Cheaper Than Dirt Price Gouging Again

[texaswoodworker]

Not one to shy away from trying to make a profit from a bad situation, Cheaper Than Dirt is once again putting money before their customers. With the potential ban of the popular and common M855 ball ammunition that many shooters use in their AR-15s looming, Cheaper Than Dirt has decided to capitalize on this blatant infringement on the Second Amendment. Walmart sells this round in 420rd bulk packs for $175, or roughly $0.42 per round. Sportsman's Guide had 200rd packs for $0.36 a round. CTD is trying to rip off it's customers by raising the price to $0.94 per round.

http://www.molonlabeforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5384&d=1424107461

Do not allow them to get away with this. We as a shooting community must take a stand against businesses who do this. If you'll recall, this is not the first time CTD has attempted this sort of thing (pics of their past transgressions at end of post). They even went as far as taking all their AR-15 and other modern sporting rifles off the shelf just to please the anti gunners after the Sandy Hook tragedy. With so many reputable businesses that put their customers before profit such as Midway USA, MidSouth Shooter's Supply, and Graf and Sons, why support a business that has clearly shown that they don't care about you, just your money? Send them an email, and let them know you will no longer support their business. Make sure they know exactly why. Feel free to post this on every gunforum you come across. Post it on facebook. Tell your family and friends. CTD is NOT a friend of the shooting community.

While your at it, let the BATFE know that you do not support the ban on M855 and that what they are wanting to do is unconstitutional.

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_proj ectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purpos es.pdf


How to comment – from the BATFE

ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on or before March 16, 2015. ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments. Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method):

ATF email: APAComments@atf.gov

Fax: (202) 648-9741.

Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Denise Brown, Enforcement Programs and Services, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, U.S. Department of Justice, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226; telephone: (202) 648-7070.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-n6_FYiu8DAY/UPc1qMDkYXI/AAAAAAAAAps/vBOb1Ff0dEg/s1600/Screen+shot+2013-01-16+at+6.19.02+PM.png

http://www.gunsandammo.info/wp-content/uploads/prices-ctd.jpg

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RTo7LYsjPSU/maxresdefault.jpg

[C. Latch]

Actually, you're as wrong as you can be. They are not in any way trying to rip off their customers. They are engaging in an ancient practice, unknown to many americans, called 'capitalism'.

They are helping to ensure maximum efficiency in distributing the limited supply of a product (M855 ammo) to those who need in the most - as demonstrated by their willingness to pay the most for it.

I wish more Americans had been exposed to this weird but wonderful system called Capitalism. They'd love it if we could ever wean them off of the socialism they have came to love and depend on.

[Fishman]

C. Latch, we have disagreed in the past, but I agree with you here. Don't like their prices? Shop somewhere else.

[texaswoodworker]

Actually, you're as wrong as you can be. They are not in any way trying to rip off their customers. They are engaging in an ancient practice, unknown to many americans, called 'capitalism'.

They are helping to ensure maximum efficiency in distributing the limited supply of a product (M855 ammo) to those who need in the most - as demonstrated by their willingness to pay the most for it.

I wish more Americans had been exposed to this weird but wonderful system called Capitalism. They'd love it if we could ever wean them off of the socialism they have came to love and depend on.

The Capitalism argument doesn't work for two reasons.

1. I'm not arguing against their right to charge what they want. They every right to, just as we have every right to tell them they'll loose customers because of it. THAT'S called Capitalism and I fully support it.

2. M855 ammo is still available at a decent price.

$0.45 a round

http://www.venturamunitions.com/ventura-tactical-5-56-223-62gr-ss109-m855-ammo-250-rounds/

They are not helping to ensure the people who need the ammo the most gets it, they are just trying to be greedy and line their pockets while more reputable business such as Midway USA will keep the price the same as it was. Limiting the amount of ammo someone could buy from their store would help distribute it, not charging double for it.

[texaswoodworker]

C. Latch, we have disagreed in the past, but I agree with you here. Don't like their prices? Shop somewhere else.

Is that not the entire point of my post?

[dragon813gt]

This is their normal operating procedure. It's not gouging because it's a luxury item. You don't need it. If you don't like the price don't buy.

Here is the side no one thinks about. How much is CTD going to pay for a resupply of this ammo? It isn't going to be rock bottom prices like we've seen recently. They are going to have to pay more.

I'm not defending their business practices as I don't hide the fact that I hate them. But they can charge whatever they want and you can choose to buy or not. I have no issue w/ informing people of their practices. But they aren't gouging. This isn't a gallon of water after a hurricane.

[C. Latch]

Is that not the entire point of my post?


What you miss it that soon - very soon - 'somewhere else' - will be out of ammo. CTD will still be able to serve customers.

[texaswoodworker]

This is their normal operating procedure. It's not gouging because it's a luxury item. You don't need it. If you don't like the price don't buy.

Here is the side no one thinks about. How much is CTD going to pay for a resupply of this ammo? It isn't going to be rock bottom prices like we've seen recently. They are going to have to pay more.

I'm not defending their business practices as I don't hide the fact that I hate them. But they can charge whatever they want and you can choose to buy or not. I have no issue w/ informing people of their practices. But they aren't gouging. This isn't a gallon of water after a hurricane.

Actually, they are price gouging. An item doesn't have to be a necessity for it to be price gouging. A natural disaster or other tragedy doesn't have to occur either. I looked at several definitions of "price gouging". Most said that it can typically happen during such an event, but none stated it had to happen during such an event. This is most complete one I could find.


Price gouging is loosely defined as charging a price that is higher than normal or fair, usually in times of natural disaster or other crisis. More specifically, price gouging can be thought of as increases in price due to temporary increases in demand (http://economics.about.com/od/demand-and-the-demand-curve/Demand-And-The-Demand-Curve.htm) rather than increases in suppliers' costs (i.e. supply (http://economics.about.com/od/supply-and-the-supply-curve/Supply-And-The-Supply-Curve.htm)).

Price gouging is typically thought of as immoral, and, as such, price gouging is explicitly illegal in many jurisdictions. It's important to understand, however, that this concept of price gouging results from what is generally considered to be an efficient market outcome. Let's see why this is, and also why price gouging might be problematic nonetheless.



But seriously, are people just going to nit pick my post over pointless semantics?


I have no issue w/ informing people of their practices.

Which is all I'm wanting to do.

[texaswoodworker]

What you miss it that soon - very soon - 'somewhere else' - will be out of ammo. CTD will still be able to serve customers.

And I sincerely hope that no buys that ammo from them. Make them learn a lesson in treating their customers with respect instead of as money pits. Like I said, I'm gong to inform everyone I can about their actions and tell them not to support them. Whether they pay those kinds of prices is up to them. Other businesses go above and beyond for their customers, and they deserve our business far more.

[btroj]

It is only gouging if people pathe price. The fair market price is whatever people are willing to pay. If people pay that price then it is a fair market pice.

If people pay more tha.n they need to because they fail to shop around is it the fault of the place they purchased from? CTD is in business to make money. They are not providing some sort of public service, they are in business.

As for getting the ammo to those who need it most, what? Is this an Obama comment or what? Are we to the point of "ammo inequality" discussions? Ammo rationing? Where do I get my ration stamps?

We either have capitalism or we don't. Your comments in the last section of post 4 are most decidely NOT capitalism.

[garym1a2]

People can call it gouging or not. It makes no matter to me as I don't do buisness with them. They have a right to charge what ever they want and I have the capability to remember they took advantage of the situation and not buy from them in the future1

[texaswoodworker]

My comments at the end of post 4 was in response to C. Latches comment the keeping the price high somehow helped distribute it. Limiting it would help distribute it, but that wasn't a suggestion. I don't propose that businesses should do this, only saying that if a business wanted to distribute it to more people, that's how they'd do it.

What's up with you guys trying to label me a socialist. That's the second time in this thread I've been accused of posting socialist posts. That may work on some people, but considering I'm a libertarian who believe in as little government interference as possible, Socialism isn't exactly something I'd support in any way.

[Love Life]

M855 sucks anyway.

[btroj]

Then let the market place work. Businesses can charge what they want, consumers can vote with their wallet.

[RogerDat]

Capitalism
An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

A free market however presumes that folks can present recommendations for or admonishment against those privately owned companies.
Really people do tend to leave off the last part of "efficiency" from our description of capitalism. It is efficient at providing goods and services to those with the means and willingness to pay for them.

Asking folks to be unwilling to do business with some enterprises because they don't value or respect some of their customers is perfectly acceptable. Actually the civil rights boycotts were all about that same concept. Asking people to act in a cooperative manner against personal self interest for overall benefit of the group is an iffy proposition. I'm sure some folks will be willing to pay whatever CTD charges thus establishing a "market price" well beyond what many can afford and rewarding those that jack the price up early in order to be the only one with merchandise during a shortage.

[dragon813gt]

The OP isn't a socialist. And he's doing everyone a service by pointing out that CTD jacked up their prices yet again. Newer shooters might not be aware that they've done this in the past. Buy or don't buy, that's up to you.

I'm waiting for AR prices to go up again so I can "gouge" people for lowers :laugh:

[texaswoodworker]

Then let the market place work. Businesses can charge what they want, consumers can vote with their wallet.
Are you people even reading my posts? That's exactly what I've been saying. I've said it numerous times. I'm not proposing some law, and I am not saying the place doesn't have a right to charge what they want. I'm saying we should make their policies known to consumers and shop at other places. That is all. Nothing else.

[Love Life]

Places like cheaper than dirt allow me to sell 30,000 bullets in a little over 24 hours for $118.00 per 1,000.

Works for me. Yay cheaper than dirt.

[texaswoodworker]

Capitalism
An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

A free market however presumes that folks can present recommendations for or admonishment against those privately owned companies.
Really people do tend to leave off the last part of "efficiency" from our description of capitalism. It is efficient at providing goods and services to those with the means and willingness to pay for them.

Asking folks to be unwilling to do business with some enterprises because they don't value or respect some of their customers is perfectly acceptable. Actually the civil rights boycotts were all about that same concept. Asking people to act in a cooperative manner against personal self interest for overall benefit of the group is an iffy proposition. I'm sure some folks will be willing to pay whatever CTD charges thus establishing a "market price" well beyond what many can afford and rewarding those that jack the price up early in order to be the only one with merchandise during a shortage.
Thank you!

[jonp]

CTD could charge .10/rd or $100/rd. Doesn't matter to me as after they caved and yanked the firearms after Sandy Hook I will never shop there again.

[Wis. Tom]

If you can find something and can afford it, and want it, buy it. If not, push the escape button, and let someone else buy it. Or move overseas to many other countries, and have no chance of finding it, or buying it, because it's illegal.

[Bad Water Bill]

When I wasted my money at "CHEAPER THAN DIRT" by buying their KA 72 ammo I said never again will I even read their add again.

Yes we here had a long discussion (including photos) of how DANGEROUS that ammo was.

Many folks had purchased that junk and ended up scrapping every round we had.

With that information flooding the internet day after day on just how dangerous THEIR ammo was (including cut away photos of the deteriorated green plug at the neck and shoulder of the cartridge) did they offer to refund our money as any reputable business would?

At that point My mind sees "CHEAPER THAN DIRT BECAUSE IT IS DIRT" and I use the last DIRT because use of the word I would like to would get me BANNED.

[Plate plinker]

CTD two thumbs down.

[starmac]

Not sure why anyone even checks their prices, just like DICKS.

[TXGunNut]

I caught onto their "opportunistic" business model over 15 years ago, wasn't too impressed with them up to that point. Nothing new.

[oldred]

Texas, some are going to nitpick and try to twist what you say but be assured that most of us do know what you're saying and yes you are right, this is far beyond fair profit and the "capitalism" argument doesn't work here. Sure capitalism is what allows them to do it but that in no way makes it right, this is greed plain and simple and these people are trying yet again to profit from what they perceive as a bad situation, folks who support this type of thing are the reason they can get away with it. I don't see anywhere you suggested that anyone do anything to stop them or limit their pricing in any way but rather it was clearly suggested that the thing to do is simply don't buy from them! Thanks for bringing this up but I, like a lot of others here, will never buy from CTD anymore anyway.

[Cmm_3940]

Fleecing the sheep is obviously more important to them than maintaining loyal repeat customers. Their business, their call. Time will tell whether their business model works or not. This is how things work in America.

On the flip side, it is our prerogative as consumers to express our discontent by spreading word of the dirty b******s business practices far and wide and running their business into the ground if we can.

[Windwalker 45acp]

I haven't shopped there since the Sandy Hook tragedy. It's their right to charge as they see fit, but it's also customers right to call them on it and shop elsewhere. Make no mistake, they will sale plenty there at elevated prices to the sheep who don't shop around, and are easily duped.

As always, Caveat emptor (Buyer Beware).

[A pause for the COZ]

They are still on my poop list from the last event.
Even if they had the last food for sale, I would cook my shoe 1st.

[montana_charlie]

What you miss it that soon - very soon - 'somewhere else' - will be out of ammo. CTD will still be able to serve customers.
CTD is out ... no backorder

[lbaize3]

Caveat emptor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat_emptor)

[gtgeorge]

Dicks and CTD are still in business but not on my list of vendors. I love capitalism as much as the next guy for the most part but have never looked to try to get rich from taking advantage of a situation. Maybe that's why I have not amassed a small fortune but will not change the way I feel about those that do. We do not HAVE to buy from them so if you don't like it.....don't buy it. I personally blacklist them for their practice but that is my choice.

[snowwolfe]

Not sure why anyone even checks their prices, just like DICKS.

Agreed. With all the bad mouthing about CTD I simply don't understand why the OP went to their web site in the first place.

[C. Latch]

CTD is out ... no backorder

They may be out of one thing, but during the panic, they had ammo, of multiple types, when nobody else did.

