1911 Carried Cock And Lock

[bouncer50]

When i carry my 1911 it is cock and lock. Some carry chamber empty other i have seen other on half cock. MP use to carry chamber empty 5 rounds in the mag. In my humble opinion 1911 should be carry cock and lock. One of the fastest ways to carry for self protection. When people see mine they say do you know your gun is cock:veryconfu That from people with no gun training.

[BruceB]

100% agreement.

The 1911 is correctly carried at full cock with the safety ON.

Half-cock is UNSAFE, because it needs a careful effort to bring it to fully-cocked condition. If the hammer slips from under tone's thumb, the gun CAN fire accidentally. A blow on a half-cocked hammer can also fire the pistol.

The same type of problem applies to hammer-fully-down carry... it needs an awkward and SLOW movement to cock the hammer.

Chamber-empty requires TWO hands to get the pistol ready for action..... that is a highly-problematic situation. One might simply not have the time or the conditions to bring the gun to readiness.

Cock the gun on a loaded chamber, apply the safety, and carry it the way JM Browning intended.

[DougGuy]

The 1911 is correctly carried at full cock with the safety ON.

Half-cock is UNSAFE, because it needs a careful effort to bring it to fully-cocked condition. If the hammer slips from under tone's thumb, the gun CAN fire accidentally.

The same applies to hammer-fully-down carry... it needs an awkward and SLOW movement to cock the hammer.

Chamber-empty requires TWO hands to get the pistol ready for action..... that is a highly-problematic situation. One might simply not have the time or the conditions to bring the gun to readiness.

Cock the gun on a loaded chamber, apply the safety, and carry it the way JM Browning intended.

Try explaining that to a judge in a podunk NC court! They make it look like you are driving down the road just looking for somebody that needs shooting. I'm striker fired here on out!

[ole 5 hole group]

To carry a 1911 any other way except cocked & locked is unsafe for you - you just need to educate those judges a little or maybe the judge's law clerk would be the better one to educate a little.

[Hickok]

When I pack my Kimber 1911, it is cocked and locked.

[John Allen]

When I carry my 1911 it is cocked and locked. It kind of defeats the purpose with an empty chamber in my opinion.

[seaboltm]

To carry a 1911 any other way except cocked & locked is unsafe for you - you just need to educate those judges a little or maybe the judge's law clerk would be the better one to educate a little.

Unless it is a series 80 with the firing pick block, then the 1911 is just as safe with the hammer down. Half-cock is a NO-GO, and indeed there is no half-cock on series 80 styled 1911's.

[tigweldit]

Cocked and locked with one in the chamber. The safe, and do I dare say it, the "common sense" way to carry a 1911. This is how I have been carrying mine for almost 50 years without incident.

[Char-Gar]

When i carry my 1911 it is cock and lock. Some carry chamber empty other i have seen other on half cock. MP use to carry chamber empty 5 rounds in the mag. In my humble opinion 1911 should be carry cock and lock. One of the fastest ways to carry for self protection. When people see mine they say do you know your gun is cock:veryconfu That from people with no gun training.

Well, that raises the question "should be carried by whom?". The US military "trains" their people, but learned from bad experience that plenty of idiots go through their training and negligent discharges are far more common with a round in the chamber much less cocked and locked.

To be certain that cocked and locked is faster, but whether is is safe or not depends on who has it. Plenty of idiots get through various types of "training".

[BruceB]

the 1911 is just as safe with the hammer down.

Very true!

With the hammer down, it's as safe as carrying a brick in that holster.

However, lowering the hammer on the loaded chamber is a somewhat-risky procedure, although I've done it many, many times (Carrying the 1911 in the bush, i.e.: for NON-HUMAN predators/purposes, I usually had the hammer down on the loaded chamber.)

Likewise, having to cock the hammer in an emergency is a potentially-disastrous delaying factor.

In spite of what many latter-day "exspurts" whine about the 1911, it is a proven, reliable and efficient pistol, and well-loved by millions of shooters.... including ME!

[ole 5 hole group]

Unless it is a series 80 with the firing pick block, then the 1911 is just as safe with the hammer down. Half-cock is a NO-GO, and indeed there is no half-cock on series 80 styled 1911's.

My wording probably wasn't the best, as I was referring to his safety, relative to him carrying and getting his 1911 into action as soon as possible.

I've been around 1911's for over 60 years and was taught to always carry cocked & locked but I've also seen many people carry hammer down and some with the hammer cocked but with an empty chamber. The reason for the cocked but empty chamber is the slide is easier to rack with the hammer cocked.

If that makes them feel safer or whatever, that's fine, I just wouldn't select them to cover my 6.

[Vulcan Bob]

If the thought of cocked and locked carry makes one a bit nervous, choose a holster that has the thumb snap that goes over the back of the slide and becomes a "hammer block". JMB had it right.

[Char-Gar]

Many years ago, a 1911 or 1911A1 was accidentally dropped from a second floor catwalk onto the a concrete floor below. It had the hammer down on a loaded chamber and landed on the hammer. The inertia caused the firing pin to go forward, causing the weapon to discharge. Nobody was hurt, but that raised issues about just how safe it was to carry such a pistol with the hammer down on a loaded chamber.

I discount this concern and being left handed carried my 1911A1 with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. This was before ambi-safeties came along. I was decades into the pistol before such ambi-gizmos came along and I never could feel comfortable with them having learned to cock the pistol with my weak hand as it was presented. I found myself still wanting to do that even through it was not necessary. It took a conscious effort not to do so. No ambi-gizmos on my pistols any more.

So, I still carry my 1911 handguns with the hammer down on an empty chamber and just live with the fraction of a second extra it takes me to get it cocked. I have cocked and uncocked all kinds of handguns over the past 50 plus years with never a discharge, so I discount that as a concern. I do realize the potential for a slip is always there and pay attention to what I am doing.

