Careful Analysis of Segregated Range Scrap Smelt

[Bigslug]

The common lament of range scrap is usually the Forrest Gump maxim of "Life is like a box of chocolates". I wanted to cut through some of that and get a better idea of what we're REALLY dealing with - at least short of finding someone with an XRF scanner.

The big problem with hardness testing ingots is that (a.) they don't cool like bullets do, and (b.) they don't tell you the water quenching properties of your alloy.

So what I did with my most recent smelt: I separated each class of metal as best I could visually into its own melt. After each pot was cleaned up, prior to pouring it into ingots, I ladle-cast eight bullets into a Lee 452-300; four of them got water-dropped, and four of them were allowed to air cool. They were given a week and a half to cure and then we put the Cabine Tree tester to them. WHAT WE GOT:

SHOTGUN PELLETS: Air cooled - 14 BHN. Water cooled - 23-24 BHN. Mostly, this was #9 shot, but there was a good amount of varying sizes rescued from water-damaged shells (paper and plastic hulls).

SHOTGUN SLUGS: Air cooled - @ 8 BHN. Water cooled - @ 8.5 BHN. There was undoubtedly some minor antimony contamination from incorrectly identified fragments, but the bulk of it is from Winchester 1-ouncers. This had a very nice yellow tin sheen atop the melt, and basically no change from AC to WC indicates we're dealing with a binary 40-1 tin mix.

UPDATE - SECOND SMELT 4-25-2015: Did a VERY careful segregation this time around to ensure that every lump and fragment in the pot had started out as a shotgun slug. Again, predominantly Winchester. 8.5 BHN for the air cooled, and 8.5 BHN for the water dropped. Yep. This stuff is 40-1.

JACKETED BULLETS: Air cooled - 9.5 BHN. Water cooled - 12.5 BHN. A lot of this was obviously jacketed pistol projectiles, but there were quite a bit of "flakes" and "lumps" from steel target impacts for which I had to make my best guess, so there was certainly some contamination from someone else's cast bullets. I'll be repeating this with more stringent control next time around. There was a definite yellow tin sheen on top of this melt as well, leading me to believe that if antimony contamination from cast slugs is totally avoided, this stuff may very well work out to be 20-1 . . .which would suit me VERY well indeed!

UPDATE - SECOND SMELT 4-25-2015: More stringent segregation of the fragments here as well, and that did in fact tighten up the numbers - 8.5 BHN for the air cooled and 9 BHN for the water. So it definitely has a binary alloy vibe to it. 30-1ish. . .

CAST BULLETS: There are not yet enough of these to fill the pot for a melt. TO BE CONTINUED!

UPDATE - SECOND SMELT 4-25-2015: Finally got these slagged down. Melt consisted of other people's cast, fragments of unidentifiable origin, and our rejects and floor-splatter sweepings from various casts. Acted like wheelweight at 12.5 BHN air cooled and 23.5 BHN water dropped.

CLIP-ON WHEEL WEIGHTS: Air cooled - 12.5 BHN. Water cooled - 22 BHN. I was fortunate to get a large bucketful of 20+ year-old weights from a non-casting co-worker who's father never got around to them before he passed.

This is of course only one data collection point, but I believe this process has now become my standard, so I'll eventually see just how consistent the metal stays. My hope is that with a little effort given to separating types, range scrap can become a known quantity.

Please, pick my methods apart, y'all!

UPDATE 9/02/2018 AFTER XRF SCANNING (related comments in posts from this date forward)

I recently sent samples of metal segregated as above to member BNE for scanning, and received back the following results:

Jacketed range scrap: 99.7% lead, 0.3% antimony

Slugs: 99.8% lead, 0.1% antimony, 0.1% tin. Whether the trace amounts are from outside contamination in the smelt, or from the tiny number of Brenneke-type slugs mixed in with the hollow-base Fosters I can't speculate on, but in a primarily-Foster environment, I think we can functionally regard them as "almost, but not quite pure".

#9 shot: 98.3% lead, 1.7% antimony.

Hopefully that will aid the endeavors of my fellow berm-pickers.:drinks:

[nagantguy]

Nice write up, I've often wondered about range scrape, the range mine comes from is small private range /classroom. Its about 50/50 cast boolots and jacketed .22s with some jword pistol boolits thrown in. Never would have guessed water dropping would increase brh by that much on some things. Thanks for taking time to.post this.

[scottfire1957]

Thank you for your efforts.

[Bigslug]

Nice write up, I've often wondered about range scrape, the range mine comes from is small private range /classroom. Its about 50/50 cast boolots and jacketed .22s with some jword pistol boolits thrown in.

