Problems with belted magnums

[jednorris]

I have been reloading for many years but have encountered a problem that I cannot find an answer to. I reload for 7mm Mag., .300 Win. Mag. .300 Weatherby Mag. and .270 Short Mag. and have a problem with chambering after about two reloads. I full length resize with appropriate shell holder in a set of R.C.B.S. dies. I have checked the O.A.L. as well as the demensions of all exterior measurements and they appear dead on. The thickness and diameter of the belt is fine and I can find no reason that it is hard to chamber. I thought I might try small base dies, but R.C.B.S. says they are not reccomended for bolt action rifles. Any Ideas

[C. Latch]

Measure just in front of the belt. There's a little sliver of the case that's hard for regular dies to resize; a guy named Larry Willis (?) sells a collet die that is designed to fix this problem. I've never used one but it's on my list of stuff to get soon.

[TheDoctor]

If you full length size them, be sure to keep a close eye for pending case head separation. I love my 7 mags, but love nothing about the belted ones.

[Themoose]

Try this link... It is a collet die meant for properly sizing belted magnums correctly... I have one and it works great.

http://www.larrywillis.com/answers.html I used to shoot a .264 Win Mag and had problems chambering rounds until I got this die...

Hope this helps

[Hardcast416taylor]

I have an Interarms Mark X Mauser rifle in 7 Rem. Mag. After 2 loadings I was having chambering problems even though I full length resized. I was keeping the cases trimmed to correct length, but still was having problems. I bought a neck size only die from RCBS and my problems ceased! I have a large enough supply of brass for my lifetime of use to not worry about a case being loaded that was not fired in my rifle.Robert

[Iron Whittler]

The area just ahead of the belt is expanded. Regular size dies do not resize this area. After 2 or 3 loadings, this area becomes too large to chamber. You will need the special collet size die mentioned in previous posts to your thread. As a bonus, it serves as a case gauge. If case falls in, good to go, if it does not, resize. You can also resize loaded rounds if need be. Be careful when adjusting your regular full length size die. DO not move the shoulder back. Moving the shoulder back will lead to case separation in very short order. I load for 7mm rem mag and 300 win mag. They work slick in the Browning BAR and Ruger Bolt rifle. The collet die works for both. Hope this is a help.

[AZ Pete]

+1 for neck sizing. If you are shooting the ammo from one rifle. I have never had a problem with my 300WinMag. Just neck size and trim on occasion. I might bump the shoulders back once in a while.

[r6487]

I bought the larry willis belted magnum die. works great and ended my 300 WBY problems. there is a reason the Secret Service was his first customer for the die, they were well aware of the belted case problem. also once the die is mounted in your press, it has a built in gauge. you can drop cases (mouth first into the top) if they go all the way to the belt, it is sized correctly, if not it needs to be sized thru the die. I had 1100 brass. of that group approximately 50 were oversized. now every cases goes thru before loading.

[winelover]

I'm using the RCBS X-sizer die for my 338 Win Mag-----I hate trimming. Never had a problem chambering rounds that were were reloaded many times.

Winelover

[jednorris]

I am looking into the collets sold by Larry Willis but apparently I need a seperate collet for each caliber. I load not only for my guns, but others also so neck sizing only is out. The measurement in front of the "Belt" is exactly as specified in my reloading manuals, no larger.

[tygar]

I have the mag belt sizer die. It works great & increases case life a lot. Have to use a small base die on my 300 SM in one bench gun. Tight chambers need to be sized to the belt. One .375 would case separate after a few firings but after using the die have had over 10 without separation lines forming.

[fguffey]

I have been reloading for many years but have encountered a problem that I cannot find an answer to. I reload for 7mm Mag., .300 Win. Mag. .300 Weatherby Mag. and .270 Short Mag. and have a problem with chambering after about two reloads. I full length resize with appropriate shell holder in a set of R.C.B.S. dies. I have checked the O.A.L. as well as the dimensions of all exterior measurements and they appear dead on. The thickness and diameter of the belt is fine and I can find no reason that it is hard to chamber. I thought I might try small base dies, but R.C.B.S. says they are not recommended for bolt action rifles. Any Ideas

This has the appearance of an add for Larry Willis.


tygar
I have the mag belt sizer die. It works great & increases case life a lot. Have to use a small base die on my 300 SM in one bench gun. Tight chambers need to be sized to the belt. One .375 would case separate after a few firings but after using the die have had over 10 without separation lines forming.