[mazo kid]

Try explaining that to a judge in a podunk NC court! They make it look like you are driving down the road just looking for somebody that needs shooting. I'm striker fired here on out!
And just how does a judge KNOW that you carry cocked and locked?!

[Shooter6br]

Cocked and locked Kimber

[Rick Hodges]

I was an mp....we carried 5 rds in the magazine and empty chamber for GUARD MOUNT ONLY. After inspection and before going on duty.....One in chamber and 7 in magazine. Cocked and locked. 1971-1977

[bouncer50]

I was an mp....we carried 5 rds in the magazine and empty chamber for GUARD MOUNT ONLY. After inspection and before going on duty.....One in chamber and 7 in magazine. Cocked and locked. 1971-1977 My understand about five round in the magazine, chamber empty goes back went they had wheelguns 5 rounds in the cylinder and the hammer on a empty cylinder. Like they did on single action 45 colts. Modern wheels guns are safe fully loaded.

[prs]

And just how does a judge KNOW that you carry cocked and locked?!

The OP evidently lets other people see his as the other people notice that it is cocked and locked. Open carry and anyone can see, if they for what to look. My usual carry pieces have not lock unless you count that little trigger insert, and I do not so count.

prs

[Char-Gar]

And just how does a judge KNOW that you carry cocked and locked?!

Witness testimony.

[Love Life]

Many years ago, a 1911 or 1911A1 was accidentally dropped from a second floor catwalk onto the a concrete floor below. It had the hammer down on a loaded chamber and landed on the hammer. The inertia caused the firing pin to go forward, causing the weapon to discharge. Nobody was hurt, but that raised issues about just how safe it was to carry such a pistol with the hammer down on a loaded chamber.

I discount this concern and being left handed carried my 1911A1 with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. This was before ambi-safeties came along. I was decades into the pistol before such ambi-gizmos came along and I never could feel comfortable with them having learned to cock the pistol with my weak hand as it was presented. I found myself still wanting to do that even through it was not necessary. It took a conscious effort not to do so. No ambi-gizmos on my pistols any more.

So, I still carry my 1911 handguns with the hammer down on an empty chamber and just live with the fraction of a second extra it takes me to get it cocked. I have cocked and uncocked all kinds of handguns over the past 50 plus years with never a discharge, so I discount that as a concern. I do realize the potential for a slip is always there and pay attention to what I am doing.

Ivory on a Colt just looks sooooo right.

[Char-Gar]

Ivory on a Colt just looks sooooo right.

Yep...and Mesquite on the Norinco. The latter is my brush/knock about handgun. It has all new Wolfe springs, improved sights and a Colt barrel and long trigger. Two very fine basic handguns.

[jonp]

Try explaining that to a judge in a podunk NC court! They make it look like you are driving down the road just looking for somebody that needs shooting. I'm striker fired here on out!

Let's hear that story, Doug!

[lbaize3]

My dad was a law enforcement officer for 45 years. He carried cocked and locked. He taught me to carry cocked and locked. I carried cocked and locked in Vietnam. I carried cocked and locked as a sheriff's deputy. I carry cocked and locked as a concealed carry licensee. I would carry cocked and locked if I did not have a license. I can say that the speed and safety of carrying cocked and locked has seen me through some very difficult situations and that none of the many judges I have had contact with has had an issue with my preference.

[white eagle]

Ivory on a Colt just looks sooooo right.

that what I was thinking as well
beautiful pistola's

[warboar_21]

My opinion and it's just that, MINE!
I feel that if you are carrying any weapon for self defense purposes and it's not loaded and ready to go then you are better off carrying a can of pepper spray or maybe a rape whistle. You have demonstrated that you don't trust yourself enough with a firearm already.

I carry all my firearms whether it's striker fired or a 1911 in condition 1. If it ain't ready to use at a moments notice then it's of no use. Being that the majority of us are not performing LEO duties and carrying our sidearms on a duty belt where access is quick and unimpeded we need all the help we can get. We may have to remove covering garments with offhand or be holding items in our hands if out shopping. Taking the time to rack the slide or cock the hammer just adds time to a situation that we have may already ran out of. Not to mention when the high stress situation causes you to lose your fine motor skills, something as easy as pulling the slide back now becomes more difficult if you are able to do it at all(some people).

[RoyEllis]

JMHO, but I'd prefer to explain carrying cocked & locked in court rather than explaining to St. Peter at the Gate why I didn't carry in ready condition.....just sayin' ya know

[big bore 99]

Cocked and locked is the way John Browning designed the pistol to be. One of the specs for WW1 cavalry was to be able to draw and fire your weapon one handed while at a full gallup on the horse. It, in my opinion, is the safest way to carry one.

[Char-Gar]

Cocked and locked is the way John Browning designed the pistol to be. One of the specs for WW1 cavalry was to be able to draw and fire your weapon one handed while at a full gallup on the horse. It, in my opinion, is the safest way to carry one.

Err...The United State Cavalry (horse mounted) did not carry their 1911s cocked and locked. Rather they carried them with a full magazine and the hammer down on an empty chamber. It was a small matter to rack the slide with the hand holding the horses reins.

Where did you come with the idea that John Browning designed the pistol to be carried cocked and locked? I would like a credible citation on that as it is news to me. the US Army Small Arms Manual of 1913 required the hammer to be lowered before holstering the pistol. The troopers were not required to clear the chamber if there was one in it, but they were required to lower the hammer. In other words, the pistol was not designed to be carried cocked and locked. Much later the Army did allow cocked and locked re-holstering because to many idiots had accidental discharged lowering the hammer on an loaded chamber. If not in a ready situation, the chamber of the weapon was to be cleared. The Army did not and does not allow their soldiers to carry weapons around with rounds in the chambers unless the need to fire is emanate, "lock and load".

