ATF is going to reclassify M855/SS109 ammo as armor piercing....

[Russel Nash]

So in the future the sale of it will be illegal.

I think there is a comment period til like March 15th

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1717862_Just_released_notice______ATF_intends_to_r eclassify_and_ban_armor_piercing_ammo_including_M8 55.html

EDIT: the link leads you to a forum where posters can write any cuss words they want. If you want something more civil, try this from the NRA:

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150213/batfe-to-ban-common-ar-15-ammo

[dragon813gt]

Should probably warn people about the language in the link since this is posted in Our Town.

[Russel Nash]

Should probably warn people about the language in the link since this is posted in Our Town.

Added the NRA link

[Cmm_3940]

I had no intention of buying any more M855 until I saw this.


PSA has free shipping through Sunday.

[Love Life]

Bummer. Glad I know a guy who has enough.

[mold maker]

Psa ???????

[Love Life]

Palmetto. Wideners has the bullets in stock. Buy 5,000 of them for $490.00, sit on them awhile, and then flip them fo' Mo' money.

[DCP]

Still not a lot of 22lr out there. (I know I wont buy any new 22 firearms and no new shooters in time)
Now this

What's next 45acp 9mm 38 special (pick one)

You think there might be a conspiracy?

[fouronesix]

A lot of this may fall under the general heading of Trojan Horse. It's well worth staying up on and fighting. Some of the swaged and turned mono metal bullet manufacturers have been caught up in it.

Just add up all the signals- shipping, EPA regulated hazmat manufacturing (like lead, solvents, BP, etc.), bullets- whether designed for or not arbitrarily classified as "AP" after the fact, regulated storage, etc., etc. All one-way incremental cogs in a giant wheel with one underlying purpose!

[bhn22]

I wondered when this would happen.

[SeabeeMan]

I've been bouncing back and forth between ordering a few thousand SS109 bullets all morning. I really don't need a steel insert penetrator round, but I REALLY don't like not being to have a steel insert penetrator round. Kind of what I went through a few weeks back with the SigTac brace...

[Love Life]

Wideners sold out of 5,000 rd bulk packs since this morning.

[cheese1566]

I don't know. I wish I had some now, but realistically I would have stashed them away not willing to load and shoot them up.

I have lived this long without a stash of AP for my Garand (unless you count the 2 enblocs of AP and tracers from my military cartridge collection from high school!)

[TXGunNut]

I have a bit of this ammo, don't have much use for it but if this bit of news is true I'm still a bit annoyed. On the other hand, I'm surprised it hasn't already happened. AP rounds by some definitions are quite common and this rule could be used to justify banning many rifle rounds.

[cpileri]

Ban lead, ban steel, ban brass, ban jackets that are too thick, ban ban ban...oh, gee. looks like we banned all your ammo. We're so sorry.
Sincerely,
ATF

[DR Owl Creek]

I have a case of M855 gathering dust somewhere. To me, it's just a good source of reloadable brass, and not much else.

We all need to stand together, however, and SAY NO to this kind of BS. Call your CongressCritter and your U.S. Senator and tell them what you think about this. I have their phone numbers programed into my phone. They probably get really tired of hearing from me all the time, but I don't care. They asked for the job. Call all your friends too, and tell them to raise h*ll too.

Dave

[osteodoc08]

Armor piercing huh. I wonder what they'd classify a 405gr hunk o lead at almost 2000 FPS.....

i can can live without M855 ammo just fine, but I darn don't like being told/controlled on what I can and can't have out of principle itself.

[jonas302]

Sent a email letter though the link in the NRA article I have penetration tested that ammo on steel and found it to be relatively worthless as far as armor piercing goes I imagine it would be even weaker in a handgun

[Cmm_3940]

Steel is cheaper than lead. That's all the green tips are about. The so-called 'armor piercing' bit is just marketing. On the plus side, it's relatively inexpensive for factory ammo, and comes in good LC brass. I only use factory ammo to establish baseline accuracy for a rifle, factory vs. handloads, but I strenuously object to being told I can't buy it. I bought a can this morning because it can't hurt to have some stashed away, and to encourage the retailer to howl over their profits being threatened by not being able to sell it.

