45-70 Hodgdon load question

[Fatdaddy]

Today being Presidents Day, I took the day off to celebrate.
I cleaned and trimmed all the 45-70 brass that I had on hand to load some 300gr pills for the 1895 Marlin.
When I pulled the load data from Hodgdon's site they had 3 categories for the 45-70:
Trapdoor, Lever Action and Modern rifle.
I selected a starting load from the Lever Action section and worked up to some teeth shattering loads that almost got some blood from my eyebrow.
I was sitting here tonight looking at the load data again and selected the load data for Modern Rifles, just being curious as to how much higher the loads were over the lever action loads.
To my surprise the max data for the Modern Rifle loads for a 300gr bullet was lower (53gr of IMR4198) than the listed start data (53.7gr IMR4198)for the lever action data.
The COL is longer for the Modern rifle loads but something just doesn't seem to make sense.
Maybe I just assumed the load data for the modern rifles would have a higher charge/velocity listed.

[Gunlaker]

I just had a look in my paper copy of their data from 2011. Mine shows a max of 58.5 gr for modern rifles and IMR-4198 using the 300gr Sierra.Those loads at pretty stout. I've shot some of the hotter loads for the 400gr Speer bullet out of my Ruger #1 and they definitely get your attention :-).Chris.

[TXGunNut]

All I can say is that the round and my rifle are capable of much more than I'm willing to endure. I lose interest pretty fast as velocities pass 1800fps. Critters I hunt don't need that much killing.

[fouronesix]

Always a good idea to cross-reference load data against more than one source- the more the better.

I just looked at the 45-70 Lyman data which is also broken down by three categories- Trapdoor, Win 1886 and Marlin 1895, Ruger #1 and #3.

Max load for Win 86 and Marl 95- IMR 4198- 41 gr- 300 gr Jbullet--- 24,800 CUP

Max load for Ruger #1 and #3--- IMR 4198- 55 gr- 300 gr Jbullet--- 35,200 CUP

[Artful]

Always a good idea to cross-reference load data against more than one source- the more the better.
+1
Always remember the reload books are just a few experiences with a few rifles - sometimes just one universal receiver - That's why different reloading books don't agree with each other. An that's why you cross reference.

[tdoyka]

i use a handi rifle that can do lever action loads. i don't!!! i use the trapdoor load section. h4198 is what i use. over 1500fps is not good for me and my stroke-abled shoulder!!!

[rr2241tx]

Maybe it's just me but 4198 of either flavor at any useful muzzle velocity in a 45-70 is just volunteering for a whipping. A caseful of FFg compressed enough to seat a soft alloy plain base boolit will get the job done.

[smokeywolf]

I've gotten real good results with Unique in a Trapdoor. Prefer 3031 in the model '86. 4198 does seem to deliver a slightly more violent recoil; faster burn and maybe faster ignition.

[jednorris]

I tried 300 gr. Valiant bullets in my 1875 Sharps and for the life of me, I could not get them to shoot accurately. I moved to 405s and they stabilized considerably better. My manuals stated I could shoot up to 44.0 Gr. of I.M.R. 3031 but the recoil was excessive. I settled on 34.0 gr. of 3031 and my 405s can keep a 2.5 M.O.A. group at 200.

[fouronesix]

Rel 7, 3031 and 4198 are common powders for med-high performance 45-70 loads. 4759 and 5744 work much better for milder, Trapdoor level loads.

[Fatdaddy]

I started with the recommended 53.7gr and worked up to 55gr and still had no pressure signs...
here's the load page from Hodgdon's site:
http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv297/lowangz/45-70Loads_zps2fdbac95.jpg (http://s693.photobucket.com/user/lowangz/media/45-70Loads_zps2fdbac95.jpg.html)
Looking at my Lee Manual, it lists 41.2gr as max for a 300gr. bullet.
It's spooky that there's that much difference...

[DLCTEX]

I let a friend shoot one of my RD 420 gr. warm loads in our guide gun. After that one I couldn't get him to try 340 gr. mild loads. He was done.

[Rick Hodges]

I tried H 4198 in my 45-70....violent recoil and muzzle flash way out of proportion to velocity. I stopped using it. I like H322 for 1880 fps with a 300 gr. jacketed bullet in my Guide Gun.