The Cavalry saber was issued blunt and with a hardened edge to keep the trooper from trying to sharpen it. At one time some officers felt the Trooper needed razor sharp sabers, but that fell on deaf ears and the higher ups felt Troopers with sharp sabers were be a danger to themselves, their mounts and other Trooper. To many trained idiots in uniform.

Cocked and locked is indeed the fastest way to get the pistol into action, but I demur that it is the safest way to carry one. Some years before his death Bill Jordan was jogging with his usual Colt LW Commander with one in the chamber and cocked and locked. When he got back home, he flicked off the safety and the pistol discharged. Due his long use of such weapons, it was pointed in a safe direction.

An examination of the handgun found no defective parts. The final verdict rendered by the engineering types was the discharge was caused by "tolerance stack up". All the moving parts has some slight +- tolerances and when all those tolerances stacked up in just the right way......kaboom!

Jordan wrote about this in The American Rifleman.

[Mk42gunner]

The only reason people get upset at someone else carrying a 1911 cocked and locked is they can see the hammer is back. The very same people are willing to blindly trust the safety on a concealed hammer single action auto, such as the Colt Woodsman, various Hi Standards and Ruger .22 Autos.

Speaking of stupid negligent discharges with a 1911-- Back in the mid 1980's when I was a young GMGSN, one sorta dark night, (there were lights on all over), the Army National Guard Sergeant of the Guard put a round right through the transfer shed roof on Camayan Wharf at NavMag Subic. His statement had him being careful, everybody else's had him being quick-draw McGraw.

Narrowly missed the Marine in the tower, not to mention we were getting a new roof on the T-shed at the time, the job was about half done. Guess which side the round went through? If you guessed the old roof, you were wrong.

The army wasn't supposed to have a magazine inserted at all. At the time we had somewhere around 10 million pounds of net explosive weight on the wharf.

Robert

[nagantguy]

Cocked and locked is the way it was designed and with good reason, safe fast and nothing that requires fine motor skills to get the pistol into action. Sweep back or pull up concealment garment, shirt vest coat whatever mount the pistol with the web of the hand high on the tang, sweep off slide safety with strong hand thumb, if grip is even close to.correct grip.safety is taken off draw fire as often as needed or until.slide locks back

[Char-Gar]

Spot on Charles reguardless of my perferred carry style. Very true the pistol was not orginally designed to be Locked and Cocked. It was latter allowed because of the need in military usage.
Normally on guard or other duties of a non combat (prior to the issuance of the M9 Beretta) we was instructed to have the chamber clear and hammer down. Carried one that was for payrole guard, as well as other aermed guard duties.

I think cocked and locked is best for most folks that know what they are doing. It doesn't work for me due to long left handed usage before the ami-gizmos can on the scene.

I continue to be amazed at the level of misunderstanding of the pistol and how to load for it that I read here and other places on the internet.

I just think that folks who make statements about the handgun and it's intended usage should base their comments on reality and not fantasy or absurd rumors they heard somewhere. The 1911 pistol is a wonderful weapon, however more people use it than understand it fully. After over 100 years, we should all understand it, however that is not the case.

[jonp]

The original 1911 submitted to the Army for trials by Mr. Browning did not have an external safety therefore "cocked and locked" could not have been what it was designed to do. The Army sent several ( 6?) back to him at the request of the Calvary and asked him to fit them with an external safety which he did. The pistol was re-submitted and the rest is history.

[BrianL]

I carry cocked and locked but have heard of one fellow who carried cocked, locked with an empty chamber. His thought was that it is easier to rack the slide if it was not cocking the hammer. I suppose that mechanically he is correct.

[35remington]

If he carried it with an empty chamber and the hammer back....why did he lock it?

My 1911's have small radius firing pin stops....and I mean really small radius, as in barely breaking the square edge of the bottom of the stop. They are difficult to rack with the hammer down, and most women can't manage it. These have 16# action springs and 23# mainsprings.

[BrianL]

If he carried it with an empty chamber and the hammer back....why did he lock it?



I assume that it was to prevent accidental non-firing which would defeat his purpose?:bigsmyl2:

[omphacite]

The original 1911 submitted to the Army for trials by Mr. Browning did not have an external safety therefore "cocked and locked" could not have been what it was designed to do. The Army sent several ( 6?) back to him at the request of the Calvary and asked him to fit them with an external safety which he did. The pistol was re-submitted and the rest is history.

It is interesting to look at the design changes.
131235

[BossMaverick]

Before I switched to striker fired guns, I carried my 1911 cocked and locked with one in the chamber. I always cringe when I see one carried any other way. Reactions times for a deadly threat already take way too long for the threat to be recognized, the gun to be unholstered, and for it to be pointed and fired. Taking the extra step to pull the hammer back or rack the slide WILL make an unfavorable difference.

I don't understand the fear or concerned of carrying cocked and locked. In order for the trigger to be pulled, the thumb safety has to be off and the grip safety has to be depressed. If the fear is the thumb safety being accidentally switched off, there is still the grip safety. Even if the thumb safety and grip safeties were off, something would still have to pull the trigger but almost any modern holster will prevent that by fully covering the trigger.

If the concern is the hammer slipping off the sear, the half cock position will catch it (or in the case of the series 80 with a firing pin block, the firing pin will be stopped by the firing pin block). Even so, a hammer slipping off a sear is very very very unlikely unless your gun has worn parts or if you have a questionable target hammer and sear.

If the concern is the gun firing if it is dropped, carrying with the hammer cocked or with the hammer down won't make a difference. There are no firing pin safeties on original style 1911's. The only thing keeping the firing pin from free floating is a mild spring. A drop in the right way can cause the firing pin to have enough momentum to move forward and strike the primer. For those that are anti-1911, this is the point they should be using in their arguments.

