Pedersoli Sharps 1874 - Norma Brass

[bigbore52]

Hi, new to this forum so apologies if I stuff this up :veryconfu or post to the wrong area

I reload for a Pedersoli Sharps 1874 in 45/120 and am currently using new Norma brass.......I have found that I am getting almost 10% hang fires on the cases - irrespective of different branded primers tried in both magnum and large rifle primer....all the primers are struck and dented but those that go off mushroom which to me could indicate a possible head space issue. Of those that misfire, they have been dented and are still live and when the case is emptied, will go off if struck appropriately with other tools so it's not a primer issue.

Now the rifle is brand new and I have head spaced the chamber to a max rim size of 74 thou. There could be any number of reasons for the misfires at this stage but am slowly working through them starting first with the primers, and now onto the Norma cases themselves

The Norma cases all measure the rim thickness at between 59 and 61 thou but what I was inquiring has anyone else had any issues with Norma brass hang fires or experienced similar problems?

Have checked various publications on schematics for the 45/120 case there's a fair degree of difference printed, eg Donnelly shows the Bertram case rim thickness at 59 thou yet the Lyman reloading handbook list it at 70 thou - no mention of what brand case in that one

I am in contact with the dealer and Pedersoli and there are few things suggested by them we are yet to work through before we look at the rifle, but thought I would approach this forum to see if anyone else had experienced similar issues with Norma brass in this cal maybe and offer suggestions?

Thanks for any help/suggestions..............Lee

[Nobade]

You don't say what kind of gunpowder you are using. If it is black powder, something very strange is going on. If it is smokeless, depending on what type I would expect hangfires in a case that large without using dacron or inert fillers to hold the powder back against the primer.

-Nobade

[blackpowder man]

I had problems with harder primers in my pedersoli 1874 in.40-65. Switching to federal primers, particularly their bench rest primers solved my issues. Dixie gun works did send me a new firing pin spring because at first I thought that was the problem. Still have the new spring as a back-up.

[Skipper]

You might use a center punch to peen the rim and change it's dimension slightly. This will let you know if the case or the primer is the problem.

[EDG]

You might wind some fine electrical wire around the case head in front of the rim.
It will take up the space so your case cannot move and absorb the firing pin energy.

[bigbore52]

Thanks for those suggestions....yes apologies forgot to add, only using BP...FFg in it...100 gns under a felt wad and a Postell 535 gn projectile..Pedersoli state that you can only use BP in the Quigley model I have - it's stamped on the barrel...the load used pretty much fills the case - the accuracy of those that go bang is staggering first up.....at 50 yards with the standard open sights...first 5 shots fired from it grouped 2" so quite happy with it...just annoying that only some case don't go off....

Went out and measured the rim thicknesses on all the cases just now - both those that went off and those that didn't....the rims thicknesses varied between 59 to 70 thou over 50 cases and of those that failed to detonate, measured between 61 and 66 thou....other cases with thinner rims went of so has me completely bewildered now and looking at primers again???? not what I would have expected.

I have thought of turning up some brass annuli to slip over the rims and see if they work on the duds but haven't got round to it yet - as per EDG's suggestion above with the wire. Will do that at some stage as with Skippers peening suggestion but the difficulty on the Norma brass is that the outside lip is rounded much the same as the early Francotte 297/230 ammo and any peening may weaken the structure so will leave that for the moment thanks Skipper - the annuli should overcome that with the same result

Thankyou also for the primer suggestions - so far I've tried 4 different lots with two different manufacturers without any difference....so looks like I might have to raid the store and get an assortment of primers to test.........oh well, at least it gets me shooting down the range and that can't be a bad thing can it :)

Appreciate your help.

[kokomokid]

Is the firing pin shaving brass on any of the cases? Is the block smooth around the pin hole? Any burr will shave a little brass and it finds a home around the firing pin giving light strikes. Dont ask how I know. When I check rim thickness I use a shell holder and a feel gauge.

[montana_charlie]

The things I would check, or try:

- Inspect the firing pin, it's spring, and the recess they sit in for cleanliness or roughness.
- Apply a 'dry lube' to the transfer bar on all surfaces. I like Bullplate for this, applied lightly and blotted dry.
- Try to determine if the misfires occur when using the set trigger, or not.