I'm hoping that someone who mines a smallbore range can copy my process with a smelt dedicated to .22LR bullets, as it seems to be a pretty common lead source for some folks. . .Not for me though - I'm scrounging on a 300 yard range that's up a gentle slope to a mountain, with a couple of berms along the way. I'm picking up what's lying on the berms or has landed on the slope between them. Everything's a cost/benefit analysis of what's worth the trouble to bend over and pick up. Slugs and .45's are a lot more enticing than .22's in that situation - to say nothing of even SEEING the little guys!

[melloairman]

I'm hoping that someone who mines a smallbore range can copy my process with a smelt dedicated to .22LR bullets, as it seems to be a pretty common lead source for some folks. . .Not for me though - I'm scrounging on a 300 yard range that's up a gentle slope to a mountain, with a couple of berms along the way. I'm picking up what's lying on the berms or has landed on the slope between them. Everything's a cost/benefit analysis of what's worth the trouble to bend over and pick up. Slugs and .45's are a lot more enticing than .22's in that situation - to say nothing of even SEEING the little guys!
Have you saved your samples to see what they will set at in 15-30 days ? I have mined our indoor .22 range which has about a 98% high velocity LR ammo shot in it at our kids shoot . It comes out at 60-65 on the cabintree after it has sat for at least 30 days . It has some antimony in it and takes a while to cure . My mix bag of outdoor pistol range I let set now for at least 60 days or longer before I test it because of the antimony in it . As a norm if I cast my cabintree tested at 80 that has sat for 6-12 months at 10 days air cooled bullets are still at 65 on the dial .Marvin

[bigjake]

Why do they use so much tin in shotgun slugs? I always thought they were mostly pure lead.

[MarkP]

Thanks for posting your results.

My main source of lead is reclaimed shot, it is very handy to use. I knew it was pretty hard when water dropped but never measured the hardness.

[geargnasher]

I see no problem with the methods, it's a good test. Thanks for posting.

Gear

[Bigslug]

Bigjake and MarkP,

If my findings hold up, then the typical Foster slug is going to be made up of about 2.5% tin. In tinkering with our forum alloy calculator, this is cool for a couple of reasons:

1. It lets you save some of your pure, store-bought tin when creating tin-richer mixes.

2. If you mix shotgun slugs 1:1 with small-pellet birdshot, you'll end up with something very close to those old school wheelweights that are becoming harder and harder to find.

[Bigslug]

Have you saved your samples to see what they will set at in 15-30 days ?

Nope. There's always going to be the debatable factor of how long to let your wine and cheese age. My last batch of high-antimony water-dropped pistol bullets was 23-24 BHN after 2-3 days and it was the same after some weeks. I figure after a week - especially after water dropping - the major setting up has taken place.

[melloairman]

Nope. There's always going to be the debatable factor of how long to let your wine and cheese age. My last batch of high-antimony water-dropped pistol bullets was 23-24 BHN after 2-3 days and it was the same after some weeks. I figure after a week - especially after water dropping - the major setting up has taken place.
I must have not understood your post . I thought you were giving info for casters that air cool as well as those that water drop . I do not know much about the age of wine and cheese . But a few of my rifles can sure tell the difference about air cooled bullets once they are aged over 10 bhn .Marvin

[Bigslug]

Mello,

I get where you're coming from, and I'll probably do future tests of the AC samples once they're old enough for it. The thing about these scientific endeavors is we all have our limits of what is "too much science", and pondering the natural fluctuation of antimony-based mixes rapidly strains mine. There are guys who time their casting to their African hunt and keep their bullets in the freezer to ensure optimum BHN's within a two week window. More power to 'em, but I will never be one of those. I think what is most exciting ME about the research so far is that I may have found a couple of FREE sources of binary lead/tin metal that dispense with the mind-bending antimony altogether.

The good news is as a result of this thread, I've lined up a member contact with access to an XRF scanner. I'm going to do a more stringently segregated smelt and get some samples off to him with the hope of learning more about what is in the individual scrap bullet types, so that we can better make our own decisions about what to separate and what to melt together.

[RogerDat]

I think it is a good method with useful results. Since it takes time to segregate, and the more rigorous the criteria for segregation the longer that sorting will take it seems to me the information provided is at about the right point. Enough sorting that a typical caster might be inclined to repeat that sort from their own berm mining, with enough guidance as to what direction each type of ammo will take the resulting lead for those that have a desire to sort at a more sphincter retentive basis to control their alloy. Or just want to pick up what will work best for their needs for efficiencies sake.