Some people thought I was a bit off when I bought a couple extra cases of 22lr (among other things) shortly after Obongo committed *cough* ...was sworn into office. I still have 22lr when others do not.

All this is supposedly because of AR-15 pistols now being a thing, and armor piercing handgun ammo being a no-no. I wonder how they classify a Desert Eagle loaded with 20BHN powder-coated goodness?

[Superfly]

THE big brother is not going to take your Guns


They will make it to hard or expensive to get or make ammo.

[blackthorn]

Why is it that your ATF makes rules (essentially "of law")? I would think new laws would be made by debated legislation.
Sorry couldn't resist---we have the same/similar problems with bureaucrats making law here in Canada! I suspect the government deliberately allows this to happen so they have some recourse to deniability and therefore avoid accountability!

[Houndog]

Wideners sold out of 5,000 rd bulk packs since this morning.

I'm good friends with the guy that owns Widener's and he said they sold 2 shipping containers of ss109 bullets in less than 3 hours! It's lookin like ol jugears is going to be assault weapon salesman of the year again! The good thing so far is the supply of primers, powder and regular bullets is gettin caught up. We should be able to buy most anything we want INCLUDING 22 rimfire very shortly. The LGS (The Gun Rack) got 3 skids of 22 rimfire today.

[Artful]

http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/.a/6a010535ce1cf6970c017c354738c0970b-800wi

[ZmanWakeForest]

Armor piercing huh. I wonder what they'd classify a 405gr hunk o lead at almost 2000 FPS.....

i can can live without M855 ammo just fine, but I darn don't like being told/controlled on what I can and can't have out of principle itself.

I agree completely!

[OptimusPanda]

Just like the 7n6 ban and ak74 pistols, I had wondered what took them so long. Seems to me if the ATF really followed it own rules the moment an AR pistol was manufactured this should have been next.

[Artful]

See that's the problem - "ATF rules" - it runs contrary to the will of the creators of the legislation.

The legislative history of the law clearly shows that members of Congress, including the sponsor of the law in the House, Rep. Mario Biaggi (D-N.Y.), a decorated former NYPD police officer, expressly did not want the law to restrict rifle-caliber bullets that happen to also be useable in handguns chambered to use rifle cartridges.

The BATFE is making up it's own meanings and it's not what was intended - importing russian ammo - yeah I get that stroke of Obama's pen same as Slick Willie did to all the cheap China ammo. But this is NOT imported ammo we are talking about it's a blank ban on all ammo that's M855/ss109 no matter where it was made.

[dragon813gt]

Instead of copying and pasting I will just post a link to a thread on another site. It's very well written and describes how weak the basis for this change is on a legal level. Also states what you can do about it.
http://rugerforum.net/showthread.php?t=121140

Take the time to write your own letter using the points mentioned in the linked posts. Form letters are almost always ignored. Keep it professional if you want this proposed change to not happen.

[MaryB]

Need a login there and I am on to many gun chats already

[MaryB]

Incremental gun ban is what it is, every inch we give they take a foot elsewhere. Time to say NO in great big letters and demand congress reign in the ATF and their out of control rules.

[2wheelDuke]

Looks like the panic has already hit full swing. I checked a few online shops, and all are reporting that they're out of M855 5.56 ammo.

[bhn22]

I'm seeing reports of panic buying as well. I expect it will likely spread to the more common 223/5.56 loads as well.

Maybe ARs will triple in value again!

ETA- Yup! Midways sold out now too. BOHICA!

[dragon813gt]

Maybe ARs will triple in value again!


I hope so. I bought a lot of lowers and have been waiting to sell them to some suckers.