[bikerbeans]

if you are going to run stiff loads in your 1895 I suggest you make sure the brass you are using is the same brand used to generate the load data. The case capacity of 45-70 brass varies a lot between the different manufacturers.

BB

[groovy mike]

I use H322 for my plinker loads and 3031 for hunting loads - For what it is worth my olf V2 Hornady manual suggests 34.7 grains as a max load of 4198 for a 350 grain bullet at 1500 fps. No load for 4198 with a 300 grain bullet is listed but 53 grains would be far far above anything on teh 350 grain chart.

[Fatdaddy]

I wonder where the numbers listed came from and why they seem so disproportional to at least a few other sources....
I will probably pull the last 10 or so I have loaded and revisit with the start data in my Lee 2nd edition.
This should be plenty for the 180lb white tail and paper targets in my area.:-o

[fouronesix]

The recent (last 2-3 editions) Lyman manuals have fairly good data that does separate the 3 load classes for 45-70. Nothing wrong with looking for used load manuals by various companies. I have a pile of them dating way back. Every time I see a load manual in used condition I try to grab it if a decent price. Plus not every manual by various companies will or can have all bullets or powders. The very nature of such manuals kind of limits how much they can test or publish or wish to.

For example: can't expect Speer to publish a bunch of data for bullets they don't make nor can Hodgdon be expected to publish data for all their powder competitors. The little Loadbooks series are very good and they are pretty cheap even when new- about 6.50 ea from Midway :)

[Fatdaddy]

Being as I wasn't having any pressure signs, I put a few over the Chrony today: 2227 fps and 2226 fps.

[osteodoc08]

I personally like a healthy dose of Varget behind a 405gr WFNGC design. 405gr at 1750fps will put a hurtin on both ends. Shoots 1 to 1-1/2" groups with a 2x7 scope at 100yds all day long too. It's good stuff.

[M-Tecs]

For the 45-70 Govt SAAMI only has one spec. That is 28,000 CUP and it is considered safe for the Trapdoors. http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf

The various load levels are truly just recommendations as to what the loading data developers feel is safe for that type of firearm. Opinions vary widely. Lyman lists 18,000 as max for TD's yet some others go up to the 28,000 SAAMI for TD's. On the high end for new 1895 some data goes up to 45,000 for 45-70 1895's.


I am more comfortable at 40,000 or under in lever guns. Interesting read here http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm

[Fatdaddy]

I ran a few factory loaded Winchester 300gr. over the Chrony and they ran around 1650 fps.

[Fatdaddy]

..I am more comfortable at 40,000 or under in lever guns. Interesting read here http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm

Very interesting read.
I think I can see the writing on the wall....
I'll be pulling the remainder just in case.
Thanks for that M-Tecs ;-)

[MBTcustom]

The later Marlin 1895 rifles can take more sauce than you can (generally speaking. Don't push your luck).
Not that I recommend doing this (I do not) but I ran 350 grain jacketed through a chronograph at 2400 FPS. I can easily shoot 70 rounds of 300 Win Mag in one sitting from a Remington BDL, but those hot 45-70 rounds finished me after five. Never again.

Meanwhile, I find that a 400 grain cast bullet pooping along at a stagnate 1500 FPS to be enough penetration and knockdown power to drop any animal in the world without even getting excited about it. It just rolls over and hits the snooze button.

Shooting Marlin big bore is a different shooting philosophy. Rather than depending on speed, it depends on mass and the load data reflects that. With modern rifles in smaller calibers, the weight and design of the rifle has nothing to do with it. It's not bullet vs. rifle design, it's bullet design vs. speed. For many modern shooters, it's all too easy to skip to the page of the book that deals with velocity and ballistic coefficient, because bullet mass and rifle shape do not play a role atall.

A man with a Marlin 1895 is thinking along a whole different set of parameters. For him, it's all about the rifle and the big honking bullets it dispenses at an alarming rate of fire. What I have found, is that the straight stocked rifle is much more pleasant to shoot than the pistol grip stock. It's quicker to the shoulder, and it's quicker to return to line of sight than the pistol grip stocks. Add to that the fact that it cycles 400 grain projectiles so fast, you can empty the gun of all five shots in a matter of seconds, while making hits on target. Member Milkman and member lars45 have been to the range with me when I "had a little fun" with my guide gun, and they can attest to the speed with which I can deposit 6 pounds of lead in the berm.

