12 Gauge .678" Nose Pour Hollow base

[jmort]

Have a group buy discussion started at NOE forum and will start one here.

Really would like to get a .678" 12 gauge slug that would fit a standard wad. Hollow base nose pour. Something like Lee Minie but beefed up to .678". What say you all?

MOLD 575-470-M
Lee Single Cavity Mold produces a .575 diameter 470 grain Minie bullet.






http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/Themes/default/images/icons/modify_inline.gifhttp://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=650.0;attach=394;i mage

[longbow]

Are you thinking for rifled gun or smoothbore? If for rifled gun nose heavy design for drag stabilization is not an issue but of course for smoothbore it is.

What about weight? I suspect if you scale that up to 0.678" it will weigh 600 grs. + depending on hollow cavity size.

I guess my comment on that design is that I do not really like the wadcutter nose. I am very partial to the TC design that turbo1889 came up with that bikerbeans posted here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?261267-10ga-foster-slugs

post #6.

That design sized and tapered to fit into a "standard" shotcup would suit me.

Sorry, I guess that's not what you are asking here. Let's start with design for rifled or smoothbore and weight then see where that gets us.

Longbow

[jmort]

"Let's start with design for rifled or smoothbore and weight then see where that gets us."

I am a monkey with a hand-grenade. Yes that makes sense. I just wanted to kick this off. I want a hollow base slug .678" that fits in a standard wad and works for "rifled or smoothbore." I not stuck on any style, just want something that works. If we can get 10 people that want a .678" hollow base slug that fits a standard wad then we are good. Who would not want that?

http://accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/catalogue/73-900S.png

[bikerbeans]

jmort,

I think the wider the meplat the better if you plan on roll crimping, otherwise you have to deal with the roll crimper contacting the bullet nose before the crimp is complete. The pointy design also uses more of the hull when crimping unless you add a spacer.

BTW, did you sell some of the letters from your screen name to buy reloading supplies?:bigsmyl2:

BB

[jmort]

I agree, but rather than have to do a one off, I would like to get a group buy going. Yes, that was two vowels' worth of reloading supplies.

http://accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/catalogue/73-900F.png

[Hogtamer]

couple of questions....what is a "standard" wad cup? So many to choose from. what would make this different or special from a lee key, lyman 525, foster, etc as far as performance and accuracy?
Better than a .735 Rb?

[jmort]

Lee and Lyman use standard wads, Winchester, Remington etc. Standard = cheap off the shelf. Not an expensive $.50 "sabot" Is it better than ... whatever, I don't know, I hope so. We don't have it available unless I get the Lee or Lyman. I just want something that fits a cheap wad and .678" should do it. At around 650 grains, we would be about 1 1/2 ounces. I suppose I could just get the Lyman 525 and call it a day, but I think we can do better.

[longbow]

I'll stick with the comment that I do not like the wadcutter design. I think a TC or RNFP would provide better ballistics and be more stable.

I cannot say for sure but I have been told that the Lyman sabot slug has too large a meplat and can become unstable when shot from a smoothbore as it goes transonic. Not a problem for a rifled gun.

I agree with BB on too much nose being a bad thing and the pic in post #3 is probably a bit much. I refer back to the turbo design for nose shape though adding a shoulder to open the crimp would not be a bad thing... so something between post #3 and post #5 but with a flatter shoulder.

As for "standard" wad, right you are Hogtamer. However, a slug with a nose diameter of from 0.675" to 0.680" and a base of around 0.665" to 0.670" should account for the tapered petals most shotcups have. Of course exact fit will depend on slug/wad/bore sizes. For smoothbore maybe not so critical and a bit undersize might be good, but for rifled gun you would want an exact fit.

Unless someone wants to develop several load recipes for slugs over 550 grs. I prefer to stay between 1 oz. and 525 grs. There are lots of 1 oz. load recipes and 525 gr. recipes for the Lyman sabot slug but not much when one gets into the heavyweights. Personal preference on my part. The main reasons I opted out of the last A.C.E. 12 ga. slug group buy was weight, too much meplat and a design I did not think good for smoothbore.

just my thoughts.

Longbow

[jmort]

I think a RNFP would be nice. There is a lot of 1 1/2 ounce data. So that should be doable. I believe we can get a design. We just need 10 people/orders.

http://accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/catalogue/62-550B.png

[Hogtamer]

Something proven is what I'd like. everyone likes these for performance and would like 1000 @ $.30 each complete! full bore RB sized and shaped with attached wad.
PS: made to fit in full choke smooth bore so that I could shoot my good buckshot loads interchangeably. My dream.
PSS: While I'm dreaming....gas operated semi-auto with detachable red dot, 2 3/4 - 3" chamber...say I'm turkey hunting loaded with #4s, get on a drove of hogs in a field. Shuck the 4's and load with slugs. kill 2 hogs in fields and the rest hit the swamp. Shuck the slugs and load w/buckshot and stalk the hogs. maybe hit the trap range later in the week, same gun w/ 7 1/2 shot minus the red dot. Come fall, same gun to the duck blind. Or the deer stand with slugs again.

