LEE 7.62x54R - Want to enlarge the neck sizer

[LuckyDog]

I don't have machining equipment or experience. Can someone drill/bore/ream the neck area of the FL sizer for me?

I have measured shot cases and slugged my bore. (M91/30 Mosin).
The fired case necks are 0.336 OD. The inside dimension is .316. AND the neck wall does measure at 0.010. So the math works out correct.

My bore slugs at 0.301/0.312.
I am in on the NOE Ed Harris mold (http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,617.msg4857.html#msg4857) in 0.314.

I was hoping someone with a lathe or drill press could open up the Lee die to 0.332/0.333 for me.
It currently measures 0.323+ (but not 0.324) with pin gauges.

I have the Lyman 31 M-Die to flare the mouth a little to seat the bullet. So, I am figuring that if I just size the neck down a little, I should be good to go.

[MaryB]

I use this in my dies http://leeprecision.com/ez-x-exp-303-b.html but I am seating a .312 boolit, haven't noticed any lead shavings...

[nagantguy]

That is sound advice from moss MaryB, good tool at a cheap price.

[LuckyDog]

My concern with going that way is the amount the neck is squeezed down BEFORE the expander comes back through. I don't want to over work the neck resizing.

I am looking for a way to only squeeze the neck a little. Basically, I want to squeeze the neck down to the proper diameter, then use the M-die to open the mouth to seat the bullet.

Thank you for the replies though.

[texassako]

Do you need to full length size your brass? There are several options to neck size for the larger bullets without custom machine work. I use a .303 Brit Lee collet neck die, others use Redding bushing style neck dies, and I am sure there are other options out there.

[LuckyDog]

I don't need to full length size the brass. I am using brass that has already been fired in the gun. I only want to form the neck down 0.003 - 0.004 inch diameter. The Lee die (stock) sizes it down 0.013, then wants to stretch it back out 0.005. (for a 308 boolit). Then I need to stretch it another .004 for a 314 boolit. I don't think my necks will last long doing that.

The Redding bushing style is really cool, but I'm too cheap to pay that price.

What is the collet diameter of the 303? I am looking for a neck ID of .312.
Is there any tricks needed to use the Lee 303 collet like the 308 collet?

An oversized mandrel and a Lee collet die only looks like the way I want to go. They want to know how many thousands oversize. I don't know what the standard size is. I only know what I want for a finished size. Guess a phone call needs to be made soon.

[texassako]

No tricks with the 303 collet like the washer under the .308, but it only sizes about the top 2/3 of the neck. You can use the collet die to size however you want by setting it up where it closes the collet more or less, and I have used it to size necks for .310"-.315" bullets.

[MaryB]

I am using the ammo in 2 different rifles so I full length size each time. If I sell the 91/30 I will only be using the Type 53 so could get away with only neck sizing...

Type 53 I am working on, need a scope mount yet then decide what I want for optics and if I want to send the bolt out to be bent so I can use a regular scope. Stock was split on it and I got it cheap, $100. Bore looks new!

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/maryalanab/6d9b3af4-ab8e-455e-b734-ea0dfa7ac729_zpsf8c3d6f5.jpg

[geargnasher]

You certainly have a good handle on the situation the factory FL die puts you in, and for those of us who shoot cast bullets and are looking for an answer to the problem, there IS a clear solution.... buy one of THESE, and the appropriate sizer bushings to go inside. If you want .332" OD I'd get a .330" bushing.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/897423/rcbs-neck-sizer-die-762x54mm-rimmed-russian?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Gear

[beemer]

I bought an extra collet for my 303 collet die and shortened it to size the full neck for the Russian round. Also made a larger mandrel to the proper size for my cast boolits. it is shorter than factory and doesn't decap.

Dave

[gloob]

What I did to open the neck of a sizing die is take a piece of the closest diameter brass tubing and cut a slot in it. Cut some strips of wet/dry to fit. Cut some strips of cotton gun patches to add bulk and some compression. Stick the dual layer of sandpaper and gun patch in the slot and wrap it around, clockwise. Chuck the brass tube into a hand drill.

