.38spl wadcutter brass?

[michaelcj]

I have not reloaded pistol loads before [although long history of reloading rifle cartridges, albeit single stage press].

As I do have .38/357 dies and bags of .38 brass fired over the years I thought I should consider making use of the brass and a 500ct box of 148g wadcutters that's been on the shelf for a couple of decades.

Question is: Is there really any importance in using the "wadcutter double canalure" brass when loading full wadcutters?

Of the 1000 or so cases I have only about 10% are the "double canalure" the rest have a single or none at all.

In the past I have just purchased reloads [usually HSM] or had them issued by the department for practice. Issued brass went back to the dept., purchased stayed at home.

Thanks
Mike

[tazman]

The 38 wadcutter brass was designed to let the boolit be seated full depth in the brass without distorting the boolit base.
The other brass may not allow this.
What I do is to crimp the wadcutter in a grease groove instead of the crimp groove. This moves the boolit far enough out of the case to allow for full power powder charges and avoids the issue of swaging the base of the boolit smaller.

[michaelcj]

Thanks Taz…..

[MtGun44]

Never had noticeable problems loading wadcutters in normal brass. Seems
to shoot well, but perhaps there is a bit of accy that I am leaving on the table.

I can at least verify that there are no significant issues using regular brass.

[KYCaster]

Some work....some don't.

If you have hollow base WC's you probably won't have an issue with any of your brass since the soft skirt will conform to the brass then expand in the barrel.

Harder boolits may cause the brass to bulge. You won't know till you try it......just depends on the internal dimensions of the brass.

BTW.....Federal uses only one canalure to identify their WC brass.

Jerry

[bedbugbilly]

All I use for my 38 spl. reloading is "range brass" so it's a combination of everything - from head stamps to WC or standard brass. I have a number of Lyman WC molds but the one I use the most is the 358-432 148 gr. I am just a "plinker" - not a competitive shooter so I'm not that fussy. The 358-432 has a crimp groove that leaves a portion of the boolit extending beyond the case mouth. They seem to shoot fine out of whatever casing I use and I'm shooting in about 9 different 38 spl. revolvers with various barrel lengths. All I do is TL them in Alox/Paste Wax and use a moderate crimp on them. I load over the traditional 2.7 - 2.8 gr. of Bulls Eye.

As long as you have plenty of the boolits on hand - you might sort your brass between WC brass and standard brass and load up a few in each casing - experiment with seating depth and just see how they shoot. You might be able to tell the difference and maybe not?

I've never reloaded a "store bought" boolit as I only shoot what I can cast - am pretty "low tech" and use "range lead" so it varies from batch to batch but I've never had an issue with leading in any of my revolvers. Try your boolits in the different casings you have and several seating depths and see what happens. As someone mentioned - they crimp in one of the lube grooves. I've done the same when i loaded some of mine in 38 spl casings (mixed) and I've seated them out quite a ways to shoot in my 357 Handi-Rifle because it has such a deep throat on it. They seemed to shoot out to that pretty much the same regardless of how deep they were seated so I just went back to using the crimp groove which allows the nose to stick out a little from the case mouth.

Have fun and enjoy - I doubt you'll have any problems at all and let us know what works best for you!

[michaelcj]

Thanks Jerry, that increases my percentage [Federal] by a bit…. The wadcutters I have are not hollow base so when I get around to reloading these there's bound to be some trial and error.
As I said in my OP I only have a single-stage press and don't imagine I'll ever invest in a progressive… That being said, I am imagining a certain level of "mind numbing" doing 38spl on the single stage…. but, waste not want not.
Mike

[Char-Gar]

Some work....some don't.

If you have hollow base WC's you probably won't have an issue with any of your brass since the soft skirt will conform to the brass then expand in the barrel.

Harder boolits may cause the brass to bulge. You won't know till you try it......just depends on the internal dimensions of the brass.

BTW.....Federal uses only one canalure to identify their WC brass.