[Greg5278]

I've messed around with the slug in Wad Concept a good bit. Using standard Wads, will give inconsistent Results. Mostly you'll end up with Sheared off Petasl and Poor acccuracy in most Guns. Wads are rarely the same Thickness around the Diameter.
I made up a designfor the CSD Wads from BPI/Gualandi. It uses a .660" slug and can be a discarding or attached Wad Design. Before getting some others to part with money on something Unproven, try 1 mold first.
PM Me and I'll see if I can set you up with some of Mine.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[jmort]

I don't to waste time and money of other people on something that is a unicorn. I will send you a PM and will go it alone. I am interested to know if you got the .660 slug to work at an acceptable level?

[Greg5278]

I did get the .660 to work. I tried several different Designs, Solid, HP, and HB. They all shot pretty consistently in my Guns. One Person tried Them, but said They didn't group. James Gates posted a Pic of the Slug in the CSD Wad I mentioned.
Over the Years, I've put plenty of $$$ into getting a slug to shoot well in a rifled Shotgun. A few Things that I noticed were:
Hollow base Slugs often shot worse in Rifled Bore Guns than Solids or HP.
Round Balls tended to be better in Smoothbores.
Most Factory Lead shot Wads will give inconsistent Results.
Wheelweight or harder Alloy seemed to work better than Pure Lead.
Slugs with a Shoulder or SWC Design tended to engrave off center.

Your Experience my not be the same, but I put out what has worked most of the Time. I've freely shared my Loading Data, some of which is Pressure Tested. Ask Longbow about His Experiences, He tried alot of the same Ideas that I Had.
Greg
AKA 12Bore

[longbow]

Greg:

Good to see you posting again! It has been a while. How are you? Any progress on your projects? If you need a hand, let me know, I will do what I can.

Yeah, I have launched a lot of lead downrange over the years and am still looking for something to provide consistent 6" to 8" groups at 100 yards from smoothbore. I haven't tried everything yet but I have tried lots. It is hard to beat round balls to 50 yards or so in smoothbore but trying to get something to group consistently at 100 yards is a whole different ball game.

I do believe it is doable and not even that hard to accomplish but so far I have not found a way to do it "easily" as in with a practical/acceptable amount of work per projectile. I guess that is the real stumbling block. I am not willing to spend more than a few minutes on each projectile so if it requires 20 to 30 minutes of machining each ~ forget it!

Anyway, hopefully we get some direction here and make some progress.

I am thinking that bore size slugs will be easier to get to shoot well but I do like the convenience of loading slugs into wads (laziness on my part). Proper sabots may well work but I have to think they would be custom order and expensive (I'm cheap too).

I am about to embark on casting and testing some full bore slugs based on turbo's design but for 12 ga. I was impressed with bikerbean's results in 10 ga.

That is not what we are talking about here though so I should stop typing.

Longbow

[Greg5278]

Jmort, I'm trying to keep others from wasting Money on things I've tried. I'm not of the Mindset, that just because it is safe to fire, it's a good Load. The easiest Slug for Accuracy is the Full bore Solid. I've fired 10 shot groups of around 1" with Open sights at 50 Yards.
Unfortunately the Weight tends to be pretty heavy, around 700+ Grains. You could HP the Solid to reduce the weight.

Alot of the HB designs are pretty fragile, and break up on impact with Game.
Shotgun Chambers allow a great deal of wobble that is not conducive to good Accuracy. I had a Custom Reamer made to cut a minimum tolerance Chamber without a Forcing Cone. It makes a big difference. I'm happy to Help if I can with your Project.
I have a bunch of different Slugs Cast and just laying around.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[jmort]

"Jmort, I'm trying to keep others from wasting Money on things I've tried."

"I'm happy to Help if I can with your Project."

I agree. I have given up on the idea and intend to go it alone. I would be a fool to ignore the advice and experience of members like yourself and others like Longbow. I appreciate your input and will, for sure, need your help. I am going to rethink this in light of your experience. How much does your .660" solid weigh? I would like to keep the weight down, keep the wad, and consider a solid, or hollow-point or a thick skirted hollow-base.
Thanks

[longbow]

I like Greg's CSD wad idea. I should order some of those to try. I can make up whatever slug diameter to suit.