- If misfires only occur when using the set trigger, examine the lock.
Blow it out real good with compressed air, then work it (slowly) through it's action while observing the fly.
See if it (the fly) appears to swing freely, or hang up (a little) at random times.

You can eliminate any problem caused by differing rim thickness by setting the bullet out to make firm contact with the lands.
If the bullet is sitting on a well-packed powder charge, that will hold the case head in contact with the breech face as the cartridge is fired.



Of those that misfire, they have been dented and are still live and when the case is emptied, will go off if struck appropriately with other tools so it's not a primer issue.
Do you ever recock the hammer and try that round again?

CM

[bigbore52]

Thanks Charlie and Kokomokid,

First thing I did before using was a thorough strip and clean with a blow out on the compressor then light lube on everything with light machine oil which doesn't leave any buildup. With that type of action you cannot close the breech without the hammer being in either cock or half cock due to it protruding and could set off a case when closing the breech if the hammer is down against the striker - there were no rough bits that I could see and there is proper travel on the hammer. I haven't stripped the action down proper yet

Being a double set trigger, that's all I've used so far but the pull is crisp and sharp with firm striking

Once I got a dud, I removed it then returned it into the chamber in a different rotation to see if that fixed it but still would not fire two or three different times I tried. I haven't chamber cast it as yet to see where the leed and lands start for bullet seating depth as would rather fix it to the rim first. With the Postell bullet I use, I seat them to cover the grease grooves and would be loath to extend it beyond that given the construction of that bullet but thanks for your suggestion

From what I could see, there are no scrape marks on any cases nor any brass shavings on anything...I made a go and no go gauge to check rim recess in chamber and that came in at 74 thou with free travel on the breech at that thickness, no binding at all but 75 thou did bind...at 74 thou everything is smooth and tight as you'd expect on a new rifle.

The next effort will be in making some brass spacer rings to put under the rims of those dud cases and then see it they detonate when fired in the action...that should identify the problem as head spacing but will also get heaps of different primers to try as well..

Thanks for your suggestion.......appreciate your help

[Dan Cash]

Are you getting your primers seated to the bottom of the primer pocket?

[Chill Wills]

There are some good ideas above.
In addition to them....... you might try the following.

Pick one of your thicker rim cases.
If you have a hand held priming tool, go outside to a safe place around the house and pop primers in the empty case (with out powder/bullet) and see if you still have the trouble.
Much easier than cobbling up a headspace fix on a bunch of cases just for reasons of a test. Assuming the 0.068- 0.070" rim cases all fire; The try the same test on a thinner rim case and see where the trouble starts.
That should give you some clues.

[Bent Ramrod]

Have you checked the firing pin protrusion from the face of the breech block? A shallowly dented primer that still fires will deepen the dent as the primer backs out of the shell against the firing pin. Then the internal pressure presses the shell back around the primer. When you look at the shells, the misfired ones have a shallow dent and the fired ones have a dent of "normal" depth.

If I recall, DeHaas recommended about 0.050" firing pin protrusion.

[bigbore52]

Thankyou gentlemen,

I made up some spacers this afternoon and tried them out on two cases that failed to fire recently - I pulled the projectiles and dumped the powder....checked the primer seating and they were both flush with the edge which to me indicated a proper seating.

I measured the rim thicknesses on them at 60 and 62 thou then tried them in the breech...they again failed to go off....then put the spacers on to take the rim thickness to near 74 thou and tried them in the chamber again...this time they went off which to me indicates head space issues as both primers mushroomed without any charge behind them. There was good detonation and no pin protrusion through the primers seating the case out that far. Thanks Bent ramrod, I'll look into that closer now and make some measurements - makes sense what you say

I haven't measured the pin protrusion from the breech face yet as do not have any specs to check it against so am waiting for the dealer to get in touch this week - just what he and Pedersoli suggest will remain to be seen but at least we've shed some light on the cause which I think narrows it down pretty well to where the problems may lie, it's pointing to certain areas now.

I thank you all for your advice and suggestions - there's certainly is a wealth of knowledge out there and I am indeed grateful....I will let you know what happens.....

[kokomokid]

At one time Meacham tool and die made a tool and die to increase head space and bring them all back equal on brass. I have never seen one only the pictures that were on his site. If I remember correctly it made like three indentations around the brass rim. Maybe not a top seller? The indentions were toward the chamber so it would work on Norma brass.