[Cmm_3940]

BOHICA indeed.

[Hannibal]

I don't see the issue. Armor piercing 5.56? Really? I can think of much more devastating alternatives than this, but I guess it's like the 'Black Talons' thing a decade or more back, eh?
I guess I'd better be quiet before they start looking into things instead of responding to the current knee-jerk feel-good idea.

[GhostHawk]

What Superfly said x 3!

They would love to take your guns but figured out that if they tried to do that we would rise up and shoot them all down.

So, this instead. It is not the first shot, nor the last, just one of many salvo's incoming.

[garym1a2]

It's just another step in the battle to band all ammo and fireams. Ban China guns and ammo, now Russian ban. Soon ban types of US ammo. Next ban lead in ammo. Than ban solid copper bullets as they too will go thru vests easy.
See that's the problem - "ATF rules" - it runs contrary to the will of the creators of the legislation.

The legislative history of the law clearly shows that members of Congress, including the sponsor of the law in the House, Rep. Mario Biaggi (D-N.Y.), a decorated former NYPD police officer, expressly did not want the law to restrict rifle-caliber bullets that happen to also be useable in handguns chambered to use rifle cartridges.

The BATFE is making up it's own meanings and it's not what was intended - importing russian ammo - yeah I get that stroke of Obama's pen same as Slick Willie did to all the cheap China ammo. But this is NOT imported ammo we are talking about it's a blank ban on all ammo that's M855/ss109 no matter where it was made.

[Cmm_3940]

Don't tell the ATF, but I suspect that PC has some properties similar to PTFE. :popcorn:

[Tackleberry41]

Its funny M855 isnt even very good ammo. Was at a gun show this weekend, vendors had their signs out saying it was about to be banned, to justify the jump in price over better ammo. Friend said he was going to go buy some because he might not be able to get more. Okay have fun with that, Ill just buy cheaper better stuff. I still have a decent pile of SS109 pulled bullets he gave me I have been using up.

[ksfowler166]

Here is the link to a petition to stop the ban.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-batfe-banning-xm855-ammunition/XrvVh1cj

Also write your legislatures and the BATFE.

[Artful]

Here is the link to a petition to stop the ban.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-batfe-banning-xm855-ammunition/XrvVh1cj

Also write your legislatures and the BATFE.

Done

41,173 Signatures needed by March 16, 2015 to reach goal of 100,000

[bruce drake]

40K signatures left. I signed off on the petition even though I know the President will not change what he plans to do no matter the results of the petition. The key is force the BATFE to testify in front of Congress on this and why the think this is required. The President thinks he can make laws but he forgets that the Congress makes the laws. You would think a "Constitutional Lawyer" wouldn't forget about checks and balances.

[Smoke4320]

Next will be 300 Blackout .. All 30 CAl Black tips ect !!!

[mold maker]

40K signatures left. I signed off on the petition even though I know the President will not change what he plans to do no matter the results of the petition. The key is force the BATFE to testify in front of Congress on this and why the think this is required. The President thinks he can make laws but he forgets that the Congress makes the laws. You would think a "Constitutional Lawyer" wouldn't forget about checks and balances.

He is no better at "Constitutional Law", than being POTUS. Total failure. Why should anyone expect better?

[dakotashooter2]

I wonder if he has any clue what AP ammo even is. Probably assumes it is the only type of bullet that will penetrate steel (of any type). Probably doesn't realize or care, that almost any rifle bullet will penetrate mild steel...Guess he wants to stop the domestic assaults on armored military vehicles... Wait... there aren't any such assaults.....................



I'm sure Obummer thinks "the right to bear arms" means he can't restrict us from wearing short sleeve shirts.................