Thousands of 1911's are carried daily by law enforcement in the cocked and locked position everyday. If there were issues by doing it, it would definitely be addressed by today's overly worried administrations. As it stands, Officers failing to properly clear Glocks before takedown is probably the cause of 95% (or more) of the negligent discharges for departments (which is why so many departments have purchases bullet containment devices).

Now with all of that being said, I'd rather see a good guy carrying a 1911 with the hammer down or an empty chamber than no gun at all, so do what you feel most comfortable with so you keep carrying.

[MtGun44]

Army 1910 testing required that the pistol be ready for immediate use without
manipulating any part, like a revolver. This included the thumb safety. All the testing
by the Army was with the thumb safety disengaged, only using the grip safety.
Hammer cocked, round in the chamber, thumb safety off - and it passed all
safety tests.

This is why the grip safety was added by JMB.

The lesser lights in the field decided to do it their own way, but that has
no bearing on how it was intended to be used by the folks that specified
how it would be tested - the 1910 Army board.

I carry in condition one (L&C) every single day.

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=BossMaverick;3142
Now with all of that being said, I'd rather see a good guy carrying a 1911 with the hammer down or an empty chamber than no gun at all, so do what you feel most comfortable with so you keep carrying.[/QUOTE]

A great post, and well written throughout.

I agree entirely.

[jonp]

Army 1910 testing required that the pistol be ready for immediate use without
manipulating any part, like a revolver. This included the thumb safety. All the testing
by the Army was with the thumb safety disengaged, only using the grip safety.
Hammer cocked, round in the chamber, thumb safety off - and it passed all
safety tests.

This is why the grip safety was added by JMB.

The lesser lights in the field decided to do it their own way, but that has
no bearing on how it was intended to be used by the folks that specified
how it would be tested - the 1910 Army board.

I carry in condition one (L&C) every single day.

I'm reading conflicting accounts of the safety designs.

"Based on the short recoil principle of operation, the John M. Browning design for the US Military pistol trials was a magazine fed, single action semi-automatic pistol with both manual and grip safeties that demonstrated a level of durability, simplicity and reliability that no other pistol design of the era could match. In fact, during a 6,000 round test fired over two days in 1910 that was personally supervised by John M. Browning, his sample pistol became so hot that it was simply dunked in a pail of water to cool it for further firing. Browning’s sample reportedly passed the test with no malfunctions.

Since cavalry troops were going to be the primary combat users of the pistol, several specific design features, like the grip safety and lanyard ring, were mandated by the horse soldiers. (Nothing will turn a cavalry trooper into an infantryman faster than shooting his own horse by accident.) The Browning pistol design was formally adopted by the US Army on March 29, 1911, and thus became known officially as the Model 1911. The US Navy and US Marine Corps adopted the Browning-designed pistol in 1913."

I am certainly not an authority on the 1911 although I do like them. I think all can agree that Mr Browning was a genius.

I have carried "cocked and locked" and with a thumb strap am ok with it but I've gone to a striker plastic to be on the safe side and have a lighter everyday carry gun.

[smokeywolf]

Carried a 1911 cocked & locked for 5+ years. In addition to the comprehensive safety features designed into the pistol, the retention strap on my holster crossed over the back of the slide under the cocked hammer. Until the strap is unsnapped with the thumb and the pistol is raised at least a half inch, the hammer cannot fall. Also carried it hammer down in a shoulder holster for a couple of years. Still one of the safest pistols on the planet.

smokeywolf

[Petrol & Powder]

The only reason people get upset at someone else carrying a 1911 cocked and locked is they can see the hammer is back. The very same people are willing to blindly trust the safety on a concealed hammer single action auto, such as the Colt Woodsman, various Hi Standards and Ruger .22 Autos..............






Very true! Back when I carried a 1911 I had more than one person comment on the cocked hammer.
A little off topic weapon wise but spot on in concept - I attempted to explain to a coworker that carrying a Remington 870 in a vehicle with a live round in the chamber was not safe. His immediate reply was that it was OK because the safety was on. I attempted to explain the "safety" on that type of weapon only locked the trigger and that the hammer was held in the cocked position only by the sear. He said it didn't have a hammer!
I was tempted to pull the trigger group out to show him but he's not the most mechanically inclined person and I just instructed him that an empty chamber was a far safer mode of carry for that weapon.

[35remington]

What's interesting is those stating that they're going to "striker fired" because it is safer.

How is that so, exactly?

A Glock, for example. Striker fired. No external safety. No grip safety. Hard to assess its condition at a glance. How's that better? How's that safer?

[BK7saum]

It really surprises me that folks don't understand that the 1911is functionally the same as many other rifles, pistols, and shotguns with internal hammers. The 1911 has more safeties to prevent accidental firing also. Even some of the striker fired pistols hold the striker at full tension where only a release of the sear initiates the firing sequence.

Having an exposed hammer in no way makes the pistol unsafe.

[bobthenailer]

Although i have carried a 1911 cocked & locked for many decades in mostley in a Baker pancake thumb break holster that blocks the hammer fall and sometimes in a IWB holster , in normal use i have many time's looked down and saw the ambi saftey had moved from the locked/on postion.

[35remington]

Bob, the grip safety is still working. You're still ahead of a Glock which doesn't have one.

A Glock merely needs its trigger pulled to fire.....which is why Glocks are mandated for carry with holsters that completely cover their triggers. A 1911 must be grasped to depress the grip safety AND have the trigger pulled.

[bouncer50]

Although i have carried a 1911 cocked & locked for many decades in mostley in a Baker pancake thumb break holster that blocks the hammer fall and sometimes in a IWB holster , in normal use i have many time's looked down and saw the ambi saftey had moved from the locked/on postion. I was having the same problem on one of my 1911. I took it to a local gunsmiths that builds custom 1911 and told him about the problem. He look at me and said that easy to fix. Went i got the 1911 back the saftey had a nice snap to it up and down.