[Jim_P]

I have a Pedersoli in 45-70 and have not experienced the same. All my cases have been Starline. Primers were CCI.

Could be a new place to start?

I would also check the primer pocket depth. Too deep and you won't seat the anvil and the primer won't fire.

[MGySgt]

I have a Pedersoli 'Quigley' in 45/90. I use Star line brass and CCI primers and I have no miss fires. Oh by the way, I do use that new fangled powder!

[rr2241tx]

I know of another Pedersoli Sharps 74 that had FTF issues. A switch to thicker rimmed cases fixed the problem. His rim recess was right at 70 thousandths and the brass he had initially had rims averaging 63 thousandths. After he bought the thicker rimmed brass and sold his, the fix was relatively inexpensive. Half-cock is really the only safe position for the hammer when you move the lever. With the hammer down you'll break the firing pin and with the hammer at full cock it will sometimes (usually, always) jump the trigger and fire on closing. Having a Sharps discharge on closing is a startling experience.

[bigbore52]

Would like to thank you all for your comments and just an update...will be meeting the dealer this weekend - he has received some instructions from Pedersoli on several areas to try in the gun and I will be providing him with the 'duds' that failed to go bang. No doubt his tests will hopefully sort it our one way or another but so far I am in the dark as to where it will progress from there other than to say it's annoying

I also made several spacer rings to a thickness of 13 thou and when I placed them on the dud cases and chambered them, they went off so it looks suspiciously to me like it may be a combination of several factors, including rim constructions of the Norma cases as well as with the chamber not handling them together with the mushrooming of both heavy and no charge loads, that all suggests to me some head space issues

I haven't contacted Norma yet to see what's what but they deal through Winchester as their Agents in Australia so not sure who to contact there if it does work out to be the cases as the culprit

The firing pin protrusion is as per normal specs - around the 50 thou.

It's not a simple matter of using different brass here as there aren't too many manufacturers of 45/120 brass and living pretty rural, I don't have easy access to source them other than on-line or several hundred mile drive to the nearest gun shop. As mentioned it's not the whole batch of 100 Norma cases I purchased that won't work, so far of the 50 tried, only 7 appear not to work as is, but will with the spacers added - I know, that's not an acceptable number but I can certainly use the others without issue while this gets sorted...

The various primers I have tried make no difference to the 'dud rate' and surprisingly on measurement, all the primer recesses on the cases appear within spec, including the 'duds'. The primers all fit and seat to correct depth.....no, I don't think primers are the reason but will wait and see what happens with the tests the dealer wants to try.

Thanks again, will let you know what happens........Lee

[Kenny Wasserburger]

You mention you headspaced the chamber to 74 thou, is this the measurement or something you did yourself? If that is your rim depth, then there is your problem. If it came that way send it back. It is ***** factory mistake.

KW

[Jim_P]

Lee,

You are correct. Starline only produces up to a 45/100.

You sure you're shooting Dingos ;)

Jim

[bigbore52]

Just an update.

Spent few hours at the range yesterday with the dealer putting various tests into play with the rifle...one of those involved using a variety of different ammunition in 45/70 along with some 45/120's I had.

Granted it would have been better to have a variety of 45/120's to try but that's just not possible so 45/70's were used at the request of Pedersoli - those involved other brass manufacturers than Norma - interestingly these rims were noticeably thicker than the Norma brass but the end result being it didn't matter as there was still an unacceptable misfire rate with ALL the ammunition used.....

So it's pretty obvious now it's not just the brass but something within the rifle itself causing all the misfires and importantly the dealer agreed as was there first hand to see.

Heaps of photos and measurements were taken of different cases and I also took a chamber cast for him which will I am told will be given to Pedersoli shortly so at least there's some light at the end of the tunnel so to speak.

It won't happen overnight I know which is a pity as I really like using that gun, but at least we are on the same page and I have every confidence it will be sorted so I would like to thank you all for your suggestions and help in seeing it through. I am humbled at not only the wealth of information here but the way others freely give of their time and ideas to those seeking assistance.

It's now with the dealer and manufacturer to sort out....done my bit!