[FISH4BUGS]

They are not helping to ensure the people who need the ammo the most gets it, they are just trying to be greedy and line their pockets while more reputable business such as Midway USA will keep the price the same as it was.

With all due respect sir, buy it from Midway then. Vote with your wallet. The great American way.

[Kent Fowler]

What I can't understand is why are you wasting your time even looking at a CTD ad. It's not worth the aggravation when you see one of their crazy ads. Everyone on this board knows what the they are like and how they do business. I got their first catalog in 1993 or so and saw how they royally screwed people on the shipping, so I've never even considered ordering from them and have paid no attention to any of their ads. Life is too short to get upset with these kinds of businesses. Give your money to someone else.

[dragon813gt]

Agreed. With all the bad mouthing about CTD I simply don't understand why the OP went to their web site in the first place.

As soon as I heard of the ban I wondered if CTD had jacked up their prices. I won't give them a click. But was tempted to just to see if it was business as usual.

[Recluse]

CTD could charge .10/rd or $100/rd. Doesn't matter to me as after they caved and yanked the firearms after Sandy Hook I will never shop there again.


As soon as I heard of the ban I wondered if CTD had jacked up their prices. I won't give them a click. But was tempted to just to see if it was business as usual.

Rackets like Dicks and Cheaper Than Dirt, et al, actually do veteran shooters and reloaders like me a good service--they attract the idiots, posers, wannabes and other assorted garbage and trash we have in the shooting and gun-owners' world and keep the good places I like to trade with largely intact.

I just came back home from the range not even an hour ago. Was testing out my first Hi-Tek coated boolits. Two bays over from me were a couple of tactards shooting two Garands. . . at seven yards.

And missing.

But these two idiots looked good. Tactical cargo pants, tactical boots with special soles. Tactical Under Armour undershirt underneath a tactical shirt that had tactical pockets up around the tactical biceps area. They had their tactical gun bags which held their tactical wrap-around eye wear and the boys (mid/late twenties) were working on their tactical special forces beards but it appeared that both might have been a little testosterone challenged, tactically speaking, as the beards were pretty sparse, as was any indication of hair on their forearms or peeking up from under their tactical Under Armour undershirt.

They also had an AR-15 or some sort that was. . . well, let's just say that during my years of law enforcement, I never saw a pimp's Cadillac as tricked out as this AR-15 looking gun was. They were shooting it at seven yards also. And missing the black portion of the target completely. But they were shooting in a tactical stance with their left arm out front holding the gun in the cool manner you see the wannabes on the tactical shooting shows do it.

And the sack logo that was holding all their tactical "mil surp" ammo?

Cheaper Than Dirt.

Those two yokels are square in the center of the target audience that Cheaper Than Dirt chases and promotes to shamelessly.

And that is more than reason enough for me to never darken their doorstep or click on their web page.

They're actually doing the rest of us a huge favor. But kudos to the OP for calling them out. You can call it capitalism and say "don't do biz with them," which is exactly how I do it. But we should ALSO extend a little courtesy to those in our crowd who spot the shucksters and rip-off artists and call attention to them.

:coffee:

[dale2242]

There seems no end to this type of thread.
They just keep coming...dale

[RogerDat]

Well if people don't vent here what are they going to do? Tell the wife or girl friend? She already figures half of what I say is meant to be ignored and the rest is optional. The woman loves me but not enough to listen to this stuff.

[MaryB]

CTD made enemies of most of the gun world and now they mainly sell to newbies and suckers. I hate to see newbies get taken but some wil not listen so *shrug* their money to waste. I have 1k 62 grain green tip bullets I can load if I want range blasting ammo.

[texaswoodworker]

How dare someone want to come to a forum they respect, vent a little, and warn other shooters about a business's poor business practices. I mean, the nerve of him wanting to make sure no one else unwittingly falls victim to outrageous prices. :rolleyes:

With all due respect, I made the title of this thread very clear. There is no question as to what it's about. If you don't like that, then please ignore it. Coming into the thread and whining about it is pretty childish in my opinion. I don't care for Glocks. If I see a thread about a Glock, I don't go in there and complain about how much I don't like them. I ignore the thread and go on with life. Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes.

[Bonz]

If I want to buy something, I search out the cheapest price. When I find the cheapest price, if I am willing to spend that amount, I really don't care who is selling it. It's all supply & demand...

[MaryB]

I have loyalty to the dealers who give the best prices/service. Sometimes it is a false economy to save 4 cents a round only to get garbage or damaged goods you can't return unless you want to pay through the nose for freight...

And talk about stupid pricing... http://www.surplusammo.com/5-56-m-855-62-grain-penetrator-fmj-winchester-ranger-le-20-rounds/ $1.50 round!

[Bad Water Bill]

Rackets like Dicks and Cheaper Than Dirt, et al, actually do veteran shooters and reloaders like me a good service--they attract the idiots, posers, wannabes and other assorted garbage and trash we have in the shooting and gun-owners' world and keep the good places I like to trade with largely intact.

I just came back home from the range not even an hour ago. Was testing out my first Hi-Tek coated boolits. Two bays over from me were a couple of tactards shooting two Garands. . . at seven yards.

And missing.

But these two idiots looked good. Tactical cargo pants, tactical boots with special soles. Tactical Under Armour undershirt underneath a tactical shirt that had tactical pockets up around the tactical biceps area. They had their tactical gun bags which held their tactical wrap-around eye wear and the boys (mid/late twenties) were working on their tactical special forces beards but it appeared that both might have been a little testosterone challenged, tactically speaking, as the beards were pretty sparse, as was any indication of hair on their forearms or peeking up from under their tactical Under Armour undershirt.

They also had an AR-15 or some sort that was. . . well, let's just say that during my years of law enforcement, I never saw a pimp's Cadillac as tricked out as this AR-15 looking gun was. They were shooting it at seven yards also. And missing the black portion of the target completely. But they were shooting in a tactical stance with their left arm out front holding the gun in the cool manner you see the wannabes on the tactical shooting shows do it.

And the sack logo that was holding all their tactical "mil surp" ammo?

Cheaper Than Dirt.

Those two yokels are square in the center of the target audience that Cheaper Than Dirt chases and promotes to shamelessly.

And that is more than reason enough for me to never darken their doorstep or click on their web page.

They're actually doing the rest of us a huge favor. But kudos to the OP for calling them out. You can call it capitalism and say "don't do biz with them," which is exactly how I do it. But we should ALSO extend a little courtesy to those in our crowd who spot the shucksters and rip-off artists and call attention to them.

:coffee:

Did you clean up on their brass?

After a range I used to shoot at closed I went in and cleaned up the place.

It was frequented by the same type because the next nearest would not permit the TACTICOOL stuff.

Yes sir I came home with over 38# of once fired Win brass and the boxes it came in.

You ain't cool if you clean up after yourself or respect others property.

[triggerhappy243]

Funny that ctd is not gouging on non-m855 ball ammo, it is gouging.......................... And that is final.

[triggerhappy243]

I dont know where that came from. But im going to go melt some lead.

[Handloader109]

So they jacked up the price they are asking for one type of ammo. Big deal, they are the cheapest in the country on . 22TCM ammo. Go figure. Even with shipping costs.. If you don't want to buy from them, go elsewhere. It IS still a free country, no one is forcing you to buy from them or from anyone. Just like buying gasoline

[triggerhappy243]

All i was saying is if it were a supply and demand issue... All of it would be a buck around. Me, personally i don't use fmj ammo for anything.... This is more about taking advantage of a bad situation.... And the govt trying to dis arm us. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Bad Water Bill]

How would you feel about a company that had a sale on 30-06 ammo?

I bought 1 order and took my young son to shoot it in the brand new Weatherby Vanguard.

Dad you shoot it first because you paid for it was my sons statement.

Fired ONE round and my son now was wearing brass particles in his face and arm.

We showed it to the range master and he said we were the 4th person that had purchased that ammo from CTD and all only fired less than one magazine full before consigning it to the dumpster for safe destruction.

Of course there is a NO RETURN policy no matter how defective and dangerous the ammo is.

[jonas302]

So they jacked up the price they are asking for one type of ammo. Big deal, they are the cheapest in the country on . 22TCM ammo. Go figure. Even with shipping costs.. If you don't want to buy from them, go elsewhere. It IS still a free country, no one is forcing you to buy from them or from anyone. Just like buying gasoline


Grafs site sponsor are $10 cheaper on 22tcm... when I include shipping
cheaper than dirt has never had anything cheap enough for me

[dakotashooter2]

I've never found CTD cheaper on anything...........................including dirt....................

[triggerhappy243]

I only ordered once from them when they first opened. It was a good deal... Til the next time i ordered something.... Told them never mind. Now i buy from midsouth shooters supply. And don't even ask about midway...

[WILCO]

What's up with you guys trying to label me a socialist.

http://onedayworkweek.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/duck-1.jpg#If%20it%20walks%20like%20a%20duck%20and%20qu acks%20500x530

[triggerhappy243]

You're not a socialist.

[WILCO]

There seems no end to this type of thread.
They just keep coming...dale

I'm looking forward to the "Healthcare" threads.
You know, the one where everyone sings praise for the government stepping in and fixing that mess.

[texaswoodworker]

http://onedayworkweek.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/duck-1.jpg#If%20it%20walks%20like%20a%20duck%20and%20qu acks%20500x530

If that's true, then you guys must be blinder than a bat and deaf to boot! :p

[Recluse]

SMH. . .

There are some members here who could stand a little advanced education on the differences between economic systems before they start posting accusations of someone being a socialist. . .

Try doing a bit of study/research on the following:

1. Traditional Economic System

2. Command Economic System

3. Market Economic System

4. Mixed Economic System

Simply and arbitrarily labeling everything you see or opine on as "socialist" or "capitalist" only makes you look foolish. NO complex economy has ever been that simple and never will be. Maybe the forum should have a sale on Windex for some of the folks here who are (perpetually) living in glass houses.

:coffee:

[texaswoodworker]

SMH. . .

There are some members here who could stand a little advanced education on the differences between economic systems before they start posting accusations of someone being a socialist. . .

Try doing a bit of study/research on the following:

1. Traditional Economic System

2. Command Economic System

3. Market Economic System

4. Mixed Economic System

Simply and arbitrarily labeling everything you see or opine on as "socialist" or "capitalist" only makes you look foolish. NO complex economy has ever been that simple and never will be. Maybe the forum should have a sale on Windex for some of the folks here who are (perpetually) living in glass houses.

:coffee:

Correct me if I'm wrong, because it's been a few years since I took economics in college. I believe a command economic system is what people typically think of when they call something Socialist, and a market economic system is what people think of as Capitalism.

My question is, why was the subject even bough up? Is labeling something as Socialist just something we do now when we see something we don't agree on? The subject in question doesn't call for a discussion in economic systems at all. It's simply a consumer exercising his 1st amendment rights by warning other consumers about a business's bad business practices and saying that we should take our business elsewhere. Nowhere in that is there any shred of "Socialism".

[Recluse]

Correct me if I'm wrong, because it's been a few years since I took economics in college. I believe a command economic system is what people typically think of when they call something Socialist, and a market economic system is what people think of as Capitalism.

My question is, why was the subject even bough up? Is labeling something as Socialist just something we do now when we see something we don't agree on? The subject in question doesn't call for a discussion in economic systems at all. It's simply a consumer exercising his 1st amendment rights by warning other consumers about a business's bad business practices and saying that we should take our business elsewhere. Nowhere in that is there any shred of "Socialism".

A command economic system is one like what China is employing today. Their government "owns" many of the factories and production facilities, but operates them on a free-market system. This way, the government can regulate wages and other costs as well as have "first shot" at the profits. But as we've seen in the past few years, they (China) are moving more towards a Market Economic System. This kind of economy can really only work (well) if there becomes a true "separation" between market and state--which China has basically accomplished.

Here in the U.S., we've moved in the exact OPPOSITE direction. Our "bailouts" of General Motors, Fanny/Freddie Mac, the airlines, Amtrak, et al, has only made the lid to the proverbial cookie jar even bigger for more government hands to get their greedy little fingers into--and thus, the separation of market and state continues to diminish even more with each passing year. Wall Street is a huge reason for this because Wall Street continues to increase their lobbying efforts and bribes and campaign funds to the rats inside the Beltway.

Anymore, any company that is publicly traded can no longer be truly considered a "capitalist" company--they are beholden to the government for their very existence. Thus, our economy, which was once considered the shining light of a Market Economic System is now a solid Mixed Economic System, or Dual Economy as it is also often referred to. Pretty much all this means is that the government doesn't own ALL businesses, but it's trying to have as big of a hand in as many as it can.

As far as "why" some immediately jump to the labeling/name-calling game whenever economics come up in the realm of pointing out questionable business practices/tactics?

Best answer I can give to that is to say that when a dog urinates on a fire hydrant, he's not committing vandalism, he's simply being a dog. . . it's what he does.

:coffee:

[Bad Water Bill]

Many folks here believe in helping other members.

Simply by reporting how a dealer treats customers or the quality of products and services they provide is one more reason many folks stay here year after year.

If you doubt this please watch how many times folks step up in "OUR TOWN" to ask questions about dealer X Y or Z?

YES we are here to share our experiences not just to call someone names only to increase your post count.

[9.3X62AL]

The usual grumps are calling one another "Capitalists" and "Socialists" just like every time a discussion turns toward predatory pricing of any element of our hobby interest. Whatever element we are discussing, there comes a point at which I am DONE paying whatever price Captain Menshevik wants to sell his 40 year old Monkey Wards 22 LR ammo for. As for CTD, I wouldn't pass water on the place or its occupants if it was fully-involved in a 10-alarm conflagration. By whatever name you want to call it, I am profoundly burned out on the shenanigans that have beset the gun and ammunition industry for the past few years, and my purchases of products from that lot has slowed down to a trickle. With few exceptions, most of them can pound sand.

