Lever action 101

[prs]

I've shot lever guns most all my shooting life, but NEVER have learned to bench shoot ANY fire arm. As a kid I did some with .22 and such and some very little sort of trying with a revolver and a very brief "give'r a try" on a friend's rifle. But, I have a project on the horizon. So a question before I develop ammo for practice and then the "event". In bench shooting a lever rifle, is it SOP to single load each round instead of stuffing the tube? The difference is the need to crimp. Single feed, no crimp necessary. That is my gut feeling, no crimp.

Next, I will search Cast Boolits for a primmer on "how to", ie, how to bench shoot; the basic mechanics and tips.

prs

[TXGunNut]

I use the same loading techniques for test ammo as I do for hunting ammo, levergun ammo needs a moderate crimp and a bit of neck tension. Also front bag position is often critical, I put it just forward of the receiver on leverguns.

[prs]

Thank you.

prs

[357Mag]

PRS -
Howdy !

I single-load my Marlin M-336 XLR .35Rem, inserting a cartridge that has a seated bullet allready in-place; most times.

I am experimenting w/ use of " patched " .35" calibre swaged SPBTs, and for this I breech-seat.
More accurately... operating the lever & closing the bolt actually seats the bullet ( in this particular application ).

You can shoot un-crimped cartridges, but as a practical matter... probably not IF they load is ultimately intended for field use on live animals.


With regards,
357Mag

[bangerjim]

I shoot my levers both ways. No difference in making ammo from hand-held to bench rest shooting. Just better accuracy with the BR!!!!!

Bigger problem is to make sure your rest has clearance underneath for the lever! Buddy bought a Chicom unit on line "to save a bunch of money" instead of buying one at a LGS and the darned thing did not have enough room underneath to clear the lever and his hand! I bought one locally so I could touch & feel it and it works great...no busted levers or knuckles!

banger

[Artful]

Next, I will search Cast Boolits for a primmer on "how to", ie, how to bench shoot; the basic mechanics and tips.

prs
http://www.benchrest.com/FAQ/6.4.shtml
http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/2012/08/shooting-tips-8-mistakes-rob-rifle-accuracy
http://gunsmagazine.com/bench-basics/

So does your range have benches? Do you have Support Bags? Do you have a good spotting scope to see your shots? Do you have a mechanical rest for the rifle?

As far as loading from the magazine or single loading - really makes no difference in my experience. As far as crimping - you need to experiment some loads like no crimp, some like moderate, some like heavy crimp. I agree with putting the front rest as close to the receiver as practical. Some lever actions or single shots do require a bit of fiddling with the front wood and barrel bands for maximum accuracy.

I remember in a Guns Digest test of lever action accuracy against Bolt actions that they took off the front wood of a savage 99 and it out shot the bolt action. Paco Kelly has a good write up http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/chapter23.htm

[Gtek]

As stated above, sometimes the amount of crimp can move POI a little. Once I have confidence and confirmed cycling with a given round (hunt loads), sliding through the side doesn't bother me a bit. I sit straight up or close to and roll up off front rest with recoil reducing felt recoil greatly. I shoot a lot of straight wall with .458ish projectiles, fifty or more of those will help ensure technique compliance.

[Foto Joe]

Although I don't have a lot of experience sitting at a bench I have done quite a bit of it in the last year developing loads for a Henry 30-30, '94 Marlin 44 Mag and a Marlin 336. I found when I was loading IMR4198 without Dacron that the loads were position sensitive and my velocities were all over the map when loading via the magazine. Since then I've developed the habit of breach loading the lever guns mainly because the Henry loads the magazine via a loading slot instead of the loading gate used on Marlin. I still load the cartridges the same as if I was shooting from the magazine but it's just easier for me to reach over to the ammo box and slide one in front of the bolt than to use the magazine.

Does it make a difference in a lever gun?? Probably not, it's just personal preference.

[prs]

http://www.benchrest.com/FAQ/6.4.shtml
http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/2012/08/shooting-tips-8-mistakes-rob-rifle-accuracy
http://gunsmagazine.com/bench-basics/

So does your range have benches? Do you have Support Bags? Do you have a good spotting scope to see your shots? Do you have a mechanical rest for the rifle?

As far as loading from the magazine or single loading - really makes no difference in my experience. As far as crimping - you need to experiment some loads like no crimp, some like moderate, some like heavy crimp. I agree with putting the front rest as close to the receiver as practical. Some lever actions or single shots do require a bit of fiddling with the front wood and barrel bands for maximum accuracy.

I remember in a Guns Digest test of lever action accuracy against Bolt actions that they took off the front wood of a savage 99 and it out shot the bolt action. Paco Kelly has a good write up http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/chapter23.htm

The last time I saw the local range, it had benches, but the shooting was uphill on a about a 6 or 8 grade. Another, about an hour away has rough benches, but is level more or less. I may build a bench on my property. I have a simple lead sled type rest and it has clearance for my hand and lever.