I am not sure what mag belt sizer die you have and are using. Case separation has more to do with how a die is used.

F. Guffey

[C. Latch]

This has the appearance of an add for Larry Willis.

Are you the same f. guffey that showed up in this thread that I found when I googled Larry Willis?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=545530

If so.....did mr. Willis kick your dog or something?

[Jim_P]

According to Larry's web page it's a single collet and die system. I quote: "There are no extra collets to buy when resizing different calibers."

After reading this thread, I did order the die. I also order his headspace guage. I'll be using it for my 7mm Rem Mag that is currently getting a stock upgrade.

After reading most of his page it made sense to me. That's usually the selling point.

[fguffey]

Are you the same f. guffey that showed up in this thread that I found when I googled Larry Willis?

The first post in the thread appears someone is using a cookie cutter, and there are predictable responses. For years I have used collets on lathes. But, I am not responding to reloaders that think. If a case is difficult to chamber the reloader should determine why.

I ask tygar what die is he using and I ask how does the die reduces case head separation.

F. Guffey

[tygar]

It is Larry Willis Belted Magnum collet die.

As to use of dies. "All" standard sizing dies cannot size the area immediately above the belt. This die's collet actually touches the belt & sizes to the correct size.

As for case sep, all belted mags will separate just above just above the belt. Some will sep after a couple firings, some after more.

What people who know do is use a pointed 90 degree prick to run over the inside of the case at the belt. If you feel a ridge, it's trash.

BMs headspace on the belt& that is why you get sep at the belt.

Larry's die helps keep the stretch down allowing more case life. Mostly I neck size my BMs then use Larry's. Case life has been greatly extended for me.

I've been using this since it came out. It works.

[fguffey]

BMs headspace on the belt& that is why you get sep at the belt.

I hear that everyday, goes something like "repeat after me". I was asked to help form cases for a belted magnum wildcat, the builder of very fine bench rest type rifles was short on cases. I know had he been able to form the cases he would not have asked for help.

First I had to determine if it was possible, I started with 8mm Remington Mag. cases. I also tried 300 Winchester Mag. and 300 Weatherby. All the advise he received started with "All you 'gotta' do is etc..". And none of that worked.

We started with 240 cases, 40 of the cases had to be hammered into the shell holder, he wanted me to bring the other RCBS #4 shell holder, I brought a gasket cutting hammer. 40 of his cases had been hammered, the extractor groove was .008" larger in diameter than the other 200, the case ahead of the belt was expanded .013"+. The builder of the fine rifles has 2 lathes with collets, I offered to use the collets to size the cases ahead of the belt and cut the extractor groves. I also suggested he give up on the 40 cases.

Belted magnum cases head space on the belt: there is nothing more boring than discussing head space on the Internet. Forming cases for Wildcat type bench rest rifles is different. I formed the cases to fit his chambers from the shoulder to the bolt face. All of the cases were longer from the shoulder to the case head than his chamber was from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. A reloader with a press with threads and dies with threads should have the ability to size cases to fit the chamber. Instead they chamber a round and fire to form cases, instead of forming cases first then fire.

Had a friend that built 5 magnificent rifles, of the first 10 rounds fired he had 5 case head separations. I honestly believe there is something going on that reloaders do not understand. Reloaders do not believe the damage could be caused during the first firing.

F. Guffey

[tygar]

Well if you know it all - why are you asking us dumazs? You know, us guys who have been doing this for 50+yrs, have had mags by the hundreds, use both belted & smooth mags in 1k bench rest & tacticals & have had made dozens of custom rifles. I guess we don't know anything.

As for head spaceing on the shoulder of belted mags, it rarely works unless you use a new barrel. Many times it plain doesn't work well on a BM barrel.

Using this die is a lot cheaper & works all the time.

Guess I'll know to ignore your posts since your looking for a fight instead of info.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have to ask,,, could one use a 5C collet to size BM cases in front of the belt like this die does?

Seems like it could accomplish the same thing but only if you have a lathe with 5C collets, or I guess you could use other collets as well. Seems like it would work since a collet is a collet.

The die does look well made and for the money if it solves the problem then why not, it's definately cheaper than a lathe.

Randy

[fguffey]

Larry's die helps keep the stretch down allowing more case life. Mostly I neck size my BMs then use Larry's. Case life has been greatly extended for me.