I did try some wads I got that had a cushion leg that looked a lot like what is under a Gualandi DGS slug but they failed miserably as an attached wad.

They stayed with the the slug very nicely but the cushion leg was a bit less skookum than the Gualandi cushion leg and they distorted so caused random flight. Some were quite good but others... well, not so good. Recovered slugs told the tale.

Anyway, Greg has laid the ground work there so that seems like an obvious thing to try. Basically and easy to make attached wad slug for smoothbore and attached or discarding wad slug for rifled gun.

I like it! Slugs I can cast and wads I can buy, nothing fancy or complicated.

In fact if it works out I would be in for a two cavity or better mould if it turns into a group buy.

Longbow

[Greg5278]

The Weight of my Solid is 678 grains. In Hollow Point it is 625 Grains.The Weight ranges from 475-600+ grains in Hollow Base, as the Plug is adjustable. I'm happy to give out my Loading Data, and Experiences. I have plenty Cast for You to try. Pm Me and We can work it out. No sense buying all of the Components for a few round test.
I would have to cast the Solids if You wanted to try Them. I only have 10 of them left.
I'm ready whenm You are.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[Greg5278]

Did You see the Post on Downrange Wads? The Poster Measured the Wad Thickness and reported back a Variation of up to .010" per Petal.
That is the point I've tried to make many Times, You can't get reliable accuracy with poor Components. Most Wads were never intended to be Precise or repeatable in Performance. They were intended to throw a large pattern with several hundred Shot. With Slugs We're looking for much more precise Placement. The Thin Petal often shears off in the Forcing Cone or start of the Rifling.The Slug is then engraved on one side, and the effect is bullet Yaw or in extreme cases tumbling. I have seem the Yaw on many Hollow Base slugs that did not use a Wad.

I'll have to see if I can get a few Pics of Rifled VS Smoothbore Targets showing the Oblong Holes. Solids have been much more predictable in my Guns.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[longbow]

Greg:

Since I am old fashioned and still using a smoothbore I am wondering what your experience are with wad slugs in smoothbore are. You have way more experience with slugs than most and certainly more than I do. And I know you wanted better accuracy than a smoothbore would deliver so went with rifled gun.

I understand the issue with wad petal thickness in rifled guns causing eccentricity but I have to think the effect is less severe in smoothbore. Off center is off center and sheared petals aren't going to be good any time but as long as the slug is launched straight from a smoothbore does a few thou off center make that much difference on a target since there would be no spin/eccentricity?

So far I have gotten equal accuracy with bore size round balls and round balls in shotcups out to 50 yards. I am still working on a good consistent slug in either hollow base or attached wad style and fins that loading into shotcups is easier and more convenient than making up wad columns for bore size slugs. However, if bore size is significantly more accurate in your experience then I would go that route. So far my slug accuracy is decent to mediocre with "good" slugs but I have not really noticed a big difference in accuracy between the two. If I had to choose i would say I have had generally somewhat better results using a shotcup. Neither has given better accuracy to 50 yards than round balls though so neither is "good enough" yet.

And that brings up another question for you ~ what do you consider decent and reasonably achievable accuracy at 100 yards from smoothbore?

I have launched enough lead that you would think I should have made more progress... but no, still struggling.

Longbow

[jmort]

"Did You see the Post on Downrange Wads?"

Yes. I use them almost exclusively.I am thinking about a solid with a top "band" around .675" +/- and a bottom band around .670" +/-
Not going to sweat the weight, but I think I can keep it around 550 +/-. A cross between these two with the RFN

Bullet design #65-435S detail

Weight as cast in wheel weight alloy: 435 grains
131580

Weight as cast in wheel weight alloy: 550 grains
131581

[Greg5278]

Why are You going with .675-.678" Diameter? I understand cost is a factor, but why skimp on the Wad it's still cheaper than a Sabot? CSD Wads aren't expensive, $15 for 250. I tried WAA12 and WAA12R wads, but they didn't work too well. I obtained samples and Miked them to see what Wad was most consistent before having a Mold Cut.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[longbow]

jmort:

I guess the group buy idea has died for now and if it were to go with solid I would be out as I shoot smoothbore (so far anyway).

I am with Greg on going groove size if solid for rifled gun but that is just my opinion. If I were going solid for a rifled gun I would go full groove diameter and an RNFP with flat shoulder to open the crimp ~ sort of a hybrid between the two you are showing. I like the "body of the TC and an RNFP with shoulder. That's just personal preference.

I will still be interested to follow the thread and see where you get to. I may yet buy a rifled gun.

Good luck and happy shooting!

Longbow