[str8wal]

I've gone to a striker plastic to be on the safe side and have a lighter everyday carry gun.

How is a striker gun safer?

[ole 5 hole group]

One thing to remember about that grip safety, move your thumb down just a tad from the slide - otherwise, you may not be able to fire that 1911 and I don't care how hard you try to press that trigger. This is mainly for people who target shoot with a high thumb and CC with their 1911's. Some target shooters will work their hand into the grip and then have their thumb ride high on the slide - without working the hand into the grip used, there is a chance you will have an "air pocket" over the grip safety. The beaver tail safety pretty much eliminates this, but some palms can still create that pocket.

When in a very stressful situation and you find yourself bringing that 1911 up with your normal grip utilize on the range, being your thumb rides the slide but you haven't worked your hand into the grip - if you squeeze that trigger and nothing happens, I can assure you that your eyes will immediately check for a stovepipe - then more trigger squeeze, then your eyes will adjust again to check for slide out of battery - then harder trigger squeeze and then you go for cover still a little confused and very cognizant of anything incoming. Some might tap & rack but any way you cut it - it's not a good thing to happen with anything incoming.

Some might call for pinning the grip safety - no need and not recommended - just understand how your 1911 functions and why.

[BruceB]

I'm a left-hander, and ambidextrous safeties are a fact of life on my 1911s. As mentioned immediately above, a strong, definite "snap" is needed to ensure that safety doesn't move by itself.

The Star "Firestar" pistols are all-steel compact carry guns, loosely based on the 1911. Their safeties, ambidextrous right out of the box, have NO spring-loaded detent to hold them in the "on" position.

I frequently found that the Firestar safety had disengaged itself while I was carrying the gun. This is unacceptable, and I no longer carry these pistols. Too bad... they have some very desirable features.

The ambi safety is forever rubbing against one's belt/body/holster or whatever, and a lefty needs to pay close attention to preventing the safety from disengaging itself. Good holster design can help.

[flyingrhino]

Doesn't matter how you carry as long as you train for how you carry. Personally I carry condition 2, hammer down on loaded chamber and practice when I'm at my range.

[Char-Gar]

Re: Handgun safety issues

1. All firearms are dangerous and any particular one is downright dangerous in the hands of a fool. Firearms safety is between the ears of the user and not in the design of the gun.

2. Gunsite, the premier combat and defensive training place, reports twice as many negligent discharges with striker fired firearms than with hammer fired firearms. I think this is pretty definitive in regards to the purported safety advantages of striker fired handguns.

3. If a fellow chooses a Glock or other striker fired handguns, keep the trigger covered when not in your hand. When it is in your hand, keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire. Of course keeping your finger off the trigger applies to all firearms.

4. I am not afraid of any handgun, no matter the design. I do have Glocks which I keep loaded with a round in the chamber and they are in holsters that cover the trigger all the time where on my belt or off. I have 1911s that I keep loaded with a round in the chamber and the hammer down. I don't feel that one design is safer than another. An idiot can be killed with either of them.

5. I don't think talking about which design is safer or whether to carry cocked and locked is safer than another is a productive conversation. See No. 1 above.

[bouncer50]

Re: Handgun safety issues

1. All firearms are dangerous and any particular one is downright dangerous in the hands of a fool. Firearms safety is between the ears of the user and not in the design of the gun.

2. Gunsite, the premier combat and defensive training place, reports twice as many negligent discharges with striker fired firearms than with hammer fired firearms. I think this is pretty definitive in regards to the purported safety advantages of striker fired handguns.

3. If a fellow chooses a Glock or other striker fired handguns, keep the trigger covered when not in your hand. When it is in your hand, keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire. Of course keeping your finger off the trigger applies to all firearms.

4. I am not afraid of any handgun, no matter the design. I do have Glocks which I keep loaded with a round in the chamber and they are in holsters that cover the trigger all the time where on my belt or off. I have 1911s that I keep loaded with a round in the chamber and the hammer down. I don't feel that one design is safer than another. An idiot can be killed with either of them.

5. I don't think talking about which design is safer or whether to carry cocked and locked is safer than another is a productive conversation. See No. 1 above. You are correct sir. My dad taught me as a young man shooting guns. Keep your finger off the trigger till your ready to fire. But it a proven fact that policeman lives have been save with a firearm with a safety on a gun. Bad guys have disarm people officer and could not fiqure out the gun has a safety on it. Just my personal opinion i like automatic with a safety on the frame or slide. That why i am not a Glock fan. Please i am not saying anything bad about Glock but it not my cup of tea.

[Char-Gar]

You are correct sir. My dad taught me as a young man shooting guns. Keep your finger off the trigger till your ready to fire. But it a proven fact that policeman lives have been save with a firearm with a safety on a gun. Bad guys have disarm people officer and could not fiqure out the gun has a safety on it. Just my personal opinion i like automatic with a safety on the frame or slide. That why i am not a Glock fan. Please i am not saying anything bad about Glock but it not my cup of tea.

All of life involves some risk. Folks get stuck by lightening in their yards on a cloudless day at times. All we can do is take reasonable precautions and go from their. We can't live our lives trying to exclude all possible negative consequences of living.

If police officers didn't carry guns, they would never be shot with their own weapons. Of course that would just increase their chances of getting killed or maimed, but it would not be by their own gun. The same could be said for the armed civilian. So, the discussion of what could happen if, can be taken to extremes.

I try to protect myself and my family from the "likely" threat and leave the "unlikely" to the fates.

I am not a fan of Glock pistols either, but own two and generally carry one or the other when I leave the house. I live on the border and the most likely threat I face is being at the wrong place at the wrong time when Cartel teams decide to kidnap or kill one of their enemies. Should such happen I would find 16 to 18 rounds, albeit 9mm HPs a needful thing.

