Schmidt-Rubin 1889

[Scotty]

Now i have a smokeless military rifle that was made for cast boolits:-D. Has anyone else had luck finding a good boolit/powder for these fine old rifles...?


Thx,

Scotty,:-D

[Phil]

I have tried cast bullets in the 89 without any success but then I slugged the bore, throat, and neck. To begin with, I think the proper case length for the 89 is more on the order of 53mm and not 55mm. Then, the neck and throat are so big that you really need to shoot 8mm bullets if not bigger. I'll have to dig out the measurements and any other info I have on it and post it here. May be later tonight or tomorrow.

Cheers,

Phil

[Ricochet]

Very cool rifle!

I believe I've read that the original bullets were iron-capped lead, with something like a .295" body, but were paper patched to a much larger diameter. (As in "Fat Thirty" territory.) Slugging or casting the throat will tell you what will fit.

Looked around on http://swissrifles.com/ yet?

[Phil]

Found my old data. The neck diameter of the chamber is .351", and the throat diameter is .342". I didn't write down the groove diameter but it was in the .308" range and it seems to me that it was in fact .310". So the bigger you make the cast bullet the better off you're going to be. I'd stick with soft alloys and light charges. They shoot jacketed ok but I have too many other rifles that shoot cast well to spend time fooling around with things like this. Maybe after I retire at the end of the year. (:>)

Cheers,

Phil

[Hip's Ax]

Original ammo was indeed 7.5x53 or 54. 20:1 lead, steel capped .315" bullet paper patched up to .321". I have an 1889 and keep musing about a group buy mold that will throw the original bullet sans the steel cap. Bullet also has a step down in diameter near the base and a cupped base.

Pressure is less in this ammo than 7.5x55, on the order of 30/40 Krag pressures.

All of this is from memory, so be careful, do your homework before you load and shoot anything. Gunboards had some good discussion on this ammo as well as the Swiss rifles forum. "Parashooter" from various reloading and swiss rifle forums is the best source of info.

I have plans but they are not on the front burner, most don't bother shooting their 1889's much because other rifles are easier to get to shoot well. Expect 5" groups at 100 yards from your 1889.

One other thing, this rifle has 3 lands and grooves, you can't just slug them and read direct. It takes either a V anvil micrometer or a combination of direct slug reading (land to groove) plus seeing what the largest gage pin is that will slide through the bore and then some math to get the real groove diameter.

[Scotty]

Would a 8mm (.324") boolit work in the 89 or would that lead the bore?


Thx,

Scotty,:-D

[Hip's Ax]

I wouldn't do it, the bore in my 1889 is .308".

[Scotty]

Okay here is the first lot to try...:-P


Scotty,:-D

[Hip's Ax]

Scotty, forgive me but I have to ask. You did trim a bunch off of your 7.5x55 cases, right?

[runfiverun]

yeah they started with 53mm then to 54 mm for abit then went to 55 and retroed
some of the older to the 55, you really need to keep the pressures down on the
98 and 98-11's their bolt lugs are to the rear the 31's are to the front
so even though they look the same these are like a remington enfield and a mark-3

completely different worlds
rcbs dies are cut for the x55 and some of the others more closely resemble the x54
chamberings like they just took an argentine die and made it .308

[Scotty]

Yep, they are cut down to 53.5mm :-D

[Hip's Ax]

Great, thanks. Sometimes I think my toilet training was conducted at gun point. [smilie=1:

Let me know how they group, I'd love to be wrong on this one. :-D

Also where the point of impact is at 100 yards, mine shoots way high, like a foot.

[mag44uk]

Not tried it yet but I understand 200 gn 303 bullets are the way to go.
Regards,
Tony

[enfield]

[smilie=1:Scotty why didnt ya just ask, I got a sub 3" group including the flyer from 16gr 4227 and a 170gr lee .309 boolit (30-30). now use it to win the next shoot I dare ya. :twisted:

[Scotty]

I knew i had a 7.5 GP/90 in my cartridge collection....

Scotty,:-D

[Ricochet]

That's cool!

[Petr]

Okay here is the first lot to try...:-P


Scotty,:-D

Hy, could you tell me which type of powder you´ve used and how many for reloading of this 7,5 GP 90?

Thanks a lot.

[jonk]

I shot my 1889 at camp perry last year. Lee 200 gr GC lubed with Felix. More or less. There was some residual 50/50 in my die and sizer that I melted out and mixed with the Felix lube, but not enough to make a difference in appearence or texture. Grafs brass trimmed to 1889 length. 18 gr of surplus 4759.

Missed a medal by a few points but did quite passably- and hearing boom boom boom pop when I fired mine was priceless. :-)

So now... what to shoot this year? Hmm...

[danyboy]

Just bought a 1889 Schmidt Rubin and plan on reloading for it. What resizing die are you guys using for the 1889 ? Is it the 7.5 X 55 one ? If so, will fireformed win 284 cases work in it since 7.5 x 55 was originally made for berdan primers ?

[enfield]

I forgot, I just use the Lee dies , they work fine. 7.5x55 , 284 win brass and 4227 or 2400 powder.

[danyboy]

Thanks for the info, It sure helps.
Slugged the bore and some kind enough fellow reloader in the USA measured it with a V-anvil mic cause I couldn't get an exact measurement of this 3 groove slug with my ordinary vernier.
Result: bore is .296", groove is .3071". He had never seen such a tight bore. I got some Win 284 cases and will start fire reforming them .