Jerry

There are two basic purposes for the 38 Special wadcutter brass with longer than standard parallel sides.

1. To prevent crushing the fragile skirt of a deep seated hollow base wadcutter thus degrading the accuracy.

2. To provide uniform tension on the deep seated bullet and a uniform release of that tension when fired. This is an accuracy aid.

To answer the original question, no you don't have to use wadcutter brass, but accuracy will be degraded if you don't, more so with the HB bullet than the solid base bullet. Such loads will shoot plenty good enough for most people's use. For accurate target shooting where a small fraction of one inch at 25 or 50 yards might make the difference between winning and losing, yes it makes a difference.

[tazman]

What he said.^^^^^

[jonp]

Big difference between 1 and 2 canalures? I've seperated out my 38sp brass. Most have none, some have one and a few have two with a few double zigged and a few one ziggy line and one solid line.

[tazman]

Big difference between 1 and 2 canalures? I've seperated out my 38sp brass. Most have none, some have one and a few have two with a few double zigged and a few one ziggy line and one solid line.

Depends on the maker of the brass. They don't all use the same rules and mark their wadcutter brass the same way.
With single cannelure brass it depends on where the ring is located. Usually it is placed where the base of the bullet is expected to be since the ring is intended to decrease the chance of setback during firing of the other chambers. The farther away from the case mouth, the deeper the bullet was intended to be seated.
As you said, some makers don't have the cannelure on the brass at all, They are depending on crimp and case tension to hold the bullet in place.
It would be nice if they all were consistent, but that is not to be.
The only real way to get uniformity is to use a single brand of brass, all marked the same and preferably from the same lot. You would also weigh all the cases and only use the ones that are the same and you would keep track of how many times each case was fired. Uniforming flash holes and trim length is another part of the story.
Much of this only becomes important when you want to shrink your group that last fraction of an inch.
I'm not there yet, but I am getting closer.

[slughammer]

........a 500ct box of 148g wadcutters that's been on the shelf for a couple of decades............Of the 1000 or so cases I have only about 10% are the "double canalure" the rest have a single or none at all......

Just sort the brass. Find 50 or 100 cases that are the same. It shouldn't be a problem to get 15-20 reloads on the same 50 cases.

You never loaded pistol cartridges before and you're loading single stage. I don't see the point in planning to load more than 50 the first time around and 50-100 after that.

[michaelcj]

"On the money" there Slug!
Mike

[Char-Gar]

Sorting out wadcutter brass just by looking at it, of often tricky, as they don't look the same. Winchester, Western, Remington and Peters all use the double cannelure. Federal just ones one cannelure and Frontier (Hornaday) has none. There are some European wadcutter cases made by Focchi and others. When in doubt us a gauge inside the case to see how far down the parallel sides go before the taper starts. There is a very noticeable difference.

There remains the issue of an expander that reaches far enough into the case for the longer deep seated wadcutter bullet. At one time RCBS made a very long special expander that measures .3585 to protect the fragile hollow base skirt. They are no longer made and Customer Service seems unaware they ever were. Use one of these in a standard case and you will most certainly get a bulged case that most likely will not chamber in your handgun.

Here is pic of some RCBS expanders I have. They are from left to right, an older .357 from the days before the use of jacketed bullets, a .356 for jacketed bullets, a .357 I have modified with my lathe for a deeper reach and the aforementioned .3585 long special.

So you can see what these cases looked like in their original boxes, here is a group photo of my reserve stash of wadcutter brass. No, neither the cases or boxes are for sale.

[Char-Gar]

Just sort the brass. Find 50 or 100 cases that are the same. It shouldn't be a problem to get 15-20 reloads on the same 50 cases.

You never loaded pistol cartridges before and you're loading single stage. I don't see the point in planning to load more than 50 the first time around and 50-100 after that.