The Marlin 45-70 guide gun is second in my top five list of the most powerful shoulder fired sporting rifles in the world, considering weight vs. downrange destruction potential (Trumped only by a Springfield M1A converted to 358 Winchester). I have extensively tested these systems and found the 45-70 to be the most forgiving and versatile rifle for the cast booliteer, and really the most useful for hunting dangerous North American game.
The only thing I have found that will stop a 405 grain bullet is about 3-4 feet of berm dirt. At only 1500 FPS, it has blown confetti out of a tightly bound stack of four soaking wet phone books. It has passed right through a large round hay bail (it was wet also) from any direction and still have enough energy to kill game on the other side. It has blown chunks out the opposite side of a 12" diameter telephone pole (not in use, but acquired from the local power company).

Of course, I realize this has nothing to do with the discrepancy in the load manuals, but the above is why I never gave it a second thought. I just look for the loads that give me the best results at a speed that isn't just adding insult to injury, and for me, 1500 FPS is all I want, and far more than I would ever need.

[upr45]

Lots of good information has already been passed on, the most unforgiving issue in Marlin 1895's is OAL. Keep it under 2.55", nose profile may shorten that, and do test feed from the tube. In 300gr pills the oal is usually not an issue(if you crimp at the crimp grove). The 45-70 is usually my first choice as I hunt deer in thick cover. I load 405gr's to 1600-1700 fps and find recoil quite manageable. Several medium burning powders will get you there. The blunt force trauma it puts on a critter is incredible! I have taken 405's to about 2000 fps and nearly lost fillings in the process. I very much prefer the tamer loads in the 405 gr range for hunting. If you want to see an amazing fireball try H335 with your 300 gr pills.

[lar45]

Being as I wasn't having any pressure signs, I put a few over the Chrony today: 2227 fps and 2226 fps.
Just my opinion, but I don't think that you would get any pressure sings until you were atleast double the listed pressures for the Marlin.
Just my 2 cents

[BruceB]

Just to inject a sense of proportion for the more-daring among us:

The .404 Jeffery cartridge made its STERLING record on African BIG game with a 400-grain bullet at..... 2125 feet per second. I chronographed Kynoch factory loads in my .404, and that is precisely the speed they delivered.

There's only a bullet-diameter difference of .423" to .458", after all.... not very much.

Now, do we REALLY need .404 Jeffery ballistics for deer,(elephant/rhino/buffalo loads) especially when fired from a seven-pound lever gun?

I didn't think so.....

[EDG]

>>>The Marlin has basically three small pieces of metal holding that bolt in place behind the cartridge, maybe 3/8" thick at the widest point and thinning dramatically behind the forward "lug" on the lever. I guess I can include the pivot screw that holds the lever in position as part of the overall support equation. <<<

The guy that wrote the article was somewhat out to lunch on the 336.
He neglected the .307, .356 and .375 rounds that are all high pressure and were chambered in the 336.

He seems to think this is all that keeps a 336 bolt in place.

131675

Most importantly he does not recognize that the bolt is not locked by the lever. The bolt raises a locking block at the rear of the action. The poor old writer seems to think every thing is held together by the lever cross screw.

Note the locking block that engages the back end of the bolt.

131676

[fouronesix]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Fatdaddy http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3148198#post3148198)
Being as I wasn't having any pressure signs, I put a few over the Chrony today: 2227 fps and 2226 fps.


Lar45 "Just my opinion, but I don't think that you would get any pressure sings until you were atleast double the listed pressures.Just my 2 cents"

Whoa!… Unless I'm missing something here- better re-check that statement and the numbers. The data I'm looking at for 45-70, 300 gr Jbullet loads indicates the top end max loads for the Ruger #1,#3 class is about 2200-2300 fps with pressures ranging 35,000-39,000 CUP. Doubling those pressures would be 70,000-78,000 CUP.

[lar45]

You are exactaly right, my post was not specific enough.
I was thinking of the Marlin 1895.
I lost my old Speer #13 manual, so I'm just going off of memory(which isn't the best, :)
When do you get flattened rifle primers? 65k+ psi ? Or worse, cratered primers?
The 270win has a max of 65k, so shouldn't flattened primers be more than that?
when does the head of the case show signs of pressure, the head visibly flowing into the bolt face anywhere?, 75-80K psi ?
If any of the above is not correct, please feel free to post the corrected info. As I'm just going off of memory here.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Fatdaddy http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3148198#post3148198)
Being as I wasn't having any pressure signs, I put a few over the Chrony today: 2227 fps and 2226 fps.