[Cmm_3940]

This is the market economy at work. How you treat your customers is part of your business model. If your business model is invalid, your business fails. Until the government starts interfering, then it becomes something completey different, which I thought Recluse expained quite well.

Most companies operating in this business sector we all patronize realize that their customers are the type of people who talk to each other about how they are treated. By continuing to discuss it, like we are right now, we are supporting the good guys with the forethought to treat us right. CTD is relying on a steady stream of fresh no0bs and suckers to stay in business. Who knows? In the end, it may work for them. There's always a lot of no0bs and suckers out there.

[MtGun44]

Unbelieveable to spend this much time getting all in a lather about
it.

If you don't like the prices, go elsewhere.


I buy there when I like the prices, and when I don't like them
I don't buy.

Bill

[jonp]

I open several tabs and place the same items in a cart. I check Mid South, Brownells, Natchez, Optics Planet etc..Some might not have everything I want but usually at least two do. I ring it up and make sure to include shipping then buy from the cheapest. It's not hard to do this.

I start with Mid South as I've ordered from them numerous times and they are a sight supporter

[WILCO]

Unbelieveable to spend this much time getting all in a lather about it.

Bill,

I chimed in because I'm sick of people not understanding basic economics 101.
People who slander, accuse and make outrageous claims of greed, with evil intent have no comprehension of business and what it takes to run one successfully.
These same people then start calling for government intervention. They continue to spread the negative rants and promote the notion that businesses have a duty towards social agendas of fairness and equality. That is where the "Socialism" label comes into play. The sole purpose of a business is to make money. Making money provides opportunity for others. There's a difference between saying "Hey, I had a bad experience with so and so.." and the outright slander as stated in the original post.





If you don't like the prices, go elsewhere.

That's the basic gist of it. I vote with my wallet all the time.

[Recluse]

Bill,

I chimed in because I'm sick of people not understanding basic economics 101.
People who slander, accuse and make outrageous claims of greed, with evil intent have no comprehension of business and what it takes to run one successfully.
These same people then start calling for government intervention. They continue to spread the negative rants and promote the notion that businesses have a duty towards social agendas of fairness and equality. That is where the "Socialism" label comes into play. The sole purpose of a business is to make money. Making money provides opportunity for others. There's a difference between saying "Hey, I had a bad experience with so and so.." and the outright slander as stated in the original post.

That's the basic gist of it. I vote with my wallet all the time.

Okay. . . here's where I get a little torqued.

"The sole purpose of a business is to make money."

Well, duh. Of course it is. But is also NOT contingent upon being a capitalist-oriented business or a socialist or fascist or anarchist or any other -ist. ALL businesses need to make money in order to survive.

I suppose a great number of insurance companies and hospitals could be considered socialist by your definition up above where you apply the socialist label by stating: They continue to spread the negative rants and promote the notion that businesses have a duty towards social agendas of fairness and equality.

Sorry Wilco, but that is not the definition of a socialist business. Not even close. Perhaps before you become any sicker about people not understanding "Economics 101" it would behoove you to brush up on it yourself prior to posting pictures of ducks and labeling another member as a "socialist."

And by the way, your accusation/s of slander are also incorrect. Slander is the spoken word and is much harder to prove. Libel is the written word. Two different arenas with the burden of proof and intent being much more difficult to prove for one over the other.

:coffee:

[MtGun44]

WILCO - you are right about economic ignorance. It is quite amazing how many folks
can manage to grow to adulthood without the slightest grasp of actual economics.
Sadly, many of them are in our government in positions of power, and screwing up
the country.

If anyone is interested, a book that I read a while back by Prof. Thomas Sowell,
who you may recognize from his syndicated columns in the newspapers and
online, called simply enough "Basic Economics" is highly recommended. It
is quite readable, and he uses a lot of very specific and clear examples, often
comparing actual situations in the Soviet Union to what is done elsewhere and
shows the results. Well worth the read. I had taken a macroeconomics course
in college, but this is more basic and cleared up some things for me. Easy to
read and not full of confusing gobbledy-goop.

[jmort]

Prof. Thomas Sowell

He just came out with a revised edition and I agree, a must read.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_3_10?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=thomas+sowell+basic+economics+fifth+editi on&sprefix=thomas+sow%2Cstripbooks%2C242

[flyingrhino]

They can charge what they want. That's free enterprise. I choose not to buy from them.

[texaswoodworker]

These same people then start calling for government intervention.

Well, where is it? Well WILCO? Where is the post in which someone stated they wanted government intervention? I bet you can't find it, because there ISN'T one. I never said I wanted government intervention, quite the opposite actually. I don't recall anyone else saying they wanted it either. In fact, this thread is all about Capitalism. They have a right to charge what they want, just as I have a right to warn others about it and go somewhere else. Kindly take your "socialist" BS somewhere else. It doesn't belong in this thread.

[butch2570]

Well, where is it? Well WILCO? Where is the post in which someone stated they wanted government intervention? I bet you can't find it, because there ISN'T one. I never said I wanted government intervention, quite the opposite actually. I don't recall anyone else saying they wanted it either. In fact, this thread is all about Capitalism. They have a right to charge what they want, just as I have a right to warn others about it and go somewhere else. Kindly take your "socialist" BS somewhere else. It doesn't belong in this thread. He was possibly referring to the thread I started.... In which I made that statement out of frustration, (after further researching it , I admitted later there was no law against it) . But the idea that very few has little if any comprehension of business is unfounded. I had a business that I ran on the side and was happy to earn 30% on my money, I never at any time tried to make more on the return than that. I felt good also when a customer told me that so and so wanted another 50 or $75 over my cost, and they appreciated that I kept the cost down, because they were trying to stretch their dollar also. I was forced to stop my business when my primary job location was moved and had longer commute times, thus because of time/ aggravation restraints I closed it down, not because I wasn't making money.

[shooterg]

If we still used the 2-holer out back, that's where you'd find the CTD catalogs. They can ask whatever they want, I'll ALWAYS spend somewhere else.

[WILCO]

WILCO - you are right about economic ignorance. It is quite amazing how many folkscan manage to grow to adulthood without the slightest grasp of actual economics.

Thanks Bill. [smilie=s:

[WILCO]

Prof. Thomas Sowell

He just came out with a revised edition and I agree, a must read.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_3_10?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=thomas+sowell+basic+economics+fifth+editi on&sprefix=thomas+sow%2Cstripbooks%2C242

Thanks for sharing the link Jmort! [smilie=s:

[WILCO]

He was possibly referring to the thread I started.... In which I made that statement out of frustration.....


Nope. Not at all. I was referencing generalities. That seems to be prevalent with these type of threads.

[texaswoodworker]

Nope. Not at all. I was referencing generalities. That seems to be prevalent with these type of threads.

But are completely absent in this thread.

[mold maker]

Can someone reference the CTD 30-06 ammo that had problems. I found some at a great (yard sale) price, and thought it was a bargain. I'd hate to have a Garand or 03 come to pieces because I didn't know.

[Bad Water Bill]

KA-72 is the headstamp that we had the problem with.

No price is cheap enough unless you want to pull the bullets and use them for reloading.

Hope that helps.

[lefty o]

ctd is a dirtbag low life company, but they do have the right to charge what they want for product they own. on the other hand, any decent person would point out how their prices skyrocket anytime there is a panic, election, shooting, or anything else that makes the sheeple start to panic. almost without fail, if you open your eye's, you can find anything they offer for a cheaper price elsewhere. imo, this is one company that could use to go out of business. having the right to do something, doesnt always mean its right!

[dtknowles]

If I want to buy something, I search out the cheapest price. When I find the cheapest price, if I am willing to spend that amount, I really don't care who is selling it. It's all supply & demand...

Fair enough but some of us might be willing to pay a small premium to deal with people we respect or wish to see succeed. I don't always look for the lowest price. I certainly have bought things from the local gunshop that I could have gotten cheaper elsewhere. Online, sometimes I just go back to people or businesses I have dealt with before without checking to see if they had the best price. I have bought stuff at gunshows without checking the online prices, they had something I wanted, it was right there and I have some feel for what the market price is, might not have been the lowest price but it was reasonable so it came home with me.

Tim

[montana_charlie]

I can't remember the last item I bought from CTD, or how long ago that happened.
However, they were one of the sources I was considering AFTER the news came about about the attempt to ban M855.

The sources I had been watching, those with 'improving prices' and free shipping, went totally 'unavailable' within hours of my hearing the announcement.

Doing a quick search using AmmoSeek, I found a thousand rounds of Prvi Partizan M855, at Cheaper Than Dirt, for $352.

Anybody knows that would be a decent price, and the only thing that made me hesitate was the $31 shipping cost.
That isn't terrible ... some want forty bucks ... but I thought I still had a chance at some ammo on Gunbroker.
So, I held back until that auction closed (where my bid wasn't good enough).

I immediately went back to CTD to find they were sold out ... but backorders were being accepted at the same $352 price.
Not sure I liked the backorder thing, I hesitated again.

On the next day, backorders were no longer an option, and I was out of luck for being so 'timid'.

But, from what I saw, it's not reasonable to say that CTD was 'gouging'.

CM

[762 shooter]

A rhetorical question if I may?

If CTD tripled their price on 45 ACP tomorrow would that be gouging? Or does the fact that it is in demand define the term?

My personal definition of gouging does not include any luxury item. NO one HAS to have ammo.

762

[RogerDat]

Well I guess we can by application of the same logic promoted by some determine that doing the "right" thing, respecting the sensibilities of the community, or moral responsibility is not to be considered when it comes to operation of a business for profit.

I'm not sure I agree. At least not totally. If nothing else selling addictive drugs or prostitution come right to mind. New customers for heroin get a better price than the addict that "must" have it while profitable seems a bit harsh. If the pimp is going to run a profitable business he charges all the market will tolerate and goes where there is excessive demand or a shortage of supply. Even making these activities illegal (government interference) does not prevent these profitable enterprises. Only thing that one can actually do about it is not support them with your money and harass the potential customers.

Is CTD in the same moral basket as these other two? Not really but does have a passing resemblance in terms of not really caring about the community as a whole and working any extra demand for every buck it is worth. As long as they make their money it is what they are going to do.
The solution is the same don't support them and harass the potential customers :bigsmyl2:

Ironic part is there is still a pretty good supply of other ammo in the same caliber available. Now I know it is not exactly the same but hey FMJ works pretty well also.

[MtGun44]

Demand sets the price. Pure economics and folks that can't grasp
that have a pretty unrealistic view of the world.

Oil is $140 per barrel one year, and $40 per barrel a while later. Why?

More oil available than there was when it was $140, for goodness sakes.
Screaming "gouging" is just a silly waste of energy that affects nothing,
certainly not the laws of economics and the prices.

[jcwit]

After spending most of my 50 years in sales and retail the last 20 with our own retail business with my wife, demand does not always set the price. I've watched many folks sitting on their merchandise with out selling any, yes their price was to high, but the fact is they sold none either.

Ever go to a gun show and watch the guy with a stack of bricks of .22's priced at $100/$80 bucks each packing up after the show with the same bricks. Price was gouging or he would have sold some, but the fact he was stubborn was in fact was what set his price.


Fact, he the seller set the price.

[km101]

I don't really care what the definition of "gouging" is in the dictionary, or if CTD is engaging in "capitalism" or not. Those are arguments I leave to the intellectuals who worry about such things.

As for me, I don't like their business model and/or their "politics" so I wont do business with them. EVER. It's called voting with your wallet and it has always worked for me. YMMV.

[Love Life]

People are mad that they cant afford it. If cdt were to offer m855 for $100 per case, I can assure you that many people would conveniently forget that they were boycotting the company.

[MtGun44]

jcwit,
You exactly proved my point. That guy set his price higher than the demand will allow,
so he sold NONE.
"Demand sets the price" - means the SELLING price will be related to the demand. If the price
is higher than the demand will allow, little or none will sell. Not the ASKING price, which can
be any crazy number a seller comes up with. The only price of any significance is the
actual selling price, this is verification that the item was worth that to the buyer.

If something is in very high demand, say a very rare pistol, and there are 5 guys looking at it
and they each REALLY want it - this is "high demand". If this was going on do you think that
the price would increase? Heck yes, it is normal economics. Even if the original sell didn't
increase the price and sold it to the first guy, if one of the other four REALLY wanted it, he'd
immediately offer more money to buy it for himself. That may go on several times right there,
until the price is high enough that the buyer's aren't interested.

I am amazed at how people can't see the direct connection between demand and price.

It is always there. Set the price too low on a high demand item and all will sell out in a hurry,
and maybe some of those will sell it on for a bit more . Too high and none will sell.

Back to CTD - if they set a price which is more than I want to pay, I DON'T BUY IT. If there
are 1000 other folks that disagree with me and think it is a price that they are willing to
pay, then they will buy. If everyone agrees with me that the price is too high, the item
will sit unsold. A seller with some brains will realize eventually that to sell the items, the
price will have to be dropped if they actually want to sell. Of course, I have seen some
gun dealers with the same 40 rifles, WAY overpriced, displayed at different gunshows for
the last 10 years. IMO, they are a mobile gun museum, not a gun seller, because none
ever sell at the super high prices, and apparently they don't care whether they sell or
not because the prices never go down and they are unwilling to dicker.

Each buyer decides for himself what is a reasonable price, depending on a lot of things like
scarcity and urgency of need. In a burning airplane, parachutes will be bid up pretty quickly.
In the Sahara desert, bags of sand will sit unsold at 5 cents each.

[gtgeorge]

People are mad that they cant afford it. If cdt were to offer m855 for $100 per case, I can assure you that many people would conveniently forget that they were boycotting the company.
I can assure you that no money I am in control of will ever grace their business as well as a few others I have decided to not do business with. It has amazed me though that many that swore them off started posting their sales when they had good pricing and forgot their no shop list....So in so much as what I have seen many others do, you are correct.