If you are looking for long case life, forget the popular carbide sizing die and hunt up an older steel die by RCBS, Lyman or Pacific in 38 Special.

The carbide dies use a carbide ring in the bottom of the case that sizes the entire case the same size, which is way to much in my opinion. The older dies there were cut by reamers, reduced the case neck where the bullet is held considerably more than the body of the case. A resized case in one of these dies has an almost bottle neck look to it. Not only are the cases worked less, but when coupled with a proper expander for cast bullets, expand the neck less as well. This produces long case life, as well as loaded rounds that don't rattle around in the charge holes near as much. The better the fit of the loaded round to the charge hole, the better the alignment of the bullet with the throat and that is an aid in accuracy as well.

The 38 Special round is a wonderful round and has been hand loaded for well over a century now. All the kinks were worked out and the codes broken on doing so generations before the carbide dies and pump handled progressive reloading machines came on the scene. I know that the current thinking is that the old ways just must be inferior, but that is not always true, particularly in the case of the 38 Specal target wadcutter loading.

As always before remonstrating with me, please read the disclaimer below.

[michaelcj]

My .38 dies are an "old" hand me down set of RCBS. I'm going to guess '50s or '60s vintage but clean/good shape/ in original green box with the "old?" style latch..
M

[Char-Gar]

My .38 dies are an "old" hand me down set of RCBS. I'm going to guess '50s or '60s vintage but clean/good shape/ in original green box with the "old?" style latch..
M

Those dies should serve you well. Starting in 1961 RCBS dies were marked (on top) with a two digit number code indicating production year. 68 equals 1968 and so on. Prior to 1961 RCBS used a letter date code with A being 1949, B being 1950 and so on.

[shtur]

If you have wad cutter brass, use it. If you don't, use what brass you have. The top finishers of the .38 revolver match at Camp Perry do not use wad cutter brass.

[tazman]

If you have wad cutter brass, use it. If you don't, use what brass you have. The top finishers of the .38 revolver match at Camp Perry do not use wad cutter brass.


Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. Is there any information on exactly what they do use?

[Dale53]

I have been reloading .38 Specials for a long, long time. Char-Gar's info is on point. However, having said that, I confess that I use mixed brass, and run solid base home cast wadcutters. I mostly use an original H&G #50 BB. From the Ransom Rest it will do under 1" at 25 yards. Back in the Sixties I had some lots of factory wadcutters that would do 5/8" at 25 yards. I was never able to quite match that with my home cast wadcutters but WAS able to get close.

Under 1" is good enough for me these days. I use my Dillon 550B's to run LOTs of ammo and spend my time shooting ("on my hind legs like a man" LOL). Ed Harris has some really good (and reliable) information on .38 reloading, too, on the Cast Bullet Association web site for those interested.

FWIW
Dale53

[Green Frog]

+! ^^ The only brass that I almost never sort is that for my 38 Spl (followed by its little brother, the 32 S&W Long.) Sorting just seems to be an extraneous extra step. YMMV, but I sincerely doubt it. ;)

Froggie

[Char-Gar]

If you have wad cutter brass, use it. If you don't, use what brass you have. The top finishers of the .38 revolver match at Camp Perry do not use wad cutter brass.

I very much question the accuracy of that. Gold medal match shooters don't use handloads, but high end factory loads. High end 38 Special match loads are put up in wadcutter brass.

[Char-Gar]

+! ^^ The only brass that I almost never sort is that for my 38 Spl (followed by its little brother, the 32 S&W Long.) Sorting just seems to be an extraneous extra step. YMMV, but I sincerely doubt it. ;)

Froggie

Where you want to go, determines the route you take to get there....Grasshopper. :-)

[Char-Gar]

I have been reloading .38 Specials for a long, long time. Char-Gar's info is on point. However, having said that, I confess that I use mixed brass, and run solid base home cast wadcutters. I mostly use an original H&G #50 BB. From the Ransom Rest it will do under 1" at 25 yards. Back in the Sixties I had some lots of factory wadcutters that would do 5/8" at 25 yards. I was never able to quite match that with my home cast wadcutters but WAS able to get close.