[bhn22]

Write your Representatives! Be informed, be polite! Here's a great video to help you write an informed letter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikyzhv894N0 (Jerry cracks me up)

[Steppapajon]

signatures needed by march 16, 2015 to reach goal of 100,00025706

[MaryB]

White house petitions are useless

[2wheelDuke]

White house petitions are useless

I agree, but only to a point. If the requisite number of "signatures" are reached, it'd make this much harder for the mainstream media to ignore. Sadly, that's about all it'd accomplish, because I doubt the king cares at all what we think.

[Gator 45/70]

We gave the Democraps a flogging in 2014

Lets remember this in 2016.

[Wis. Tom]

Yes the democrats did take a beating, but where did that get us? Obama, last week, stopped the pipeline, took over our internet, and proposed to ban alot of ammo. Not a bad week, for a so-called lame duck.

[MaryB]

You left out Boehner made a deal with Pelosi and sold us out on the DHS funding bill...

[TXGunNut]

I won't discuss AP properties of rifle ammo on an open forum. The definition of handgun AP ammo is pretty wide open and addresses a problem that is nonexistent, bad guys using AP ammo to defeat a LEO's body armour. Junk science, junk regulation at it's finest. We've had pistols chambered in rifle cartridges (including the .223) for decades; it's not about the ammo....or the gun.

[Artful]

I won't discuss AP properties of rifle ammo on an open forum. The definition of handgun AP ammo is pretty wide open and addresses a problem that is nonexistent, bad guys using AP ammo to defeat a LEO's body armour. Junk science, junk regulation at it's finest.

Only thing that law did was train bad guys to shoot LEO where they were not protected.

[TXGunNut]

Only thing that law did was train bad guys to shoot LEO where they were not protected.

Sorry, won't discuss body armor either. Your point is why.

[MaryB]

There are tons of you tube videos of body armor tests so it is not like it is top secret.

[beroen]

Breaking news [emoji35] http://m.townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761

[dragon813gt]

If you thought this wasn't going to happen you are a fool. The comment period was only for show. I don't agree w/ removing the exemption.

Wait until the AR10 platform is more popular. Someone will make a 30/06 pistol and there goes the exemption for that ammo.

[beroen]

If you thought this wasn't going to happen you are a fool. The comment period was only for show. I don't agree w/ removing the exemption.

Wait until the AR10 platform is more popular. Someone will make a 30/06 pistol and there goes the exemption for that ammo.
I don't know if the fool comment was directed at me or what..


But at this time the ATF has backed down it looks like they didn't want to become another Obama administration scandal statistic.

[Artful]

They ain't dropped nothing - just looking for an openning that's clear to slip it into our backs

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/03/10/atf-shelves-controversial-bullet-ban-proposal/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/03/10/atf-shelves-controversial-bullet-ban-proposal/)



The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is shelving a proposal to ban a popular but highly lethal type of bullet, amid opposition from gun-rights advocates and hundreds of members of Congress.

The agency said in a statement on Tuesday it would not seek to issue the final guidelines "at this time." The proposal pertained to M855 "green tip" ammunition, used in the AR-15 rifle, which regulators looked at banning because it can pierce police body armor.

The ATF said it would instead wait until Americans have finished commenting on the federal regulations and evaluate their comments and suggestions before "proceeding with any framework."

The statement follows 52 senators and 238 House members joining in opposition to any attempt the Obama administration might make to ban the ammo.

"This attack on the Second Amendment is wrong and should be overturned," said Rep. Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., who started the petition. "A clear, sizeable majority of the House agrees.”

Armor-piercing ammunition for handguns has been banned since 1986 as a way to protect police officers.

The agency also said the decision was based on the "overwhelming interest in this issue and the issues raised in the comments received.”

The ATF said it has received more than 80,000 public comments and that an overwhelming number were critical of the proposal.

The Justice Department will make a final decision when all of the comments are reviewed.

Gun rights groups have argued that the ammo ban would be a backdoor attempt to ban assault weapons.

The weapons would still work without the M855s but they would no longer be capable of firing body-armor piercing ammo.

What Road Apple Horse Huey - blatant propaganda