Guess I'll know to ignore your posts since your looking for a fight instead of info.

Forgive, not my intent, neck sizing is one thing, a universal die with a collet and no way to size the length of a case from the shoulder to the head of the case is something else. I disregard the belt and size cases to head space on the shoulder of the case.

F. Guffey

[725]

Is this Larry Willis die the same one from "Innovative Technologies"?

[tygar]

Is this Larry Willis die the same one from "Innovative Technologies"?

Yes it is

[Minerat]

The Willis die I have is for the 375 Holland and Holland based cartridges. It will work for any Belted Mag that has the same diameter as that shown for the area right ahead of the belt on a 7 mm Rem mag or the 300 Wby. Neck sizing only will work for a while (maybe 5 reloads) and then you will begin to have the problem. It seems to be caused because standard dies will not resize the last 1/8" before the belt. My 300 is not as bad as the 7mm. I sometimes get 5 full sized reloads from the 300 before needing to resize the area above the belt. The 7Mag maybe 2 times and they begin to get tight.

I have also found that if you use the Willis die the use plenty of Imperial sizing wax and rotate 90 degrees and size again. Willis DOES NOT recommend sizing loaded ammo. I resize with regular dies and check using the Willis die go/no go gauge and set the no go shells aside to treat later. I then resize the no go shells with the Willis die, then check MCL and trim if needed. In some cases the Willis die will add just enough length that if you sized a loaded round it could affect the length of the round enough that it would not chamber or cause a pressure problem because you are seating the bullet on the lands.

It is expensive but a buddy and I have salvaged around a 150 7mm & 300 WBY cases that were in the scrap bin. Everyone now loads like a factory round, no more forcing the bold closed and just that makes it worth while when you have to take a follow up shot on an elk.

[Jim_P]

Forgive, not my intent, neck sizing is one thing, a universal die with a collet and no way to size the length of a case from the shoulder to the head of the case is something else. I disregard the belt and size cases to head space on the shoulder of the case.

F. Guffey

Mr. Guffey,

I think if you read Larry's web site he is saying you still need to Full Length resize the case. I understood from the site that his collet die will form any developing bulge above the belt back to spec. Thereby reducing chambering issues and move the metal back into place to slow down case separation. That's how I understood it and why it made sense to me and I purchased his product.

Jim

[tygar]

Everything Minerat is right on. Exactly how to use it, including Imperal wax & turning 180 deg. & size again. When neck sizing, especially with Redding collet dies or even Lee, there is little to no case neck or shoulder lengthening, & if there is I use a body die to just touch the shoulder enough to chamber (on match guns), on hunting I will use the X die to preclude stretching. I do use his die to check proper sizing on non match ammo but I have custom chamber gauges for all custom/match/BR guns so I use them for those.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I would think that saving a couple dozen or so .300 Weatherby cases would just about pay for this tool. I know loaded ammo is $80 a box.

Randy

[Motor]

Minerat has it correct.

My 300 Win mag gets tight after the very first firing. No neck sizing or any kind of full length sizing will correct it.

When examined on an optical comparator the bulge in front of the belt is easily seen.

The collet removes this bulge fixing the problem.

Motor

[triggerhappy243]

I have been reloading for many years but have encountered a problem that I cannot find an answer to. I reload for 7mm Mag., .300 Win. Mag. .300 Weatherby Mag. and .270 Short Mag. and have a problem with chambering after about two reloads. I full length resize with appropriate shell holder in a set of R.C.B.S. dies. I have checked the O.A.L. as well as the demensions of all exterior measurements and they appear dead on. The thickness and diameter of the belt is fine and I can find no reason that it is hard to chamber. I thought I might try small base dies, but R.C.B.S. says they are not reccomended for bolt action rifles. Any Ideas

I am curious here, nothing has been said about possibly bulging the case shoulder with a possible bullet crimp. where on the case, is it hanging up? have you looked into where the brass is sticking? secondly, i do not share brass between other same caliber rifles. ( EXAMPLE: MY R-P BRASS IS SHOT IN ONLY MY RIFLE.)