You have to futz around to figure out how many wraps to use. And keep the sandpaper moving in/out as you work, to hopefully keep things even. And you have to keep the die and rod lined up straight, yourself. By eye and by feel. And if you go past the neck into the shoulder, you will taper/round out that area. Probably not the best solution for taking off that much material, but meh. It's an option, anyway. Considering the cost of a new FLR die, it's not the end of the world if you screw up.

[LuckyDog]

Gear, the link you posted is to an RCBS Neck Sizing Die. It, like the LEE FLSD, will squeeze the neck down before expanding back up for 0.308 or 0.311 bullets. Did you mean the Redding Die (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/428412/redding-type-s-bushing-neck-sizer-die-308-winchester?cm_vc=ProductFinding) that Larry Gibson always recomends or the RCBS Match Die (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/152054/rcbs-gold-medal-match-series-bushing-neck-sizer-die-308-winchester?cm_vc=ProductFinding)? Those are for the 308 Winchester, they don't make them for the 7.62x54R. They are about $58 then you have to buy bushings at ~$16 each. That's $74 just to start. Gets a bit expensive for me just wanting to play around. This Mosin ain't gonna be winning no bench rest matches with my eyes and it's open sites. :sad:

Dave, I wish I had the tools and knowledge to do the same as you. I don't have a lathe or the knowledge to use one. I just clamp my drill onto the bench and use sand paper.
:redneck:

I have done a bit more research this weekend. I located drawings for the 303 British (http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/303%20British.pdf), 308 Winchester (http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/308 Winchester.pdf), and the 7.62x54R (http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-ii/7-62-x-54-r-en.pdf).

I now understand why a washer is needed if using a 308W neck die. The 54R shoulder at the neck is 0.032 inches higher than the 308W. If you don't use the washer, you will either set back the neck or damage the case. I haven't tried it yet, so not sure which one will happen. Neither is good.

If one uses the 303B, one needs to remove 0.146 inches from the base of the neck sizing die to size the full length of the neck. If you don't then only the first 0.225" (~1/4") of the neck will be sized. The 54R total neck length is 0.371". The remaining 0.146 (~1/8") will not be sized. That might or might not be an advantage.

I have ordered a 308 LEE Collet die from Titan and some parts from LEE to play with. The Collet die was ~$20. I reload 308W anyway, so I figures that was the way to go for me. The mandrels are the same length for all but the 223 collet dies. LEE will make you a custom oversized mandrel for $10 or an undersized mandrel for $5. I'm guessing here that the oversized mandrel comes with a new collet sleeve. The undersized mandrel is just machined down and fits your current collet sleeve. I should know in about 4 weeks.

If you have the skill, you can buy an 8x57 decap mandrel for $4 and turn down most of its length to the diameter you want. It comes from LEE (or Titan Reloading) at 0.3205 inch diameter. I'd suggest buying an extra collet sleeve for your current collet die (308W or 303B) for $4. Drill the sleeve center out 0.321 or slightly larger to hold the mandrel.

Buy a couple extra mandrels and you can make all the different size neck sizing diameters you need. Or just let LEE machine them for you for $1 :)

It is a whole lot cheaper than the bushings from the other companies.
It sizes the Inside Diameter and not the Outside Diameter. So case wall thickness variations don't matter.
Still will most likely require belling/flaring the mouth of the cartridge for seating cast bullets easily.

any how, that is the road I am going down.

Thanks to everyone on Castboolits. Everything I know at the moment is due to the people who have posted in great site.

/LuckyDog

ETA: The Lee 7.5x55 Swiss collet is a better choice than the 303B. The shoulder is only 0.110" higher than the 54R. That is a closer fit.

[LuckyDog]

gloob, thank you for that tutorial! That was the kind of information I was looking for but couldn't find. Thanks.

