new blr in .358winchester

[tdroo]

After reading the shooting times article about the .358w I just had to get one. So with some searching I found a new one. Some more searching found some ammo. the only thing out there was buffalo bore stuff,so what the hay. Finally, a decent day to get to the range I got the new gun out and on the second shot I couldn't extract the case.With a little more effort it came out,but with no primer in it! Now to the gist of this. Should I've cleaned the factory lube out of the gun first? Should I have a smith check headspacing? Buffalo bore ammo to much pressure? Any ideas?

[historicfirearms]

I have an older 308 blr with steel receiver that was giving me sticky extraction. A good chamber cleaning cured it. My newer 358 blr has never given me any problems. I have read the blrs are chambered to minimum specs, dunno. Loosing a primer would concern me, don't know what would cause that.

[Artful]

I always clean before shooting a new to me gun...

[TXGunNut]

Isn't Buffalo Bore ammo a bit warm? And yes, I always give any new acquisition a good cleaning. I got an ungodly amount of grease and grime out of a NEW 17HMR 597 several years ago, it likely would have ruptured a case or worse if I had tried to fire it as-is.

[MT Gianni]

I have had 90% + success in necking up 308 brass with a lee die. It's very easy to make.

[tdroo]

Thanks for the input. I know with my bpcr it doesn't like a wet chamber. Is that true for any gun? The new gun has a thin film of lube all throughout the chamber. I'm thinking getting some of the aresol cleaners and blasting the chamber then relube with my stuff.

[waksupi]

A chamber SHOULD NOT have any lube in it!

[tdroo]

Thanks for the input. I know with my bpcr it doesn't like a wet chamber. Is that true for any gun? The new gun has a thin film of lube all throughout the chamber. I'm thinking getting some of the aresol cleaners and blasting the chamber then relube with my stuff.

[TXGunNut]

Clean bore, dry chamber.

[timspawn]

I have seen at least three BLR's that had sticky chambers. A 243 that went back to Browning three times. Another 243 that I owned and a 22-250 that my wife slayed many armadillos and hogs with. The 22-250 was the only one I spent a long time with. The chamber needed to be kept very clean for it to cycle properly.

[waksupi]

Thanks for the input. I know with my bpcr it doesn't like a wet chamber. Is that true for any gun? The new gun has a thin film of lube all throughout the chamber. I'm thinking getting some of the aresol cleaners and blasting the chamber then relube with my stuff.]

Clean it, and DO NOT RELUBE IT!!!!
No lube on your cartridges, either. They are supposed to be dry, to grip the brass at the moment of ignition.

[EDG]

A very small amount of lube on the chamber walls hurts nothing and is par for the course for most firearms after they have been cleaned. The difference between a little lube and zero lube does not have a terribly significant effect on bolt thrust.
If your rifle design is so marginal that a little lube is a problem you should probably not have bought it. It is a lousy design if that is true. The notion that the cartridge case should function as a brake to protect the action is not reasonable.

[pietro]

.


IMO, cartridge lubing is simply dangerous.....................

BLR's are notorious for minimal chambers, often requiring special "Browning" loading dies that resize more of the case, to reduce the base diameter of fired brass.

It's never a good idea to fire any newly-acquired guns without first cleaning & inspecting them thoroughly.




.

[richhodg66]

A blown primer means pressures are too high. Sounds like that ammo is loaded hot.

AS a relatively new fan of the .358 Winchester, let me suggest you get a mold and start loading for it, one of the easiest cartridges out there to get good results with. My deer load last year was the NOW clone of the RCBS 200 grain FP and 40 grains of IMR4320. Accurate load and killed well.

[tdroo]

I'm gonna start with a good cleaning then dykem a cartridge and check for interference. Hand loading ultimately will be my goal with the scarcity of factory ammo.

[Artful]

Oh, being it's just a necked up 308 (brass is very available cheap) - I'd not waste anymore money on factory ammo.

[waksupi]

A very small amount of lube on the chamber walls hurts nothing and is par for the course for most firearms after they have been cleaned. The difference between a little lube and zero lube does not have a terribly significant effect on bolt thrust.
If your rifle design is so marginal that a little lube is a problem you should probably not have bought it. It is a lousy design if that is true. The notion that the cartridge case should function as a brake to protect the action is not reasonable.

You may want to check Hatcher's Notebook.

[sthwestvictoria]

You may want to check Hatcher's Notebook.
A bit of a hijack however I read conflicting reports about this, some theories state Hatcher and Whelen wrote about this when heat treated recievers and tin plated bullets were the problems.
The Schwarzlose machine gun, Nambu, Jlungmans AG42. The FN5.7 has teflon coated brass.
There was a Handloader magazine article with some empiric testing anyone have a copy?