Here is the deal. I am shooting a boolit based, in part, on one I designed for close and fast shooting with lesser quality black powder, COWW alloy, to shoot without fouling out during almost infinite shooting. An e-friend and fellow member here took that boolit design and experimented a bit at long range and did pretty well. He then took a more traditional boolit and applied some of my design characteristic to it to get better long range performance and he shot and shoots impressive groups with medium quality black powder in his boolit and an alloy at 11BHN. He sent me some of his boolits to try, but I gotta learn how to shoot in that style at least to some degree of proficiency before I can enjoy his creations. I have no fantasy of matching his talent and experience, but I want to give it a fair shake.

So, I will load my design for practice and when I feel froggy, I will jump on his. The rifle he used and mine also are Marlin 94 Cowboy Limited in 45 Colt. I will use ffg Shuetzen powder compressed, my lube, and my PRS 454-250-RF boolits to practice. I will use Swiss ffg powder compressed a bit less and SPG in his design when the time comes. My rifle has been temporarily fitted with a 10X scope for this project. Range will be 100 yards and maybe some longer if I can manage.

I intend to use fire-formed cases and maybe no sizing since his boolit is the old Colt dimension of .456", but will "neck size" if I must to get a good grip. With this project I hoped to not crimp since it is to be single shot shooting; case to boolit fit provides best ignition retention, roll crimp prevents set-back protection and is not an issue here.

Thank you all for the comments, advice, and reading links.

prs

Spotting scope? Nope. Will fashion crude wind flags and cobble a target back stand and use commercial targets. The NO cleaning of rifle during sessions, no blow tubing, just shoot as best can. I have 50 of his boolits, they are .456+ unlubed and unsized, I will lube in .457 die. My rifle slugs at a tight .452 and has NEVER tasted smokeless powder and has been shot quite a lot, but excellent bore and rifling.

[Foto Joe]

It appears that you've taught a Marlin Micro-Groove to eat Black Powder, congratulations. I gave up on my '94 44 Special/Mag some time ago. I've since determined that I was sizing boolits too small so that definitely might have had something to do with the fact that after the fifth or sixth round things started to fall apart.

One of these days I might break out the compression die and give it another try.

[prs]

Say it ain't so Joe!

;-) These are Ballard rifled 45 Colt 24" barreled Cowboy Limited Marlins; his and mine. I have never owned a micro-groove and would not choose one for BP. I think I said before, my rifle has never tasted the heathen smokeless fodder. I must admit, that scope sitting on my rifle really looks out of place and I will put my Skinner peep'n post sights back on as soon as this project is complete. Howsoever, these poor eyes of mine sure can see the 100 yard target better with the scope. lol

prs

[Foto Joe]

Interesting...I didn't think Marlin had sold a Ballard type rifle barrel since 1953. Here I thought you'd come up with some "Magic" solution to get micro-grooves to spit out real gunpowder.:cry:

[popper]

Some Marlins are MG, some aren't. I single load by dropping in the ejection port on the carrier then chamber. I remove the bell but don't really crimp. The biggest problem is the barrel is not free so I found support under the receiver vs fore stock is important to accuracy. Rounds in the tube can affect accuracy. The stock is 'high' drop so getting a good 'bag' position is difficult. Paco has a trick to free float the barrel but I'm not going there.

[Foto Joe]

Again, interesting. Not being a rifle person I've self taught on my "so called" bench rest. To date I've always rested the fore stock and been disappointed with my groups out of the Henry. Since I can out shoot the Henry (scoped) with the Marlin (iron sights) I've been blaming the low rifle stock and the scope on the Henry. My plan is to pull the scope on the Henry and shoot with the iron sights. Given that the Marlin is considerably shorter than the Henry it is possible that resting on the fore stock has been part of the problem. More testing on my part is necessary, good thing I'm unemployed for another month or so. Work gets in the way of shooting.

[w30wcf]

I've shot lever guns most all my shooting life, but NEVER have learned to bench shoot ANY fire arm. As a kid I did some with .22 and such and some very little sort of trying with a revolver and a very brief "give'r a try" on a friend's rifle. But, I have a project on the horizon. So a question before I develop ammo for practice and then the "event". In bench shooting a lever rifle, is it SOP to single load each round instead of stuffing the tube? The difference is the need to crimp. Single feed, no crimp necessary. That is my gut feeling, no crimp.

prs

Howdy prs,
With b.p. I have tried crimp and no crimp and accuracy wise I have not seen any notable difference. In the .45 Colt there is less blow back if the cartridges are not crimped so I don't crimp the b.p. rounds for it.

When testing for accuracy in my leverguns, I do the same as the pards have suggested.....placing the front rest on that portion of the forearm that is just forward of the receiver.

When testing for pure accuracy, I typically loosen the magazine screw about 1/2 turn so that it is not binding on the barrel and just load 1 cartridge at a time.