[WILCO]

jcwit,
You exactly proved my point. That guy set his price higher than the demand will allow,
so he sold NONE.
"Demand sets the price" - means the SELLING price will be related to the demand. If the price
is higher than the demand will allow, little or none will sell. Not the ASKING price, which can
be any crazy number a seller comes up with. The only price of any significance is the
actual selling price, this is verification that the item was worth that to the buyer.

If something is in very high demand, say a very rare pistol, and there are 5 guys looking at it
and they each REALLY want it - this is "high demand". If this was going on do you think that
the price would increase? Heck yes, it is normal economics. Even if the original sell didn't
increase the price and sold it to the first guy, if one of the other four REALLY wanted it, he'd
immediately offer more money to buy it for himself. That may go on several times right there,
until the price is high enough that the buyer's aren't interested.

I am amazed at how people can't see the direct connection between demand and price.

It is always there. Set the price too low on a high demand item and all will sell out in a hurry,
and maybe some of those will sell it on for a bit more . Too high and none will sell.

Back to CTD - if they set a price which is more than I want to pay, I DON'T BUY IT. If there
are 1000 other folks that disagree with me and think it is a price that they are willing to
pay, then they will buy. If everyone agrees with me that the price is too high, the item
will sit unsold. A seller with some brains will realize eventually that to sell the items, the
price will have to be dropped if they actually want to sell. Of course, I have seen some
gun dealers with the same 40 rifles, WAY overpriced, displayed at different gunshows for
the last 10 years. IMO, they are a mobile gun museum, not a gun seller, because none
ever sell at the super high prices, and apparently they don't care whether they sell or
not because the prices never go down and they are unwilling to dicker.

Each buyer decides for himself what is a reasonable price, depending on a lot of things like
scarcity and urgency of need. In a burning airplane, parachutes will be bid up pretty quickly.
In the Sahara desert, bags of sand will sit unsold at 5 cents each.

Hahahahhahahahaha!!! BRILLIANT Bill!!! To the point and factual.

[9.3X62AL]

Our hobby field's market has been in some state of uproar ever since The ObamaNation Regime took up residence in the Oval Office. These shortages and outages were by no means the first such dry-outs, but this most recent spate seems to have been the longest in duration. I have no difficulty understanding demand being the ultimate arbiter of price. If there is an over-arching big-picture idea that needs to emerge for all of this hoo-raw over the past 6 years, it is this.......the ammo makers and component makers in this country service their market VERY POORLY. And VERY THINLY. The stream is shallow--narrow--and VERY prone to drought and emptiness. Just another very good reason to reload your empties and pour your own bullets to fill them with, and keep a close eye on component stocks.

[WILCO]

the ammo makers and component makers in this country service their market VERY POORLY. And VERY THINLY. The stream is shallow--narrow--and VERY prone to drought and emptiness.

Source??

[dragon813gt]

Source??

Their isn't one. None of us know how the manufacturers run. I know they can't stock items for potential runs. Inventory tax prevents this. They make just enough to sell for the year. I don't feel the manufacturers are doing a poor job. I do think their are a lot more shooters. And it's a big financial move for the manufacturers to expand production.

[texaswoodworker]

People are mad that they cant afford it. If cdt were to offer m855 for $100 per case, I can assure you that many people would conveniently forget that they were boycotting the company.

I don't care if they were selling it for $10. They've shown far too many times that they care more about money than treating their customers right. I have principles and I stand up for them. They won't ever get a penny from me.

[MtGun44]

I have always obtained exactly what I ordered, quickly and packed adequately from
CTD. I do NOT always agree with their prices, but will always buy a bargain from them.

If you don't - fine, no skin off my nose, leaves more for me, if it is something I want
and the price is right.

[jcwit]

jcwit,
You exactly proved my point. That guy set his price higher than the demand will allow,
so he sold NONE.
"Demand sets the price" - means the SELLING price will be related to the demand. If the price
is higher than the demand will allow, little or none will sell. Not the ASKING price, which can
be any crazy number a seller comes up with. The only price of any significance is the
actual selling price, this is verification that the item was worth that to the buyer.

If something is in very high demand, say a very rare pistol, and there are 5 guys looking at it
and they each REALLY want it - this is "high demand". If this was going on do you think that
the price would increase? Heck yes, it is normal economics. Even if the original sell didn't
increase the price and sold it to the first guy, if one of the other four REALLY wanted it, he'd
immediately offer more money to buy it for himself. That may go on several times right there,
until the price is high enough that the buyer's aren't interested.

I am amazed at how people can't see the direct connection between demand and price.

It is always there. Set the price too low on a high demand item and all will sell out in a hurry,
and maybe some of those will sell it on for a bit more . Too high and none will sell.

Back to CTD - if they set a price which is more than I want to pay, I DON'T BUY IT. If there
are 1000 other folks that disagree with me and think it is a price that they are willing to
pay, then they will buy. If everyone agrees with me that the price is too high, the item
will sit unsold. A seller with some brains will realize eventually that to sell the items, the
price will have to be dropped if they actually want to sell. Of course, I have seen some
gun dealers with the same 40 rifles, WAY overpriced, displayed at different gunshows for
the last 10 years. IMO, they are a mobile gun museum, not a gun seller, because none
ever sell at the super high prices, and apparently they don't care whether they sell or
not because the prices never go down and they are unwilling to dicker.

Each buyer decides for himself what is a reasonable price, depending on a lot of things like
scarcity and urgency of need. In a burning airplane, parachutes will be bid up pretty quickly.
In the Sahara desert, bags of sand will sit unsold at 5 cents each.

So by that reply there is no such thing as gouging or a rip off.

If I own a hardware and have a stock of hammers and they get sold out to the last 2 hammers it's perfectly fine for me to double the price of the last 2 hammers till my shipment of new hammers comes in. I'm selling a hammer a day and my new shipment isn't due in for another week.


Yup it makes perfect sense.


Funny, I ran my own successful retail business for 10 years till cancer forced my retirement, and never applied such practices.

Aren't we glad the food industry doesn't work this way.

[jcwit]

jcwit,
You exactly proved my point. That guy set his price higher than the demand will allow,
so he sold NONE.
"Demand sets the price" - means the SELLING price will be related to the demand. If the price
is higher than the demand will allow, little or none will sell. Not the ASKING price, which can
be any crazy number a seller comes up with. The only price of any significance is the
actual selling price, this is verification that the item was worth that to the buyer.

If something is in very high demand, say a very rare pistol, and there are 5 guys looking at it
and they each REALLY want it - this is "high demand". If this was going on do you think that
the price would increase? Heck yes, it is normal economics. Even if the original sell didn't
increase the price and sold it to the first guy, if one of the other four REALLY wanted it, he'd
immediately offer more money to buy it for himself. That may go on several times right there,
until the price is high enough that the buyer's aren't interested.

I am amazed at how people can't see the direct connection between demand and price.

It is always there. Set the price too low on a high demand item and all will sell out in a hurry,
and maybe some of those will sell it on for a bit more . Too high and none will sell.

Back to CTD - if they set a price which is more than I want to pay, I DON'T BUY IT. If there
are 1000 other folks that disagree with me and think it is a price that they are willing to
pay, then they will buy. If everyone agrees with me that the price is too high, the item
will sit unsold. A seller with some brains will realize eventually that to sell the items, the
price will have to be dropped if they actually want to sell. Of course, I have seen some
gun dealers with the same 40 rifles, WAY overpriced, displayed at different gunshows for
the last 10 years. IMO, they are a mobile gun museum, not a gun seller, because none
ever sell at the super high prices, and apparently they don't care whether they sell or
not because the prices never go down and they are unwilling to dicker.

Each buyer decides for himself what is a reasonable price, depending on a lot of things like
scarcity and urgency of need. In a burning airplane, parachutes will be bid up pretty quickly.
In the Sahara desert, bags of sand will sit unsold at 5 cents each.

This thinking is little different that 2 gas stations across from each other. One selling gas for $2.30, the other for $2.50. I've seen this, and the one at $2.50 having every pump pumping.

[jcwit]

Their isn't one. None of us know how the manufacturers run. I know they can't stock items for potential runs. Inventory tax prevents this. They make just enough to sell for the year. I don't feel the manufacturers are doing a poor job. I do think their are a lot more shooters. And it's a big financial move for the manufacturers to expand production.

There are a lot more shooters?????

Really there are a lot more "gun owners".

How crowded are you shooting ranges.

The ones here in No. Indiana & So. Mich. aren't.

[dragon813gt]

There are a lot more shooters?????

Really there are a lot more "gun owners".

How crowded are you shooting ranges.

The ones here in No. Indiana & So. Mich. aren't.

Yes, there are a lot more people shooting. I'm a member of five ranges in the area. All of them have increased their membership by hundred of people. One of them went from 200 to just shy of 1000 in three years. I went from having ranges to myself to having to wait for lanes to open up. There are more people shooting here than I can ever remember.

Do you think that people are buying firearms and then not using them?

[wch]

CTD will charge what the market will bear; always has, always will.

[MtGun44]

Actually, most industries DO work that way. They charge the REPLACEMENT
cost, not what they have in it.

And yes, in my opinion, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PRICE GOUGING.

Let Dr. Walter Williams, an economist and really nice, and smart guy say it better;

The fallout from Hurricane Katrina has featured a lot of ignorance and demagoguery about prices. Let’s look at some of it. One undeniable fact is that the hurricane disaster changed scarcity conditions. There are fewer stores, fewer units of housing, less gasoline and a shortage of many other goods and services used daily. Rising prices not only manifest these changed scarcity conditions, they help us cope, adjust and get us on the road to recovery.

Here’s a which-is-better question for you. Suppose a hotel room rented for $79 a night prior to Hurricane Katrina’s devastation. Based on that price, an evacuating family of four might rent two adjoining rooms. When they arrive at the hotel, they find the rooms rent for $200; they decide to make do with one room. In my book, that’s wonderful. The family voluntarily opted to make a room available for another family who had to evacuate or whose home was destroyed. Demagogues will call this price-gouging, but I ask you, which is preferable: a room available at $200 or a room unavailable at $79? Rising prices get people to voluntarily economize on goods and services rendered scarcer by the disaster.

After Hurricane Katrina struck, gasoline prices shot up almost a dollar nearly overnight. Some people have been quick to call this price-gouging, particularly since wholesalers and retailers were charging the higher price for gasoline already purchased and in their tanks prior to the hurricane. The fact of business is that what a seller paid for something doesn’t necessarily determine its selling price. Put in a bit more sophisticated way: Historical costs have nothing to do with selling price. For example, suppose you maintained a 10-pound inventory of coffee in your cupboard. When I ran out, you would occasionally sell me a pound for $2. Suppose there’s a freeze in Brazil destroying much of the coffee crop, driving coffee prices to $5 a pound. Then I come around to purchase coffee. Will you charge me $2 a pound, what you paid for it, or $5, what it will cost you to restock your coffee inventory?
What about the house you might have bought for $50,000 in 1970 that you’re selling today? If you charged me $250,000 for it, today’s price for its replacement, as opposed to what you paid for it, are you guilty of price-gouging?

Recovering from Katrina means resources must be moved to the Gulf Coast. I ask you, how does one get electricians, plumbers and other artisans to give up their comfortable homes and livelihoods in Virginia and Pennsylvania and travel to Mobile and New Orleans to help in the recovery? If you said pay them higher prices, go to the head of the class. Higher prices, along with windfall profits, are economic signals of unmet human wants. As such, they encourage producers to meet those human wants. Politicians of both parties have rushed in to exploit public ignorance and emotion. Last week Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich (Democrat) threatened to prosecute gas companies. Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott (Republican) is threatening legal action against what he called “unconscionable pricing” by hotels. Alabama Attorney General Troy King (Republican) promises to vigorously prosecute businesses that significantly increase prices during the state of emergency. The Bush administration has called for the Justice Department and the Federal Trade Commission to look for evidence of price-gouging, and Congress plans to hold hearings on oil company “price-gouging".

Lenin and Marx also thought that they could stop those nasty capitalists from profiting off of human
needs. Personally, I disagree with them - so I wholly trust in free markets as the best possible
way to allot goods and services and produce the overall best possible conditions for humans. I
STRONGLY encourage you to read Thomas Sowell's book, Basic Economics to get a better explanation
of this than I can do.

[Uncle R.]

A valiant attempt Bill, and very well written. Still, I doubt it will change anyone's mind.
"Price gouging" is apparently one of those visceral issues that's more a reflection of core personality type than a matter subject to logic and reason. Some will never "get it" no matter how well you explain.

Uncle R.

[texaswoodworker]

Are you guys still on that economics stuff? It has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with how CTD treats its customers. There are dozens of companies out there that do not engage in CTDs practices. They could, but they actually care about their customers so they choose not to. Those are the businesses you should be supporting.

[Love Life]

I support whatever company has what I want. I never did figure out a way to load and shoot principals.

[texaswoodworker]

I support whatever company has what I want. I never did figure out a way to load and shoot principals.
If you shoot a principal, your going to jail. :p Every man needs principles, and every man needs to stand by them.

[Uncle R.]

If you shoot a principal, your going to jail. Every man needs principles, and every man needs to stand by them.

And if you shoot a principal, you're going to jail - if they catch you.

Uncle R.

[texaswoodworker]

And if you shoot a principal, you're going to jail - if they catch you.

Uncle R.

The dash was not necessary. A comma or simply nothing would have been correct.

[Love Life]

Hahahaha!! The spelling/grammar 5-0 got pulled over on his own turf!

*Principles. All is right in the world now.

[Uncle R.]

The dash was not necessary. A comma or simply nothing would have been correct.