[fguffey]

I thought I might try small base dies, but R.C.B.S. says they are not reccomended for bolt action rifles. Any Ideas

I formed 200 cases for a wildcat magnum type chamber. I started with 240 cases, 40 of the cases were expanded ahead of the belt .013"+ ( who measures?) The same cases were expanded to the point the case would not fit a #4 RCBS shell holder. (who measures the diameter of the case at the bottom of the extractor groove?) I could have used a collet in a lathe, choice of 5 lathes, I could have cut the extractor groove but choose not to because I know what caused the swell ahead of the belt.

I have 4 sets of RCBS small base dies called BAR. I had one chamber in a Model 70 Winchester with a 300 Win Mag, Winchester and I had words, I wanted a chamber that matched/fit my dies or I wanted Winchester dies to fit their chamber. My (small base) BAR 300 Win Mag dies did not have an advantage over the standard full length sizing die. The 300 Win Mag chamber was just too ugly, even if I had sized the cases the chamber would still be ugly. The rifle went back to Winchester, we had more words, they sent the rifle back in a new box.

Back to the bulge ahead of the belt. I do not have a magnum chamber that causes the case to bulge in front of the belt, but, if I did I would use a collet in a lathe. Again, the 40 cases I did not use to form cases for the wildcats because they had been hammered with overloads. the cases were in 20 round boxes, there were 2 boxes.

F. Guffey

[tygar]

Small base dies are not generally needed or wanted on bolts, but some match chambers are so tight that it takes a SB die to allow chambering.

[Lloyd Smale]

ill give you my guess as to whats happening. Its happened to me. Mag cases are larger and take a bit more effort to size. What ive found is if you don't religiously lube necks and lube the cases well the up stroke of the press handle (pulling the shell out of the die) will cause the case heads to get slightly bent out and harder to chamber. Ive especially noticed this with Winchester brass. I had one 7mag that had me scratching my head. The cases would chamber just fine after being shot but once I ran them through the die the bolt would barely close. Since then ive seen it in other mag rifles. Especially with ww brass or norma/wby brass. Couple draws of a file and they worked fine again.

[historicfirearms]

Lloyd, when you say it causes the case heads to be slightly bent out, are you talking about the rim? Sorry for being a little confused. I have had that problem with the rim getting bent before on some machine gun fired 7.62 brass.

[Lloyd Smale]

yes the rim
Lloyd, when you say it causes the case heads to be slightly bent out, are you talking about the rim? Sorry for being a little confused. I have had that problem with the rim getting bent before on some machine gun fired 7.62 brass.

[fguffey]

[/QUOTE]ill give you my guess as to whats happening.[/QUOTE]

LLoyd Smale, Occasional someone comes along I can talk to that does not respond like they were being 'talked' at. It is good to start with "my guess", I asked "Who Measures", I always make in attempt to die the question to "before and after". Then there is that time a manufacturer emailed me for support, he said the reloading community would benefit if I agreed with him, Agree with him? I do not even trust him.


I said I do not have a magnum that swells the case ahead of the belt. I said I have found magnum/belted cases with that were upset ahead of the belt, the same cases had case heads that were upset, some as much as .007" at the bottom of the extractor groove. Still? Did I provoke anyone to think? No.

I then mentioned a new Model 70 Winchester with a 300 Win Mag chamber. The chamber was the ugliest chamber I have ever seen. I wanted a chamber that matched my dies or Winchester dies that matched their chamber. I had two rifles with 300 Win mag chambers at the range, both were new, both were shooting the same ammo. One shot 'one hole groups' the Winchester shot patterns like a shotgun.

Back to "I'll give you my guess", When attempting to size the cases fired in the Winchester I got the feeling I was going to bust the die, I am not hard headed so I went to the lube with no name. (Still trying to provoke someone to think), when the case has more resistance to sizing than the press and die can overcome I have to consider the case is a column, when I apply pressure to the column the column supports the weight, with a brass case I do not expect the case/column to support pressure to force the case into the die. There is a very good chance the case will expand ahead of the die and at the same time the case can stick in the die. Who measures? I do. And then there is shoving the brass back and forth and brass flow and or stretching or is it stretch or flow.

F. Guffey

[historicfirearms]

What in the world? Thank God for the ignore function.

[fguffey]

What in the world? Thank God for the ignore function.

Ignore is an option, making an effort to keep up is another. If you will let me know what part you are having trouble with let me know. I have found belted cases that have expanded ahead of the belt, you seem to be happy with only knowing 'it happens', I am not. I want to know why.