Keep the same amount of firm pressure against your shoulder for each shot. I typically use my left hand to control the rear bag for windage and elevation, thus only gripping the rifle with one hand.

I would suggest that you also test the Accurate bullet with the same powder you will be using with your bullet to get an equal comparison.
The Accurate bullet will run fine for many shots with the dirtier b.p.'s.

Have fun!
w30wcf

[prs]

w30wcf is the good e-friend behind my quest. I have been having "fun" already just thinking about it and preparing. My fun at hand is loading practice rounds with my .454-250-RF PRS boolits using fire formed brass and a .454 RCBS Cowboy internal sizer and no crimp other than just enough to close the bell to match the brass at diameter occupied by the bullet body. I have tinkered a bit with the Accurate .456 bullet in a fire formed cartridge internally sized with RCBS Cowboy .457 internal die. It is actually good and tight and should be excellent, but surely does need a bell which has to be closed. May fashion a dummy round to be sure it chambers in my rifle, w30wcf cycles them in his. The advice regarding how to grip and place rifle on bags is well noted. I will include the Schuetzen ffg in a group or two of the Accurate boolits.

prs

[prs]

The dummy round fits fine and with no crimp it feeds best with the round dropped directly into the chamber instead of laid upon the elevator or fed from mag. I will start loading practice rounds this weekend.

prs

[JSH]

One thing I have found that is over looked a lot and that is your bench platform. A picnic table is not a good bench. One needs a good solid bench to shoot from with no wobble. And for gosh sakes if building a new please don't make the seat attached to the bench.
Have a buddy that shoots from a couple of saw horse and some plywood. Then he wonders why he has issues.
Jeff

[georgerkahn]

For what it's worth, I use Redding dies to load after trimming brass with a Wilson trimmer. I then use the LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE for all my lever calibers, which include the .35 Rem. This die seems to make the perfect crimp for levers. Re this caliber (.35Rem), I have both a 1951 Ballard 336CS and a 1996 MicroGroove 336CS. My shooting rest of choice is one purveyed by Wally Brownlee in Watertown, South Dakota: the Target Shooting Rest 1200. Plenty of room for lever operation, and incredibly repeatable firing -- the #1 & #2 requisites in a rest, imho. Rest URL, fyi, is http://www.targetshooting.com/catalog/rifle-rests/model-1200-rifle-rest/
BEST!
georgerkahn

[prs]

Jeff and George, advice and link noted. I have two or three public areas with heavy benches provided. The closest one has a limited down range set-up in that it is sloping upward to a high degree, but possibly a place to practice mechanics before the longer drive(s) to more level ranges. If I get "addicted:, I will build here; but I tend to keep too many irons in the fire.

One change in my plans has occurred in the past few minutes. I just came in from my out building where my powder is stored. I thought I had a case of Swiss plus most of a case of Shuetzen. What I found is about a half case of Shuetzen, two cans of Elephant, and NO Swiss. No foul play expected, it has been a few years since I tapped the supplies (had several big irons in the fire) and I just lost track. I used to shoot enough to order a case or two per year. Recently been working with smokeless propellant. So, ALL of my rounds in this adventure will be powered by Shuetzen FFG, which actually simplifies things.

prs

[cajun shooter]

I'm not trying to be the know it all on this subject but I was lucky enough to attend the FBI Sniper School while I was a Firearms Instructor and Armorer in law enforcement. I also had good early training by some good Drill Sergeants while in my Basic and AIT training in 65.
There are many steps that must be repeated each and every time that trigger is touched. The first thing is why try to develop an accuracy load using a middle of the field BP? The next thing is that non crimped round is not going to perform the same as the hunting loads that are stuffed in that magazine. A difference of several inches could be the end result. I would either test with all the given standards or wait until I had my ducks in a row.
At this time, you are in line for comparing oranges and apples.
If you ever have some extra time, read some of the material by your well known rifle shooters like David Tubbs. If you are after just an accurate hunting load then bench shooting is not the correct approach. Shoot the same way and position that the intended use is going to be.

Good Luck David

[prs]

Hi Cajun!

No, the goal has nothing to do with hunting. Just doing this for experience. I am sure I will make mistakes, and would not expect to make bug holes as a beginner. I am using what I have because I have it. The mediocre powder is what these two boolit designs (the PRS and w30wcf's .45 accurate "just enough lube" were based around. The tips on skills and mechanics are being soaked in, but not yet put in practice. I will do as best I can, knowing my limitations, maybe even underestimating my ability. I have never had any trouble making clean head shots on squirrels and such with a lever .22. Just have very limited to practically NO experience at bench shooting. I am not trying to set a world record, just getting a feel for what it is "to see the elephant". Right now, flooding, freezing, and SNOW are really stalling my progress. Then March winds will blow willy-nilly. At this rate, it may be June before a pleasant, calm early weekend morning presents. Thank you for your help. I really appreciate it! Sound to me you are a true expert! I am a rank tenderfoot at this particular adventure.

PigeonRoost Slim