Lar45 "Just my opinion, but I don't think that you would get any pressure sings until you were atleast double the listed pressures.Just my 2 cents"

Whoa!… Unless I'm missing something here- better re-check that statement and the numbers. The data I'm looking at for 45-70, 300 gr Jbullet loads indicates the top end max loads for the Ruger #1,#3 class is about 2200-2300 fps with pressures ranging 35,000-39,000 CUP. Doubling those pressures would be 70,000-78,000 CUP.

[Duckiller]

I would call Hodgdon and discuss these loads and the apparent inconsistency. There 2015 magazine manual lists the same loads. Remember trapdoor loads in black powder killed a lot of buffalos. Are you hunting something bigger than a buffalo? For your assistance the 49th Lyman manual lists for 1895 300gr :Start 36.0 gr @17000psi for1688fps Max 41.0 gr @24800psi for 1780fps. Ruger #1 , same bullet: start 49.0 gr @24000psi for 2047fps, max 55.0 gr @35200psi for 2347fps. All with IMR 4198. Pulling these loads and starting over is not a bad idea. For what it is worth I tend to load my 1895 t0 starting trap door loads to minimize recoil and have a good time putting holes in paper.

[fouronesix]

Here's the data from Lyman 48th and 49th editions. Warning and maximum load section for 45-70, 300 gr Jbullets and only for level 3 guns including Ruger #1 & #3 and suitable Mauser bolt guns.

[CPL Lou]

Just to understand how much pressure the 1895 action can handle, look up .450 Marlin pressure data.
Also, look up the pressure levels the .444 Marlin and .30-30 Win pressure levels.
Just a thought.

CPL Lou

[M-Tecs]

The 450 Marlin is 43,500. Bolt thrust isn't the real issue with the large cartridges but the thin barrel wall becomes an issue. Most of the pics of blown 1895's show the bottom of the barrel blown out.

The MAP for the .375 Winchester is 52,000 PSI.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

[lar45]

I have not torn one apart, but to what I understand, the 450 has V type threads, where the 45-70 has the older Acme style, or square, threads which are deeper and might be why the actions blow out the bottom?



The 450 Marlin is 43,500. Bolt thrust isn't the real issue with the large cartridges but the thin barrel wall becomes an issue. Most of the pics of blown 1895's show the bottom of the barrel blown out.

The MAP for the .375 Winchester is 52,000 PSI.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

[fouronesix]

Who knows when any one gun or design will fail or sustain some damage. Pushing the ragged edge of the design, in this case the basic Marlin 95 that's rated to a more or less "safe" max of about the oft quoted 40,000 pressure (many sources actually list the "safe" max closer to 30,000 for the W86 and M95 lever actions), seems popular in the last few years.

Pushing that ragged edge simply invites one of the three possibilities for failure or damage- the case, the chamber or the action- take your pick. I think it boils down to moments of testosterone and bragging rights…. "my 45-70 is just as powerful as your 458 Win Mag"…. etc. Or see, my 45-70 will shoot through so many inches or feet of material (fill in the blank_________) wood, dirt pile, water jugs, telephone pole, junk car body, "any animal on the planet", and so on supported by any number of quaint anecdotes.

[Fatdaddy]

Who knows when any one gun or design will fail or sustain some damage. Pushing the ragged edge of the design, in this case the basic Marlin 95 that's rated to a more or less "safe" max of about the oft quoted 40,000 pressure (many sources actually list the "safe" max closer to 30,000 for the W86 and M95 lever actions), seems popular in the last few years.

Pushing that ragged edge simply invites one of the three possibilities for failure or damage- the case, the chamber or the action- take your pick. I think it boils down to moments of testosterone and bragging rights…. "my 45-70 is just as powerful as your 458 Win Mag"…. etc. Or see, my 45-70 will shoot through so many inches or feet of material (fill in the blank_________) wood, dirt pile, water jugs, telephone pole, junk car body, "any animal on the planet", and so on supported by any number of quaint anecdotes.