Start over, I started with 240 Belted magnum cases, 40 of the belted magnum cases would not fit a magnum forming die, the same cases failed to fit a magnum RCBS #4 shell holder. To get the cases into the #4 shell holder I used a ball peen gasket cutting hammer.

40 out of 240 cases is about 16%, 16% of the cases had expanded ahead of the belt, all 40 of the cases had been hammered with heavy loads. I could have placed the cases in a lathe and undercut the extractor groove and used a collet to reduce the case body diameter ahead of the belt. Problem, I formed the cases for rifles I do not own and or shoot, after forming the cases fit the chamber to the thousandths. In my opinion it would be irresponsible to form work hardened brass.

F. Guffey

[Harter66]

Well now I have to go home and measure that 458WM die I've been using as a decaping die for the 264. It looks like it sizes all the way to the belt ,but reading this that is probably only true on the 450 Marlin..... food for thought.

[duckey]

I have been shooting NEW Hornady .375 H&H and ONCE fired PMC brass. The Hornady's had a visual bulge above the belt after one firing. I had loaded them two ways...with 73.5 GN and 78 GN of RL-15 with a Speer 235 GN Hot Core Semi spitzer. The PMC brass had the same charges put through them and had no visible bulge after 2 firings. I haven't put a mic to them to be precise, I'm thinking maybe PMC has a thicker case wall near the belt? I use an RCBS 2 Die FL set with Lee white paste lube. I do plan on getting a Willis sizing die to get as much life out of this brass. I think I may anneal the cases after 2 reloads. Just getting into Rifle reloading and reading different points/methods etc, lots of good info here.

[triggerhappy243]

In my experience, if you full length resize your brass it will not last near as long as just neck sizing. I have a 22-250 AI, that is classic proof that neck sizing is the only method to extend brass life.

[MT Chambers]

There are other fixes for your current fl. die use, one is to make washers out of different thicknesses of shim stock and try them between your case head and the shell holder, use the thickness that allows no play with the case in the shell holder. Option 2 is to slowly take some metal off the bottom of the die.

[C. Latch]

There are other fixes for your current fl. die use, one is to make washers out of different thicknesses of shim stock and try them between your case head and the shell holder, use the thickness that allows no play with the case in the shell holder. Option 2 is to slowly take some metal off the bottom of the die.

Elsewhere on this forum I'm keeping notes on a case-forming project I'm playing with, and I have found that most once-fired brass has case-head expansion that's more than I want to deal with. I have read and re-read this thread and considered buying one of these collet dies, however, I'm cheap, and I'm darned near broke right now after a long, cold, wet winter.


During my case-forming project I trimmed part of the base off a .300WM sizing die. I never throw away anything - not even scraps of metal - so I spent a few minutes this afternoon digging through my scrap box, found both slices off the die, and found that if I took the second slice (not the bottom 3/8" of the die, but the 1/4" above that) and screwed it down into the bottom of my press, with a tiny chamfer on the opening (so as to not scrape brass), it would return case-heads of .514-.512 down to .510-.511" or so, when I ran the case into it.

Cost: $0.

[duckey]

triggerhappy243

Could you please explain how just neck sizing will extend the life of your brass. Not saying your wrong. I just thinking that if you take a loaded case and shoot it and have bulge above the Belt, then only neck size it...how are you dealing with the bulge above the belt? Dose neck sizing alter the shoulder in any way? Or simply just size the neck? Could an ill fitting shell in you chamber cause a bulge above the belt? If I recall from Larry Willis (and my CRS might be kicking in here) but if the shoulder is bumped to fR back this could lead to case/head separation. I'm just spit balling here, trying to figur the best thing to do to save me $ on buying brass more than I have to.

[Harter66]

Ducky ,
it is a matter of how much of the case you work and how much it is worked . In neck sizing only the neck is sized and this method depends on the cases going back into the same rifle every time. It is effective because you size the neck just enough to get good neck tension . In some rifles the entire case is really shaped in a full length die. In this case you will have an accuracy loss and short case life . Neck sizing also give improved accuracy by having the case and bullet better aligned with the bore. In the case of belted mags the round heads paces on the belt rather than the shoulder. Full length sizing on these allows the whole case to walk around in the chamber on firing . If 1 can size just the belt and above and the neck for tension the cases last longer because they flex less and less of the case is flexed.