Sorted beyond a certain point and all you are really going to get for a results is the average of jacketed, shot gun slug, and plain lead projectiles. Most won't sort to that detail simply because it won't matter enough to what they shoot to be worth the extra time.

[Bigslug]

Yep. Easy to overdo. The change I intend to make next time around is to dump any fragments of uncertain origin in with the cast bullets, as they are comprised of mystery metal anyway.

Within the jacketed projectiles though, I am curious to learn if there is any difference between the cores of the exposed lead base, swaged FMJ's, and the totally encapsulated, heavily plated ones being produced by Federal/Speer/CCI. Since there's a different manufacturing process on those, and more potential to summon the tinsel fairy with them during a smelt, I figure it'll be good to know what they're bringing to the party.

[melloairman]

Mello,

I get where you're coming from, and I'll probably do future tests of the AC samples once they're old enough for it. The thing about these scientific endeavors is we all have our limits of what is "too much science", and pondering the natural fluctuation of antimony-based mixes rapidly strains mine. There are guys who time their casting to their African hunt and keep their bullets in the freezer to ensure optimum BHN's within a two week window. More power to 'em, but I will never be one of those. I think what is most exciting ME about the research so far is that I may have found a couple of FREE sources of binary lead/tin metal that dispense with the mind-bending antimony altogether.

The good news is as a result of this thread, I've lined up a member contact with access to an XRF scanner. I'm going to do a more stringently segregated smelt and get some samples off to him with the hope of learning more about what is in the individual scrap bullet types, so that we can better make our own decisions about what to separate and what to melt together.
Well I do not mean to give you more work than you already have. I thought it might be helpful for some that do not have a bhn tester to see a time line of air cooled . Like I said my mix bag of range lead can get up to 80-85 . But if I cast with it for a rifle that needs 60-65 then I can test it as time goes by but as a rule I have about a week to shoot it before I have problems . But not everyone has a way to test . Marvin

[RogerDat]

Yep. Easy to overdo. The change I intend to make next time around is to dump any fragments of uncertain origin in with the cast bullets, as they are comprised of mystery metal anyway.

Within the jacketed projectiles though, I am curious to learn if there is any difference between the cores of the exposed lead base, swaged FMJ's, and the totally encapsulated, heavily plated ones being produced by Federal/Speer/CCI. Since there's a different manufacturing process on those, and more potential to summon the tinsel fairy with them during a smelt, I figure it'll be good to know what they're bringing to the party.

Sounds like that information on jacketed would be useful, and this thread provides a good guide to mining and sorting. Thanks for your efforts. Like the sorting categories you suggest and way of dealing the unidentifiable stuff.

When I find scrap ingots and assorted lead "stuff" I just accumulate the unknown into a big enough batch to be worth figuring out how to use it, much as you suggest doing with cast and other unknowns. Worth working out a recipe for 75# of accumulated unknown, 5-10# at a time not so much.

[freebullet]

Interesting Thanks for sharing.

I was fortunate that another member here whom steals all the lead off my range was gracious enough to share his results. Thanks to btroj for sharing. I was kidding about him stealing it (kind of). Ours is roughly 11.5bhn iirc off the pistol berms.

[btroj]

Ours runs 11.5 to 12 BHn air cooled but water drops or heat treats easily to 22-24 BHn.

I think this test is interesting. Seeing what each source provides is useful. I do think both air cooled and water dropped would be helpful but also adds lots of work.

Keep up the good work. Don't forget, always defend your berms. I know I defend mine against all comers, right Freebullet?

[freebullet]

Lol, fortunately with the volume our berms get shot we really don't have to defend the berm.

[btroj]

I know. I hope lots of people got a 45 for Christmas.

[freebullet]

I was thinking shotgun slugs, but 45's and 44's would be great too.

[btroj]

But a shotgunner isn't gonna throw 400 rounds down range in a day. I'm just tired of 9s and 380s.
Anyone wanting to "dig up" bullets beneath the surface of a berm need to know that a 44 mag makes an excellent shovel.

[tygar]

Good info, thanks. Will look forward to more info.

[dikman]

Don't know if this little bit of info will be of any use, but the (pistol) range scrap that I've been collecting has tested out to 12-15 BHN. It's all non-jacketed, and as far as I know pretty well all commercial stuff, as I'm not aware that many (if any) members cast their own.

I know that I'm on the bottom side of the world to you chaps, but I think it's a reasonable assumption that commercial casters here are going to use the same "recipes" that have been proven to work in competitive shooting, and that means the US, as let's be honest that's where much of the development work has been done.