[RKJ]

I carry a couple of different 1911's and a BHP all cocked and locked. I used to not care for it (even while knowing of all the safety's (series 80 on the 1911's) ) so one day I tried to fire them (unloaded, checked many times to verify) while trying each safety one at a time. I couldn't do it so in my mind I concluded that it was safe to carry Condition one. I haven't looked back or though much of it since.

Char, heck man it's 13 degrees outside and a ton of snow is on the ground. What else do we have to do besides talk about unproductive things? :) I suppose we could talk politics or religion, those conversations would be productive. ( Just chain yanking) :)

[robertbank]

What's interesting is those stating that they're going to "striker fired" because it is safer.

How is that so, exactly?

A Glock, for example. Striker fired. No external safety. No grip safety. Hard to assess its condition at a glance. How's that better? How's that safer?

Having experienced an unintended discharge in a holster I can tell you striker fired pistols are not safer. In my case it occurred upon drawing the gun. I know of two others occurred while holstering. In my case as I drew the gun hand ran into my, not fully swept cover garment. My hand tightened as as the trigger guard cleared the holster my finger snapped into the trigger and gun went bang. I have since modified my draw. The other tow occurred when holstering where the shooters shirt got caught in the trigger guard and the gun went boom. I just managed three holes in a pair of pants. The other fellows were not so lucky and both now have permanent limps.

For those who state the old bromide about keeping your finger off the trigger....you might say keep your trigger finger off the holster when drawing the gun. Something I do now. For those who may not understand what happened place your finger on the edge of a table. As you withdraw it add pressure. As your finger clears the table you will see it move downward. In my case when my hand caught my cover garment, my hand tightened and the rest is history.

Do I still shoot my M&P? You bet. You just have to understand the trigger safety is not full proof. The gun does have a striker block so it is drop proof. Like the Glock, an excellent design and so much nicer to carry but it can bite you.

Take Care

Bob

[Char-Gar]

RKJ.... I will cop to being a very serious fellow and have been so for as long as I have memory. At 20 years of age in college, I had a very attractive young woman tell me; "Charles, dating you is like dating a 40 year old man. Why don't you lighten up and just have fun?".

Well, she was right of course, but I did find out that many woman were drawn to the serious brooding James Dean types. So, we serious types do get to have some fun after all.. :-).

But, that aside, I do tend to take what people say as a serious expression of what they think and therefore requires a serious reply of what I think. Mea culpa!

[reddot5]

double action revolver, just pull the trigger, almost like a glock, if in a jacket or pants pocket, won't jam for second shot

[MrBFR]

I carry the 1911 cocked and locked always,and my Glocks with a round in the tube and a full mag, the way it should be done.

[Charley]

My 1911s are always carried cocked and locked. Never had an issue. Because my carry is concealed, I don't have well meaning people tell me my gun is cocked either.

[RKJ]

RKJ.... I will cop to being a very serious fellow and have been so for as long as I have memory. At 20 years of age in college, I had a very attractive young woman tell me; "Charles, dating you is like dating a 40 year old man. Why don't you lighten up and just have fun?".

Well, she was right of course, but I did find out that many woman were drawn to the serious brooding James Dean types. So, we serious types do get to have some fun after all.. :-).

But, that aside, I do tend to take what people say as a serious expression of what they think and therefore requires a serious reply of what I think. Mea culpa!

I wish I were more like the James Dean type but I find the older I get the more I'm like Walt Kowalski. Plus I never was good looking enough to be JD and I was more a "rebel without a clue" than a cause.
I agree with you about this subject, when I first saw this thread I thought "Oh great Another 1911 Cocked & locked thread". But apparently it never gets old. :) I think we're all getting cabin fever, (except maybe those in the warmer climes), I know I'm ready for Spring.

[Petrol & Powder]

What's interesting is those stating that they're going to "striker fired" because it is safer.

How is that so, exactly?

A Glock, for example. Striker fired. No external safety. No grip safety. Hard to assess its condition at a glance. How's that better? How's that safer?

I will not say safer but the Glock has a positive firing pin block that is only disengaged when the trigger is pulled.
The striker is only partially tensioned when the action is closed on a live round. Between the need to pull the trigger to fully cock the striker and the firing pin block, the gun is very safe. However, that doesn't preclude some idiot pulling the trigger and making it go bang. Char gar is correct, the best safety is between your ears and no amount of training will fix a problem there.

[35remington]

P and P......so do 1911's now with the Series 80. These have been around for 30 plus years.

Since the 1911 is only fired when gripped AND the trigger pulled can't see even without the block on the 1911 that the Glock comes ahead. I don't have 10 foot long legs and dropping my 1911 from the balcony of a second story building exactly on the muzzle seems pretty unlikely. At any likely drop distance a 1911 won't fire a round when dropped.

Can't speak for slippery handed sailors on the upper decks of warships.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm well familiar with the series 80 firing pin block. Accidental discharges are rarely a design flaw and if we're talking about a 1911 & a Glock; I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of accidental discharges are more like unintentional discharges. Both designs are fine. The flaw lies with the user. If you pull the trigger it is DESIGNED to fire! Assuming the pistols are in good operating condition, the Glock or the 1911 will NOT, "just go off".
Putting mechanical safeties on a gun does nothing to make the gun safer. The weak link is the user. I've carried both Glock's and 1911's and never feared that the gun would "just go off".
I don't wish to start a Glock v. 1911 debate, we all know how that will unfold.

Take two cars with the engines running. One with an automatic transmission and one with a manual transmission.
The steps needed to make those cars move forward are different but when one carries out those steps he/she expects the car to move forward. Just because the automatic transmission requires fewer steps to make it move forward doesn't mean the automatic is more dangerous. It is simply doing what it was designed to do and it does it when the driver carries out the correct steps.