[tygar]

I have been shooting NEW Hornady .375 H&H and ONCE fired PMC brass. The Hornady's had a visual bulge above the belt after one firing. I had loaded them two ways...with 73.5 GN and 78 GN of RL-15 with a Speer 235 GN Hot Core Semi spitzer. The PMC brass had the same charges put through them and had no visible bulge after 2 firings. I haven't put a mic to them to be precise, I'm thinking maybe PMC has a thicker case wall near the belt? I use an RCBS 2 Die FL set with Lee white paste lube. I do plan on getting a Willis sizing die to get as much life out of this brass. I think I may anneal the cases after 2 reloads. Just getting into Rifle reloading and reading different points/methods etc, lots of good info here.

If you are firing them in the same rifle, neck sizing works great, extends case life by a bunch etc. I strongly recommend a collet neck die. The Redding is best & you can get the exact size collet you need for your specific rifle/brass. Even the Lee works good enough.

You still need the belt sizer to prevent belt separation but you will alleviate case stretch. When it starts to get hard to chamber just bump the shoulder.

You reduce stretch & work hardening of the brass so much that annealing is seldom needed.

Something else FWIW, most 375s are made to shoot 270-300gr. I've never been able to equal their accuracy w/235.

[Motor]

In the beginning belted magnums chambered on the belt. Some factory ammo may still be loose enough to. These were never intended to be reloaded.

The bulge that occurs in front of the belt is do to necessary clearance that has to exist for the round to chamber freely.

Full length size dies do not size belted magnums to head space off of the belt. They size to head space off of the shoulder. This insures any gap between belt and chamber is always present. Some chambers have more gap than others. This is why some rifles have little trouble while others get tight after the first firing. I have both of these currently.

Motor

[triggerhappy243]

NECK SIZING EXPLAINED. READ IT OVER AND OVER.

Duckey, A neck sizer only helps if the brass you neck size is fired in only 1 rifle. Neck sizers resize only the neck, and I think may bump the shoulder. Mine does not. It does not touch the case body at all. When you fire your brass in the rifle, the brass is now fire formed to that specific chamber. Now neck sizing allows you to reseat a bullet in that piece of brass so you can skip full length resizing. full length resizing works all parts of the brass back to saami specs. if your chamber is a little on the large side, the brass stretches more than needed. Now resizing brings it back... but at the expense of "BENDING AND RESHAPING" that piece of brass. This, coupled with excessive head space, causes the brass to stretch. This is where you see a case head failure.

NOW, i HAVE A RUGER #1 CUSTOM CHAMBERED in what is supposed to be 22-250 ackley improved. It is actually more like a 22-250 cheetah mark 3.5 It has way too much headspace. the person who cut the chamber screwed it up. Anyway, with the help of sierra ballistics techs, I have a method of fire forming brass that eliminates the case head failure because of the excessive headspace in my rifle. FAST FORWARD, I neck size all my brass for all my rifles. Now in the case of this ackley, when I tried fireforming factory 22-250 ammo in this rifle, i have a 50% case head failure rate............ with factory ammo. So after Sierra's help, I have a fool proof way to fire form the virgin brass. Now this was the test and this should show everyone that there is a lot of benefit to neck sizing. I took my entire reloading bench out to the range with 3 random pieces of that newly fireformed brass, along with a pound of powder and 60 bullets. I loaded those 3 pieces of brass over and over and over til i shot each piece of brass...................... 20 times. I am still shooting that brass today. NO CASE HEAD FAILURES ANYMORE.

AS FAR AS THIS BULGE GOES, The chamber dictates what brass gets this bulge.

No one addressed my first post to the original poster, where exactly the brass is hanging up. Is it really this bulge above the belt or is it somewhere else? Is the shoulder getting crushed a little and flaring, when the bullet is seated? . is the chamber cut too large at the breech end of the barrel? the make of the rifle is not even mentioned. I did not want to chime in on this one because there was so many others tipping in that my piece would go un- noticed............. which it did.

When I was 17 years old, I had a Ruger M77 in 338 win mag. Now this was 37 years ago when i did not know a whole lot about reloading. I got 4 reloads before my brass came apart. I did not know what neck sizing was then and I never had trouble closing the bolt on my reloads. So there is something missing in the equation.

[Motor]

""So there is something missing in the equation.""