Edit:
"Bolt thrust and related myths" by John Barsness. Handloader 286, Oct-Nov 2013

[EDG]

It is not dangerous as long as you only have a thin film.
Some light machine guns actually used oilers to lubricate the round to ease extraction.
Like I said planning on using the case for a brake is dumb.

Lube in the chamber of BPCRs can be a problem because the black powder used is like launching a burning dirt clod down the bore. This mass of sharp edged powder grains can actually grab the inside of the case and tear it off at the site of the cannelure of some 45-70 brass. However this is NOT a pressure problem. The lubricated case stretches easier and pulls into as a result. Smokeless powder has never done that to be best of my knowledge.


.


IMO, cartridge lubing is simply dangerous.....................

BLR's are notorious for minimal chambers, often requiring special "Browning" loading dies that resize more of the case, to reduce the base diameter of fired brass.

It's never a good idea to fire any newly-acquired guns without first cleaning & inspecting them thoroughly.




.

[EDG]

Maybe you want to go back and read it yourself. That was in the days of low number Springfields and ammo with tinned bullets that welded themselves to the case. I suspect they might have covered up some other issues back then. In any event there have been both rifles and machine guns designed to use lubricated ammo. Even the Swiss GP 11 ammo has some lubricant on the bullet outside at the case mouth.
If you can come up with an engineering analysis (proposed theory and facts) of why a thin film is bad I am all ears. But every person on this site at one time or another fires a rifle with some lube or solvent in the chamber - without harm I will add.

From my own experience with fire forming cases, I normally wipe a very thin film of oil on every case before it is fired the first time. I use starting or middle of the charge recommendation loads so my fire forming load is the same load I normally shoot. I have done this thousands of times with absolutely no issue. I have done this with every type of action.


You may want to check Hatcher's Notebook.

[waksupi]

Maybe you want to go back and read it yourself. That was in the days of low number Springfields and ammo with tinned bullets that welded themselves to the case. I suspect they might have covered up some other issues back then. In any event there have been both rifles and machine guns designed to use lubricated ammo. Even the Swiss GP 11 ammo has some lubricant on the bullet outside at the case mouth.
If you can come up with an engineering analysis (proposed theory and facts) of why a thin film is bad I am all ears. But every person on this site at one time or another fires a rifle with some lube or solvent in the chamber - without harm I will add.

From my own experience with fire forming cases, I normally wipe a very thin film of oil on every case before it is fired the first time. I use starting or middle of the charge recommendation loads so my fire forming load is the same load I normally shoot. I have done this thousands of times with absolutely no issue. I have done this with every type of action.

When reforming, you are lubing the case so the case will stretch. Is that really something that you want to happen every time you fire that case? And do you want the excess bolt thrust, leading to headspace problems eventually? Machine guns don't even enter into the conversation, as the purpose is much different firing a weapon at high rates.

[EDG]

Waksupi
You apparently do not understand enough to have a good debate. Your questions do not reflect any real knowledge of or experience with the subject. You are repeating old myths that have no basis unless you are talking about drowning the chamber with oil or packing it full of grease. I am not talking about either condition here.

1. I use a light film of oil to let the case walls slide when fire forming. I never said the case was stretching over the length. I set the case shoulder long enough to make the bolt drag slightly when closing the bolt on a loaded round. The oil merely lets the case fill out the chamber easier. Do you know how to set a case so that its head to datum clearance in the chamber is zero? I do. If I size a case and fire it with lube or no lube nothing much can stretch because I have never moved the shoulder back. All the die does is change the case dimensions diametrally. There is no chance of head to shoulder stretch unless the action is springy. I do not shoot many springy rifle actions.

2. Now you will have to explain what you mean by excess bolt thrust because it is clear you do not know this subject very well. I have previously said that it is poor design to expect the cartridge case to act as a brake to protect the action. Who in their right mind would expect the poor old cartridge case to act as a brake?? That is what you are implying.
If you think that a case should take up the load from the bolt thrust you should really go study mechanical design a lot more. You might also go over to Varmit Al's site and read the pages on bolt thrust, chamber finish and finite element analysis of an action. The software used for such analysis is a standard tool used by engineers all over the world for calculating stresses in materials, where the stresses are concentrated and the deformation that occurs. (It has been approved in lieu of actual engineering testing by the FDA for metal hip joint implants. This is a demanding part because the FDA regulations require that the implant be capable of taking 10 million load cycles (10 million steps). That represents a 15 year implant life. )
There is no chance of excess headspace developing with the amount of oil I am using. If you think there is please do your engineering analysis of the forces involved. Draw a free body diagram and show how extra force gets generated by an oiled case. Then quantify that extra force. Explain how that extra force is going to produce headspace in a rifle action. Of course you need to be able to analyze the strength of an action by either manual calculations, spread sheet calculations or by finite element analysis. Then go to Varmit Al's and review his work. He was a professional engineer and it shows in his work methods and presentation.