Under 1" is good enough for me these days. I use my Dillon 550B's to run LOTs of ammo and spend my time shooting ("on my hind legs like a man" LOL). Ed Harris has some really good (and reliable) information on .38 reloading, too, on the Cast Bullet Association web site for those interested.

FWIW
Dale53

My experience (and time frame) mirrors yours. I could get always close to factory match load accuracy, with my solid base wadcutter load, but never could quite match it. I don't know anybody who could and that is why we used factory match loads for competition, but our handloads for practice.

I am glad you mentioned Ed Harris. He is a big fan of the full charge wadcutter 38 Special and reports getting accuracy equal to factory loads with his handloads. He also uses wadcutter brass. I pay very close attention to anything he writes.

I strongly suspect it is the extra 150 - 200 fps of velocity with 3.5/Bulleye that tightens the groups. Our old 2.7/Bulleye (designed for light recoil) just lobbed the bullets into the target. We were willing to sacrifice some accuracy producing velocity to keep the light recoil and our beloved HB wadcutters.

Like others, I have used,and will probably do so again, standard 38 Special brass with solid base wadcutter, but most often I don't. For most purposes I can't tell the difference, but I don't kid myself that their is no difference, for I know better.

[michaelcj]

Those dies should serve you well. Starting in 1961 RCBS dies were marked (on top) with a two digit number code indicating production year. 68 equals 1968 and so on. Prior to 1961 RCBS used a letter date code with A being 1949, B being 1950 and so on.

So after reading this I decided to dig to the bottom of the drawer and see what I actually had:

Box Label: Part# 18237 Grp:B Desc: "Sizer Carb .38 SPEC/357 mag" "67"

Inside:
Sizer: "RCBS 38-357 CARBO. F.L. 76". [no decaping pin or neck button. just a through and through die with top internal threads but nothing to screw in there.]

De-Prime/ Neck Expander: No markings whatsoever… except "356" on the top of the depth adjustment "knob". Not a sizer, I.D. of the die body is .59".

Bullet Seater: "RCBS 38 SPEC SEAT 3 J " [ Does have a flat faced with about an 1/8" rim seating plug.. wad/ or semi wad?]

So a "frankenset" ??

Mike

[tazman]

Many of the early RCBS handgun dies were set up like that. More recently the sizing die has included the decapping pin instead of the expanding die having the decapping pin.
Your seating plug has a rim so it is for a semi-wadcutter. A full wadcutter plug would not have a rim.

[michaelcj]

Thanks Taz… So… I'd need a new seating die for full wadcutters? Or can I order a spare seating plug, although not sure how one would go about changing it out. The 1/4" stem/screw seems like it might be a pain to get started Backwards into the threads from in side the die. For that matter the one thats in there doesn't really want to screw all the way "through" once the slot is flush with the top of the die… and I don't want to force it…. I'll have to take a look on the RCBS site or give them a call and consider buying a new seating die.

So… size before de-priming. Re- Prime and Neck Expand??? Right?

Shoot…. probably makes sense to just order a new NON-Carbide set with a wadcutter seating plug and then I'm good to go either way.

Mike

[tazman]

You could do a couple of things. One is to grind the rim off the plug making it a full wadcutter plug. It would also work for most boolits that have a flat tip. The other is use some JBweld or similar compound to fill the plug and form to the front of the boolit you choose to use.
I am sure some one will chime in here with other and probably better ideas so you don't necessarily need to buy anything new.

Resize, then neck expand and deprime, then reprime, and drop in powder, then seat boolit.

I think that gets it.