Not really. As we all should know full length sizing causes a wave of brass to be pushed towards the case head. In non belted cases this wave gets transfered to the top when the thick web is reached. It also causes the case to thin right above the web. If you full length size it enough times it will eventully seperate.

Now take your belted case and apply the same principle. The wave stops at the belt. Then you crush the case between the shoulder and area just ahead of the belt. Its like bending a piece of metal back and forth until it breaks.

Its funny you mention Ruger. My offending rifle is a bicentenial Ruger M77 in .300 Win. Mag. As stated in an earlier post, this rifle's once fired brass is tight. You can size it all you want with whatever you want and its the same. The only way to correct it is to fix the bulge ahead of the belt. Full length sized brass, which is still tight, will seperate just ahead of the belt after about 3 sizings.

Motor

[fguffey]

Not really. As we all should know full length sizing causes a wave of brass to be pushed towards the case head. In non belted cases this wave gets transfered to the top when the thick web is reached. It also causes the case to thin right above the web. If you full length size it enough times it will eventully separate.

Not really? You have a wave of brass traveling down the case when sized, when the wave arrives at the case head above the belt the case gets 'thick?', and then? That causes case head separation? really?

I believe I would be hard pressed to find a reloader that understands the sequences of events between the trigger pull and the bullet leaving the barrel.

I thought stopping at "what am I missing" would have been a good place to stop.

F. Guffey

[Motor]

Not any harder than understanding your posts. Lol

The case is being crushed when sized. Then stretched again when fired. It only takes a couple of these before it seperates.

If thy guy with the .338 had no issues re- chambering his fired bass he could have short sized or neck only sized and very likely would have gotten good case life.

Motor

[RP]

Very interesting read I have two friends that want to start reloading for 7 mags one owes one rifle the other owns three of them. I have never messed with any belted mags before so maybe this will save me some grief.
If I understand the post and picking from here and there is this train of thought along the right track. When you FL size a belted case the sizing is stopping above the belt which kind of pushes the brass down to that point. Which may or may not cause the bulge the first time but after a few times it will appear. So if I have brass lets call it pick up brass since I have gotten from all over I need to FL size get the die to remove the bulge then neck size only to save the brass life. Also keep the lots of brass for each rifle for that rifle only. And also check with a pic for any signs of separation.

[triggerhappy243]

here is my point about "THIS BULGE". if a bulge is created, is it because there is space for the brass to "FLOW"? I think so. Motor left out the fact that brass "STRETCHING" the length of the case has more effect in case head separation, than resizing alone. Like fguffy pointed out there are more things going on with the brass case once the trigger is pulled than most reloaders understand. I for one totally understand, because I have been dealing with a rifle that has excessive headspace and I am having 1 in every 2 rounds have a case head failure, from factory ammo.

And Motor, I full length sized back then. did not know what a neck sizer was, let alone knew if it even existed.

[Motor]

RP My 300 will bulge the case above the belt the first time it's fired.

This is brand new factory ammo. Fire a round. Eject it. Then try to re-chamber the empty case.

This is not speculation. It is fact. This particular rifle is worse than most.

I have a 7mm Remington magnum and so far have not had any problems sizing in the normal manner.

This is one of those things that only needs addressed if you have a problem.

Motor

[Motor]

th243, I didn't mean to say you did anything wrong. I was just speculating that if you knew what was happening then you may have been able to get around it.

Your 338 probably had a long chamber and full length sizing was buckling the case body on a very small scale of course just above the belt.

Motor

[triggerhappy243]

the rifle i was referring to with the excessive head space was a ruger #1 chambered in 22-250 ackley improved. my 338 had no bulging issues.

[triggerhappy243]

read my post #46 again. it explains alot.

[Motor]

read my post #46 again. it explains alot.

You said your 338 would seperate cases after 4 loading but did not have the bulge problem.

I'm saying the 338 may have had a long chamber and full length sizing was basically over working the brass because of it. The results are the same. Case head seperation.

This is very likely what is wrong with my 300 but being a "Made in the 200 year of American Liberty" model I can't see taking it too a gun smith to be fixed and Ruger would re-barrel it which the bicentenial barrel would be gone.

However. If I fix the bulge with the collet tool then neck or short size it should be just fine.

Motor

[243winxb]

When full length sizing, headspacing (head clearance) a belted magnum off the shoulder, the area in front of the belt may become unsupported in the chamber on firing. Brass will bulge.