Yep.
And the dash is correct as well.

[texaswoodworker]

Yep.
And the dash is correct as well.

Not the way you used it. You used it like you would a comma. You used it as a pause.

Now, can we get back to the actual discussion? Sheesh, you try to make a joke and it turns into a freaking English lesson.

[Love Life]

You're the one who came rolling up in his black and white with sirens blaring.

[texaswoodworker]

You're the one who came rolling up in his black and white with sirens blaring.

I'll say it again, I tried to make a joke. That was all.

[dtknowles]

I'll say it again, I tried to make a joke. That was all.

Correcting peoples grammar and spelling here is not a joking matter ;-)

Tim

[Love Life]

I'll say it again, I tried to make a joke. That was all.

I laughed and Doh slapped myself after I saw your correction. I do appreciate the correction.

[texaswoodworker]

I laughed and Doh slapped myself after I saw your correction. I do appreciate the correction.

lol, I'm really not a grammer nazi. I just play one on TV. :p

[Gator 45/70]

CTD Is dead to me...and has been for years.

[jcwit]

Actually, most industries DO work that way. They charge the REPLACEMENT
cost, not what they have in it.

And yes, in my opinion, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PRICE GOUGING.

Let Dr. Walter Williams, an economist and really nice, and smart guy say it better;


Lenin and Marx also thought that they could stop those nasty capitalists from profiting off of human
needs. Personally, I disagree with them - so I wholly trust in free markets as the best possible
way to allot goods and services and produce the overall best possible conditions for humans. I
STRONGLY encourage you to read Thomas Sowell's book, Basic Economics to get a better explanation
of this than I can do.

Well its clearly obvious Dr. Walter Williams does not work for the Largest Retailer in the world, AKA WalMart who does not follow these practices. Case in point when they do have .22 rimfire ammo it is sold close to the same price point it was sold at prior to this madness.

Thank God you do not run the economics of this country!

[jcwit]

Yes, there are a lot more people shooting. I'm a member of five ranges in the area. All of them have increased their membership by hundred of people. One of them went from 200 to just shy of 1000 in three years. I went from having ranges to myself to having to wait for lanes to open up. There are more people shooting here than I can ever remember.

Do you think that people are buying firearms and then not using them?

I'm a member of 3 ranges here in the Michiana area. Two are outdoor ranges, one is an indoor range. The indoor range has lost approx. 50% of its membership since the first of the year. We are anxiously looking for membership. The one outdoor range in So. Mich. it growing and doing very well. The other outdoor in Indiana is in need of membership and is one of the better ranges in the U.S., at least it is good enough and big enough for the NRA to hold it's National Smallbore Matches there for the last few years.

The outdoor range in So. Mich. that I mentioned that has grown in membership still has little to no gain in shooters attending.

[RogerDat]

Given the scenario of motel rooms post Katrina would it not be better still for the motel to limit how many rooms a family could get based on family size to maximize the use of the space at the same pre crisis price? By the logic put forth in the article the food aid distribution workers that demand sex in exchange for food are a functioning free market by applying a cost to the food aid they limit the demands by each family so there will be enough food to go around. Unless you don't have a daughter or young wife, then you get nothing because you can't "afford" the free market price. For free food aid no less.

Or better still maybe for the people themselves to only take what they need of scarce resources rather than all they can afford? I could have easily bought all three 333 round boxes of .22 LR I saw at Wal-Mart. Could have probably sold two for enough to get one box for free. I figure I was very happy to find them and one box would meet my needs and leave the next person a chance to get their needs met at a reasonable price that was profitable for the seller. As opposed to paying the gouging price I saw at last weeks gun show. Wal-Mart about .6 a round, gun show .20 a round and they had lots of it, some you could see where prior price stickers where taken off. Also a wide variety of brands and sizes as in they purchased as much as they could from lots of different sources.

There is a point made in Game of Thrones when discussing what will happen in a siege. One cynical fellow who has been there explains that the crooked people will amass as much food as they can being quick to seize the opportunity, keeping that food as scarce as possible and charging as much as they can so that by the end of the siege only the crooks, thieves and those without scruples will have any wealth at all. The rest of the city, those that survive, will be reduced to beggars with no way to get the city economy running again.

Replacement of inventory pricing does make sense but only if that replacement will actually be more expensive! And the charged price reflects that real replacement cost rather than charging people in a jam all the traffic will bear. Yes a business can charge elevated and ridiculous prices but not without getting a reputation as an undesirable part of the community.

[Uncle R.]

Not the way you used it. You used it like you would a comma. You used it as a pause.



No - I used it as an en dash to denote a longer pause than a comma would signify. It's not a question of right or wrong, it's a matter of style and can be used at the discretion of the author.

Uncle R.

[texaswoodworker]

I'm a member of 3 ranges here in the Michiana area. Two are outdoor ranges, one is an indoor range. The indoor range has lost approx. 50% of its membership since the first of the year. We are anxiously looking for membership. The one outdoor range in So. Mich. it growing and doing very well. The other outdoor in Indiana is in need of membership and is one of the better ranges in the U.S., at least it is good enough and big enough for the NRA to hold it's National Smallbore Matches there for the last few years.

The outdoor range in So. Mich. that I mentioned that has grown in membership still has little to no gain in shooters attending.

That's odd. The ranges around here are so packed that there's a waiting list to become a member now.

[jcwit]

That's odd. The ranges around here are so packed that there's a waiting list to become a member now.

I agree and only the indoor range is membership over $100 bucks and even then not by much. It is a 24/7 range with swipe card.

Both the outdoor ranges are WELL under $100 bucks, one is even under $50 dollars.

[Uncle R.]

That's odd. The ranges around here are so packed that there's a waiting list to become a member now.

Ranges here are crowded too.

The club I've belonged to for decades has record high membership. The club ranges where I so often would shoot alone or with just a handful of other members are now crowded with newcomers. The number of safety rule infractions has been growing rapidly too, and the club has recently begun to train and empower range officers where it was never considered necessary before.

I'm glad to see so many new shooters because it's politically empowering, but still I often yearn for those less crowded ranges of years ago, and a club where most of the members knew each other by name.

Uncle R.

[Dale in Louisiana]

lol, I'm really not a grammer nazi. I just play one on TV. :p

"Grammer nazi"? Is that somebody who's fanatical about metric weights?

dale in Louisiana
(part-time grammAr nazi)

[texaswoodworker]

"Grammer nazi"? Is that somebody who's fanatical about metric weights?

dale in Louisiana
(part-time grammAr nazi)

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/picard_clapping.gif

[MaryB]

Needed some stuff at WalMart today, local ammo gouger was buying the last 3 boxes of M855. I picked up a box of 55 grain to add to the stash. As I came out the door he caught me and tried to sell me a box of the 62grain. "This stuff is magical armor piercing, it can go through 2 inches of steel and a bullet proof vest"... I looked at him and told him to quit smoking pot because he was having hallucinations, that stuff he was hawking bounces of windshields if it is not dead on, it is crappy accuracy from a 16 inch barrel and if I wanted some I would go home and load 1,000 rounds tailored to my rifle. He started in on me yet again and wanted $3 round, I told him I would never pay more than 35 cents a round for that junk, my main use for it is the brass for reloading. He still didn't get it through his skull until I told him I hoped he choked on the ammo because it was never selling for his price and walked off leaving him standing there sputtering.

[texaswoodworker]

Needed some stuff at WalMart today, local ammo gouger was buying the last 3 boxes of M855. I picked up a box of 55 grain to add to the stash. As I came out the door he caught me and tried to sell me a box of the 62grain. "This stuff is magical armor piercing, it can go through 2 inches of steel and a bullet proof vest"... I looked at him and told him to quit smoking pot because he was having hallucinations, that stuff he was hawking bounces of windshields if it is not dead on, it is crappy accuracy from a 16 inch barrel and if I wanted some I would go home and load 1,000 rounds tailored to my rifle. He started in on me yet again and wanted $3 round, I told him I would never pay more than 35 cents a round for that junk, my main use for it is the brass for reloading. He still didn't get it through his skull until I told him I hoped he choked on the ammo because it was never selling for his price and walked off leaving him standing there sputtering.

I hate people like that. They're so annoying.

[btroj]

They are annoying but they always find a market for what they are selling, both ammo and BS. They sell to a market that is neither informed nor interested in facts. They just need to find the right cell of mall ninjas and set a price.
i feel no sorrow for people who don't do the homework to know what something is really worth.

If I go to a car dealership and offer less than sticker price and they won't budge, is that gouging?

Can an someone please define what gouging is? What is an acceptable markup on goods? At what point does "no gouging" become price controls? Who determines what acceptable pricing is? Do we need a new govt agency?

I ask because we here so much about this alleged gouging yet nobody ever proposes a solution. I would like those in the know on gouging to let the rest of us know what needs to be done to stop it.

[Love Life]

Gouging is when you thumb somebody's eyeball out of the socket.

Anybody who overpays for M855 ammo or SS109 bullets is a fool. Especially when better, and cheaper, ammo is available by the case.

Hopefully my ranting and anecdotal rubbish has kept somebody from being taken to the cleaners trying to stock up on the stuff.

[btroj]

Let em stock up. A fool and his money are soon parted, how long has that been around?

[Blanco]

My Eenglitch am berry gooder.
CTD is more gooder, because because because, Because of the wonderful things they does.
CTD is local to where I live. I have seen employee/ owners of CTD at my local Wal Mart purchasing every round of ammunition they had coming in off of the trucks. I would rather do without.
They may be able to peddle their wares at scalpers prices, but as PT Barnum said ......

[jcwit]

Can an someone please define what gouging is? What is an acceptable markup on goods?


And here we have someone who asks the question.

When I worked in the hardware business way back in 1956 till 1971 we ran a markup over cost from 33% to 50%. In other words if an item cost $ .98 we sold it for $1.29 to possible $1.49. No markup when stock got low.

When I & my wife wan our own business from 1981 till I came down with cancer in 2001 we used the same markup on all purchased goods. I also had a small woodshop that generated goods (crafts) for retail sale. Had a hard time coming up with what to sell them for for conferred with a few other cabinet shops that I was friends with. The final consensus came to taking the cost of raw materials, which consisted of the following: Cost of the wood itself, cost of any screws, nails, or other hardware. No one could estimate the cost of stain or finish, sandpaper, or other materials to get to the finished product. Labor time was not, that's NOT factored in, neither was stain, sandpaper, or finish, tool sharpening, or other misc. expenses.


Cost of raw materials times 5 covered all other expenses, labor included and all items sold as fast as we could keep up, profit was fine, I guess. At least we ate well.

Was I gouging? I think not, all goods sold very well, and we lived with a moderate life style, in other words we were and still happy and satisfied.


This worked very well for our business model, YMMV, and it seems that many other sporting business models very as well, sadly.

[jcwit]

Is the above The American Way in todays world? Apparently not. Much like everything it boils down to how much can I get.

[Love Life]

Is the above The American Way in todays world? Apparently not. Much like everything it boils down to how much can I get.

I heart profit.

[btroj]

Ahh, how much can I get. Now THAT is important. It dictates that the consumer helps determine the price. If a seller has a price too high the seller never makes money as there are no buyers. Look at the guys at gunshows with the same over priced guns every year.
If a seller sets a high price and finds buyers is it gouging? No, just good business. The market could bear those prices.

Gouging is, as always, a matter of people wanting something but not having the will to pay the going price. If some are willing to pay the CTD price then you can either pay it or go without. Pretty simple really.

[Blanco]

You guys are argumenting too much.

[Love Life]

Since we are 7 pages in, and I didn't want anybody to miss it:

131967

Some cows just cuz':

131968

[Blanco]

But I think its really funny too
By the Way ... CTD is gouging prices on the ammo that Obammma banned.
Want to stir the Pot ?? lets start a heads up thread then turn it into a pissing match over economics and grammar....

[Love Life]

Glad you are the final say on whether or not CTD is gouging on a luxury item. I can move on now.

[jcwit]

Glad you are the final say on whether or not CTD is gouging on a luxury item. I can move on now.

Glad you finally realize that fact as well!

Now trot along!

[oldarkie]

Been a long winter aint it boys?

[jcwit]

For those who wonder about other retail operations.

http://www.entrepreneur.com/answer/221767


According to Integra Information Systems industry profiles, general line grocery merchant wholesalers make a gross margin of 13.11 percent on average--so they have a markup of 15 percent. Those are wholesalers, also called distributors, who buy in volume and sell to retailers. A gross margin of 13.11 percent means what they buy for $86.89 they sell for $100, so the markup is calculated by dividing $13.11 by $86.89.

Grocery stores in general have even smaller markup. Their gross margin is 10.47 percent on average, so their markup is 12 percent.

The data comes from inside Business Plan Pro (http://www.paloalto.com/business_plan_software), in industry research reports sourced from Integra Information Systems.

There you go folks!

[jcwit]

Been a long winter aint it boys?

That it has. And it seems its not over yet.

[Love Life]

McLaren needs to quit gouging.

[jcwit]

McLaren autos?

[Love Life]

Yeppity yep yep.

[RogerDat]

Hmmm interesting thread (except for the grammar part, that was just weird). I don't think demanding high prices for scarce resources is new enough to be considered the "American Way". Pretty sure there are recorded cases going back to when years had three digits. It is more about human nature than it is capitalism or free markets.

During times of scarcity some people show their better nature, some their worse nature. Same for businesses.

Wal-mart ships truck loads of bottled water to the aftermath of a tornado or hurricane as charity, this helps their public reputation. A business that jacks the price up just after a hurricane rightly gets the negative hit to their public reputation.

