Lee uses as it makes seating checks easier, particularly if the check has been flattered at all.
Like others stated, the actual sizing section isn't that long, maybe 1/2 inch if that long.

Actually according to my measurement, it's .780 long, with a front opening of .367 and a finish diameter of .358. The length of the sizing area are all the same on my Lee size dies.

[btroj]

Thanks. I have never really measure the length but know it isn't the entire die length.

This short sizing section is good for us. It is the reason we can easily lap a Lee sizer to a larger diameter. If we needed to lap the entire length it would be far more difficult.

[EDG]

Without a taper you wind up with a shoulder with a corner radius for a lead in. All that will do is shave the bullet.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

They either think I'm an idiot or the guy I talked to IS one. I suspect both. All I wanted to know is what taper their bullet sizing dies are cut to. Easy question and hardly a trade secret. He informed me that they make the dies by "pushing a carbide ball through them." So I asked how they achieved a taper by pushing a rigid sphere through a die body blank. His reply was "I don't know but that is information we don't give out." Apparently the wizard that they hired to violate the laws of physics holds his spell book very close to his chest. Sheesh!! Guess I'll have to just do the math myself. And start buying someone else's dies.

I would have just measured a Lee die.

[websterz]

With all the money I've handed them I didn't think it would be a big deal to ask. I guess I know better now. Oh well, the die is almost done, I just need to polish it.

[MBTcustom]

The Lee die has a sizing section .800 long, with a punch that is .850 long IIRC. The taper is such that it typically allows a bullet of .015 larger diameter to enter the sizing taper of the die.
The actual taper goes nearly the entire length of the .800 long sizing portion, with less than .100 parallel cylinder bore.
The entire length of the die is relieved often .015 or whatever drill size is closest to provide clearance for the bullets as they travel up the body of the die and into the container.
The rate of taper is not important. Usually, I taper mine from .005 larger than the bullets intended for it to a depth of .750, leaving me a parallel wiping length of .050.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, there is a taper in a Lee bullet sizing die. Yesterday I was pushing .431" diameter bullets through one of their .427" dies so I could size and lube them in a Saeco sizer with SPG for blackpowder. There is a definite lead in to the sizing portion of the push through die. The bullets came out of the Lee die at .427", and went into the Saeco .427" die perfectly, without any leakage from the soft lube.

I had to do this because the Saeco doesn't have enough leverage for one thing, and their dies don't have enough lead in to allow the bullet to size, but rather shaves lead. And yes, it was a Saeco mold designed for the .44-40 bullet, but drops them at .44 Magnum diameter, .431".

I didn't bother to do any measuring, since I was happy it worked and I had 1,000 bullets to work through........

Hope this helps.

Fred

Just guessing, but just because they are those sizes at the ends, doesn't mean that it is necessarily a taper. On hearing of the carbide ball, I thought "series of balls", rather like Parker-Hale used with ball burnished barrels (although I think they used hardened steel balls, and the value was somewhat reduced because it didn't affect the grooves.) It is possible that after pushing a graduated series of balls through, they then push larger ones half an inch to so from the lower end, and then push them back out again, producing a stepped rather than tapered bore.

[upnorthwis]

Here's my experience as a Process Engineer for 42 years. Supervisors don't know anything either. Only the operators and engineers know what's going on.

[mdi]

Seems the thread has jumped from bullet sizing dies to case sizing dies.:razz: Any kind of die that swages anything down in diameter has to have an "entry taper". The bullet needs a taper to start in the hole, just like a case mouth needs to be flared for a lead bullet to be seated. Basic metal forming 101...

[FLHTC]

Seems the thread has jumped from bullet sizing dies to case sizing dies.:razz: Any kind of die that swages anything down in diameter has to have an "entry taper". The bullet needs a taper to start in the hole, just like a case mouth needs to be flared for a lead bullet to be seated. Basic metal forming 101...

Where????

[mdi]

Where????
Around post 13...

[FLHTC]

If you say so

[Springfield]

FLHTC; Right here. Pretty sure bullet sizing dies don't have a sizing ring, only brass sizers.

"The actual sizer ring in a Lee sizing die is really narrow, like .010" or so, and there is a taper leading up to that part and another one afterwards. He is probably correct in telling you they arrive at the size of the die by shoving a carbide ball through the sizing ring to set it's final diameter."

[Avery Arms]

Not many companies are willing to give away their proprietary information for the price of a phone call. It isn't a huge R&D cost to buy their product and reverse engineer it.

LOL I don't think Lee has a lot of proprietary information regarding manufacturing a piece of steel with a hole in the middle of it, for one thing they can rarely get the hole the right size and the finish looks like they are using discarded drill bits as finish reamers.

[therealhitman]

I wasn't exactly asking for their secret blend of eleven herbs and spices.

Blimey! Made me spit coffee on me laptop!

[gwpercle]

And just why in the world do we need to know the Lee taper ?

[imashooter2]

LOL I don't think Lee has a lot of proprietary information regarding manufacturing a piece of steel with a hole in the middle of it, for one thing they can rarely get the hole the right size and the finish looks like they are using discarded drill bits as finish reamers.

Evidently they have enough that the OP was asking for it. You don't think Lee has an engineering design, drawing/model and associated cost in every product they make? Why would you expect them to give that away?

[imashooter2]

And just why in the world do we need to know the Lee taper ?

The assumed reason is so that you can make your own without any R&D costs. Which would be why they won't give the information away.