And, amen to the "Considering the cost of a new FLR die, it's not the end of the world if you screw up." Only have to buy the die body, Not the whole thing!

[geargnasher]

OOPS, sorry, you're right. I thought thirty-something bucks was too cheap. The Redding die is the same concept, you just have to figure out what your time is worth, and I was going off your OP where you mentioned lack of equipment/experience. I've honed the necks out of a bunch of FL dies using a drill bit and painter's masking tape to hold a strip of emery paper. It takes a LOT of work, and I usually supplement the sandpaper with valve grinding compound and and lots of oil and use a drill press, still takes an hour or two to get 5-7 thousandths honed out. I just quit and save my pennies for RCBS GMM bushing dies now, and can use the same die body for lots of different things.

Gear

[LuckyDog]

I bought an extra collet for my 303 collet die and shortened it to size the full neck for the Russian round. Also made a larger mandrel to the proper size for my cast boolits. it is shorter than factory and doesn't decap.
Dave

Dave,

Did you need to shorten the mandrel any? Or did you not use the 303B mandrel?

Just wondering since you did shorten the collet.

[LuckyDog]

... still takes an hour or two to get 5-7 thousandths honed out. I just quit and save my pennies for RCBS GMM bushing dies now, and can use the same die body for lots of different things.

Gear

I thought it might be a LONG time to go 10 thousandths.

What's GMM?

I get my 1st custom necksizer for about $30. If the top of the mandrel measures at 0.3205, then I can order more mandrels (equivalent of a bushing) for $5 each vice the $16 for an RCBS bushing.

I'm excited to see what shows up

[Geezer in NH]

Shoot what you can load now and then see if you need improvement. For many years it worked without spending money. This is not for "new whatever results"

But what is usable and in reality for most.

Bench rest Cast Boolits is not what most of use old timer users are looking for, Just usable , affordable shooting rounds.

[LuckyDog]

Geezer,

I'm doing that now. I scored some 32-20 115gr sized at 0.313" at Riley's. I am pulling down some Bulgarian surplus for the cartridge and primer. Loading with pistol powder I have on hand. It is fun! (the pulled down J-words will go into other rifles and the powder into future loads.)

It is just so dang cold and snowy lately, that I started looking at the cheapest way to up my game. If time were money, I've spent more on this neck sizing search than I have on my entire reloading operation.

I am enjoying the challenge and hopefully I save someone expense if on a tighter budget (time & money).

[ I edited my above post to add that the 7.5x55 Swiss collet is a better fit than the 303 British.
Forgive me, but I am an engineer :p ]

[geargnasher]

GMM = Gold Medal Match, the bushing dies we talked about.

Geezer, it's not about match accuracy, it's about manipulating the brass for the different needs of cast bullets.

Gear

[vernm]

I wonder if I could grind .032" off the bottom of the collet fingers of a Lee 308 die rather than using a washer or grinding .146" from the Lee 303B Collet Die body?

[LuckyDog]

When you say "the bottom of the collet fingers", do you mean from the inside?

Do you have a lathe?

[beemer]

I used a lathe to cut .142 off the end of a 303 collet that hits the shell holder. The mandrel for the 303 was too long, it hit the bottom of the 7.62 Russian case. I turned a mandrel to .312 and polished it, ended up about .3115. The top of the mandrel can be peened over to form the lip, I just rounded the other end. The OAL of the reworked collet is 2.005.

Dave

[Motor]

LuckyDog, I have done the mod that you want to do. Why do you want to go so big? The die is made to size for a .308" bullet. You want to use a .312" This means you want to polish out .004" not .010+ If you open up your die .010"+ you will end up with zero neck tention.

I am a machinist. I used emery cloth lubricated with oil wrapped around a steel rod and a lathe. I also used a bore mic and carefully measured my progress to keep from tapering it.

So far it has worked fine. I use the optional .303 Brit expander and use a "M" die to finish the job.