3. Machine guns are a reasonable example for this discussion. Oiling ammunition to promote extraction was designed into some machine guns nearly 100 years ago. If oil in small quantities was going to blow something up they would find out in the first 2 weeks of use. At 500 rounds a minute a machine gun will have more rounds fired in 10 minutes of firing than most rifles will see in 3 life times.

Yes you can cause problems if you drown a gun with oil. You will also cause problems if you shoot it in a pouring rain. Yes you can shoot your M1, M1-A, Hakim, 760 and 141 Remington pump guns, 336 Marlins and others without problems. I use the oil for fire forming cases. I do not use it for normal shooting because the cases already fit the chamber so there is nothing to be gained.

I would bet that each and everyone of us has fired multiple rounds in multiple rifles that had oily chambers from being cleaned and then being stood in a gun rack, safe or corner.







When reforming, you are lubing the case so the case will stretch. Is that really something that you want to happen every time you fire that case? And do you want the excess bolt thrust, leading to headspace problems eventually? Machine guns don't even enter into the conversation, as the purpose is much different firing a weapon at high rates.

[TXGunNut]

Results (and pics) talk, EDG. Other stuff walks. Unlike you I'm a newbie around here. I may not understand some of the finer points. Show us the data that back up your position.

[waksupi]

Waksupi
You apparently do not understand enough to have a good debate. Your questions do not reflect any real knowledge of or experience with the subject. You are repeating old myths that have no basis unless you are talking about drowning the chamber with oil or packing it full of grease. I am not talking about either condition here.

1. I use a light film of oil to let the case walls slide when fire forming. I never said the case was stretching over the length. I set the case shoulder long enough to make the bolt drag slightly when closing the bolt on a loaded round. The oil merely lets the case fill out the chamber easier. Do you know how to set a case so that its head to datum clearance in the chamber is zero? I do. If I size a case and fire it with lube or no lube nothing much can stretch because I have never moved the shoulder back. All the die does is change the case dimensions diametrally. There is no chance of head to shoulder stretch unless the action is springy. I do not shoot many springy rifle actions.

2. Now you will have to explain what you mean by excess bolt thrust because it is clear you do not know this subject very well. I have previously said that it is poor design to expect the cartridge case to act as a brake to protect the action. Who in their right mind would expect the poor old cartridge case to act as a brake?? That is what you are implying.
If you think that a case should take up the load from the bolt thrust you should really go study mechanical design a lot more. You might also go over to Varmit Al's site and read the pages on bolt thrust, chamber finish and finite element analysis of an action. The software used for such analysis is a standard tool used by engineers all over the world for calculating stresses in materials, where the stresses are concentrated and the deformation that occurs. (It has been approved in lieu of actual engineering testing by the FDA for metal hip joint implants. This is a demanding part because the FDA regulations require that the implant be capable of taking 10 million load cycles (10 million steps). That represents a 15 year implant life. )
There is no chance of excess headspace developing with the amount of oil I am using. If you think there is please do your engineering analysis of the forces involved. Draw a free body diagram and show how extra force gets generated by an oiled case. Then quantify that extra force. Explain how that extra force is going to produce headspace in a rifle action. Of course you need to be able to analyze the strength of an action by either manual calculations, spread sheet calculations or by finite element analysis. Then go to Varmit Al's and review his work. He was a professional engineer and it shows in his work methods and presentation.

3. Machine guns are a reasonable example for this discussion. Oiling ammunition to promote extraction was designed into some machine guns nearly 100 years ago. If oil in small quantities was going to blow something up they would find out in the first 2 weeks of use. At 500 rounds a minute a machine gun will have more rounds fired in 10 minutes of firing than most rifles will see in 3 life times.

Yes you can cause problems if you drown a gun with oil. You will also cause problems if you shoot it in a pouring rain. Yes you can shoot your M1, M1-A, Hakim, 760 and 141 Remington pump guns, 336 Marlins and others without problems. I use the oil for fire forming cases. I do not use it for normal shooting because the cases already fit the chamber so there is nothing to be gained.

I would bet that each and everyone of us has fired multiple rounds in multiple rifles that had oily chambers from being cleaned and then being stood in a gun rack, safe or corner.

Do you know what I do for a living? [smilie=l:

[45coltnut]

tdroo,

Slightly off subject, but how is the trigger on the BLR? I LOVE Brownings and I've wanted a BLR for some time. But, I keep hearing bad things on the trigger.