I would like to find bigger slugs too, but unfortunately our laws restrict us to .38/.357 as the maximum size we can shoot (except for black powder :?). The only exception to this in cartridge guns is Single-action/Cowboy shooting - .45 cal - but the range has to be approved by the police for this and most don't meet their requirements.

[btroj]

That is useful info. Odd that you see pretty much all commercial cast. We see far more jacketed than cast. Is factory handgun ammo in OZ hard to get? Just curious, I suppose I assumed that people elsewhere shot similar "stuff" to what we shoot.
My scrap runs lower because the jacketed stuff tends to have a softer, lower Sb content, core.

[MBTcustom]

For the record, most jacketed target rifle bullets have a pure lead core. I have sectioned and tested quite a few of them.

[btroj]

Rifle ranges are a lousy place to collect range scrap anyways. Rifle bullets either dig deep or fragment too much to be useful. Handguns and shotgun slugs are where it is. Lots more lead per bullet and not much fragmenting.

I never even look at my clubs rifle range, just not worth the effort.

[runfiverun]

I do pretty well at our rifle range but we got a lot of lead flingers in this area.
I can walk the 300 yd berm in the spring and do pretty well on some big ol 45-70 type boolits.

and our 50yd berm is usually a good source for lead.
I usually hit the 1&200yd berms once-twice a year just to poke around and see what I can find.
it's usually my cast rifle stuff down there but sometimes I find other stuff [and can usually identify who the shooter was by the mold used]

our berms suck though it has a lot of rock in it..

[btroj]

Mine are heavy in clay. I like hot, dry weather. The bullets end up just below the surface layer of dust after being exposed by further shooting.

I will say that lots of winter and wet weather shooting is good. That is what brings old lead back to the surface. I really like high volume shooters too.

My enemy is steel plates. Every "tink" is another bullet that won't be recovered.

[Smoke4320]

I know. I hope lots of people got a 45 for Christmas.

not me I got a 358 :)
and yes I defend my berm .. Its my range

[dikman]

Factory ammo is available, of course, but like most things here is going to be expensive. The only reason a private citizen can own a handgun is for competitive (club) shooting, and that sort of shooting means lots of practice and lots of ammo! I'm pretty sure that many reload their own stuff, but I get the feeling that not too many actually cast their projectiles (probably because of the time involved when guys have to work for a living). Plus a lot of the lead appears to be powder coated.

The other range where I do most of my shooting has rifle and pistol, with quite a few separate ranges. I've picked up a few rifle jacketed slugs, but they're too small to be worth the effort. We shoot mostly black powder, and on that range there are some big slugs to pick up (and no jackets). Unfortunately the berms there are clay so I can't use a sieve, unlike the pistol range, so it's a slow process gathering them. But I'll still do it, I can't help myself :smile:. In fact, we have a meeting scheduled with the police for a range inspection Thursday, so I reckon I'll go for a walk and see what I can pick up while I'm there (no-one shooting then).

[Bigslug]

Bump with more data added to the original post. As before, about 2 weeks between smelt and BHN test.

[lightman]

Thanks for the info, I know how much work goes into projects like this.

[Bigslug]

New data added to original post after receiving XRF scan results from BNE.

[dbosman]

Thanks for sharing the info.

[Bigslug]

No worries Bosman. I'm still pondering what it all means, but the direction I THINK I'm heading is that since it's safe to assume that jacketed and shot are NOT going to contain any tin, we can probably segregate them, smelt, hardness-test and fiddle with the numbers on our forum alloy calculator as binary PB/SB alloy to generate a fairly precise idea of what antimony percentages we're dealing with. That's probably the best way to make decent "cookie dough" with scrounged ingredients.

As I solicited with my O.P., please pick my thinking apart in the interests of advancing the craft.

[samari46]

Our old range I used to occasionally mine the berms for spent pistol bullets. A huge portion was from the hard cast 230 gr RN that I and a lot of other shooters sent down range. Used to spread out the range scrap and pick out all the 230gr hard cast and melt them separately.The rest got melted down separately. Still have one 5 gal bucket of range scrap. Frank

[Taterhead]

This is a great thread Bigslug. I'm not much of a berm miner, but can see the utility. Coincidentally, my 11 year old daughter can't help herself and picks up any bullets she finds when we're down range attending to targets. She sees value in the recyclable materieal with no prompting from me. A natural lead hound. Yes, we strictly adhere to hand cleaning hygiene.

I've started a little collection "for later".