If one can buy item for a fair, reasonable (and yet still profitable) price and sell it to the desperate or uninformed or panic stricken for 6 times what was paid for it the unscrupulous will do just that, and human nature says there are unscrupulous people. Those in the know are buying fmj at reasonable prices and blowing off the green tip panic as nonsense. Paying more attention to the implications of the regulatory change than the price of one type of ammo makes sense.

I don't believe in a "law" to prevent stupid that one has to voluntarily get hurt by, other than the law of natural selection. I do support the right of public shaming for those that have earned it by their actions. I did not patronize or at gun show even look at any of the items where the .22 ammo was for sale at prices that were artificially high. Those were the people that make it so none of us can just go buy a box at the local stores because they make it their business to buy it all up from those stores.

Frankly I wish retailers would put a 500 round limit on .22 and powder sellers would limit the number of 1# containers of each powder one could purchase in a single order. Tired of watching 100's of those 1# bottles disappear 10 at a time from online inventory. Would rather more people got 4 of the 1# (needs met) and fewer people got 10 of the 1#. Then the market would settle down because the number of people with unmet needs would decline, removing them from the demand side. Tragedy of the commons is sometimes reflected in a common open market.

[jcwit]

Pretty labor intensive, not mass produced something like RR and quality Grandfather clocks.

Factor in the labor and all three may very well be an excellent buy.

Average auto assembly line makes 60 to 90 autos an hour, doubtful McLaren even comes close. LOL

[762 shooter]

I don't want to get you guys started up again, but how can prices be called gouging if the items sell?

Some think that one price is too high, and others gladly pay the same price to get it.

Hopefully no one would like for the amount of profit to be regulated. Maybe it's a FAIR SHARE issue?

762

[jcwit]

I don't want to get you guys started up again, but how can prices be called gouging if the items sell?




762

Simple, because fools and their money are soon parted.

Watch the man on the street ask passersby questions, then ask me that questions again.

BTW, Total production of the McLaren P1 is 375 units. LOL

[jcwit]

Another example? Remember how many "pet rocks were sold".

[Love Life]

I love when the terms "Needs", "Fair share", and "limits" are used in a conversation concerning luxury items.

[Love Life]

Pretty labor intensive, not mass produced something like RR and quality Grandfather clocks.

Factor in the labor and all three may very well be an excellent buy.

Average auto assembly line makes 60 to 90 autos an hour, doubtful McLaren even comes close. LOL

It's still gouging because I find the price distasteful. That's all there is to it.

[jcwit]

Save up some more, or get a better loan officer.

[Love Life]

Wefixmoney.com told me no.

[762 shooter]

That makes sense LL. Anything that I want and can't afford is gouging. I like it.

762

[jcwit]

That makes sense LL. Anything that I want and can't afford is gouging. I like it.

762

Don't put me in that category. I can afford it, just find it wrong for others.

Remember Match Ammo is still close to the same price point it was years ago.

[Love Life]

Remember Match Ammo is still close to the same price point it was years ago.

One of the good things to come from the cheap 22LR drought is that I have fully stocked my larder with premium match ammo and don't feel bad about it because it cost as much as bottom of the barrel plinking ammo. Sho' am good!!

[762 shooter]

My comment was extremely facetious.

762

[dakotashooter2]

Frankly I wish retailers would put a 500 round limit on .22 and powder sellers would limit the number of 1# containers of each powder one could purchase in a single order. Tired of watching 100's of those 1# bottles disappear 10 at a time from online inventory. Would rather more people got 4 of the 1# (needs met) and fewer people got 10 of the 1#. Then the market would settle down because the number of people with unmet needs would decline, removing them from the demand side. Tragedy of the commons is sometimes reflected in a common open market.

Most retailers are voluntarily doing this to hold on to their customer base but even when they do there is a lot of "straw purchasing " going on which is hard to stop. The solution to gouging is to not pay the price. Unfortunately some people have more money than brains and continue to feed the problem.................

[dtknowles]

You can argue the right and wrong of it but don't you think they should be free to "gouge" as they see fit and you should be free to choose to shop elsewhere and even bad mouth them as much as you want. I somebody is willing the pay their price for what ever reason then they should be free to do that as well.

You can even say that the government should stop them from "gouging" but don't be surprised if some people think you are a socialist for saying so.

Tim

[MtGun44]

Actually, Wal-Mart does follow this practice, or it would cease to exist. The simple
fact is that Wal-Mart is not being charged more for .22 ammo now by their
suppliers than they were a couple of years ago. So they aren't charging you and
me (or the secondary GunBroker marketing folks) more now.

The price increases at the gun shows and online are partially due to an added
layer of middle-men injecting themselves into the market - getting to Wal-Mart whenever
there is ammo and buying it all up, then redistributing it at a higher marked-up price.

Some of the shortage is due to large numbers of new shooters overrunning the
.22 LR ammo production capacity, which had largely stagnated for decades, but a
large portion is due to a LOT of folks putting 20-30 even 50 bricks in their ammo
storage rooms. I have talked to a number of people in the gun industry and the
consensus is that there was an almost perfect match of ammo production capacity
to .22 LR ammo use rate, and almost zero surge capability, and modest amounts
in warehouses. When the surge in demand came (panic buying, a LOT of new shooters
out there using it, and horders) there was no way to quickly ramp up production,
AND there was a legitimate business fear that if a huge amount of money was spent
on a new .22 LR ammo factory, it might be lying unused in a year if the surge was
temporary.

The actual price that Wal-Mart pays the ammo makers is the same as a couple
years ago, the only thing that has increased the prices that we see for .22 ammo at
the gun shows is the semi-artificial shortage of ammo.

The shooters who need it will pay the current prices, but since I still have plenty
on hand, stored up after the last shortage, I will not pay those prices. This is
good allocation of the scarce resource of .22 LR ammo, even if the scarcity is largely artificial
in root cause. If I was out of .22 LR ammo and really wanted to shoot some, I
would pay the prices. .22 ammo is AVAILABLE, it is just more expensive. Eventually,
the supply will catch up with the demand and the price will settle out to where
it has to be to cover the costs of materials (up), labor (up), shipping (oil is down,
maybe shipping will be lower?) and a profit margin, as always.

I LOVE the comment that the person hates CTD's "price gouging" because they
don't like their customer service. :bigsmyl2: That is an amazing twist of
"logic", almost sprained my smiler when I read that.

[dtknowles]

Most retailers are voluntarily doing this to hold on to their customer base but even when they do there is a lot of "straw purchasing " going on which is hard to stop. The solution to gouging is to not pay the price. Unfortunately some people have more money than brains and continue to feed the problem.................

I think it is presumptuous to label people as "some people have more money than brains and continue to feed the problem", you are free to do so but I find it closed minded as not everyone who pays "gouger" prices has the same motivation and even considers the situation a "problem" just another supply anomaly to be dealt with as appropriate. Some people will not buy and wait for things to change, others might not care to wait and might make limited purchases, others might feel it is a new normal and it might get worse so they buy all they can. Some may buy to resell, "straw purchasing" of ammo is not illegal, if you can even call it that.

The idea that if everyone just refused to buy the items from the "gougers" then things would go back to normal is just not realistic. First, if demand is really out stripping supply then even if nobody bought from gougers there still would not be any ammo on the shelf it would just all be sold at the more normal price to the people who back order or show up when it gets to the shelf. If the supply was adequate if the "gougers and horders" left the market, they your idea would work of you could get enough shooters to follow your example but people being people that is not going to happen so your proposed solution is just unworkable and unrealistic.

Tim

[MtGun44]

dtknowles - good post. It is silly to imagine that with the literally MILLIONS of new shooters
out there, that they wouldn't want AMMO. I know of at least 5 new shooters that fired not
a single round 5 years ago who go to the range every week and shoot 100 rds of .22 LR and
10-100 rds of centerfire pistol ammo. I have friends that tell me of many more, one family
shoots 200 rds of .380 most weekends in the summer and has a blast doing it. They owned
no guns 3 yrs ago.

Actually SOME PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT LEVELS OF NEED FOR ITEMS, relative to the cost.

We have had this discussion a number of times about eBay. One issue is that us Americans
see that a used item sold for more than we can get it at a local store or at MidSouth or something
and think "what an idiot to overpay for that". I have corresponded to folks from around the
world where the item is either ENTIRELY UNAVAILABLE locally at any price, or is marked up
due to shipping, huge import taxes and large dealer markups to maybe 3-4 times our retail
price.

Just check with European, Australian and New Zealand based shooters about what they have
to pay for powder, primer, brass, and everything else. They are not stupid, it is just more
expensive there, so they will pay more than we will for an item, when they can get it.

Folks will make highly personal decisions on what prices they are willing to pay at a particular
moment in time for a particular item. Second guessing this is pretty arrogant.

[MtGun44]

dakotashooter - I think there is a new layer of middlemen injecting themselves into the powder
and ammo market. They seem to be able to, at least temporarily, increase the shortage and
to profit from it by buying up and reselling ammo and powder. Irritating, no doubt. I think it
will shake out fairly soon, like in a year or two - well, that may not meet your definition of "soon" ;-)

Some of this comes from the new capability to advertise cheaply on the net. I bet many are
illegally shipping without hazmat, too.

[jcwit]

You can argue the right and wrong of it but don't you think they should be free to "gouge" as they see fit and you should be free to choose to shop elsewhere and even bad mouth them as much as you want. I somebody is willing the pay their price for what ever reason then they should be free to do that as well.

You can even say that the government should stop them from "gouging" but don't be surprised if some people think you are a socialist for saying so.

Tim

I suppose it's alright. But remember it is also hurting our sport in the end. How many 4-H groups have gone down in membership regarding the shooting sports? How many Boy/Girl scout camps have cut back or discontinued shooting sports. The list goes on and on.

We are lucky here where I live, we entered the lottery that CCI had a year or 2 ago and won. Our jr. shooters have more than enough but many do not.

So go ahead and support and feel that gougers/scalpers is all good business practices.

Regarding the increase in shooters, go back and read my former posts, I do not see it here, and I am on the BOD at ranges.

[fouronesix]

When pushing into a headwind of opposition, it's predictable yet always interesting to see the most common ploy of argument surface, "it's for the children". :)

[Elkins45]

"Gouging" isn't a term that can be legitimately applied to non-essential goods in a non-crisis situation. The correct term is "laughably overpriced" or perhaps "taking advantage of the artificial imposition of scarcity". I guess that just doesn't roll off the tongue like "gouging does.

I almost bought something from CTD a few years ago (I have since forgotten the item in question) but once shipping was added I just closed the browser window. That one experience ended my dealings with them.


So go ahead and support and feel that gougers/scalpers is all good business practices.

I don't think anyone consideres it a "good" business practice, just a legal one. The KY Attorney General prosecuted some gas station owners who raised their prices on the afternoon of 9-11-01. I'm Not holding my breath for prosecution of ammo resellers.

[jcwit]

When pushing into a headwind of opposition, it's predictable yet always interesting to see the most common ploy of argument surface, "it's for the children". :)

You should of course see first hand what the problem is. It's not "for the children" as you presume, it's for the future of our sport, sorry you can not comprehend that. I suppose you assume the sport will just continue without young and new members joining.

It's amazing how little some members here care for their fellow man when it comes to business practices.

Now before someone jumps on me about my giving to the jr. leagues etc., I am grandfathered into 2 of the ranges I belong to, in other words I pay no dues, however I donate to the youth groups twice what the dues are a year for the club.

[jcwit]

"Gouging" isn't a term that can be legitimately applied to non-essential goods in a non-crisis situation. The correct term is "laughably overpriced" or perhaps "taking advantage of the artificial imposition of scarcity". I guess that just doesn't roll off the tongue like "gouging does.





I don't think anyone consideres it a "good" business practice, just a legal one. The KY Attorney General prosecuted some gas station owners who raised their prices on the afternoon of 9-11-01. I'm Not holding my breath for prosecution of ammo resellers.

Well I guess that is an opinion.

However, from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:


Full Definition of GOUGEtransitive verb
1
: to scoop out with or as if with a gouge

2
a : to force out (an eye) with the thumb
b : to thrust the thumb into the eye of

3
: to subject to extortion or undue exaction : overcharge (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overcharge)




Doesn't say a thing about Non-essential goods, does it?

[dtknowles]

I suppose it's alright. But remember it is also hurting our sport in the end. How many 4-H groups have gone down in membership regarding the shooting sports? How many Boy/Girl scout camps have cut back or discontinued shooting sports. The list goes on and on.

We are lucky here where I live, we entered the lottery that CCI had a year or 2 ago and won. Our jr. shooters have more than enough but many do not.

So go ahead and support and feel that gougers/scalpers is all good business practices.

Regarding the increase in shooters, go back and read my former posts, I do not see it here, and I am on the BOD at ranges.

I don't remember saying that it is alright, I just said that it was not illegal, should not be made illegal and is a result of known causes and complaining and name calling will not change the situation. What are you proposing as a solution, government intervention, shooters boycotting of "gougers". I think I addressed those issues. You asked this question: "How many 4-H groups have gone down in membership regarding the shooting sports?" I don't know the answer, I don't know that there has been any reduction, do you? You also said "How many Boy/Girl scout camps have cut back or discontinued shooting sports." I assume it is a question and do you have the answer. Since ammo is available just at a higher price, the people involved should do what every nonprofit or other club does when they have funding problems, deal with it until things change.

Tim

[jcwit]

I don't remember saying that it is alright, I just said that it was not illegal, should not be made illegal and is a result of known causes and complaining and name calling will not change the situation.

Tim

Have I done any complaining? YOU BET! And not ashamed to say so.

Have I done any name calling? Don't believe so.

[jcwit]

What are you proposing as a solution, government intervention, shooters boycotting of "gougers". I think I addressed those issues.

Tim

Frankly I have no solution until society changes. At this time it is what it is which is too bad, very doubtful if I'll live long enough to see the change.

[Elkins45]

Well I guess that is an opinion.