[Char-Gar]

Thanks Taz… So… I'd need a new seating die for full wadcutters? Or can I order a spare seating plug, although not sure how one would go about changing it out. The 1/4" stem/screw seems like it might be a pain to get started Backwards into the threads from in side the die. For that matter the one thats in there doesn't really want to screw all the way "through" once the slot is flush with the top of the die… and I don't want to force it…. I'll have to take a look on the RCBS site or give them a call and consider buying a new seating die.

So… size before de-priming. Re- Prime and Neck Expand??? Right?

Shoot…. probably makes sense to just order a new NON-Carbide set with a wadcutter seating plug and then I'm good to go either way.

Mike

Getting the seating stem out if quite easy. Just use a small screw driver that will fit in the hole and screw it out. To replace it just put a little pressure on the stem from inside the die with some kind of tool and screw it back up.

For a long time now I have taken either a RN or SWC seating stem and turned it dead flat with the lathe. It will work for any bullet SWC, TC or WC that has a flat spot on the nose.

If you want me to do that on your stem, just remove it and send it to me with a post paid mailer and I will return it to you ASAP. It is about a 5 minute job and there is no charge.

Here is a pic of two I turned flat, one in 38/357 and the other a 45.

[michaelcj]

Thanks for the offer Char…. PM will be on the way shortly.
Mike

[GLL]

Charles:

PM to you with a request concerning your 0.3585" Long Special Expander.

Jerry

[rintinglen]

Sorting out wadcutter brass just by looking at it, of often tricky, as they don't look the same. Winchester, Western, Remington and Peters all use the double cannelure. Federal just ones one cannelure and Frontier (Hornaday) has none. There are some European wadcutter cases made by Focchi and others. When in doubt us a gauge inside the case to see how far down the parallel sides go before the taper starts. There is a very noticeable difference.

There remains the issue of an expander that reaches far enough into the case for the longer deep seated wadcutter bullet. At one time RCBS made a very long special expander that measures .3585 to protect the fragile hollow base skirt. They are no longer made and Customer Service seems unaware they ever were. Use one of these in a standard case and you will most certainly get a bulged case that most likely will not chamber in your handgun.

Here is pic of some RCBS expanders I have. They are from left to right, an older .357 from the days before the use of jacketed bullets, a .356 for jacketed bullets, a .357 I have modified with my lathe for a deeper reach and the aforementioned .3585 long special.

So you can see what these cases looked like in their original boxes, here is a group photo of my reserve stash of wadcutter brass. No, neither the cases or boxes are for sale.
Those green and white Remington boxes bring back some Happy memories. With those in my gun, I knew any 8 or 9 was solely the result of operator error. Which didn't stop 'em from finding their way onto my targets, but at least I knew who to blame.

[Char-Gar]

Those green and white Remington boxes bring back some Happy memories. With those in my gun, I knew any 8 or 9 was solely the result of operator error. Which didn't stop 'em from finding their way onto my targets, but at least I knew who to blame.

Yes, that is the way things should work. From day 1 of my reloading, my goal has been to produce ammo that will do better than I can shoot. Rifles and handguns to were selected to be more accurate than I. If, I don't hit what I shoot at, I want to know it is my fault and not the firearm or ammo.

I don't load plinking ammo, although I may plink with it. I consider every round I load to be "match grade". Some folks think I am anal retentive or just plain silly, but that is the way I do things.

[tazman]

Yes, that is the way things should work. From day 1 of my reloading, my goal has been to produce ammo that will do better than I can shoot. Rifles and handguns to were selected to be more accurate than I. If, I don't hit what I shoot at, I want to know it is my fault and not the firearm or ammo.

I don't load plinking ammo, although I may plink with it. I consider every round I load to be "match grade". Some folks think I am anal retentive or just plain silly, but that is the way I do things.

I don't know why they would. The way you do it, there is no question in your mind when you pick up a box of ammo that you picked up one that will shoot well.

[michaelcj]

Pretty cool place this is!!!!…… Got my seating stem back from Charles yesterday, "custom machined" for the price of a few stamps.
Thanks mate!!!