[Bazoo]

I carry a 1911 cocked and locked. Ive carried it constantly for 3 or 4 years. I've never had a problem, and dropped it here and there. I just check the safety and go about my business. Its a series 70 springfield armory milspec.

I carry both open and concealed and have had several people ask if i new my hammer was back. I normally tell them, "I know, the safety's on."

I have a friend that carries a 1911, hammer down on a live round.

I also know a gent that carries a glock empty chambered, and unloads the magazine when leaving the gun at home.

Another guy I know carries an XD with a ball round in the chamber and hollow points in the mag. Said in case he accidentally shoots himself it wont hurt as bad.

[35remington]

Point was that I don't get the "striker fired is safer thing." Can't see how that's true.

[jsizemore]

Try explaining that to a judge in a podunk NC court! They make it look like you are driving down the road just looking for somebody that needs shooting. I'm striker fired here on out!

Every Podunk NC court judge I have met (including a couple NC Supreme Court Justices) approved of my 1911 carried cocked and locked especially when hunting between Caledonia and Odom prisons being there might be critters and such about. The ones you got to worry about are the ones inside the beltline and Durham. They want you to hug the offender that mugs you.

[Petrol & Powder]

Point was that I don't get the "striker fired is safer thing." Can't see how that's true.
I believe the way to look at it is to understand that it is as safe as opposed to safer. Again, the flaw doesn't lay with the gun.

[DougGuy]

Try explaining that to a judge in a podunk NC court! They make it look like you are driving down the road just looking for somebody that needs shooting. I'm striker fired here on out!

Let's hear that story, Doug!

I got pulled and charged with a DWI. Had a cocked and locked Commander laying on the passenger seat, to which the NC State Trooper said "Your shirt must have fallen off the seat and covered it up" and charged me with carrying concealed. Didn't have a NC permit at the time.

When it got to court, OMFG. The trooper and the DA made a circus out of themselves, and this judge, all 89yrs old of him, is scowling at me through coke bottle rim glasses like I am Charles Manson. Ordered the weapon destroyed. I tried to explain that this was typical carry mode for a 1911, which was just more words for them to twist around until they could throw them like darts.

7yrs later, there is record of it being delivered to the Sheriff's Office for disposal, but funny how there is no record of it actually being disposed of... Ya think some deputy has got it in a holster daily? Trooper got it in his safe?

Like they say, never argue with an idiot, they will knock you down to their level and beat you with experience.

[DougGuy]

All the above withstanding, I carried that Commander and all other 1911s I have ever owned, cocked and locked for many years. Come the 21st century, advances are made in materials, advances are made in design, safety features, etc, I figure why not use them. Let alone the price of a Kahr CW45 being half that of even a Commander built out of parts, a third the price of a genuine Colt.

The striker fired Kahr had several strong points that sold me. First, was the MADE IN USA tag they proudly display. Second was the weight, this pistol fully loaded with 7+1 rounds of 230gr +P hollowpoints is only 26oz. Thirdly, I could carry with one in the chamber and the striker is not preloaded so there is no energy stored in the design of the firing system that could discharge a live round short of me jumping into 500°F heat long enough to cook one off. Fourth, there is a striker block that operates independent of the trigger, not that much unlike a series 80 Colt. Fifth, the trigger pull is VERY manageable, VERY smooth, as in buttery smooth. Sixth, the trigger pull is the same for every shot, unlike many autos where the first shot is DA, and subsequent shots are single action or partially reduced length of pull due to some stored preload on the striker from previous shots. Seventh, price point. If for some reason, another NC State Trooper decided by whatever means at his disposal that he or the State of North Carolina wanted my pistol, I haven't lost near a thousand dollar investment for the second time around.

Would I have a 1911 again? Sure! How would I carry it? Cocked and locked of course!

[Petrol & Powder]

Very sound logic DougGuy. I've always been impressed with the design, materials and build quality of the Kahr.

[bouncer50]

I got pulled and charged with a DWI. Had a cocked and locked Commander laying on the passenger seat, to which the NC State Trooper said "Your shirt must have fallen off the seat and covered it up" and charged me with carrying concealed. Didn't have a NC permit at the time.

When it got to court, OMFG. The trooper and the DA made a circus out of themselves, and this judge, all 89yrs old of him, is scowling at me through coke bottle rim glasses like I am Charles Manson. Ordered the weapon destroyed. I tried to explain that this was typical carry mode for a 1911, which was just more words for them to twist around until they could throw them like darts.

7yrs later, there is record of it being delivered to the Sheriff's Office for disposal, but funny how there is no record of it actually being disposed of... Ya think some deputy has got it in a holster daily? Trooper got it in his safe?

Like they say, never argue with an idiot, they will knock you down to their level and beat you with experience. I will make this short and simple and how it done. A police officer type out a letter that he needs the gun for police work. His chief sign the letter and a Judge sign the order. A cop friend of mine got a Colt python and a AR-15 that way. But if he leaves the police department the guns are turn back in to the department.

[big bore 99]

My mistake... I read that the cavalry requested the thumb safety.

[Beau Cassidy]

Carrying on with a round up the pipe is a definitely a life or death decision....

Lets see what this fellow's choice was. Be warned. This is the real deal and not for the squeemish.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=33e_1344534208

[firefly1957]

. A 1911 should NEVER be carried at half cock . There is another thread on this here at castboolits it ran about the same as this one.
,I carry mine one in the chamber hammer down years of training with it (have had it since 1978) pulling the hammer back is not a problem next option would be cocked and locked for me. Many do not know the 1911 has an inertia firing pin with the hammer down a blow does not transfer energy to the primer.
> I ordered a new slide kit from Sarco last year and am very happy my gun is an old parts gun with mismatched frame and slide the new barrel, sights, and other parts tightened up my groups by about half.