However, from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:


Full Definition of GOUGE

transitive verb
1
: to scoop out with or as if with a gouge

2
a : to force out (an eye) with the thumb
b : to thrust the thumb into the eye of

3
: to subject to extortion or undue exaction : overcharge (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overcharge)




Doesn't say a thing about Non-essential goods, does it?

Merriam-Webster isn't a glossary of economic terms. But let's work with this definition since you went to the trouble to provide it.

Please tell me the exact price per round for the ammo in question above which extortion or overcharging occurs? I need to know so I can decide who needs to be shunned. If Wal-Mart has it for $0.25 per round than should I picket Midsouth if they charge $0.26?

If you are going to define gouging as overcharging then you are also going to need to define "over".

[jcwit]

You asked this question: "How many 4-H groups have gone down in membership regarding the shooting sports?" I don't know the answer, I don't know that there has been any reduction, do you? You also said "How many Boy/Girl scout camps have cut back or discontinued shooting sports." I assume it is a question and do you have the answer. Since ammo is available just at a higher price, the people involved should do what every nonprofit or other club does when they have funding problems, deal with it until things change.

Tim

At this point I have no idea how many will be affected this coming summer. The last couple of years it was brought on my states gun owners site, and it was way more than a few organastions.

Since ammo is just available at a higher price, it's still out of reach to camps and groups that are on a fixed budget, course I suppose each person could just do aiming exercises and fire 1 shot to pass.

[jcwit]

Merriam-Webster isn't a glossary of economic terms. But let's work with this definition since you went to the trouble to provide it.

Please tell me the exact price per round for the ammo in question above which extortion or overcharging occurs? I need to know so I can decide who needs to be shunned. If Wal-Mart has it for $0.25 per round than should I picket Midsouth if they charge $0.26?

If you are going to define gouging as overcharging then you are also going to need to define "over".

Would need to know what mfg. price and distributors pricing is to even attempt to delve into this.

remember WM has only upped the price a small amount.

[762 shooter]

Would need to know what mfg. price and distributors pricing is to even attempt to delve into this.

remember WM has only upped the price a small amount.

jcwit,

If you knew these parameters, how would you determine a correct percent of profit? I think you stated that you charged 35% to 50% over material costs to determine a retail price. And someone stated that Grocers typically make 13.11%. How do you come upon the magic number?

762

[jcwit]

jcwit,

If you knew these parameters, how would you determine a correct percent of profit? I think you stated that you charged 35% to 50% over material costs to determine a retail price. And someone stated that Grocers typically make 13.11%. How do you come upon the magic number?

762

Better go back and reread my posts.

[dtknowles]

At this point I have no idea how many will be affected this coming summer. The last couple of years it was brought on my states gun owners site, and it was way more than a few organastions.

Since ammo is just available at a higher price, it's still out of reach to camps and groups that are on a fixed budget, course I suppose each person could just do aiming exercises and fire 1 shot to pass.

I don't know enough about how the 4H and Scouts handle the shooting sports to make a comprehensive proposal but since you can surely buy ammo for three times what is previously cost they could shoot a third as much for the same price assuming the total costs are ammo. Since there are other costs I would think they would not have to cut back the shooting to a third. Why is the budget fixed for shooting, is the budget fixed for all activities. Could the shooting activities be modified to use Pellet Guns instead of .22. That should allow for a lot more shooting or maybe a mix of .22 and pellet guns. Don't you think your idea of aiming exercises and shooting a single shot was silly?

Tim

[762 shooter]

I read all the posts. Must be hidden.

762

[jcwit]

I read all the posts. Must be hidden.

762

My post #134.

Read it carefully!

[jcwit]

I don't know enough about how the 4H and Scouts handle the shooting sports to make a comprehensive proposal but since you can surely buy ammo for three times what is previously cost they could shoot a third as much for the same price assuming the total costs are ammo. Since there are other costs I would think they would not have to cut back the shooting to a third. Why is the budget fixed for shooting, is the budget fixed for all activities. Could the shooting activities be modified to use Pellet Guns instead of .22. That should allow for a lot more shooting or maybe a mix of .22 and pellet guns. Don't you think your idea of aiming exercises and shooting a single shot was silly?

Tim

Ya, we know, as far as the 4-H & Scouts, money is no object, never ending funds to draw upon.

As I said we are lucky in my county as we have applied and won one of the CCI lottery's. We're set for a while. FYI, we have the largest shooting sports group in 4-H in the state.

All of the rifles are single shot BTW. You can not even detect a little sarcasm????????????????????????

Can you imagine 500+ kids pumping pellet guns, By By kids.

[dtknowles]

Ya, we know, as far as the 4-H & Scouts, money is no object, never ending funds to draw upon.

As I said we are lucky in my county as we have applied and won one of the CCI lottery's. We're set for a while. FYI, we have the largest shooting sports group in 4-H in the state.

All of the rifles are single shot BTW. You can not even detect a little sarcasm????????????????????????

Can you imagine 500+ kids pumping pellet guns, By By kids.

If you are being sarcastic you might consider using purple font or an emoticon. If you don't like the idea of pumping pellet guns, Crossman makes some nice CO2 guns that are still cheap to buy and shoot.

Tim

[jcwit]

If you don't like the idea of pumping pellet guns, Crossman makes some nice CO2 guns that are still cheap to buy and shoot.

Tim

Has nothing to do with what I like.

[jcwit]

If you are being sarcastic you might consider using purple font or an emoticon.

Tim

Its pretty obvious, most anyone should be able to pick up on it, sorry you didn't.

[kopperl]

Found out today that CTD no longer exist. Bought out moved and name changed. Got a little irate when asked if they were CTD.
Now Texas Guns if I got it right.

[MaryB]

I know the walmart gouger I ran into is sitting on over 100,000 rounds of 22lr and nobody in the area will buy from him. They all told him to take a hike. He will probably start hitting gun shows next... He was bragging he had 5k rounds of M855 and I know he is going to eat it or shoot it himself because nobody local will buy from him. He is not a member of the local gun range and has no family out in the country so no clue where he shoots or if he shoots. This is a rural area, want to make your name mud his business practice is a great way to do it! Word spreads fast and far!

[dtknowles]

Its pretty obvious, most anyone should be able to pick up on it, sorry you didn't.

Technically if you were making a joke and not serious, in this case you were being facetious not sarcastic. I am sorry that I did not give you credit for your humor, I thought you were just being stupid.

Tim

[RogerDat]

It does not take laws. Boycott (go back and count how many won't do business with CTD), public shunning, shaming, taking to social media (such as this forum) to let others know what a poor neighbor a business is.

Theory discussion on market springs forth from a OP of these guys are jerks for jacking prices up and they have poor service to boot.

Hmmm wonder if there is a market for a "Boycott Ammo Scalpers" buttons and t-shirts? I know I got t-shirt for Christmas that says due to the high price of ammo no warning shot will be fired. Got to love someone that has found a way to provide a new item of value out of the messed up prices.

[dtknowles]

I know the walmart gouger I ran into is sitting on over 100,000 rounds of 22lr and nobody in the area will buy from him. They all told him to take a hike. He will probably start hitting gun shows next... He was bragging he had 5k rounds of M855 and I know he is going to eat it or shoot it himself because nobody local will buy from him. He is not a member of the local gun range and has no family out in the country so no clue where he shoots or if he shoots. This is a rural area, want to make your name mud his business practice is a great way to do it! Word spreads fast and far!

He could probably dump it on GunBroker if he has not a bad rep there too.

Tim

[MaryB]

Think he got banned form there, not a guy I would trust with my cash...

[texaswoodworker]

It does not take laws. Boycott (go back and count how many won't do business with CTD), public shunning, shaming, taking to social media (such as this forum) to let others know what a poor neighbor a business is.

THIS. This is the entire point of this thread. NOTHING else. As much as it's been perverted into a completely different discussion, this is still the sole intent of this thread.

[MtGun44]

I keep seeing this "non-essential" caveat. That is totally wrong. The more essential,
the more important it is that prices are reflecting shortages and increasing where there
is a real crisis and severe shortage.

As Dr. Williams pointed out, price increases ensure that the scarce commodity is not wasted,
but is used as frugally as possible, like the case where the hotel room prices increased as there
were people evacuated from a hurricane. The price increases encourage people to double up and
get as many people into each room, leaving more rooms available for others, possibly getting
twice as many people into the hotel as might have been possible otherwise. Better to sleep
outside or pay extra for a room? Your choice - but with the 'pay extra', maybe twice as many people are
probably going to be inside. Another example is a gas shortage for a day or two near a
crisis site. If the prices increase, each user will likely buy the minimum that they HAVE TO have,
and this will leave more for everyone else, partially alleviating the shortage. If the price
is normal, everyone will fill his or her tank, and some folks will get none.

Pricing based on demand is GOOD, both stretching the existing supply farther and
causing a more rapid increase in supply of the scarce material, which is desired.
Why do people often drive truckloads of badly needed goods, for example bottled
water, generators, ice, etc. to disaster areas? A few are good hearted folks with deep
pockets, but more are folks willing to take time away from home, drive long distances
overnight and set up a sales location in an empty parking lot because they can make
a bunch of money - which will also help the folks that need these items very much.

Which is better no generators or generators that are marked up 30%? How about
no water or $2 a gallon instead of $1 a gallon? If I REALLY needed either
one, I know which is the answer.

LOL! Shaming CTD for high prices? I really can't possibly care less what someone ELSE thinks
of their prices - I need to see what I think of the prices. Too high, I will not buy. Good deal, I will
order, regardless if someone else thinks it is a good deal or not.

I will closely listen to people that have bad customer service with a company, and compare it with
other people's experiences (some folks couldn't get along with Mother Teresa) and with my
own experience with the company.

[TXGunNut]

I visited the FW CTD over 15 years ago. Staff was rude, condescending and basically clueless. Half the stuff I bought turned out to be junk. Haven't been back since. Yes, I hold a grudge. Still won't buy Exxon gas because of Valdez. CTD's prices don't matter to me but quite obviously my business doesn't matter to them, they seem to be doing just fine.
If I was convinced a certain person would be our next president I'd empty my retirement account and buy all the guns and ammo I could get my hands on. Then I'd be a model capitalist and anything said about gouging would merely sound like sour grapes to me.

[jcwit]

I keep seeing this "non-essential" caveat. That is totally wrong. The more essential,
the more important it is that prices are reflecting shortages and increasing where there
is a real crisis and severe shortage.

As Dr. Williams pointed out, price increases ensure that the scarce commodity is not wasted,
but is used as frugally as possible, like the case where the hotel room prices increased as there
were people evacuated from a hurricane. The price increases encourage people to double up and
get as many people into each room, leaving more rooms available for others, possibly getting
twice as many people into the hotel as might have been possible otherwise. Better to sleep
outside or pay extra room? Your choice - but with the pay extra, twice as many people are
probably going to be inside.

Pricing based on demand is GOOD, and will cause a rapid increase in supply of the scarce
material, which is desired. Why do people often drive truckloads of badly needed goods,
water, generators, ice, etc. to disaster areas? A few are good hearted folks with deep
pockets, but more are folks willing to take time away from home, drive long distances
overnight and set up a sales location in an empty parking lot because they can make
a bunch of money - which will also help the folks that need these items very much.

Which is better no generators or generators that are marked up 30%? If I REALLY needed
one, I know which is the answer.

LOL! Shaming CTD for high prices? I really can possibly care less what you think of their
prices - I need to see what I think of the prices. Too high, I will not buy. Good deal, I will
order, regardless if someone else thinks it is a good deal or not.

I will listen to people that have bad customer service with a company, and compare it with
other people's opinions (some folks couldn't get along with Mother Teresa) and with my
own experience with the company.

Its a good thing you are not running the economy or a chain of big box stores.

[jcwit]

THIS. This is the entire point of this thread. NOTHING else. As much as it's been perverted into a completely different discussion, this is still the sole intent of this thread.

No argument from me here.

[MtGun44]

LOL! People like me ARE running them, meaning people that understand
economics, supply and demand, etc.

If not they would be GONE.

[btroj]

My father in law likes to say that business's business is business.

I wouldn't runa store like a charity, I would run it like I wanted to make a profit. If you aren't in it to make money then you won't last long.

I would want someone just like Bill to run a store. He knows why he is there.

[762 shooter]

My post #134.

Read it carefully!

I read that.

That was a very specific case of how you determined an acceptable profit for your small business that did not include smaller expenditures or labor on certain goods.

That is your business model for determining profit for another persons business???

762

[coffeeguy]

Something stinks here...Look at the price in the pic for the 100-round drum mag from texaswoodworker's original post on this thread. Now, here's the same item, from today at 4 PM Eastern time:
132061 That price is a LOT less that what was shown in the pic he posted...Look for yourselves. Plenty of AR-15 magazines at normal prices, 6-8 bucks each, and normal prices on ammo. That said, in the past couple of years, I had a local shop selling 5.56 for $1 per round, and guess what? I didn't buy it. Neither will I pay $7-plus for 50 rounds of .22 LR ammo.

Second thing, he mentioned that a proposed ban of M855 was 'unconstitutional'. I'm curious as to what part of the Constitution is being violated, and how... Just sayin'.

[texaswoodworker]

Something stinks here...Look at the price in the pic for the 100-round drum mag from texaswoodworker's original post on this thread. Now, here's the same item, from today at 4 PM Eastern time:
132061 That price is a LOT less that what was shown in the pic he posted...Look for yourselves. Plenty of AR-15 magazines at normal prices, 6-8 bucks each, and normal prices on ammo. That said, in the past couple of years, I had a local shop selling 5.56 for $1 per round, and guess what? I didn't buy it. Neither will I pay $7-plus for 50 rounds of .22 LR ammo.