I have a couple of reloading manuals to draw from but I have a computer out in the "Boolit Hut / CRB Land" that I generally just pull load data from Hodgdon's site. I just naturally started in the "Lever Gun" section for working up a load.
It wasn't until after I'd worked up a load and was done shooting when I discovered the inconsistent (questionable) data.
I shot 6-8 of these with 55gr of I4198 and didn't have any issues but probably won't shoot anything even close to that hot anymore.
I don't load anything to max loads recommended to give some headroom.
It gets to a point to where you're getting diminished returns in FPS/charge weight anyway not to mention most accuracy is usually found somewhere between min and max.

[JesterGrin_1]

I am sorry but I have to restate that you will not see pressure signs in a 45-70 Government chambered in a Marlin 1895 until it is far above the capabilities of the Marlin 1895 action. One does not need to push any 45-70 Government load in the Marlin 1895 to those extremes for good performance as mentioned by good members here. Also you will not enjoy the recoil that will be generated by said rounds.

I worked with my Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 over a pretty good range of bullet weights in my own humble opinion both cast and jacketed. And I will say that I found the accuracy was not nearly as good with a 300Gr jacketed round next to a Hornady 350Gr Jacketed Round nose. I felt the reason for this is the simple fact that the 300Gr bullet is almost square compared to the bore size. For my type of hunting in South TEXAS I chose the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC and the Hornady 350Gr RN. I also used the Ranch Dog 425GR RNFP/GC to good effect but it is way more bullet weight than I need for what I do.

As for speed I will state that I was using a load with H-322 in both the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC and the Hornady 350Gr Round Nose that was going around 1950 FPS or so. And will have to say they are not fun loads to shoot off of a bench. And I had to go with a Scout Scope set up as not to draw blood on both ends as in if one is not careful you could get a nasty scope eye with a regular mounted scope. The Hornady 350Gr Round Nose with a scope would give me 3/4" groups at 100 yards while the Ranch Dog 350GR RNFP/GC will give me better groups than that at 100 yards.

I slowed the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC way down with 15.0Gr of Unique and found that they are still very accurate at 100 yards and fun to shoot but I have yet to take any game with said load. I hope to take a Hog soon with this load. :)

[1trapper]

Has anyone developed a load for an "original" (as in old) Win. .45-70, 1:20 twist, .457 bore? I've been working on it but would sure appreciate some input.

[tdoyka]

Hodgdon Powder Company
Cartridge Load Recipe Report - 1/27/2015


45-70 Government (Trapdoor Rifles)*


Load Type:
Rifle
Powder:
H4198


BW:
405








Cartridge Information




Case:
Winchester
Barrel Length:
24"


Twist:
1:20"
Trim Length:
2.100"


Primer:
CCI 200, Large Rifle









45-70 Government (Trapdoor Rifles)*
Cartridge Load Data
Starting Loads

Maximum Loads



Bullet Weight (Gr.)
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure


405 GR. CAST LFP
H4198
.458"
2.540"
27.0
1251
14,200 CUP
31.0
1459
17,100 CUP





45-70 Government (Trapdoor Rifles)*
Cartridge Load Data
Starting Loads

Maximum Loads



Bullet Weight (Gr.)
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure


405 GR. CAST LFP
IMR 4198
.458"
2.540"
30.0
1370
17,000 CUP
32.0
1462
19,000 CUP

[1trapper]

OK...thank you. Guess that's a good place to start. That would be Group I loading data and since the Win. 1886 sits in Group II I can probably goose the loads up a bit.

[JFE]

Straight wall cases dont exhibit the same signs of pressure that we generally get with bottleneck cases, so IMO it is best to use pressure tested data to keep safe and obviously cross check the data in case of errors. There are plenty of instances where Marlin 1895's have been damaged through what appear to be reloading mishaps. The ones you see on the net always seem to blow up at the front of the receiver where the receiver wall is the thinnest, ie the area between the bottom of the barrel and the top of the magazine gives way here. The 450M not only uses V threads, but the case head fits in a smaller mag tube and the cut outs for the loading and ejection ports are smaller, which leaves more metal in critical areas compared to those chambered in 45/70.

If you review pressure tested 45/70 load data it becomes clear that there is little additional performance to be gained by bumping pressures up 10-15K psi (maybe 100-200 fps). Personally in such a light rifle like the 95 Marlin, loads developing around 30k pressures provide all the performance (and recoil) I need in a package like this (400 gr at 1850 fps).