[RJM52]

BB ammo is laded quite "warm" compared to the standard Winchester 200 grain ST ammo. The BLR is a strong design but I doubt it is as strong as a bolt gun.

A friend asked me about getting a new rifle for a trip to Alaska he and a friend were taking. They were flying is a Cesna 172 and needed something compact but powerful as they would be camping at remote air strips. I suggested a BLR Take-Down in .358 and we probably found the last new one on the market. He has been loading it with 250 grain jacketed bullets and has been very happy with the performance...

He is a very innovative guy....

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Hunting%20Rifles/Survival22s088.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Hunting%20Rifles/Survival22s088.jpg.html)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Hunting%20Rifles/Survival22s087.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Hunting%20Rifles/Survival22s087.jpg.html)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Hunting%20Rifles/Survival22s086.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Hunting%20Rifles/Survival22s086.jpg.html)


...we call it the "Killzall"...

Bob

[timspawn]

BB ammo is laded quite "warm" compared to the standard Winchester 200 grain ST ammo. The BLR is a strong design but I doubt it is as strong as a bolt gun.

A friend asked me about getting a new rifle for a trip to Alaska he and a friend were taking. They were flying is a Cesna 172 and needed something compact but powerful as they would be camping at remote air strips. I suggested a BLR Take-Down in .358 and we probably found the last new one on the market. He has been loading it with 250 grain jacketed bullets and has been very happy with the performance...

He is a very innovative guy....

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Hunting%20Rifles/Survival22s088.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Hunting%20Rifles/Survival22s088.jpg.html)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Hunting%20Rifles/Survival22s087.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Hunting%20Rifles/Survival22s087.jpg.html)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Hunting%20Rifles/Survival22s086.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Hunting%20Rifles/Survival22s086.jpg.html)


...we call it the "Killzall"...

Bob


Ah..It's the old "rifle in the Makita saw case" trick. Very nice.

[historicfirearms]

tdroo,

Slightly off subject, but how is the trigger on the BLR? I LOVE Brownings and I've wanted a BLR for some time. But, I keep hearing bad things on the trigger.

My older steel receiver 308 has 4.5 pound trigger with a little creep. My newer 358 lightweight has a 4 pound trigger and very little creep. The newer one has a little better feel but both are entirely usable for a hunting rifle.

[snowwolfe]

Bought one of these BLR's recently myself but haven't shot it yet. Added a Leupold 1.5x5 scope to it so it should make a handy big game rifle for any critter in the lower 48 up to 200 yards away.
Have no plans on necking up .308 brass as I have other rifles chambered in .308 and do not want to run the risk of mixing up ammo. Hornady brass can be found for about $39 a box of 50 at Amazon on occasion and at Sportsman Warehouse.

[303carbine]

I shot my 358 BLR with 225 grain Sierra BT bullets, the chronograph printed 2450 fps .
I never had extraction problems and accuracy was excellent, I reformed my brass from 308 Win brass.
On a different note, brass is supposed to act as a gasket and seal so the gases don't come back.
Oily chambers or brass doesn't allow this to happen, some may choose to do it this way, I prefer dry chamber and ammo.
Perhaps some will argue that it is safe, I choose not find out.

[303carbine]

Bought one of these BLR's recently myself but haven't shot it yet. Added a Leupold 1.5x5 scope to it so it should make a handy big game rifle for any critter in the lower 48 up to 200 yards away.
Have no plans on necking up .308 brass as I have other rifles chambered in .308 and do not want to run the risk of mixing up ammo. Hornady brass can be found for about $39 a box of 50 at Amazon on occasion and at Sportsman Warehouse.



308 Winchester ammo will chamber and fire in the 358 with no adverse affects, 358 will not even chamber in the 308.
You are doing it the safe way by not mixing, safe is good.[smilie=s:

[OverMax]

B/B is re-manufactured ammo having pretty stout loadings. But not so stout as to blow its primers. Knowing Browning. I highly doubt you have any head-spacing problems. As far as a fired cartridge sticking in its chamber. You could encounter such a problem with hand or re-manufactured loaded ammo no matter who makes it.
Frankly speaking: I think you would be far better off using newly manufactured ammo (Winchester Remington or Hornady brands) in that BLR until its broke in a little. That sir Is your best alternative to remedy both issues encountered. BTW: Since the rifle was bought new. You should have gotten its a Owners Manual covering its care & cleaning. I would highly suggest its reading prior to any weapons firing.

[richhodg66]

I don't have any experience with BLRs, but you're gonna like the .358, especially with cast.

That Makita hard case is the neatest idea I've seen in a while. I'll have to look around for a case like that for one of my Handis.