Second thing, he mentioned that a proposed ban of M855 was 'unconstitutional'. I'm curious as to what part of the Constitution is being violated, and how... Just sayin'.

If you'd actually READ my original post, you'll see that I clearly said that pic was from the last time they pulled this stunt.


Do not allow them to get away with this. We as a shooting community must take a stand against businesses who do this. If you'll recall, this is not the first time CTD has attempted this sort of thing (pics of their past transgressions at end of post). They even went as far as taking all their AR-15 and other modern sporting rifles off the shelf just to please the anti gunners after the Sandy Hook tragedy. With so many reputable businesses that put their customers before profit such as Midway USA, MidSouth Shooter's Supply, and Graf and Sons, why support a business that has clearly shown that they don't care about you, just your money? Send them an email, and let them know you will no longer support their business. Make sure they know exactly why. Feel free to post this on every gunforum you come across. Post it on facebook. Tell your family and friends. CTD is NOT a friend of the shooting community.

As for the the ban being unconstitutional. What part of "SHALL NOT INFRINGE" is not clear to you? This is clearly an attempt to make ammo harder to get since they cannot get away with banning the guns the ammo is meant for.

[coffeeguy]

Fair enough, you did indeed say 'pics of their past transgressions'. I sit corrected, and I was unfair in saying that 'something stinks'...I shouldn't have assumed anything about your motive.

Now, regarding 'shall not be infringed', it is plenty clear to me. I've got over 19 years in the military, am still serving, and seriously meant it every time I've re-taken the oath to 'Support and Defend the Constitution', etcetera, etcetera. It is the 'right of the People to keep and bear arms' which is protected against infringement, but even then we have certain restrictions in place. I can't just go out and buy a Hellfire missile, hand grenades, nuclear warheads or the like, all of which are 'arms'. That said, BATFE is just like anyone else; give them an inch and they'll take a yard. They're splitting hairs with the proposed ban, as are you...but that's your opinion (and your right) and I respect it.

Getting back on track, CTD is certainly guilty of charging exorbitant prices from time to time and I'm certainly not a fan of theirs. But to refer to your original post, the only we can 'allow' them to 'get away with' what they're doing is to actually pay the price they're charging. We are a (mostly) free country, and businesses are allowed to charge what they want for their products; we have no more right to tell CTD what to charge for M855 than anyone has a right to say that you cannot get paid more than 'x' number of dollars per hour for whatever work it is that you do. There are just too many retailers out there and in cases like this I wouldn't even waste my time sending an email to CTD expressing my dissatisfaction; I'd rather spend that time placing an order somewhere else. You ARE doing a good thing, though, by passing along word of what CTD is doing, and it's much appreciated.

[MaryB]

Shall not be infringed applies to the militia AKA foot soldiers and those are the type of arms we should have unlimited access to.

[texaswoodworker]

Shall not be infringed applies to the militia AKA foot soldiers and those are the type of arms we should have unlimited access to.

THIS. IIRC, this is stated in the Federalist Papers. The founders wanted people to be at least as well armed as the average soldier. That does not include hellfire missiles and nukes obviously. It does include ARs/M4s, M855 ammo, and even fully automatic arms though. There are restriction in place, but that does not mean that those restrictions are legal.

[texaswoodworker]

I'd rather spend that time placing an order somewhere else. You ARE doing a good thing, though, by passing along word of what CTD is doing, and it's much appreciated.

Thank you. :)

BTW, thank you for your service.

[dtknowles]

THIS. IIRC, this is stated in the Federalist Papers. The founders wanted people to be at least as well armed as the average soldier. That does not include hellfire missiles and nukes obviously. It does include ARs/M4s, M855 ammo, and even fully automatic arms though. There are restriction in place, but that does not mean that those restrictions are legal.

That would include gernades and grenade launchers and maybe even RPG's and Stingers.

Tim

[texaswoodworker]

That would include gernades and grenade launchers and maybe even RPG's and Stingers.

Tim

When can I expect my shipment of hand grenades to come in the mail?

[MaryB]

All should be legal with no tax stamps, no special background checks, no special permits...


That would include gernades and grenade launchers and maybe even RPG's and Stingers.

Tim

[Love Life]

I'd love to be able to mount a 40mm grenade launcher on my M4. It would look something like this:

[perotter]

That would include gernades and grenade launchers and maybe even RPG's and Stingers.
Tim
One just has to look at the adjutant general reports of what personal arms the militiamen supplied here and what are currently used by current effective militias today to get an idea as to what arms we have a duty to keep and bear.

One will find that when there were organized state militias here this did include crew serviced arm such as artillery. Currently the easiest militia to check is the NDF. They have GP machine guns, light machine guns, grenades, AK and RPG. I doubt they have Stingers, but then their enemy doesn't have aircraft.

[dragon813gt]

Can an someone please define what gouging is? What is an acceptable markup on goods?

This is our standard markup in the HVAC trade. All companies in the area use something close to these numbers.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa39/dragon813gt/Mobile/FB3FB8E4-A809-40DC-AED7-442C2576453A.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/dragon813gt/media/Mobile/FB3FB8E4-A809-40DC-AED7-442C2576453A.jpg.html)

Every part has a ten percent markup for handling on top of the multiplier. The .06 in the equation is PA sales tax. I'm sure a lot of people would consider these markup rates gouging.

[jcwit]

Aren't you glad your local grocer doesn't use the above parts multiplier list.

Or your local garage either.

[coffeeguy]

It could, but it's all relative...and people forget that it's not just about the parts cost; it's about salaries, overhead, etcetera. Some people might only want to pay the supplier's cost for an item, but those same people expect raises and above-average pay for their work; that comes from someone buying THEIR employer's product with a markup in price. They can't always have it both ways.

There's a LGS near me which changed management several years ago and no longer deals fairly, but many folks still shop there because of the "my daddy shopped there, and his daddy shopped there", etc syndrome. I commented once on their $8.99 .22 LR ammo, to which the clerk just said, "Supply and demand". I replied, "Word of mouth can make or break a business"... Sure, if someone is the only game in town, they can charge what they want, but for an outfit like CTD to act like they're the only game in town is ridiculous. I think some places take advantage of customers' habits, but if we the customers take a little time to do comparison shopping elsewhere it helps even out the marketplace. You'd be surprised at how much profit a lot of the larger companies make from their shipping charges, for example; as such if my LGS stocks something I'd rather pay a slightly higher price than online, pay NO shipping (except maybe my gasoline to drive there), support local business and usually STILL save a few bucks.

[jcwit]

Little wonder WalMart is so large.

Or that we have turned into a throw away society.

[dragon813gt]

Aren't you glad your local grocer doesn't use the above parts multiplier list.

Or your local garage either.

So just out of curiosity. How much do you think it costs to keep one of our vans on the road per hour? How much is the overhead to keep our sheet metal shop and offices running? How much profit does our company make? We are one of the larger companies in the area w/ tens of thousands of customers and struggle to turn more than a 3% profit.

Everyone expects to pay wholesale prices for the part. And then they think your labor is only worth $20 an hour at most. It doesn't work that way. Garages have markups close to what I posted. Half an hour brake job costs $350 for $40 in parts. That's what flat rate gets you. Which is how we bill as well. The sheet I posted is rarely used because all the pricing has been figured out in advance.

[jcwit]

Garages have markups close to what I posted. Half an hour brake job costs $350 for $40 in parts. That's what flat rate gets you.

Oh Really??

Within the last 6 months I had new brakes put on my wifes car. Garage allowed me to furnish the parts.
Parts $65.54 + $4.59 sls tx
Labor $133.13

Last month I had my auto's front end realigned $49.99
Replace intake manifold gasket
Part$5.62 + $ .39 sls tx
Labor for install $75.00

All repairs done by ASA Certified Shop & Mechanics.

Looks like you need to look for another shop.

[jcwit]

So just out of curiosity. How much do you think it costs to keep one of our vans on the road per hour?


No idea, but how often do you replace a van and at what mileage?

[dragon813gt]

It was a general price. No garage around here let's you supply your own parts. The ones that do aren't on the up an up. Check dealership prices. They are more comparable to what I do for a living because I represent the manufacturer.

As far as vans they are leased through a fleet management program. It works out to be substantially cheaper then buying new and running them until they are to expensive to repair. That was usually around 175,000 miles. At that point they were beat up and weren't very presentable to customers.

[jcwit]

It was a general price. No garage around here let's you supply your own parts. The ones that do aren't on the up an up. Check dealership prices. They are more comparable to what I do for a living because I represent the manufacturer.



Not on the up & up?

well the shop I referred to has been in business longer than I have been alive, and I'm 71, under different owner of course. The current owner of the shop has had it for approx. 50 years, so yes it a shop on the up & up.

I refuse to have any work done by the "stealerships", I consider myself smarter than that with my funds. Something to do with a lifetime as a buyer, purchasing agent, procurement officer. Started doing that at age 14. Ended with the largest RV manufacturer in the U.S., as Director of Purchasing for one of their divisions.

[jcwit]

As far as vans they are leased through a fleet management program. It works out to be substantially cheaper then buying new and running them until they are to expensive to repair. That was usually around 175,000 miles. At that point they were beat up and weren't very presentable to customers.

So the leasing company makes no money from leasing vans to your company? OOOOOOOOOOOoook.

[dragon813gt]

Hey JCWit, don't put words in my mouth. Where did I say the leasing company makes no money? I said it's cheaper for us to lease then own. It wasn't a financial decision we took lightly. Especially when you consider the amount of time it takes the techs to swap their stock and tools over to a new van. That's a lost day of revenue per tech.

I also never said the shop you deal w/ isn't on the up and up. I sometimes wonder about your reading comprehension. I was talking about ones by me. And let me know how that small shop does when it comes to coding clusters and keys for a new vehicle. The dealerships are necessary for certain repairs. And will be more so in the future.

I think it's funny that people call them stealerships. Yet another example of people wanting something for nothing. Profit seems to be a dirty word around here anymore.

[Love Life]

Profit...well, it wasn't bleeped out like the "C" word used as another word for doo doo.

[jcwit]

I also never said the shop you deal w/ isn't on the up and up. I sometimes wonder about your reading comprehension. I was talking about ones by me. And let me know how that small shop does when it comes to coding clusters and keys for a new vehicle. The dealerships are necessary for certain repairs. And will be more so in the future.



My reading comprehension is very well thank you very much. I thought about that when I wrote the post but decided to put it the way I did anyway.

BTW, it's jcwit not JCWIT.

[jcwit]

I think it's funny that people call them stealerships. Yet another example of people wanting something for nothing. Profit seems to be a dirty word around here anymore.

How is saving myself some cash wanting something for nothing?

Your logic is flawed.


And let me know how that small shop does when it comes to coding clusters and keys for a new vehicle.

No idea, in 56 years of car ownership never had a need for it. Seriously doubt I ever will. Therefore it's of little to no concern to me.

[jcwit]

Hey JCWit, don't put words in my mouth. Where did I say the leasing company makes no money? I said it's cheaper for us to lease then own. It wasn't a financial decision we took lightly. Especially when you consider the amount of time it takes the techs to swap their stock and tools over to a new van. That's a lost day of revenue per tech.




Ya Right, whatever you say. But in reality your company needs to do more research. Leasing is little more than renting, and it is always cheaper to own.

But YYMV! LOL

[dragon813gt]

Thanks for the words of wisdom JcWit. So how many fleets of vehicles have you had to run in your life. We have sixty three vans as well as pickups, box trucks and stake bodies. Only the stake bodies are bought. They last well over a decade. Each van averages 30,000+ miles a year. Since no matter what we would have payments to buy the vehicles plus repair costs is makes financial sense to lease them and turn them in every two to three years. Payments are leas and the fleet is never more than a few years old. But I'm glad you've told me the financial analysis we spent close to year examining is wrong. I will make appropriate changes. Thanks jCwiT :beer:

[jcwit]

dragon813qt whats your problem with screen names, I respect yours, you can not do the same.


The RV company I worked for was the largest in the U.S. at the time. We had plants in 6 states from coast to coast & boarder to boarder. The fleet numbered in the hundreds, the whole spectrum from tractor-trailers to sedans. All were owned, none rented or leased.

[Alvarez Kelly]

One size fits all I guess. Once again... Pompous.

[dragon813gt]

I apologize for taking this thread off course. I simply wanted to post what a standard markup sheet looked like since Brad asked about what was acceptable. I don't apologize to JCwiT :laugh:

[jcwit]

One size fits all I guess. Once again... Pompous.

Not hard considering.

[jcwit]

:razz:Decided to delete my post, and rise above. After all I'm pompous!:p:p

[texaswoodworker]

:p

http://mexicosolidarity.org/sites/default/files/images/popcornhk.gif

[jcwit]

:p

http://mexicosolidarity.org/sites/default/files/images/popcornhk.gif

Cool! I like it.

[RogerDat]

Well well well. Over 225 posts because someone pointed out CTD has pricing practices that stink like manure in a plastic bag on a hot day. Two observations, free speech is alive and well, if you ever need a soap box there are plenty of us who have one to loan.

[smilie=p: This is a public service emoticon so that folks won't take me too serious, lord knows I don't take myself too serious, been married long enough wife broke me of that habit.

[Bad Water Bill]

Their pricing was never my reason for posting here,as they can charge whatever they want.

Back in 2006 we had a warning about them selling ammo that was very dangerous.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?9570-Surplus-Korean-06-Blow-up

And here

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=194987&highlight=Korean+ammunition#post194987

I remember there was at least one more discussion where someone posted photos of the cut away of a case and it showed the plug of a solid green substance starting from BELOW the shoulder up to the base of the bullet.

Most here today never saw that warning so I have posted this as a warning as to the quality of what Cheaper Than Dirt sells.

I NEVER FORGET.

At least the dangerous stuff.

[Blanco]

Green stuff = Bullet Boogers
Don't choot dem