[Char-Gar]

I got pulled and charged with a DWI. Had a cocked and locked Commander laying on the passenger seat, to which the NC State Trooper said "Your shirt must have fallen off the seat and covered it up" and charged me with carrying concealed. Didn't have a NC permit at the time.

When it got to court, OMFG. The trooper and the DA made a circus out of themselves, and this judge, all 89yrs old of him, is scowling at me through coke bottle rim glasses like I am Charles Manson. Ordered the weapon destroyed. I tried to explain that this was typical carry mode for a 1911, which was just more words for them to twist around until they could throw them like darts.

7yrs later, there is record of it being delivered to the Sheriff's Office for disposal, but funny how there is no record of it actually being disposed of... Ya think some deputy has got it in a holster daily? Trooper got it in his safe?

Like they say, never argue with an idiot, they will knock you down to their level and beat you with experience.

It amazing how folks filter their experiences and spin them in their minds. As someone very familiar with the courtroom (as a lawyer) on both sides of the issue, I can tell you with absolute certainty your problems did not stem from having the pistol cocked and locked. Your problems came from driving drunk with an illegal firearm in your vehicle. The results would have been the same no matter the carry condition of the handgun.

The age and facial expression of the Judge are of no importance. I have also been a Judge and you would have received the same treatment in my court. Folks who drive drunk and have illegal weapons with them are indeed a menace to society. Perhaps not on the Charles Manson level, but it is not a harmless or legally/socially acceptable behavior either.

I do hope you have learned something about your conduct through all of this. Blaming the judge doesn't seem like you have. I am not trying to offend you, but you laid this personal history out there and have the take the consequences of doing so.

Please note that in Texas and all other state whose laws I understand, driving drunk makes having the handgun illegal, regardless of whether it was otherwise legal or not. The laws allowing the possession, transport and carry of handguns also contain a provision this is illegal to do who while intoxicated, impaired or in an otherwise dangerous and reckless manner. Even with a CHL and the handgun covered, you do so drunk in Texas and you are charged with a violation of the handgun carry laws. We don't want drunks or drug addled people driving or staggering about with weapons on or about them. People who are no able to drink responsibly are also not responsible in other areas of their life and can't be trusted to use a weapon responsibly. A good law in my opinion.

[robertbank]

Charles you might have added his DUI will prevent him from travelling to several countries including the one to the north. If it comes up on the computer when his passport is swiped or if he is asked and is truth full. Harsh but some how we are going to have to convince folks driving and drinking is a serious offense and should be.

Take care

Bob

[Rick Hodges]

It amazing how folks filter their experiences and spin them in their minds. As someone very familiar with the courtroom (as a lawyer) on both sides of the issue, I can tell you with absolute certainty your problems did not stem from having the pistol cocked and locked. Your problems came from driving drunk with an illegal firearm in your vehicle. The results would have been the same no matter the carry condition of the handgun.

The age and facial expression of the Judge are of no importance. I have also been a Judge and you would have received the same treatment in my court. Folks who drive drunk and have illegal weapons with them are indeed a menace to society. Perhaps not on the Charles Manson level, but it is not a harmless or legally/socially acceptable behavior either.

I do hope you have learned something about your conduct through all of this. Blaming the judge doesn't seem like you have. I am not trying to offend you, but you laid this personal history out there and have the take the consequences of doing so.

I have never been arrested or charged with any crime in my life, nor has any member of my family. If I had been, I certainly would not post it on the internet like some badge of honor.

Yep....the issue was intoxication with handgun. Pretty much the same here in Michigan...plus having a loaded handgun in your veh. compartment without a valid permit would be a 5 yr. felony even if in plain view in the passenger compartment and you were as sober as the judge. It must be unloaded, cased and inaccessible.

[robertbank]

Rick were your laws drafted ahead of ours or a source for ours. Most of our firearms act was almost copied verbatim from the California codes. In addition to your restrictions handguns and other restricted firearms must be subject to a trigger lock of some kind and then placed in a locked container while being transported. Rifles and shotguns need only be out of sight or cased. We only have one Federal offense being driving with a blood alcohol level in excess of .08. The Provinces have difference driving under the influence charges which are not considered criminal offense but can result in your car being towed, temporary license suspensions and fines. From what I understand some of the laws have been tossed by the Supreme Court as they offended ones right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. I ma no lawyer but that is about as good as an explanation as I can come up with.

Take Care

Bob

[Tar Heel]

Condition 1 is the approved and sensible carry method.

[Doggonekid]

I am a believer in no such thing as a AD. There are only Negligence Discharges. I also carry my 1911's in condition one. Anyone who has discharged a firearm with out meaning too has broken one or more of the rules of gun safety. Condition one is a much quicker response. Weather or not if it is safer depends on the person carrying. I carry the defender series 80, the commander series 70, and the Gold Cup series 80, all Colts with all the bells and whistles. I agree with a earlier poster there is just something about a Colt with Ivory.

[ejcrist]

I know I'm probably going to catch flak for this, but as a general rule I carry with a mag inserted and an empty chamber. On the flip side, if I go anywhere after dark or in an area that I have even the slightest reservation about I'll carry with one in the pipe and on safe. My rationale is that I'm not a LEO on duty and I'm not on patrol in a combat zone so I'm generally not in a heightened state of awareness if something went down quickly, and I certainly don't want to make a bad decision from reacting too quick. I've heard before that carrying concealed without a round in the chamber is akin to carrying a paperweight or nothing at all but I don't necessarily agree because there are situations that escalate over enough time to give someone time to prepare and plan the best response. I am however alert when I carry with a hot sidearm which I figure I need to be for my own and others safety.

[MtGun44]

Like putting on your seat belt when you think you might need it. . . . . . . . . . .

Not something I am ever going to do, but feel free to choose your own methods.

Condition One, every single day.