Thanks again...it's greatly appreciated

[Gunlaker]

Quite a while ago I owned a Pedersoli in .45-70 and it would have occasional misfires. I never did figure out why, but the rifle shot pretty well. I imagine that a good single shot gunsmith could get it figured out quickly. I'd guess either the firing pin protrusion is not enough, or a weak impact from drag on the firing pin, or something hanging it up a bit.

The Norma brass is good stuff. I use it in my .45-110's based on a recommendation from Kenny W. The rims do seem a bit thinner than other .45 cal brass, but in my C. Sharps and Shiloh .45-110's I've never had a misfire in quite a few rounds down range.

Hopefully you get it sorted out soon. It's a frustrating type of problem.

Chris.

[Jim_P]

Glad to see it's all getting sorted out to your liking. As I said I own the 45/70 Long Range 1874, and wouldn't trade it for love or money. Well, maybe love, but it would have to be someone very spectacular.

She would have to be purtier than the rifle... For sure!

[Hiwall55]

I had a Sharps do the same thing as yours using Norma brass. I finally got to the bottom of my problem, the primer pocket wasn't made right, it was tapered and wasn't letting the primer seat all the way to the bottom. after reaming out to make the pocket true no more misfires.

[bigbore52]

Kenny,

I chamber cast as well as made some go and no go gauges for it so you could say I am pretty confident of my measurements .....they showed the rim recess was cut to 0.0735" - my thinking to date is that this is where the main problem lies with the misfires together with perhaps the varying rim thicknesses of the Norma Brass - the rim appears cut uniformly but possibly too deep for some of these Norma cases?.

All the measurements and testing results together with the chamber cast are now with Pedersoli so will wait to see what they recommend.

Hiwall55 - I reamed the primer recesses on a few cases early on to see if that was an issue but it made no difference with the rate of misfires - bear in mind I also used different brands of ammunition later on and the problem remained which puts its straight back to the rifle, not the ammunition.

In my initial research I found a huge variance of the rim thicknesses with the Norma brass and believed this could have been the problem...by using other manufactured brass ruled out the Norma cases as the main culprit but even so, the quality is not as I would have expected from previous experience with Norma brass.

I want to get this sorted so I can get back to using it; aside from the accuracy, I quite like the feel and handle of this rifle....it's not my only smoke pole and it's definitely not the sort of beastie you would put a hundred rounds through at the range - without a fair degree of masochism that is, but it's become a part of my range day now and I miss it shooting it.

Even though I can still use it with the misfires, prefer not to until sorted...

[montana_charlie]

All the measurements and testing results together with the chamber cast are now with Pedersoli so will wait to see what they recommend.
If Pedersoli does not decide to replace your rifle, I (for one) will be surprised and disappointed.

However, if they do not replace it and you are left to deal with the problem on your own ... remember when you said this?

I have thought of turning up some brass annuli to slip over the rims and see if they work on the duds but haven't got round to it yet - as per EDG's suggestion above with the wire.

If one of those annuli could be turned from steel about 5 thousandths thick ...
And if said annuli could be pressed into your rim recess and soldered (Loctite-ed?) in position ...

It should change 'the mechanics' of the problem in a direction more favorable to you.

CM

[bigbore52]

Just a follow up with where it's all at so far.

The dealer/agent did some of his own testing on it with assorted ammunition he provided and identified the same problem I was having. It doesn't appear the Norma brass was the issue as originally thought, rather the rifle itself.

I am somewhat stoked at the reply from Pedersoli once he reported back. They acknowledged the problem I was having and without fuss, advised they will offer me to repair mine, full refund or replace it with a new one, whichever I wanted - all under warranty at no charge to me....that's much more than I anticipated and certainly great customer service

It won't be a quick turn around and means a wait of a few months for another to be made and sent out etc, but I am chuffed at the way it's been handled all along and pleased its been resolved so. I have not been advised of what the specific problem was - have my own opinion on that but irrespective, its been resolved and I'm happy.

Appreciate all your help and suggestions all along the way....

[rfd]

a bummer to hear about that rifle issue, bb. but heck, lotsa respect and admiration for pedersoli stepping up to the plate with their solid customer service and righteous resolution. i have a pair of pedi rifles, so .... good to know about their customer service. i sure hope you get that new rifle right quick!