Motor

[LuckyDog]

I'm jealous of you guys with lathes. I wouldn't know how to run one if it was given to me. (I'd learn, guaranteed)

Motor, The ID of the die at the neck measures 0.323", My brass measure ~0.010. When I run the round into the FL die, the ID of the case neck then becomes 0.303 maybe 0.0302. The bullet diameter I want to cast/shoot will be 0.314. That is why I was shooting for the 10 thou increase. Neck tension would be about 0.001 and I could factory crimp if I needed more than that.


I did receive the 308 collet die. Played a little with it last night. MAN, can you screw up cases in a hurry if not set up correct. The flip side is the collet die gives you great control on how far down you squeeze the neck.

[Gunor]

Does anybody want to modify the collet die parts w/.312 mandrel?

I don't have a lathe - So if I sent the parts....(I don't have the parts yet...)

Thanks

Geoff in Oregon

[Motor]

LuckyDog. I also shoot .312" jacketed bullets so I wanted to maintain the same amount of neck tension as before.

You probably could get away with .001" with cast but that's cutting it too close for me. I'd rather leave a little extra and let the "M" die handle the rest.

The whole purpose of the mod is just to reduce the amount you are working the brass.

Motor

[LuckyDog]

...The whole purpose of the mod is just to reduce the amount you are working the brass.

Motor

Absolutely.

A "friend" offered to open up the neck for me. The die is case hardened very hard. So he had to use a carbide drill cause the first drill wasn't gonna cut it.

He grabbed the wrong drill and now the neck is like 0.342" OOPS

Just for fun, I dropped a fired shell into the die to see what the neck would look like. The case wouldn't go in very far. The walls / body of the case would need a fair bit of sizing just to get to the neck. An unfired case dropped in and doesn't touch the neck. Looks like going with the collet die is a better choice.

Received an email tonight that the over-sized mandrel is on its way. If I need more tension, it will be easy enough to thin down the mandrel.

Peace

[Remiel]

I am using the ammo in 2 different rifles so I full length size each time. If I sell the 91/30 I will only be using the Type 53 so could get away with only neck sizing...

Type 53 I am working on, need a scope mount yet then decide what I want for optics and if I want to send the bolt out to be bent so I can use a regular scope. Stock was split on it and I got it cheap, $100. Bore looks new!

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/maryalanab/6d9b3af4-ab8e-455e-b734-ea0dfa7ac729_zpsf8c3d6f5.jpg

Hey Mary try the rock solid bent bolt and 3 point mount, i and putting those on my M91 project once boyds sends me my stock, if they ever get around to it anyway.

[MaryB]

Think that was the bolt I was looking at. This is a slow motion project gun that I am picking away at a piece at a time as I have extra cash.

[Motor]

Lee dies are not case hardened. You should have never tried what you wanted to do with a drill. Not even a carbide drill. I had access to carbide reamers when I did mine and still decided against it. Polishing is the way to go.

At least it was only a Lee die. I guess.

Motor

[DrBill33]

Have you considered the LEE UNIVERSAL NECK EXPANDER? I use this with all of my rifle calibers.

[Motor]

Have you considered the LEE UNIVERSAL NECK EXPANDER? I use this with all of my rifle calibers.

DrBill33, You're missing the point. The purpose is not to size down the neck more than needed in the first place. This reduces the amount the brass is "worked" the more you work the brass the shorter its useable life span will be or at the very least the more often you'll need to anneal it to avoid neck splits.

Motor

[LuckyDog]

Well, I think I have my solution. The oversized mandrel arrived. It was the mandrel only. So to use it, I will have to enlarge the collet sleeve. Using the 308 collet die with the standard mandrel and just adjusting the amount of squeeze seems to work just fine. The 1/2" washer I have slips over the rim. It is really easy to use.

Motor, I said at the start I didn't know what I was doing. :) And, yep, it is just a Lee die that didn't work for me anyways. Actually works out fine. Now I can full length size without sizing the neck if I need to.

My friend did hone or polish the neck region after drilling. It is really smooth, just 10 thousands over the original goal.

Life's good.