[danyboy]

Tried to chamber a win 284 case but it wouldn't so I ran the case through my 7.5 x 55 Lee resizing die and it would chamber.
Then, did a chamber cast: chamber neck is .347" and there is a freebore at least ¾" to an inch long. case neck thickness is .014. Bore is .296" and groove is
.3071". I will try to get a .296" Lee type sizing die and paper patch bullets.

[ambergrifleman]

I Do believe the Original Powder in the 1889 Schmidt Rubin was Black Powder.

[danyboy]

No, the 1889 model GP90 cartridge was loaded with 30 grains of PC88, a semi-smokeless powder according to http://feulibre.forumactif.com/t410p15-schmidt-rubin-1889?hilight=Schmidt+Rubin , page 1. This site is a swiss gun forum. Bullet was 200-210 gr. paper patched bullet like the Vetterli rifle. BUllet was a heeled bullet.

[spqrzilla]

danyboy, as you have learned, using .284 Win cases for the 7.5 does not start with fire forming.

[danyboy]

spqrzilla,
The book 'Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges' by Ken Howell, page 491:
'7.5mm Schmidt Rubin ' : 'Fire-form .284 Winchester case with inert filler. Trim, Deburr.'
However, you can't get the case to chamber cause it's kind of fatter than the 7.5mm one.
Sometimes, books don't equal practice !
Thanks for your reply.

[Scotty]

Did a bit more work with the M89.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ReEKMrMMMc

:-P

[Wdog01]

Hello,
this year I tried to copy of original 7.5x53.5 GP1890 cartridge for 1889 Swiss rifle. I use 7.5x55 Schmidt-Rubin brass cases, cut to 2.126. Dies for 7.5x55, but with small adjustment - wider expanding rod. Plus cast bullet 235g. from LEE 8mm MAX moulds, with gas-check, lubricated and sized to .321 ... by my opinion correct, because the size .321 was overall diameter of original paper-patched cast bullet. My load is 28g. of ACC5774. Seating to OAL 3.039. The Vo speed is 1900fps, so cartridge E0 energy is exactly the same as original Swiss GP 1890 cartridge has (1970fps x 213g. bullet). Accuracy good. I case you decrease ACC5774 load to 24g. you achieve "target" load with v0 approx. 1700fps.
Loading from rifle magazine without problem, shooting too.
Bye Ales

[danyboy]

I'd like to be at the range to see you fire a .321" GC lubed cast bullet in a .296" bore size and .307-8" groove size bore. Must be quite the show if nothing disastrous happens...
Originally a .304" bullet was patched up to .321 which was swaged back down bu the double truncated chamber but shooting a .321" cast bullet in it, I am sceptic.

[Wdog01]

Why so pessimistic speech? Original GP90 cartridge was sized to .315 in lead and paper-patched to .321. This size was constructed with the 1889 rifle, so why not to copy it? Look at the picture, 55yd. distance, vo 1900 fps, no signs of any disaster :-)

55725

[Wdog01]

From left to right:
- original 7,5x55 case (2.165)
- case cut to 2.126
- LEE 8mm MAX bullet sized to .321, GC
- my GP90 cartridge, before the first formatting in the chamber (7,5x55 original angle of shoulders)
- final cartridge, just an example with paper patch, angle of shoulder formatted in the chamber to right one for 1889 rifle
Of course, I shoot .321 cast bullets without paper-patch (too much work)

55726

[danyboy]

Amazing. Thought original was a .304" patched to .321. bore is usuallu .296" and groove .308". Always thought not a good idea to shoot anything greater than .003" over groove size. Beats me. Sorry about the scepticism.

[madsenshooter]

Once the powder starts to burn, the bullet will swage down, especially considering all the grooves that bullet has. Ever read the story of fellow who rechambered his 6.5 Arisaka to 30-06? He was shooting .308 bullets through a .266 or so bore. Pressure will be higher than a load with a "normal" bullet, and softer alloys would probably be wise. Can't argue with the results though. Unless someone shoots a Trapdoor in the Vintage match, you'd be pretty sure of having the oldest rifle there. Might be some other exceptions, but I'm not into thinking right now.

[Wdog01]

Hello, in case of Swiss 1889 rifle is relatively easy way of making original cartridges copies, because for this rifle was originally invented and issued lead bullet cartridges, so we can do it by same way, use cast lead bullets with good results. Paper patched original bullets was .321 dia, so rifle chamber throat is wide enough for long .321 bullet and its connection to rifle .308 barrel could transform bullet.
About maximal oversizing of cast bullet: yes, I agree generally publicated oversize .002 or .003 is optimal from accuracy point of view, but this is not maximal value for pressure point of view. Look: in case you cast and size bullets in sizing press (I use RCBS LAM II), you normal way is to size-down cast bullets by .001 or .002 or .003. But do you look at any explosion of sizing die, press or its fat chamber? Not, you can size the bullets by .003 just by lightly force to short lever of sizing press. Based on this example I can place an opinion, that oversize of .003 is nothing important for pressure increasing. But, of course, this is not the answer to the question, what oversize is maximal usable and "healthy".
Yes, funny example of pressing .308 cast bullet to .266 barrel is extremal, but I can say I do not consider from .321 to .308 in Swiss 1889 rifle as extremal. And I use relatively hard alloy, 50/50 linotype/soft lead. But on the other hand my opinion is, that any heavy cast bullet from (lets say) .310 to .321 will be OK in this rifle.
Bye Ales.